United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Judd

Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 2nd November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I also offer my support to these two amendments. It is a privilege to be able to follow two such wise speakers as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, and my noble friend Lord Empey. Implicit in their speeches was a recognition of the fact that the United Kingdom is on the verge of becoming the broken kingdom. The Government underestimate at their own potential peril just what dangers surround us. I beg my noble friend who will wind up this debate—for whom I have a genuine regard, as I have said many times before—to take seriously the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, and the noble Lord, Lord, Hain, all of whom, coming from different parts of the United Kingdom, speak with a tone of real concern and sorrow because they passionately believe in the UK, as do I, and they know it is in peril.

We have to be extremely careful. I will speak for a moment or two longer than I would otherwise have done. I too, like the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Hain, will not trouble the House in the next series of amendments because they rather overlap with these, and in many ways I would have liked them to have been grouped together so, like both noble Lords, I will speak as if they are.

My noble friend Lady Noakes was right to talk about our dealing with the United Kingdom. However, we have had 20 years or more of devolution and in the case of Northern Ireland considerably longer, although much more fractured from time to time. Therefore, we cannot behave as though ours were the only elected legislative body—of course, we in your Lordships’ House are in a unique position. We cannot behave as if there were just one Parliament; some of us may wish that there were but there is not. Therefore, to neglect what has been built up over the last 20 years would be sheer folly. We have to have a proper regard for the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Senedd and the Northern Ireland Assembly, and to make sure that in this new world where the United Kingdom is no longer part of the European Union, we pull together, work together, recognise what each constituent part brings to the United Kingdom and strive to ensure that it remains the United Kingdom.

I deeply regret the fact that we are rushing pell-mell towards 31 December. The crisis that has engulfed the United Kingdom over the last seven or eight months, unique and grave as it is, ought to have made the Prime Minister and his Government realise that there would have been real merit not in trying to undo Brexit—that has happened—but in trying to get the very best possible relationship and, therefore, taking more time. I deeply regret that, but, as they say, we are where we are. It is therefore tremendously important—utterly vital—that we go into the new year as a united kingdom, each nation complementing the other and, as a collective country, moving forward.

We have seen over the last few months, with the way devolution has operated in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, that the constituent parts of the kingdom have behaved differently with regard to Covid. I am not making any value judgment, but I would say that we have made our fair share of mistakes in this part of the United Kingdom. We have made some sweeping judgments, which we will be debating on Wednesday, and, in many things, other constituent parts of the United Kingdom have behaved perhaps a little more wisely than we have.

One point that has cropped up time after time in this very interesting debate is that we must command confidence. The prime duty of the United Kingdom Government here at Westminster is to command that confidence. I urge my noble friend the Minister to ensure that the bodies we are talking about tonight are able to command that confidence—that the office for the internal market does not become an office where dissension rules the day but where all the constituent members, from the constituent parts of our country, can recognise that they are complementary one to another, each with a contribution to make. It is therefore important that all four constituent parts are represented within this office by people in whom we can all trust. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, said that we really did have to be able to trust each other. He made a number of very valid points which I hope my noble friend the Minister will take on board.

I do not want to sound too much of a Jeremiah, but I have never felt more worried for the future of our country than as we enter 2021—for its continued existence as a united kingdom, for its prosperity, and for our ability to come out of this crisis in a way that gives us a new and bright future.

The Government must practice a degree of humility as they realise that they have not had all the answers right in these last few months. If they are to get them more right in the next few months, they must not behave as though they have a monopoly of wisdom— they have not.

[Lord Judd (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it is always interesting to hear the reflections of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and I have a tremendous amount of sympathy with a great deal of what he said. However, I think he must come to understand—if I may put it this bluntly—that we have moved on and we are perhaps at a stage now where the future strength of our four nations working together will have to be rooted in an understanding of their separate identities and democratic systems, which complement our own.

I happen to believe that the road we should be exploring far more often is that of a federal United Kingdom. I hope that does not hurt the noble Lord; I feel that that is how our people can become strongly united in the way forward. In some ways, the determination to leave the European community has made this more urgent and important than ever. Our success as four nations depends upon our mutual co-operation and our recognition of interdependence.

Our debate this afternoon has been on a theme to which we have returned several times during the passage of this Bill, and it is crucial. We must have a situation in which the peoples of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England feel a sense of ownership in what is being done, and a genuine sense that it is being done on their behalf rather than being dependent on a dominating lead from England, and finding ways of talking to them to try to meet their needs in the best way possible.

