Mesothelioma Bill [HL]
Lord Freud Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for their amendments. As I understand it, their purpose is to set out the exact tariff to be used by the scheme and to require that the growth tariff would be uprated annually in line with the consumer prices index. I support the intention of the amendments, although I do not think that they are necessary. I shall explain why.
I put on the record that it is our intention to uprate the scheme payments annually in line with the CPI. If we were to put that in the Bill, we would have no flexibility to uprate by any other amount in future. For instance, we have given an undertaking to review the scheme’s operation and the rates of payment at the end of the smoothing period. Obviously I cannot pre-empt the findings of the future review, but were any review to show that a gap had developed between average civil damages and scheme payments, we would want to address that. If we were required by the Bill to uprate only in line with the CPI, we would be unable to do so.
Regarding the proposed tariff to be included in the Bill, I confirm that we have published an ad hoc analytical publication that sets out the same figures that are included in the table attached to the amendment. These are the figures that we will be using as a baseline when we calculate the percentage level of damages. If we included the table as a schedule, as the amendment proposes, we would need either annual primary legislation or a regulation-making power to make any change to the schedule. As I say, I am happy to go on record to say that the figures contained in the report that we have published will be used when we calculate the amounts that individuals will receive. We will publish in regulations the amounts that people will receive from the scheme.
I hope that I have covered these issues in adequate detail and have put the position on the record without the need for these amendments, which I understand were intended to tease out these issues. I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I thank the Minister for his reply. It dealt satisfactorily with the purpose of the amendment, which I beg leave to withdraw.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, we have Amendments 25 and 29 in this group and we support Amendments 17 and 30 in the name of my noble friend Lord Howarth, although there is some overlap between the two sets of amendments. I will be brief as I believe we are pushing at an open door from what the Minister told us earlier today. Amendment 25 calls for the establishment of an oversight committee to monitor, review and report to the Secretary of State on the overall arrangements touched on by this legislation. It would undertake this task in relation not only to the scheme and the technical committee but to the tracing office and the electronic information gateway. They fit together, and we know that the insurance industry sees them as an integrated package.
The idea of an oversight committee was originally prompted by concerns over the extent to which the insurance industry may be engaged in all of this, possibly as a scheme administrator—although we welcome the news announced earlier today about the open competition—and certainly on the technical committee, running the tracing office and devising the portal. An oversight committee properly constituted would provide a level of reassurance for those whom the scheme should benefit and would be a counterweight to the level of engagement of a powerful industry with clear financial interests in how it all works, as my noble friend Lord Howarth so powerfully demonstrated. That is why we believe that the oversight committee should include representatives of asbestos victims support groups and the trade unions which have supported them, with an independent chair. Effective oversight would, we suggest, help the hard-pressed DWP resources, and an annual report from the committee could be incorporated with an annual report to Parliament by the Minister.
In Committee and in meetings thereafter, the Minister has expressed support for an oversight committee. We heard it again today and I know that he has considered various options. While disappointed not to see a specific amendment from the Government today, we hope for an assurance that they will introduce an amendment when the Bill passes to the House of Commons. I was not quite sure that it was clear enough in the noble Lord’s opening statement, so I hope he will clarify matters. It would be good if that assurance spelt out at least the bare bones of what is intended.
Amendment 29 is a return to the issue of support for sufferers of other asbestos and long-latency diseases. The payment scheme in this Bill relates to those diagnosed with diffuse mesothelioma. It therefore excludes other asbestos-related diseases such as asbestos-related lung cancer and asbestosis. It also includes other work-related, non-asbestos diseases such as pneumoconiosis. The DWP’s June 2013 analysis quotes the Health and Safety Executive data on industrial diseases, which has an annual estimate of sufferers of asbestos-related diseases of some 3,500—that excludes those suffering from mesothelioma—and of non-asbestos-related industrial diseases of some 4,200. Many of these will face the same problem in identifying a negligent employer or an employer liability insurer. The DWP’s June note acknowledges that many of the diseases covered do not share the same characteristics as mesothelioma, and that their severity and progression may vary, depending on the heaviness of exposure to asbestos.
It also highlights the fact that, for example, only a small proportion of asbestos-related lung cancers are compensated through government schemes, because of the range of different causes of lung cancer that mask an asbestos cause. Notwithstanding this, and perhaps somewhat strangely, in computing the effect of extending the scheme, it has been assumed in the data that the same proportion of those with diffuse mesothelioma who can access the scheme proposed by the Bill will be able to access an extended scheme, that the same level of scheme payment will be received, and that the same amount of benefit will be recovered. These are fairly broad-brush assumptions, to say the least. In resisting this amendment, the Minister will doubtless point to the costs of bringing forward an extension of the scheme. On the basis of their estimates over a 10-year period, they suggest that there will be 5,100 successful applicants for other asbestos-related diseases and 6,100 with non-asbestos work-related diseases. There will be additional levy on insurers of £478 million and £564 million respectively.
At face value, these figures are shocking. It is not so much the amounts as the suggestion that over the 10-year period some 11,200 people will miss out. By how much will depend on benefit recovery arrangements, but they could miss out to the tune of £1 billion. If the concentration were just on the other asbestos-related diseases, not expanding the scheme will deny 5,100 people, who will miss out just because an employer has gone out of business or cannot be located and a relevant insurer cannot be established.
The amendment requires the Secretary of State to bring forward proposals within a year to establish other schemes to cover these other diseases. We have been clear that we do not want the pursuit of broader coverage to hold up the scheme for diffuse mesothelioma, and there is no reason why acceptance of the amendment should cause this to happen. It is accepted that it will be difficult to graft onto the mesothelioma scheme the tariff approach, given the varying degrees of suffering that some of the other diseases entail, and that there may be convoluted issues around causation. Therefore, while continuing to acknowledge the merits of the mesothelioma scheme, we should no longer look aside from those people—many thousands on the Government’s own figures—who face terrible suffering because of the negligence or breach of statutory duty of an employer. This is all the more important where access to the state lump sum and social security support is more difficult, as it is for some.
The Minister has come thus far and we have supported and congratulated him on doing so. Indeed, he has expressed sympathy for a broader scheme. Accepting the thrust of these amendments would add to that journey, which I beg him to undertake. If he cannot, he will of course be aware that the campaigns will go on.
