Aviation: UK Civil Aviation

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Lord Shutt of Greetland

Monday 23rd January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I am most grateful to the Minister for giving way, but I take it that he is not going to leave this point before answering the question: how can he possibly justify a review of the hub in Britain while excluding Heathrow? Is that not rather like, as someone said, reviewing the expansion of supermarkets without including Tesco?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, the noble Lord has made his question clear.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

I have and I am sitting down.

House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Lord Shutt of Greetland

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

Would it not be for the convenience of the House if the staff distributed the new list, instead of us all marching out to get hold of it?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, anything for the convenience of the House but I have never before seen papers distributed. It occurred to me, frankly. Clearly, that can be done. As to the missing amendments, I will make my inquiries.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Lea of Crondall and Lord Shutt of Greetland

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

My Lords, this Bill is of course a charade. Nevertheless, it must be taken seriously. It is a self-imposed straitjacket and could prevent HMG making agreements that are in the long-term interests of the country. To adjust a well known phrase, referendums are the last refuge of the scoundrel, with one exception. In the case of Harold Wilson, it was the last refuge of a statesman. They undermine parliamentary democracy and deprive Parliament of its judgment, which—if I may say so to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch—UKIP claims to hold dear. That is not the way that parliamentary democracy works.

On the methodology of referendums, there are serious problems in getting any message across. The campaigners in referendums would be hard pressed on many issues—the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, gave us many examples—to explain the basis on which the referendum has been called. More than that, referendums deal with matters that often depend on the rapidly changing world being understood. Parliamentarians have to try to understand these things, but to say that they are all simple to understand in Burton-upon-Trent is not the classic view of parliamentary democracy.

It is very easy for people to misunderstand what we are talking about. Noble Lords on the government Front Bench often refer to the importance of China and ask why we concentrate on Europe when China is so important. I do not think that anyone wants us to be the 51st state of China, but the world is in large blocs of one sort or another. We cannot say, “Stop the world, I want to get off”. That message is not getting across to the British people. It is not just a question of stopping the world; it is a world that is getting faster, and we have done nothing to disabuse people of not understanding that.

I echo all those who have commented on referendums, and the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, put it most bluntly. Presumably the Minister—the noble Lord, Lord Wallace —will be able to disabuse us of any misunderstanding on this. The Government have agreed to something in Brussels that, under this rubric, needs a referendum. They then will presumably—can I be assured on this?—be honour-bound to recommend a yes vote and then to campaign for it. I honestly do not know why they wish for such a process. Presumably, that is the process the Government have signed up for.

Another difficulty I have with referendums in any socioeconomic field is regarding the trade-offs involved in economic, social and industrial policy. People cannot always be presented with things that they find particularly palatable. There are trade-offs in real life that make things unpalatable, but you cannot vote just for the nice bit—for example, “Would you like to have a subsidy for wind farms?”—without voting for the carbon tax or whatever.

I take the carbon tax as an example. There will probably be an EU carbon tax; in fact, we have agreed to go along with a carbon price floor and it must be compatible with our huge commitments to help the developing world. On adjustment, this may add up to hundreds of billions of pounds and, therefore, at the previous ministerial council—I think that it was the summit on energy policy that took place only a couple of months ago—it was agreed that there should be no competition on subsidies. Therefore, we are moving increasingly towards what you might call an EU energy tax regime.

The list on the now famous page 14 of the Bill, referred to by a number of speakers, including my noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, is confusing and we are trying to get our brains around it. The article referred to on line 9, on the harmonisation of indirect taxes, relates to a change that presumably involves moving from unanimous to majority voting. I suppose that that is what this could be about. I think that that must happen and having a carbon tax will not be very popular, because it would affect aviation and lots of other aspects of energy policy, including transport and so on. People should be very careful what they wish for in making these gestures to keep the dogs at bay, as it were, politically.

I return to the point about how the media is, as the word suggests, the intermediator of information. Information is intermediated by, for example, Rupert Murdoch. He is quite unlike the BBC, which is why so many of us are very disturbed by the deal announced recently by Mr Hunt, the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, which will allow Rupert Murdoch to have such a big influence. The relationship between Rupert Murdoch and the BBC is as follows. If one looks at one's BlackBerry every morning, one sees that the BBC always reports what the papers say. It does not have its own opinions, but it reports what the Daily Mail, the Daily Express, the Sun and the Times say. That is the relationship.

That would be true with knobs on for any referendum. We have a potential crisis if we do not treat people as responsible citizens. The way in which we changed TUC and Labour Party policy in 1988, in which I had a hand, was to present concrete arguments and considerations that masses of people could understand, with the eloquence of Jacques Delors behind us, about why we should have collective bargaining at a higher level in Europe, and trade-offs to do with workers’ rights across Europe, so that employers could not say, “We cannot do that in our country because we would lose competitiveness”. This was a serious message that people could understand. Recently, we have not treated our citizens as serious people at all. It has been like Julius Caesar treating people as if all they wanted was a few funfairs. That has been our democracy.

At the end of all this we will be confronted, as with the AV Bill, with referendums that will probably have pathetic turnouts, so we will be saying: “Forget parliamentary democracy, this is how we govern the country—by a decision of 19 per cent against 13 per cent of the electorate”. Britain's stock in the world will go down and down despite—or because of—the fact that other people, on enhanced co-operation, will be moving forward. It is a sad day when we see short-term politics bringing before us a Bill such as this. I hope that a sunset clause will not be needed in practice, but I am sure that an incoming Labour or Lib-Lab Government will immediately take this ludicrous piece of legislation off the statute book.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I hope that the House will permit me to explain that it is now necessary for Royal Assent to be notified to two Acts. This will involve adjourning the debate for no more than a few moments. I beg to move that the debate on the Motion for a Second Reading of the Bill be now adjourned for the notifications of Royal Assent.