Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Lord Kennedy of Southwark and Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, as we come to the end of the Bill, I will not start a debate on the regulations, which we have discussed many times.
I have some concluding remarks. I start by thanking the Bill team, and all the officials who have worked on the Bill. They have been willing to engage with us at all times, and we are grateful for that. I pay tribute also to Ian Parker from the opposition office for all his work on the Bill, and especially to Molly Critchley from the opposition office, who has helped, directed and guided me and my noble friend Lord Beecham and other noble Lords on the Opposition Benches. She has proved knowledgeable, technically skilled and valuable to our debates as we hold the Government to account on this Bill.
I thank, too, noble Lords from all sides of the House, certainly the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, and the noble Lords, Lord Best, Lord Kerslake and Lord Cameron, and many noble Lords on the Government Benches as well, including the noble Lords, Lord Porter, Lord True and Lord Lansley. I have enjoyed our debates. I think that we have all helped to improve the Bill. It is fair to say that at many times local government has spoken with one voice. It is also clear from the contributions of noble Lords that there is great experience here and that we all care deeply about housing. We may not often agree what needs to be done, but that is another matter. We are all concerned about the housing crisis and that it is dealt with.
I pay tribute also to the noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park. They engaged willingly with the House and dealt with all noble Lords in a courteous manner.
My penultimate remarks concern the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford. I have sometimes wondered what she had done to be given such a controversial Bill—an ill-prepared Bill—and to have the poise to deal with all sorts of points from around the House, often on her own. She has done so with great skill and courtesy; I have appreciated that very much, as has the whole House.
Although the Bill is in better shape than when it arrived in your Lordships’ House, it will not particularly help to tackle the housing crisis. In some respects it may actually make things worse. We may get back to the Bill next week in ping-pong fashion but I hope we do not—I hope that the Government accept all the amendments from your Lordships’ House. We shall wait and see about that. What is certain, however, is that we have not seen the last of those regulations. We have not seen them at all yet, but I can guarantee that we will have a return performance by the same group of noble Lords in the autumn. We will discuss the regulations and how they should have been here now, and maybe one or two Motions from the Opposition. I do not know what we will see, but I thank everybody most sincerely.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
It is quite unusual for anyone to say anything from this side at this stage, but I support the remark about the regulations and would like to say how good the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and her team have been. It has been a superhuman task. The Bill came to us in a very difficult form and I have never seen a Minister do better than the Minister has done on this Bill.
Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Lord Kennedy of Southwark and Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
If the House will indulge me, that offer is welcome, but it is fair to say that no one could accuse either this Government or previous Governments going back many years of any haste in dealing with these matters. I hope that we shall finally see some progress.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, the comments that have been made are very interesting and I am grateful to all those who have given their support. However, we tend to overlook the fact that there are now something like 6 million leaseholders, so we are not talking about a little subject. It is a pretty big one that is important to a great many people. It cannot just be brushed aside as something that it would be nice to do.
I would love to see a completely new consolidation Act for all property issues; I raised this at a meeting where I was asked to give a speech. I said that people should write to their MPs and press for one. A man who said he was a member of the Law Commission made it clear that the commission does nothing for nothing now, so the only way you could get it to prepare a consolidation Act, which it often used to do in the past, is by pre-paying for it. Some Government must decide that it is time to put all property legislation, which keeps a lot of solicitors happily and expensively employed referring to Act after Act with each one changing the previous one, into one Act. It is all piecemeal and there is no cohesion. Those 6 million leaseholders and the multiplicity of legislation are big problems for us.
The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said that this might well be a growing problem, and I think he is right. Foreign ownership and the fact that so many people are having to move out of London because service charges are too high are the reasons for these issues. What the Minister had to say was very good, but he has not really given an indication that he will say anything before Third Reading, which is coming up pretty soon. What I would like to hear from him is that he will look at another approach, either through regulations or in some other way, to deal with this. That, at least, would put his good intentions on the record. As I say, it is important that these issues are not just pushed aside, which has been the case too many times when I have raised them. This basically applies to the situation as set out in Amendment 101.
Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Lord Kennedy of Southwark and Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)
My Lords, my Amendment 15 has been popped into the middle of all these government amendments, so now is the moment when technically I must speak to it. It has been tabled in the same way as it was before: simply to ask the House to comment on how well it now thinks our regulations are beginning to show through in the form of amendments to this Bill. We have been very dissatisfied that the regulations have not been published and believe that much has to be put on the face of the Bill that could otherwise have been covered in regulations. I do not need to go into further detail as I spoke to this in Committee.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, as this is the first time I have spoken during today’s Report stage consideration of the Housing and Planning Bill, I refer noble Lords to my declaration of interests and declare that I am an elected councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham.
Perhaps I may also thank Members from all sides of the House for their kind remarks after I was taken ill as we entered the last day of Committee before Easter. I received emails, notes and cards, and noble Lords were very generous in their remarks about me and in wishing me a speedy recovery. I am also very grateful to my noble friend Lord Beecham and all other noble Lords from the Labour Benches who, at short notice—or no notice at all—came forward to assist the Front Bench efforts. I am truly grateful to everyone.
The Government will have seen that we have divided the House a number of times already this evening, and I think it is inevitable that we will continue to divide the House today and on future days on Report as we proceed with our consideration of the Bill. It is not just that we object to or do not like parts of this Bill; it is the wholly inadequate and poor way the Bill has been brought forward with ill-thought-out, half-baked proposals, inadequate preparation and a general disregard for Parliament, local authorities, charities, campaigners, tenants and anyone else affected by these proposals. The noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, has done her very best in the circumstances, and we are very grateful to her and her colleagues for that. I thought it important to put that on the record again.
Amendments 14, 16, 17, 18, and 19 replace the word “companies” first, and subsequently “company”, with the words “bodies corporate” in the first instance and “body corporate” subsequently, so as to include bodies incorporated outside England and Wales. This widens the scope of the banning order, which is to be welcomed, and is in response to points made by my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours in Committee, as the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, mentioned in her remarks.
Amendment 20 raises the standard of proof to the criminal standard and we welcome that proposal. If someone is to be subject to a penalty, then being satisfied to the higher standard of proof seems sensible to me, and this amendment makes that crystal clear for everyone.
Amendment 21 will add a new sub-paragraph into paragraph 10 of Schedule 1, again clarifying that, under the appeals procedure, the appeal can have regard to matters that the local authority was unaware of. Amendment 29 provides for an appeal from the First-tier Tribunal to the Upper Tribunal, other than on a point of law. My noble friend Lord Beecham made that point in this regard in Committee, and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, advised us all in her letter of 6 April, these matters were also raised by the First-tier Tribunal and we support them.
Amendment 15 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, is one with a lot of appeal to us. It would stop the regulations coming into force until at least one year after the publication of the draft regulations to be made under the subsection. It would certainly leave us with a proper time for reflection. That can only be a good thing when we look at the Bill and consider how the Government have acted in their general handling of it so far. If the noble Baroness wishes to test the opinion of the House, I can assure her of the support of these Benches.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I have mixed views on this because I recall the great victory of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, which ensured that all residential letting agents were obliged to be registered. I think that measure, which has been in force for a few years, is working very well. It seems to me that this is far too belt and braces and that the proposed measure would be so onerous and costly that it would end up costing tenants who want to rent these properties extra money. Is the noble Baroness aware of the Association of Residential Letting Agents and the registrations that are now applicable? I well remember the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, arguing at the time that there was no way of getting the bad agents to register. However, when the relevant amendment was passed and they had to be members of the relevant body, the situation changed.