Lord Freud
My Lords, it would be most convenient to deal with these amendments in their original order. If I may, I will start with the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, on the scheme administrator, and then turn to the two amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, which relate to an oversight committee and future reports on further schemes. I will then turn to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, on annual performance.
Amendment 17 is intended to make certain that the body chosen to administer the scheme is able to operate in a wholly objective and unbiased manner. I know that there has been concern among noble Lords about the insurance industry’s involvement with this scheme, especially its administration. I agree that it is paramount that the administrators of a scheme that is intended to help its applicants must be able to do so in a fair way. I am confident that the necessary safeguards are in place to ensure this without the need for an amendment on the matter.
First, I remind noble Lords of the commercial procurement strategy that I spoke about earlier. The scheme administrator will be chosen through an open procurement competition that will be launched in time to meet our aim of taking the first applications in April 2014 and making payments next July. Members of the insurance industry will be allowed to tender, as will the shadow body created by the ABI. Legal specialists may also tender. The body will be chosen through this exercise according to our commercial criteria, which include being able to administer the scheme as set out by the scheme rules.
Secondly, I refer noble Lords to the scheme rules, which set out clearly every aspect of the scheme administration and specify how the administrator may or may not act. Compliance with the scheme rules will form an integral part of scheme arrangements.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
Before my noble friend withdraws the amendment, perhaps I may clarify one point with the Minister. I was slightly less reassured about the oversight committee than I expected to be, partly because it looks as though it might be a fragmented effort, given the ELTO structure. The noble Lord said that his preference was for a non-legislative solution, and we do not have a problem with that. However, will a conclusion be reached as to whether the non-legislative solution will be found by the time the alternative of a legislative solution passes in the Commons? It would be a pity if we had not concluded on this and decided in due course that we needed a legislative solution and the Bill had completed its passage.
Lord Freud
My Lords, my aim is to know where we are with the structure over this Recess. I think that I owe the noble Lord a letter at the end of the Recess setting out where we have got to on that so that he will be able to talk to his colleagues in the other place. If he thinks that a gap is developing, that is a way for me to handle that uncertainty.
Lord Howarth of Newport
In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Freud
Lord Freud
This is a minor amendment which removes an erroneous reference to Section 281(5) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003. The appropriate transitional provision which relates to the offence in Clause 9 of this Bill is Section 154(1) of that Act.
Lord Freud
Lord Freud
The amendments in this group concern the technical committee that will be established to make decisions regarding disputes about whether an insurer provided employer’s liability insurance to a particular employer at a particular time. The amendments do two things: first, they make clearer the definition of “potential insurance claimant”—in other words, those who could be in dispute with an insurer about cover and whose disputes might come to the technical committee for a decision—and, secondly, they remove the power of the Secretary of State to expand that definition in the future.
Currently, the definition of a potential insurance claimant includes those who allege that an employer is liable for damages and an employer or anyone else who is alleged to be liable for damages. Amendment 26 removes the phrase “or anyone else”. This phrase is not deemed necessary because we are not able to identify any further parties that could come to the committee, other than those already listed.
Amendment 27 removes Clause 15(10), which gives the Secretary of State powers to make regulations to amend the definition of potential insurance claimant. This could include extending the scope of the technical committee to cases concerning other diseases or bodily injury. Amendment 32 makes a consequential amendment to Clause 17 to reflect the fact that, with the removal of Clause 15(10), there will be no regulations under Clause 15.
The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, in its report, recommended the removal of the power to amend the definition of “potential insurance claimant” unless its purposes could be more precisely specified. Having considered the points made by the DPRRC about this power, we are persuaded that these amendments are necessary. Clause 15 as it stands potentially broadens the scope of the Bill in a way that is not consistent with the focused nature of the rest of the Bill. Furthermore, as we are not able to specify the exact circumstances in which the Secretary of State might choose to expand the classes of people about to bring disputes before the technical committee, we agree that such a broad regulation-making power is inappropriate.
I hope that noble Lords can support the wish to make the Bill as robust as possible, and support the removal of unnecessary regulation-making powers. I beg to move.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, we have no difficulty in accepting these amendments. As far as Amendment 27 is concerned, we are a little unhappy to see this disappear but accept that, without broader schemes evolved and being brought forward, it does not make particular sense.
So far as Amendment 26 is concerned and the deletion of “or anyone else”, can the Minister just remind us who that was intended to cover or who the drafters originally thought ought to be covered?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I think that is the most difficult question I have had in the past three years. I simply do not know what was in the draftsman’s mind. I think it was a standard reflex to capture anything that may not have been in the list. When we had the chance to go over it in more detail, we really could not think of anything else so it became redundant. I think that is the explanation and I am deeply impressed by the question.
Lord Freud
Lord Freud
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his amendment and assure him that I am sympathetic to his desire to provide support for current and retired members of the Armed Forces. As he would expect, however, I must reject the amendment.
This Bill’s remit is strictly mesothelioma, which was a point made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. Nevertheless, I hope that it will continue to draw into the spotlight the issues highlighted by the amendment and that the momentum from this Bill will assist my noble friend as he continues to advocate on behalf of service personnel.
I remind my noble friend of the distinctive characteristics of mesothelioma that allow for a relatively straightforward and quick scheme to be established, such as its undeniable link to asbestos exposure, the lack of co-causality with other factors such as smoking, and the very short time between diagnosis of the symptoms and death. These unique elements of diffuse mesothelioma allow us to establish a scheme that will make payments quickly and efficiently.
It is important to note, too, that the mesothelioma payment scheme proposed in the Bill addresses a market failure related to employer’s liability insurance. Armed Forces personnel are not normally covered by employer’s liability insurance due to the Government self-indemnifying. It is therefore not appropriate for insurers to be required to fund payments for individuals for whom they have never received premiums. My noble friend has already indicated that he will withdraw the amendment, and I urge him to do so.
Lord Freud
Lord Freud
Social Security, Child Support, Vaccine Damage and Other Payments (Decisions and Appeals) (Amendment) Regulations 2013
Lord Freud Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Freud
That the draft regulations laid before the House on 11 June be approved.
Relevant documents: 5th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 8 July.
Social Security, Child Support, Vaccine Damage and Other Payments (Decisions and Appeals) (Amendment) Regulations 2013
Lord Freud Excerpts(10 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Freud
That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Social Security, Child Support, Vaccine Damage and Other Payments (Decisions and Appeals) (Amendment) Regulations 2013.
