Alcohol: Late Night Drinking

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, a police superintendent has the right to close premises where excessive disorder is being caused. Can the Minister tell the House how often this power has been exercised?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I cannot give the noble Lord a quantitative answer. One of the measures under the anti-social behaviour Bill, which will arrive in this House shortly, will give the power—on the authority of a police inspector—to order the immediate closure of premises.

Crime: Stalking

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Tuesday 12th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Baroness is also a member of the justice unions group, and I am grateful for the work that that group did. Cyber offences are explicitly included in the new offences and are designed to recognise that stalking can take many different forms. It is a form of harassment that this Government will not tolerate.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that emphasis should always be put on the fact that stalking, like domestic violence, has male victims as well as female?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Yes. It is quite interesting that in the Crime Survey for England and Wales, 4.2% of females complained of being stalked and 2.7% of men also complained of being victims. It affects people regardless of gender.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I hope that noble Lords will agree with me that there is nothing wrong with party politics in its right place. The key thing about the way in which the role of the police and crime commissioners is structured means that the operation of the police will not be politicised. Chief constables will decide all operational matters, such as who is arrested and how investigations are carried out—these will not become political decisions. The policing protocol helps to set out where the PCC’s role ends and that of the chief constable begins.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate]

My Lords, if a police and crime commissioner who represents a party finds that the public in the area he represents take a totally different view at the local level from the policies of that party, which policy should he implement? Should it be the policy of the public who elected him or the party policy?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

This is something that all elected politicians have to come to terms with and I see no conflict here. For the first time, we have direct democratic accountability through the role of the PCCs and I see the next PCC elections bearing witness as to how effective this will be, in the sense that people will be making choices, some for someone they think represents their political point of view, while others will be looking for other characteristics. Above all, however, they will be judging on how well the PCCs have performed. That is the challenge that faces those who have taken on this office.

Police and Crime Commissioners: Elections

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Tuesday 4th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My noble friend has worked very hard at producing figures which I am afraid I do not recognise. The total recoverable cost of the election in north Wales, as set out in the Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Local Returning Officers’ and Police Area Returning Officers’ Charges) Order 2012 is £1,063,000. The north Wales police area returning officer believes that the cost of contingencies for Welsh language ballot papers comes to around £62,000. Therefore, with 80,000 votes cast in north Wales, it comes to significantly less than the figure quoted by my noble friend.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate]

My Lords—

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, is not one of the lessons of this fiasco that people do not want gratuitous constitutional changes shoved down their throats?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I note what my noble friend has to say on that matter, but I am a great believer in the coalition. We will be taking his advice, because the next election will be three and a half years from now, in May.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate]

Are safeguards in place for the appointment of deputy commissioners? Is he aware of articles in the press suggesting that a number of deputy commissioners have been appointed by commissioners who were relatives and friends? Is this not the nepotism that was predicted?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I cannot speak to those particular allegations. All I can say is that the appointment of a deputy police and crime commissioner is not obligatory, but is something that police and crime commissioners can do. Further, they are required to appoint a head of paid staff and a finance officer. The latter two posts are the only ones that the law requires.

Police: Strike Action

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Yes, there is a tribunal which considers these matters and, indeed, there are issues before it at the moment. I think that today is the first day on which it is taking evidence. There is a mechanism in place for resolving these issues, but there is also an argument which I think the Government should not be afraid of putting to the police force. The Tom Winsor proposals give the police an opportunity to improve their flexibility of working, for improving pay scales so that there is a better step up from constable to sergeant, and making sure in many ways that the pay structure for the police force, which was set up 30 years ago, is fit for purpose today.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate]

My Lords, when the right to strike was removed in 1919, it followed large-scale disorder on the streets of the United Kingdom and by implication recognised the very special position that the police service was in. Does the Minister agree that the special case for the police—the X factor if you like—should always be borne in mind when the Home Secretary is deciding issues concerning the police?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My answer to that is yes.