I am slightly puzzled when I see glossy magazine advertisements letting properties which give the name of the agent and add in brackets “Fees apply”. I am not sure whether that means an extra fee is being levied on people when it should not be. It might be worth investigating that. However, I believe that tenants are good judges of whether a property looks reasonable and the cost suits their needs. We should be more concerned about the cases featured in newspapers in the last couple of weeks in which people are paying £70 a night to sleep in three-tier beds and all the rubbish in the world ends up outside because there are no proper toilet facilities. That is a different field which requires very careful consideration and attention. However, the everyday letting process used by ordinary tenants and agents seems to work reasonably well.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, we are supportive of both Amendments 27 and 28 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville. Amendment 27 would require the Secretary of State to issue a code of practice for the letting and management of private rented sector housing in England. As often with legislation, you are legislating to deal with the end of the market that wants to cut a few corners. The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of private sector landlords do a very good job and provide tenants with a better choice, better management standards and better homes than the code would allow for. However, the proposed code would afford an additional layer of protection and help to lift up those landlords who are not always the best in the business and raise standards generally. The list of organisations is comprehensive in nature and would allow the Secretary of State the flexibility though proposed new paragraph 3(j) to consult “other persons or organisations” as he considers appropriate, which is sensible as organisations come and go, and needs and requirements change.
Amendment 28 would require the Secretary of State to keep and publish a register of letting agents. This, again, is a very welcome move and would bring a sensible and proportionate measure to this part of the housing market by requiring a register to be maintained. These agents facilitate agreements between landlords and tenants. There is a proper role for local authorities in maintaining the register as they will be aware who is operating in their area. The amendment prescribes what information is to be held on the register. Proposed new subsection (8) of the amendment would allow the Secretary of State to,
“make further provision about the register”.
It is a sensible move to take this power. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park, will accept the amendment. However, if she will not, I hope that she will explain carefully to the House why that is the case.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, Amendment 35 seeks to put in the Bill a requirement for the Secretary of State to undertake a review of tenancy deposit schemes. The purpose of the review is to ensure that tenants are treated fairly at the end of their tenancy.
The Housing Act 2004 required every landlord or letting agent who takes a deposit for an assured shorthold tenancy to join a tenancy deposit scheme. The scheme was subsequently amended by the Localism Act 2011. The tenant pays over a deposit, which is usually one month’s rent, when the tenancy agreement is signed, and within 30 days from receipt of the deposit the tenant has to be provided with the details of the scheme that is being used. If at the end of the tenancy there is no dispute, the deposit is returned; otherwise, the two parties can go into a dispute resolution process and are bound by the decision with no redress to the courts. Alternative processes can be taken through the courts but there is an underlying problem, in that the tenant is often at a disadvantage where they have paid a deposit and need to access that money to put down as a deposit on the next property they are seeking to rent.
This amendment would allow for a review to take place to see what can be done to level the playing field somewhat between landlords or letting agents and tenants. One of the things the review could look at is the viability of zero or no-deposit schemes run by insurance companies or some other mechanism. This is an area where tenants can be put at a disadvantage and it needs looking at. I beg to move.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)
My Lords, this is an important subject of which I have had direct personal experience. I have found that the tenancy deposit schemes are extremely thorough, rapid in dealing with matters, and fair—or perhaps even anti the landlord in my case. My situation involved a solicitor who sent in 17 pages of issues he had raised, although he had been there for five years. He was Australian and cantankerous. It was a bit of a trial of strength, but it did convince me that the present system is working very well indeed.