Relevant document: 5th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, I am pleased to introduce this instrument, which was laid before the House on 13 June 2013. I am satisfied that it is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights.
The regulations provide for the introduction of the mandatory reconsideration process for vaccine damage payments, child support maintenance payments, mesothelioma lump sum payments and all social security benefits, save for universal credit and personal independence payment, which have been subject to mandatory reconsideration since April this year.
Currently, a claimant can ask for a decision to be reconsidered by a decision-maker, which may result in a revised decision. In practice, however, many people do not do so and instead make an appeal from the outset. This is more costly for the taxpayer, time-consuming, stressful for claimants and their families, and for a significant number of appellants unnecessary. I say this because the reason that the vast majority of decisions are overturned on appeal is because of new evidence presented at the tribunal.
I hope that noble Lords will agree that we need a process that enables this evidence to be seen or heard by the decision-maker at the earliest opportunity. It is accepted that this does not mean that all decisions will be changed and that appeals will be unnecessary, but we believe we should have a process that at least promotes this possibility. Mandatory reconsideration does just that.
Mandatory reconsideration will mean that applying for a revision will become a necessary step in the decision-making process before claimants decide whether they wish to appeal. Importantly, the intention is that another DWP decision-maker will review the original decision, requesting extra information or evidence as required via a telephone discussion, and, if appropriate, correct the decision. When this happens, there is no need for an appeal—an outcome that is better for the individual and better for the department.
I assure noble Lords that claimants will of course be able to appeal to Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service if they still disagree with the decision. The means of doing this will be set out in a letter detailing the outcome of the reconsideration and the reasons for it. We would hope that because of the robust nature of the reconsideration and the improved communication, this new process will result either in decisions being changed or, where this does not happen, claimants deciding that they do not need to pursue an appeal.
We undertook a formal consultation before we introduced mandatory reconsideration for universal credit and personal independence payment. A number of respondents suggested that there should be a time limit on the reconsideration process and there have been further representations about this. While we understand the concerns, we are not making any statutory provision for it. Some cases are more complex and require additional time—particularly, for example, cases where extra medical evidence may need to be sought. Others will be completed in days. It will be a case of considering each case on its merits.
However, we are considering the scope for internal performance targets. While these will reflect the requirement to deal with applications quickly, it will not be at the expense of quality. The process will fail if clearance times become the driver. We will be back with unnecessary appeals and all that that entails. It is a balancing act which we must get right. We will monitor developments closely and adjust accordingly. We may in due course learn from the experience of UC and PIP but at this time we have had so few requests for mandatory reconsideration that we have not as yet learnt anything which will inform our future handling of these applications. We will of course continue to monitor the situation ahead of October.
I turn now to the payment of benefit pending reconsideration and appeal. This has caused a lot of concern, particularly in relation to employment and support allowance. First, I want to make the point that there is no change from the current policy. If someone is refused benefit under the existing provisions and they request a revision of that decision, benefit will not be paid pending the consideration of that request. It will be the same for mandatory reconsideration. Secondly, there is no change in relation to appeals. If someone appeals a decision under the existing provisions, no benefit is paid pending the appeal being heard—save for ESA, which I will come to. This must be right. It would be perverse to pay benefit in circumstances where the Secretary of State has established that there is no entitlement to benefit.
I turn now to ESA. At the moment, if someone appeals a refusal of ESA, it can continue to be paid pending the appeal being heard. This is not changing. What is changing is that there can be no appeal until there has been a mandatory reconsideration. There could therefore be a gap in payment. However, during that period—and I repeat my message that applications will be dealt with quickly so that this is kept to a minimum—the claimant could claim jobseeker’s allowance or universal credit. In other words, alternative sources of funds are available. The claimant may choose to wait for the outcome of his application and, if necessary, appeal and be paid ESA at that point. It is accepted that the move from stopping ESA to claiming and being paid jobseeker’s allowance will not happen overnight, but provided that the claimant does not delay in making his claim, the wait for his first payment of jobseeker’s allowance should be short.
Finally, another change to mention linked to the introduction of mandatory reconsideration is that all appeals will be made directly to HMCTS and not as now to this department. This change brings the DWP in line with other departments’ appeals processes. This is a positive move as it will allow HMCTS to book hearing dates more quickly than is possible currently. The department believes that the regulations will result in a clearer, escalating dispute process that will deliver a fair and efficient system for people who dispute a decision. I commend this statutory instrument to the Committee.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of these regulations, which will extend the provision of mandatory reconsideration to a range of benefits and payments administered by the DWP. I also thank the Minister for clarifying which benefits the regulations will apply to—I understood him to say that they would apply to all benefits administered by the DWP with the exception of universal credit and PIP. When he comes to respond, can the Minister clarify the way in which these regulations will apply specifically to JSA and ESA? I had thought that they were in some part addressed by earlier regulations. It is possible that only the direct lodgement elements of JSA and ESA are affected by these regulations, the commencement having been done by the previous set. Perhaps the Minister could clarify that when he comes to respond.
Lord Freud
I thank the noble Baroness for responding with her customary detailed and forensic approach to this. She has raised a number of important issues, which gives me an opportunity to set out the Government’s thinking a little further. I can assure the noble Baroness that we will be closely monitoring the new process and its impact on claimants and appeals during the early stages of its implementation. Clearly, it is a key change and we must get it right. I will deal with as many of the specific questions as I can and turn to the printer to answer the others.
The noble Baroness asked, first, to what these regulations apply. Earlier regulations dealt with the contributory JSA and ESA—in practice we have taken that apart—which is the new ESA and JSA element. These regulations apply to the legacy versions of income-based ESA and JSA. The two income-based benefits will be gradually replaced by universal credit.
On the question of conditionality, we would see modified conditionality for a person requesting mandatory consideration—that is, conditionality that would be adjusted for the fact that the person was in that position. This is the current position and, in practice, there will be no change on that basis.
On the publication of data, the issue is that the data effectively will not meet the standards for publication, which, as the noble Baroness knows, are pretty strict. That means that they will not be publishable because the collected data will not be validated. That is the issue. A validation system for this would be costly. Therefore, we have no plans for publication, although we will look at how we can get more information out. We are looking at how we monitor the process in the early period to make sure in particular that we get the timings right and that appropriate information is made available.