Police: Working Conditions

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Thursday 19th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I echo the noble Lord’s praise for the police service, and thoroughly endorse it. However, I should also say that it is quite right that we look at police pay and conditions, which have not been properly examined for 30 years. That was the point behind the Winsor report. We believe that that report will provide a good basis for discussion and consultation. This area has not been looked at for 30 years, and we think that it is right to look at it again now.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate]

My Lords, in the light of the security debacle mentioned by my noble friend Lord Grocott, does the Minister agree that when it comes to service, duty and commitment, public is quite often far preferable to private?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, that is another question. I praise the police force for all that it does. The noble Lord is a fine exemplar of the police service and we are proud to see him serving in this House as well. However, there are some areas where it is often better to use the private sector, and that is why we make use of it for such things as the security around sporting events. I do not think that the noble Lord would think that that would be a good use of police time or manpower.

EU Drugs Strategy: EUC Report

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Thursday 19th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate]

My Lords, I also speak as a member of the sub-committee of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. Can I start by thanking him for his chairmanship and for securing this very important and interesting debate?

Some 12 years ago I made a speech early in my membership of this House. It was on cannabis. I felt in a lonely position. I fear tonight that I might repeat the experience. My short speech will be informed by a 35-year career in policing, part of which was in the drugs squad of Durham Constabulary—which was then and I might add remains one of the finest police forces in the country.

Illegal drugs are a scourge in modern society. I think that we all agree on that. I have seen at first hand the misery, psychological damage and, yes, death, caused to young, old, rich and poor by improper drug use. Only last week we read in the press of two tragic but different cases. One was that of a psychologically damaged 26 year-old woman, Hannah Bonser, allegedly addicted to cannabis, who for no apparent reason attacked and stabbed Casey Kearney, a 13 year-old stranger. It was for no other reason, it appeared, than that she was being told in her head to do it. This case illustrates the damage that newer, more powerful cannabis can inflict on the mind and should be compulsory reading for those who would relax controls on this mind-altering substance. Bonser was convicted of murder and sentenced to life imprisonment.

The other case is totally different. It is of two people of mind-boggling wealth, Hans and Eva Rausing, living in a wealthy part of London in a £50 million house. They lived in squalor to indulge their addiction to hard drugs and it resulted in the death of Eva, who was only in her late 40s.

I mention these two cases to illustrate that the drug problem affects all classes, professions and ages. If allowed to flourish it can eat away at the very fabric of a normal, healthy society. As responsible parliamentarians in a nation state or in a European union of states, we have a duty to get right our strategy for dealing with the problem. We are here to discuss the strategy of the European Union, but that will naturally be informed by the individual experience of member countries.

In this short debate I would like to discuss two areas and base my comments on many years’ experience of dealing not just with drugs but criminal activity generally. The main thrust of illegal drug control should be the task of individual states, each with different problems and cultures. Subsidiarity in this area is the correct approach. How can the European Union assist? Clearly, the fight against drug trafficking goes wider than state boundaries. The various countries of the EU should work together, pooling resources and experience in the fight to prevent the movement of illegal drugs within and outside the Union.

One of the key weapons in the fight against drug trafficking is good intelligence. It is essential. Rather like prostitution and pornography, drug crime is often described as victimless. You rarely have a complainant reporting the matter. As the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, mentioned, the victim does not always come forward. There are victims, of course: the child in the pornographic film, the trafficked girl now working as a prostitute, the drug addict and his family, and the society that has to fund his treatment. They are all victims. Good intelligence is critical.

The difficulty is getting police officers, police forces and countries to share that intelligence. Before computerised databases we kept information on cards. The problem was getting detectives to put the information on the cards. Officers had a tendency to keep the information to themselves. When they were on leave or away sick, that valuable information was lost. Now that we have computerisation there is no excuse for that.

We saw from the inquiry chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, into the Soham murders in Cambridgeshire, that one of the main problems for the police was a lack of sharing intelligence. For that reason, one of the most important recommendations in our report before noble Lords today is paragraph 72. It states:

“The Government should fully support the Director of Europol in seeking to improve the use of Europol's unique databases and other facilities, and should urge other governments to do the same”.

Trafficking of course is the supply side of the problem. What about reducing demand? The criminal law has a part to play, as has education. Treatment, of course, is also essential, but it is a little late to go down that road when we should be trying to stop it happening in the first place. In our inquiry, the evidence from the Home Office was interesting in that our UK policies seem to be working. We were told by the drugs director that,

“drug use is actually falling in a number of countries across Europe”,

and that England is,

“showing some of the biggest reductions of drug prevalence across the EU … the fall is almost entirely due to reduction in the use of cannabis”.