The other reason this issue is important is that some cunning tenants do not pay their last month’s rent. They pay all the rent until they get to the end of the tenancy and then do not make the final payment. Therefore, the deposit might be the only thing you have to pay that rent. I have often seen that happen, so the amendment really is not a good idea.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, if agreed, Amendment 35 would require a review of the tenancy deposit scheme under Sections 212 to 215 of the Housing Act 2004. The tenancy deposit schemes in England are currently protecting more than 3 million deposits on behalf of tenants, helping to raise standards in the private rented sector and ensuring that tenants are treated fairly at the end of the tenancy. Carrying out a review of the schemes would be a resource-intensive and costly exercise which would duplicate the department’s ongoing and regular governance role in monitoring and reviewing the schemes. This is not the most effective way to spend taxpayers’ money. We are satisfied that all three tenancy deposit protection schemes are providing high standards of service to tenants and landlords—and I appreciate hearing about the experience of my noble friend Lady Gardner in this respect.
Let me give some further detail. If tenants have complied with all their obligations, they will receive their deposit back within 10 days of the scheme administrator being notified of the end of the tenancy. If the landlord and tenant disagree on the amount to be returned, they can either use the alternative dispute resolution service offered by the schemes or go to court. Of the 11.5 million deposits which have been protected since the launch of the scheme, less than 2% have gone to adjudication. On average, 27% are awarded to tenants, 17% to landlords or agents—and, interestingly, 56% are split between the two sides.
Alternative dispute resolution cases are handled by independent, impartial and qualified adjudicators and decisions are made on the basis of the evidence provided by both parties. The tenancy deposit schemes are required to deal with disputed cases within 28 days and they have regularly met this performance target. I am also satisfied that the tenancy deposit protection schemes awarded contracts for new custodial schemes which commenced on 1 April have the necessary dispute resolution processes in place to ensure that tenants will continue to be treated fairly. This was a key evaluation criteria in our re-procurement exercise carried out last year.
I hope that in setting out some detail, this explanation will assure the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and other noble Lords that tenants’ deposits are and will continue to be returned to them fairly and quickly at the end of the tenancy. However, I would be happy, along with my noble friend the Minister, to speak with noble Lords outside the Chamber about any specific issues they may have about the fairness of the scheme.
Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Lord Kennedy of Southwark and Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
I thank the noble Lord for that remark. I do not want to prolong the debate on this but I am certainly pinning my faith on the right to manage. If we can get a more realistic percentage of how many people are required to do things under that right, then I have hopes on that point, too—and I have an amendment tabled later on it. Meanwhile, I note what has been said but the difficulty with local authorities is that they do not have the money to do any enforcement. That is their one complaint to me. Kensington and Chelsea was mentioned. Westminster had a team of six and sacrificed other things to have its properties checked, but Kensington and Chelsea does it only if there is real pressure and the situation becomes impossible, because it is short of funds for enforcement and very limited in what it can do.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
On that very point, the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, said that councils can recover their expenses. It would be quite useful to know what he meant by expenses. Are we talking about reasonable costs or full costs? If necessary he can obviously write to me on what he meant by expenses, but the point the noble Baroness makes is absolutely right: councils do not have the resources to undertake this work.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
As we are not getting a reply on that point, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Localism Bill
Debate between Lord Kennedy of Southwark and Baroness Gardner of Parkes(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I am slightly concerned by this amendment as I think there is an international problem occurring of people buying things online to such an extent—I heard this in Australia while I was there and I believe it is the same everywhere—that people are closing up small shops because there is simply no way they can afford to compete with online purchases. I do not know what will happen in these instances. What will local authorities do? Will the people who own the shops be encouraged to convert them into residential accommodation or would it be considered very damaging to the whole high street suddenly to find that instead of shops in continuity in a row suddenly two or three were houses? In the past there were lots of little shops that were once houses. Would we be prepared to see the reverse of that happening?
I think it is a very complicated issue, and, if the landlord simply cannot get a tenant now, what does he do? Does he allow the property to fall down? I do not know what the answer is, particularly with the shop premises.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
The amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, raises a significant issue. I can clearly see the point that he is making. If the Government are not minded to accept it, I hope that the noble Lord will be able to give us some insight into the Government’s thinking on how they intend to deal with this problem. My noble friend Lord Beecham raised a significant point about residential property, which is probably just as important as the point about commercial property.