We simply have to make sure that there is common ownership of what is being done. That is why the amendment by my noble and respected friend Lady Hayter is so important and I am so glad to see it—although I am slightly intrigued by the groupings as I think it is closer to the perhaps more detailed Amendment 131 tabled by my noble friend Lord Stevenson. As we go forward, I am sure that we will fail if there is any feeling that there is not common ownership and agreement about the things that are being done. This will take time and effort because, as has already been said, it is not just an administrative matter but a trust-building matter. These amendments are desperately important, and I hope that the Government will take them seriously.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Lord Cormack and Lord Judd

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 28th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I am very glad to follow the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, because, not for the first time, he speaks a great deal of powerful good sense. We have to recognise that what is at stake here is the future of the United Kingdom as we now have it and not as we used to have it. As I said when I spoke briefly on Monday, I was not an advocate of Scottish devolution because I saw within it the seeds of disaster, but we have it. The fact that we have a Government in Scotland who are bent on independence adds a real danger and we must not play into the hands of those who would destroy the union.

It is all a question of getting the right balance. Far too often we have not got the right balance. I completely accept that the United Kingdom, which I want to see retained, has a Parliament and a Government which are clearly superior in political power to the devolved Administrations. Bearing in mind that one of those Administrations wishes to separate, I believe there is an enormous amount of good sense in what the noble Lord, Lord Hain, said. He talked about qualified majority voting within a council of Ministers drawn from the United Kingdom Government and the devolved Administrations. I beg my noble friend on the Front Bench to reflect on the wisdom of what the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, to whom the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, referred, said in very thoughtful, well-considered and powerful speeches.

It is clearly crucial that we consult within the four countries. It is clearly crucial that we recognise that one of the four countries has 80% of the population of the United Kingdom. It is clearly important that no tail wags the dog, but it is equally vital that we treat each other as equals and that Ministers meet and come to sensible decisions which are not seen as impositions. That is why I am so fundamentally opposed, as I always have been, to Henry VIII clauses. That Henry VIII should have been recruited in such large measure by the present Government is extremely unwise. To get immediate domination through a means that can only spawn long-term disaffection is not wise, and we need a Government who are able to practise wisdom at this crucial moment in our history.

We have left the European Union, we are going forward as a United Kingdom and we have got to achieve balance and symmetry and a long-term wisdom which does not lead to the replication of the sort of social division that was created in the 1880s, to which the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, just referred. History does not repeat itself, but it does—or should—teach us lessons and we should seek to derive wisdom from the knowledge of what has happened in the past. I beg my noble friend to consider what has been said in this debate, to reflect on the very wise words which we have had from the noble Lords, Lord German and Lord Liddle, the noble Lord, Lord Hain, in particular, and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, and let us try to come to an accommodation.

We need to come together in this country more than we have ever needed to. We must not dismiss opinions because they come from parties other than our own. I am not so starry-eyed as to think that we could have a national Government tomorrow, but we have to treat each other with a degree of respect. We have to recognise that it is just conceivably possible that the other side might have a few good views.

Cromwell was not a man for consensus, but he once said, in the predecessor of the other place: “Conceive it possible, in the bowels of Christ, that you may be mistaken.” My message to the Government this evening is: conceive it possible that you may not have got it quite right, and let us come together to help you to get it right.

[Lord Judd (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I declare an interest because I am half English and half Scottish, and proud of it. I am very close to my Scottish family. I have always feared that, in this House in particular, we have underestimated the dangers ahead had devolution not happened. The lessons of Ireland are there, and I believe that the peace and stability of our peoples across the islands of Ireland and Great Britain have been ensured by the process of devolution; I am convinced of that.

When my noble friend Lord Hain says he sometimes does not understand why Ministers do not accept the logic of a particular position that is taken, I think that he is failing to look at the driving force behind all that is happening. As I said in a debate on a previous amendment today, I believe that there is a driving force against everything that I think most of us in this House have believed was vital.

There is a world of difference between the concepts of “consult” and “consent”. What builds up the resentment of the Scottish people, for example—I am sure it is true for Northern Ireland and Wales as well—is the patronising assumption that we will consult the others. Those who emphasise the importance of mutuality in this debate are absolutely right. That means that we meet, in a sense, as equals, and we seek their consent to proposals that we may be making.

The amendment is vital. It is vital not just to this internal market Bill but to recommitting ourselves to peace-building. We always seem to react and try to deal with crises when they have overtaken us. In this case, we had the wisdom to look ahead and do things in time. We will need to reassert the whole process of peace-building, mutual consent and the recognition of people as people, wherever they are with their identity. This amendment is very important indeed.