On the question of late application for reconsideration, the decision-maker is in a position to extend the time to apply if the claimant has good reason for not having applied within the deadline, which is one month. However, there is an absolute deadline of 13 months that the decision-maker cannot go beyond.
I think that I have answered the bulk of the questions, but there are a few more on which I will write to the noble Baroness to make our position clear. On that basis, I commend these regulations to the Committee.
Food: Food Banks
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Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the criteria for the issuing of food vouchers by Jobcentre Plus branches for use at food banks.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, Jobcentre Plus offices do not issue food vouchers. Some Jobcentre Plus offices have an agreement with their local food bank for referrals, but some simply signpost claimants to a variety of available local provision, including by local authorities, depending on their immediate needs. We gave Jobcentre Plus district managers the freedom to make local links with food banks.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his reply, but does he agree that because the provision of food banks by major retailers is driven down by the Courtauld agreement, whereby retailers have very few food surpluses, the signposting by job centres to food banks will not be a way of providing food to those in emergency need? Will he ensure that his department monitors the referral and re-referral of signposting, so that by the time universal credit, which I support, is introduced, his department will have a full picture of those in food need and proper account will be taken of it?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I must emphasise to my noble friend that food banks are absolutely not part of our welfare system, in which we have other means of supporting people. There is local provision, and following the devolution of part of the Social Fund to local authorities, local authorities are now responsible for setting up local welfare provision. To the extent that they are interested in using third-sector groups, including food banks, that is entirely up to them.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, April this year saw the demise of the discretionary Social Fund and the passing of responsibilities to local authorities. We know that funding for local authorities was not ring-fenced and we learnt last week of a further 10% cut in their budgets. Does the Minister not accept that this, taken together with harsher benefit sanctions regimes and a longer wait for benefits, will mean that the use of food banks will only increase? Despite what he said, is it not a fact that under this Government food banks are looking to be a permanent part of the welfare provision of this country?
Lord Freud
My Lords, there is actually no evidence as to whether the use of food banks is supply led or demand led. The provision of food-bank support has grown from provision to 70,000 individuals two years ago to 347,000. All that predates the reforms. As I say, there is no evidence of a causal link.
Baroness O'Cathain
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there is a lot of mythology about food banks? This movement was started by the Christian churches—people reaching out to people who are not necessarily long-term unemployed but who have found themselves in a position through no fault of their own. There are abused women who have been given local flats by housing associations but who still do not have money until their benefits come through, and this is where groups of people, operating through the churches —it started in Salisbury—can do so much good. One of the benefits of them for people like me is to make sure that we do something for our fellow men. Can my noble friend confirm that this is nothing at all to do with the welfare system and is pure charity?
Lord Freud
My Lords, yes, local provision that reflects the requirements of local areas is absolutely right. Charitable provision is to be admired and supported.
The Lord Bishop of Truro
Are the Government prepared to concede that there may be a link between benefit delays, errors and sanctions and the growing number of people using food banks? If so, what action is planned to address this?
Lord Freud
My Lord, as I said, it is difficult to make causal connections. The Trussell Trust has said that one reason why people have come to it is benefit delays. I checked through the figures and in the period of that increase the number of delays that we had had reduced. It went up by four percentage points over the past three years, and our delays now stand at 90%. It is difficult to know which came first, the supply or the demand.
Lord Freud
If that sounded like jargon, I apologise. I meant that food from a food bank—the supply—is a free good, and by definition there is an almost infinite demand for a free good.
Baroness Howarth of Breckland
Given that there is so much uncertainty about the figures, the noble Baroness asked whether the Government were going to monitor this. What kind of research or monitoring can the Government undertake to be sure of the figures and the impact of the various factors?
Lord Freud
My Lords, as I said, food banks are not part of the welfare system. We have designed our welfare system to support people with advances of benefit where they require it. It is not the job of the DWP to monitor this provision, which is done on a charitable basis.
Baroness Parminter
My Lords, the refusal of crisis loans is one of the reasons why people are turning to food banks. Do this Government intend to scrutinise the provision of crisis loans, given that the funding for them has recently transferred to local authorities and devolved Administrations?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I can assure my noble friend that the DWP is retaining advances of benefit within the core benefit system. The crisis elements of the Social Fund—the community grants—are going towards local welfare provision by local authorities. This happened in April. My information is that that transfer has landed well.
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top
My Lords, does the Minister really think that people want to go to food banks or that those who are providing them really want to do so? I visited the food bank in Consett recently, and the person running it said to me, “Please, please, tell the Government that this is because the benefits system is now inadequate and people are desperate. That’s why they’re coming”.
Lord Freud
My Lords, as noble Lords know, we are very concerned about the existing benefits system, which is very complex. We are introducing the universal credit, which is designed to make work pay but also to direct more funds to the poorest people. That is exactly why we have introduced that initiative.
Property: Under-occupancy Charge
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Lord Greaves
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their latest assessment of the impact of the under-occupancy charge on properties with spare bedrooms.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, both an impact assessment and an equality impact assessment have already been published. It remains too early to say how people are reacting to this change. The DWP is conducting a formal two-year evaluation of this policy, running from April this year to March 2015. In the short term, an outreach exercise is being undertaken with approximately 78 local authorities to monitor implementation and to ensure that the support provided to local authorities and claimants has been sufficient.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, two years is too long for many people, and the evidence is already coming in. Is it not true that, in many cases, the discretionary housing payments available for people with special needs, especially disabled people who need an extra bedroom, are being provided by local authorities on a short-term, temporary basis, and therefore that these people will still be trapped with rents that they cannot afford in the longer term? Is it not also the case that many councils and housing associations are already reporting that, in order to relocate and rehouse people who wish to move to smaller accommodation, the demand, compared with the supply, is such that it will take several years, and these people, too, will be trapped with higher rents than they can afford?
Lord Freud
My Lords, the purpose of DHPs specifically for the disabled in heavily adapted houses and homes is to make sure that they can stay there indefinitely. Clearly, it would not make sense for people to move when there would be a high cost of adapting a new premise. As I have said, it is too early to know what is happening in different local authorities. The information I have up to now from our intensive interrelationship with local authorities on this matter is that there is a great deal of variation in outcomes.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, the Minister assumes that the Government will make £490-odd million of savings from the bedroom tax on the assumption that most tenants will stay put and take the hit. That is where the saving is coming from. However, all the evidence from housing associations, including my own, and local authorities shows that something like 30% of tenants will move, largely into the private rented sector, where rents, and therefore housing benefit, will be higher. Does the Minister accept that to send 660,000 families into misery for the sake of something like £50 million of net savings in the public sector is not only cruel but profoundly indecent?
Lord Freud
My Lords, the estimate of the annual savings is about £500 million a year. As to the circumstances in which people move into the private sector, clearly it is more expensive generally in the private sector than in the social sector. However, one has to look at the whole of the transaction. Such a move will free up a large apartment or home in the social sector, which will then be made available for a large family on the waiting list. There are 1.8 million families on the waiting list, a group that we can now start to fit into appropriately sized houses.
Lord Naseby
Is my noble friend aware that, as a former chairman of the housing committee in the London Borough of Islington, I wish that there had been a Minister in 1968 who had taken such care and trouble over the changes that were implemented in that year? Should the House not reflect a little on the care that my noble friend has taken and give the procedure time to settle down, in the confidence that if there are quirks to it they will be dealt with?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend’s support. It is important that we see how people respond. We are expecting a behavioural response and people to change their behaviour. We are watching what is happening very closely. I will make appropriate responses when I know what is happening, but it is too early to do so now.
Lord Martin of Springburn
The Minister talks about freeing up property. He will know that, unfortunately, throughout the United Kingdom, there are estates where property is considered hard to let. By these proposals, will he not force couples out of properties and run the risk of those houses lying vacant? That will not help improve the environment for the people who live on such estates and are trying to make a better life for themselves.
Lord Freud
My Lords, as I have said, the early indications are that there is quite a lot of variation around the country. There are clearly some estates with genuine difficulties and we need to watch the situation very closely.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
My Lords, are there not still anomalies with children with disabilities being exempt and yet, when a child with a long-term condition reaches 18, suddenly the rules change and the family becomes liable for this tax?
Lord Freud
My Lords, we rely very heavily on discretionary housing payments to ensure that we have a way of dealing with the difficulties and challenges faced by particular groups and families. That is the way we have chosen. Local authorities can look at the particular circumstances and apply those funds as appropriate.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, the bedroom tax does not take account of the size of a bedroom. Two children under the age of 16 of the same gender are expected to share, whether or not the room is a single, and indeed even if only a single bed will fit in it. Can the Minister tell us what behavioural response is expected from families in those circumstances, other than to buy bunk beds?
Lord Freud
My Lords, clearly there has been slight exaggeration about some apartments and homes. Local authorities will look very carefully at particular homes to make sure that they are in the right category, but it is up to a family that is in such circumstances to look for a more appropriate place to switch into. I must make the point that the turnover of people in the private sector is enormous by comparison to the very low turnover in social housing. This is not healthy for anyone, and certainly not for the economy.
Mesothelioma Bill [HL]
Lord Freud Excerpts(10 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Freud
That the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order: Clauses 1 to 11, Schedule 1, Clause 12, Schedule 2, Clauses 13 to 21.
Mesothelioma Bill [HL]: Impact
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Lord Wills
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact on insurance companies’ balance sheets of paying mesothelioma sufferers 100 per cent of the compensation to which they are entitled under the terms of the scheme set out in the Mesothelioma Bill [HL].
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, over the first 10 years of the scheme, a tariff set at 100% of average civil compensation would total £451 million. That is £129 million more than the current proposals, which are forecast to cost £322 million.
Lord Wills
I thank the Minister for that Answer. Indeed, I thank him for all that he has done personally to advance the cause of all those suffering from this dreadful disease. However, does he recognise the deep frustration felt by many in your Lordships’ House, and many outside as well, that the Medical Research Council seems unable to launch fundamental research into this dreadful disease, even when the insurers are prepared to pay millions to fund it? Does he also recognise the deep sense of injustice felt by so many that the insurers are refusing to pay 100% of all claims to all those who are entitled to them?
Lord Freud
My Lords, the point about research is that it is pretty complicated, one reason being that the Medical Research Council is constrained by the quality of the research proposals presented to it. There is a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation going on, as I see it, and I am working with my noble friend Lord Howe and the British Lung Foundation to break that situation. We are hosting a seminar on the importance of mesothelioma research shortly to try to stimulate the proposals for funding. As for the second aspect of the question, clearly there has been much debate on the exact level of compensation. In the end, this has been a very complicated and intricate deal to make sure that we can get good sums of money. We are getting an average of £87,000 a head to people who suffer from this terrible disease who have not been able to find any compensation whatever.
Lord Wigley
My Lords, those who have suffered industrial lung diseases get the full level of compensation under the 1979 pneumoconiosis Act, when they cannot identify their former employers to sue them, so by virtue of what reasoning should there be a scaling down for those who suffer from mesothelioma and cannot identify their insurance policies? They suffer equally and have great need of those funds.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I know that everyone in this House would agree with the proposition that we want to get as much money as we possibly can to mesothelioma sufferers, particularly those who, through no fault of their own, have not been able to trace the insurer that should be paying them the employers’ liability compensation. The reality is that we cannot trace the insurer in roughly 10% of cases. We are trying to make sure that we trace as many as possible. They will get the full amount, and then get a payment—not quite as much as I would want, but a safe, sustainable payment, for this group of people, and that is a lot better than the nothing they are getting currently.
Lord German
My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on bringing the good insurance companies to provide compensation for this fatal industrial disease for those who are non-traceable or wayward in their insurance. Will my noble friend tell me what guarantees he has that the insurance companies will not simply pass on the costs to their customers in their bills? If he has no guarantee of that, it might well happen anyway. Surely it would be worth the little extra it would cost to bring that 70% closer to 100% in order to be able to give compensation and help to sufferers and their suffering families.
Lord Freud
My Lords, as my noble friend pointed out, this scheme is based on a levy on insurers who are active in the market today, not those who may have actually been responsible for the historic liability. It is very difficult to assess who takes the real burden of the cost. I have been very anxious to get to a position where I am as assured as I can be that the bulk of that cost is carried by the insurance industry, not by British industry as a whole. The risk is that if the levy is too high, the amount would have to be passed on by the industry.
The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds
My Lords, not so long ago, I was at the bedside of one of our clergy who died of mesothelioma, having not been diagnosed until very late. Will the Minister tell us what part sufferers themselves, their relatives and support groups will play in managing what sometimes comes over as an agreement and arrangement between government and insurance agencies?
Lord Freud
Let me make it absolutely clear that we have been acting as the agents of the sufferers in our discussions with the insurance industry. The idea that there is some kind of cosy relationship between government and the insurance industry is absolutely not true. It has been a really tough business to get a deal through. I talk regularly to victims’ groups and lawyers. I get their support and as we develop the next stage, which is a practical process, I will be getting their views and having them very much in mind.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
Will the Minister confirm that with people dying of mesothelioma at a rate of 2,000 a year the Government have predicted a further 56,000 deaths over the next 30 years? Will he tell the House the total level of compensation that will have to be paid out during that period to meet those claims? Will he contrast that with the not a penny piece that is currently being spent on research into finding cures for mesothelioma? In that context, will he give further consideration to the letter sent to him by more than 20 Members of your Lordships’ House from all sides of the House asking for public and insurance industry money to be used in order to do more to find a cure for this terrible disease that will take a further 56,000 lives in the next 30 years?
Lord Freud
My Lords, that is precisely the point. This is a terrible disease. It is about to peak in the next couple of years. That is why I have been in such a hurry to provide a scheme for those who cannot get compensation. I cannot do the sums in my head, but the payments are clearly in the many hundreds of millions. We have had much discussion about the lack of research in this area compared with other cancers. It is something that I and my noble friend Lord Howe are concerned about. We are going to try to launch that. There are two aspects: whether the Medical Research Council will find it valuable to do the research, and the insurance industry, which has been providing the only substantial source of funding until now in this terrible area.
Social Security (Disability Living Allowance, Attendance Allowance and Carer’s Allowance) (Amendment) Regulations 2013
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Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, I should begin by acknowledging all the work done by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, in bringing to the attention of the House, not just today but repeatedly, the concerns of people who are in receipt of mobility payments and who are worried about the effect of these changes and the way they are being implemented.
This debate this evening has made very clear just how important Motability cars and other mobility schemes are to so many disabled people. I was very moved by the account just given by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, who explained so well the consequences for so many people; of how important it has been to have access to these cars and the fears that would accompany their departure.
The scheme, as Motability itself puts it, gives disabled people,
“the freedom to get to work or college, meet up with friends, enjoy a day trip out with their families, attend a medical appointment, or go shopping; to enjoy the independence that so many of us take for granted.”.
Yes, quite so. One of the things that we have struggled to get to tonight is the game of numbers—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, my noble friend Lady Hollis and others. It has proved very difficult to get a clear picture of just how many people will be affected by these changes since the Government have so far been unable to give us precise figures for those who might lose their cars or adapted vehicles. My noble friend Lady Hollis offered up 180,000. In the absence of anything from the Government, I suggest we all adopt that figure tonight. If the Minister will not accept that, please could he give us his own figure?
In past debates, the Minister has contended that because the decision to lease a vehicle is an individual one and the contract between the individual and Motability is a private one, it is not a matter for the Government. In response to that, first, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hardie, made the very interesting point that if direct payments are made, the Government must know that information. Even if they do not, irrespective of the fact that a number of people will choose no longer to lease a vehicle, a number will automatically lose theirs simply by virtue of the fact that they will no longer be entitled to the enhanced rate when they transfer to PIP. The Government surely must have at least an estimate of what those numbers will be. Could they please share those numbers with us? Could the Minister tell us his best estimate tonight?
Secondly, if the Government intend to press ahead in the way they have announced, those affected will clearly need to make plans about how to manage the effects of the changes. What are the Government doing to publicise the changes and inform people who will be affected? The noble Lord, Lord Alton, and my noble friend Lady Hollis asked what transitional arrangements would be put in place for people losing their cars. The Government have told the House previously that they were in discussions with Motability but could not then give further detail. The noble Lord, Lord Freud, has said previously that he had sympathy with the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and he was keen to find a way of supporting people during the transitional period. In the debate on 13 February, the noble Lord, Lord Freud, said in response to my noble friend Lord McKenzie of Luton:
“We are actively exploring what extra support we can give to disabled people to ensure that they can still get to work. We are looking at whether we can use access to work as that particular vehicle. We want to ensure that mobility support remains in place during any transition between the Motability scheme and access to work”.—[Official Report, 13/2/13; col. 740.]
What is the position on Access to Work, an issue also raised by my noble friend Lady Wilkins? Will it be possible to use Access to Work for this? What will happen with transitions? Will the sums of money available be enough to deal with the kinds of things described by my noble friend? Where have the Minister’s conversations got to? Also, where have his discussions with Motability reached? Will he provide more information as to what transitional measures might be put in place? In particular, what opportunities will be given to claimants to either buy or continue to lease adapted vehicles, and at what price? Will he clarify the position of in-patients in hospitals? That point was raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hardie, the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, and others.
This would also be a good time for the Minister to give the House some more information about the new consultation on PIP criteria and how that will link in with the inception of this new scheme—a point made by many noble Lords, understandably. It might help if the House understood more of the Government’s thinking on questions such as the 20/50 rule and the issues on which other campaigners have been pushing the Government to consult. How will this affect people in receipt of the higher rate of DLA who use Motability cars? What advice would he give them at this stage, looking ahead and trying to plan?
There is then the question of geography, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and that of people in rural areas, raised by my noble friend Lady Hollis and the noble Baroness, Lady Masham. Have the Government done any assessment of the variable impact around the country? Can we even have a sense of impact by region, or the difference between urban and rural impact? I am sure that the Government would not have made a change on this scale without having considered that. Will the Minister share that with us?
Finally, at the risk of running slightly wide of the Motion, has the Minister given any thought to the context in which these changes are taking place? We know that support for disabled people wanting to move into work has been in trouble. The Work Programme is struggling generally and is clearly failing to help disabled people into work. The latest report from the Employment Related Services Association suggests that the numbers of people on ESA getting a job start as a result of referral to the Work Programme are terribly low: just 6% of referrals in the ESA flow payment group had a job start, 5% of those in the ESA volunteers group, and just 2% of referrals in the ESA ex-IB group. Given that, will the Minister take this opportunity to give the House some reassurance that the Government are concentrating in a cohesive and integrated way on the kind of support needed to help disabled people into work and to support them when they are there?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, I have some difficulty in framing this answer because the debate was very wide but the regulations we are discussing are actually extremely narrow. What we are actually discussing is bringing the treatment of patients in hospital into line between those who receive Motability and those who stop receiving it after a certain period. There was an exemption for the Motability element and we are just bringing the two into line. I acknowledge that there has been a very wide debate on the whole area but we are talking about something that is actually much narrower. I hope noble Lords will understand as I try to juggle the two. I will try to deal with some of the wider issues but I will deal with the actual issue first.
I will set a little bit of context by saying that even in these hard economic times this Government continue to spend around £50 billion a year on disabled people and services to enable those who face the greatest barriers to participate fully in society. That figure compares well internationally. We spend almost double the OECD average as a percentage of GDP—2.4% against the OECD average of 1.3%. Only two out of the 34 OECD countries spend more. Through the reforms of DLA and the introduction of PIP, we will make sure that the billions we spend provide more targeted support to those who need it most. Three million people will continue to get DLA or PIP and half a million will actually get more under the new system.
While I am on figures, to answer the question from the noble Lord, Lord Alton, about the money flow to Motability, £1.6 billion went through to it in terms of transfer of benefit. My noble friend Lady Thomas asked what happens to the transfer. Clearly we recognise that some people will lose out but we have sought to ensure that those who lose out are those whose disabilities have the least impact on their participation in society. On our sampling of this, many people—more than half a million—will be winners under PIP.
The UK has a proud history in furthering the rights of disabled people and we want to ensure that all people are treated fairly. The provisions under debate, which also apply to claimants of PIP, are a case in hand. They ensure that everyone receiving the mobility component of DLA or PIP in the future will be subject to the same payment rules, whether or not they have a Motability vehicle. The history of this was that when the mobility component of DLA stopped being paid to hospital in-patients in 1996, transitional provisions were built in, including a measure which allowed for payments to continue in order to cover the costs of the lease on a Motability vehicle. These arrangements represented a reasonable adjustment at the time for those in-patients who were committed to a mobility contract when the rules changed. However, noble Lords must understand that any lease held by someone in 1996 will have now long expired and these arrangements are past their sell-by date for the users affected at the time.
In response to the question from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hardie, about consultation, we clearly signalled our intention to implement this change in our consultation on the detailed design of our reforms to DLA. In that consultation we made clear that this change was not intended to penalise Motability users but to introduce fairness between how we treat those who chose to take out a lease with Motability—some 600,000 people—and the vast, or substantial, majority who do not, which is 1.1 million people.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
The Minister knows what the figures were in the past; why can he not project them forward? I am relying on memory now, of debates we had 18 months ago, but am I not right in thinking that he told us at the time that something like 29% of those in receipt of higher rate mobility turned it into a Motability vehicle. If that figure is correct, which I believe it to be, then he can surely extrapolate that to the numbers of gross losers coming down from high rate DLA mobility, which I understand, again relying on memory, was 600,000. Therefore, 29% of 600,000 brings me to my 180,000 figure. What is wrong with that figure?
Lord Freud
The reason that it is wrong is that we do not know that the Motability figure lines up at that same percentage into the mobility. That is the reason. As a rule of thumb, it is one way of going, but we actually do not know whether or not the kind of people who will maintain their higher rate mobility will be the ones with Motability. That is the issue.
One of the questions that the noble Baroness was particularly concerned about in this area was the heavily adapted cars, and I think she described it as the foolishness of moving a heavily adapted car back. I emphasise that only 2% of Motability cars are heavily adapted, so this is a much smaller problem; most are just standard cars.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham
I was a patron—or something or other—of Motability, and that is certainly not my experience. They may be standard cars but they have been adapted to make them comfortable. Even people who drove ordinary cars beforehand transferred to a Motability car in order to get the adaptations and so on which made it comfortable as well as possible for them to drive. Obviously I am in no position to argue with his 2% figure, but I suspect from my own experience that another 20%, 30% or 40% will be using a Motability car which, to some extent or other, has been personalised or tailored for their use.
Lord Freud
My Lords, I do not think we have time to debate what heavily adapted comprises. However, the figure for cars heavily adapted for a disabled person is 2%. Clearly, we all personalise cars to some extent. I can let the noble Baroness have some more information on that to the extent that I have it, but that is the figure that I have. I confirm that the noble Lord, Lord Sterling, is looking carefully at how Motability can help to mitigate the impact for those who may be affected by the move to PIP.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
Before the Minister leaves that point, will he tell us a little bit more about what he is doing to create joint transitional arrangements, if that is what they are to be, with Motability, and when they will published? When will opportunities occur for people to be consulted and to respond to the consultation?
Lord Freud
My Lords, we are working with Motability currently on what the arrangements might be. I have no information at this stage on where we are with those discussions between the department and Motability, but clearly we are in discussions. I am not informed as to when I can update the House on that matter.
On the judicial review, as noble Lords have seen, there is a consultation on the 20 metre/50 metre issue. I can assure my noble friend Lady Thomas that this is a genuine consultation which we are entering with an open mind and we will be looking to hear the views of individuals and organisations. Once that consultation is closed, we will publish our response, including how we intend to act.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton, referred to changes to Atos’s supply chain since the tendering stage of the PIP. I assure noble Lords that the department’s decision to award the contract was not based on the mention of any particular organisation in the bids to deliver the PIP. It is usual for there to be changes between contract award and delivery. Indeed, we expect Atos’s use of supply chain sites to rise and fall in line with referral numbers. The department made a change to the reassessment timetable after Atos submitted its tender, which means that there will be significantly fewer assessments in 2013-14 than it had originally planned. However, it is important to note that Atos has kept the department informed about changes and we are confident that Atos and its partners are able to deliver successfully.
The noble Lord asked about the £391 million that the Government are said to have given Atos over three years. I do not have that information to hand but I will write to him on that matter.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
I am grateful to the noble Lord. He will recall that I also asked him specifically whether the 60 minutes’ travelling distance which Atos had said would be the maximum that people would have to travel to an assessment centre will be maintained or whether it will now be extended to 90 minutes, as has been alleged. Will the total number of assessment centres be reduced from the number I cited earlier to just a handful?
Lord Freud
I remind noble Lords that Atos tendered for four of the contract areas and received two, so it is not surprising that the 22 sites it was looking at have been reduced, given that it has a smaller number of contract areas. My information is that the 22 figure has gone down to 14. I will add to my letter any information I have on travel times estimates.
In summary, this issue is about balance and fairness—fairness to those who have a Motability vehicle and to the substantial majority of mobility component recipients who do not. However, this is fairness tempered with appropriate mechanisms to ensure that the impact on existing and future users of the scheme is minimised. Specific transitional arrangements are in place for those directly impacted when the measure was introduced and there will remain appropriate and generous provisions in the future. I commend the hospital in-patient arrangements to the House and trust that they have reassured the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and that as a consequence he will not press the Motion.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
My Lords, as always, I am grateful to the Minister for the way in which he answered the questions that were put to him, although I think he would be the first to agree that a number of questions raised during the debate remain unanswered. However, he will also understand that, although the measures may be narrow, parliamentarians have to take their chances. If they can find a hook on which to hang their coat, they are obliged to do so. That is surely part of our role as scrutineers. Your Lordships will be glad to know that I do not intend to drag this out although there is no time limit. Even though this is a dinner hour debate, we could have gone on for much longer. I think those taking part in the following debate will recognise that we have been pretty disciplined in the way that we have gone about this.
The issues that we have covered range from the disproportionalilty in the way that these changes will affect rural areas and poorer areas and concerns about the statistics that have still not been shared with us. We do not know the number of people who will be impacted by these changes and the cost of the vehicles, which was a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins. Will it cost between £8,000 and £12,000 for someone to purchase one of these vehicles—a vehicle that had been made available to them previously by an Act of Parliament? It was an Act of Parliament that laid down the criteria under which people qualified. Surely we are guilty of behaving without due concern for the effect of the changes that we have put in place.
I repeat what I said in our deliberations earlier this year. It is our duty to understand the impact of the decisions we make. The Minister has just said that we cannot reliably estimate the impact; we do not know. That is not a good position for us to be in. Decisions will affect the mobility and independence of people with disabilities. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, put it very well when she said that you turn a person from being independent to being dependent when you take such decisions.
Just as we found a way of encouraging the Minister to come to the House this evening, I know that I and other Members of your Lordships’ House will look for other ways of holding the Government to account to ensure that we mitigate the worst effects of these changes. On the basis of the reply that has now been given, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Unemployment: Young People
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Lord Roberts of Llandudno
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking with other European Union member states to tackle youth unemployment.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, the Minister for Employment attended a ministerial meeting on youth unemployment in Madrid yesterday under the European initiative for growth and jobs. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions will attend a follow-up in Berlin on 3 July. Youth unemployment is on the June agenda of both the European employment and social policy council and the European Council, and UK experts are members of the team reforming the Greek public employment service.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
I think I thank the Minister for his Answer. He is telling us what is going to happen, but does he agree that with nearly a quarter of under-25s in the European area unemployed, the only way we can solve this is on a European-wide level? To tackle this crisis, should he not join Lib Dem MEPs and others who have called for the UK to make the most of the €6 billion EU youth guarantee scheme, which ensures that all under-25s receive continued education, a job, apprenticeship or traineeship? How would the Government use the money that would come from this European initiative?
Lord Freud
My Lords, clearly there are various initiatives. Some €6 billion across Europe is not a huge amount, and we are spending a great deal on our youth unemployment issues with the youth contract. If it emerges out of these meetings that one of the aspects of the European scheme is to encourage SMEs to take on youngsters by offering loans, clearly that is something that we will look at.
Lord Barnett
My Lords, does the noble Lord accept that talking to others might be helpful, but that generally they are pretty useless, especially in summits? Will he also accept that 1% growth at best over the coming years will be no way to help to increase employment among young people or anybody else?
Lord Freud
My Lords, perhaps I should not comment on the uselessness or otherwise of summits.
One of the most interesting things about this current recession, or slowdown in growth—
Lord Freud
We have had a recession and we are now having slow growth. One of the most interesting things is how the effects on employment have been nothing like what we have seen in previous recessions. One reason is the effectiveness of active labour market polices, particularly those that address youth unemployment, which has been coming down in the last year in particular in a way that it probably would not have done in previous recessions.
Lord Tebbit
My Lords, will my noble friend remind the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, that money that comes from Europe is our money, which has gone to Brussels, has had a large amount sliced off for its own purposes and waste, and has then been graciously returned to us? Can he also explain to me, because I do not understand, why so many young people are unemployed here but so many young people can come from Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and find jobs here without any trouble at all? What is the explanation for that?
Lord Freud
My Lords, the blunt explanation for that is that we have a welfare system that traps people in inactivity and makes it very difficult for them to pick up some of the jobs that other people find it easy to take. That is why we are reforming the welfare system root and branch, in particular why we are bringing in the universal credit, which will get rid of that trapping effect of our benefit system.
Lord Martin of Springburn
In the coming year, will more young people be taken on as apprentices in the Government’s apprentice scheme?
Lord Freud
My Lords, one of the recommendations of the Wolf report, which, as noble Lord’s will remember, I am very enthusiastic about, is to underpin the importance of apprenticeships and vocational training. In the latest year for which I have a record, 2011-12, we had more than half a million apprenticeships—520,000. That is up 86% on the two years before. Clearly this is one of the most important ways in which to get youth back into the workforce in a sustainable way, and it is something that we are pursuing aggressively.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, the Minister might not realise that one consequence of our very, very slow growth is that 1 million young people are out of work. In the north-east, where I live, a quarter of young people are out of work. We now need something really radical. May I make a suggestion? Labour’s job guarantee would mean that any young person out of work for a year would be guaranteed a job and would have to take it. Will he match that?
Lord Freud
My Lords, we have a huge number of programmes in our youth contract to encourage people into work. One thing I need to emphasise is that we have a long-term problem of disengaged youth, which we had right through the longest boom we have ever had. The real measure here is people not in education or work. In 2001, that figure stood at just shy of 1 million and it rose through the boom period. Since the election, we have pulled it down by 60,000. The figure currently is 1.3 million. It is a real problem that cannot be brought down with short-term programmes; it is brought down by fundamentally restructuring how youngsters are supported—through vocational education as a key underpinning to get these kids into meaningful long-term work.
Child Support and Claims and Payments (Miscellaneous Amendments and Change to the Minimum Amount of Liability) Regulations 2013
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Baroness Stowell
That the draft regulations laid before the House on 20 May be approved.
Relevant document: 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 12 June.