To some extent, that was borne out in the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, who mentioned the reduction in the number of people trying to get treatment for drug addiction.

It made me smile when I put to witnesses who had perhaps a more liberal view than I that we must be doing something right in Britain. I got the response that we should treat the data with caution. Yet these are the very data used by that same lobby when drug offences were increasing. Of course, it then criticised the use of criminal sanctions. It is a classic case of shooting the messenger and using statistics rather like a drunk uses a lamp-post—more for support than illumination.

In conclusion, we need to change the culture of society. It is not impossible; we have done it before. We did it with drink-driving. Those who were convicted were punished and ostracised, and we increased the detection methods with roadside breath testing. I am very pleased that we are going to do the same with drug- driving, which is the cause of a relatively unknown number of deaths in this country. We also did it with smoking. We made it illegal to smoke in pubs and restaurants, and, I am pleased to say, in your Lordships’ House.

Most people do not like to be seen infringing the law and, over time, the culture of society changes. Peer pressure starts to have an effect, and this is living proof that there is a place for criminal sanctions, which can change society for the better. The European Union can assist in that endeavour. I commend the report to the House.

Olympic Games: Security

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Monday 16th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I do not think that is a point that I need to respond to.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate]

My Lords, in asking this question I declare an interest that is in the Lords register. Is the Minister aware of the advanced technical means of securing large perimeter areas by means such as radar, which obviously reduce the manpower required for these purposes? Is he aware that some 18 months ago an approach was made to the Olympic security authorities by a company that secured Sydney harbour in Australia? Presentations were given and considerable interest was shown by those who received the presentation but, unfortunately, there does not appear to have been any follow-up by those in charge of security at the Olympic authorities.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that technology can obviously always play a very important part in security but it would be a very rash and foolish Government who relied only on technology. In the end, one needs to have feet on the ground and to have people there who are properly trained and accredited to do the right job.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Tuesday 15th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate]

My Lords, it will not surprise your Lordships that in my short contribution to the debate this evening I intend to concentrate on matters concerning law and justice. Having spent 35 years as an operational police officer, I feel reasonably qualified to comment on this important area of policy.

I start on a positive note: I welcome the important intention to clamp down on driving under the influence of drugs. I campaigned for many years for the development of a roadside device that detects drugs in the body, similar to the breathalyser for alcohol. It seems that we are now in a position to move forward on that and I am delighted. I was amazed that those who advocated the relaxation and even legalisation of drug use always ignored the fact that more people would be driving under the hypnotic influence of drugs without our having the quick means of detecting them, with all the misery and tragedy that would follow due to deaths and injury on our roads. The prevalence of that has always been unmeasured but now we are developing the means to deal with this grossest of anti-social behaviour. All decent people in the country will welcome this proposal.

By popular acclaim, we have one of the best police forces in the world. It is not perfect—nothing is. Yet, simply based on the evidence of the training and advice that we give to other countries all over the world, people globally value the British policing model. Young men and women do not join the police to become millionaires—politics, business and the legal profession produce far more of those—but they expect to be treated fairly and decently for the public service that they provide.

In my view, one of the gravest disservices that we did to the police in this country was when we labelled the Metropolitan Police “institutionally racist”. I know that it has a technical meaning, but the message that it sent out to the man and woman on the beat was that they were seen as racists. It was seen as unfair and unjust. Even worse, it created a climate of risk aversion in the police. That was identified by HMIC. On the other side, even worse, the advantage was seized by people who were emboldened to play the race card.

I gave an example to your Lordships a couple of weeks ago when I described how I was accused of racism by the National Black Police Association and the Society of Black Lawyers for reporting the criminal activities of Commander Ali Dizaei, who subsequently went to prison. It was even worse than that, because false evidence was submitted to the clerk. It is wrong in principle that people who report wrongdoing are accused by means of being fitted up. I certainly took exception to that, even though the allegations were proved to be grossly false.

It is for that reason that I am so concerned that the coalition Government are on a collision course with the police, a body of people who cannot take industrial action and who, to be honest, have the lowest morale that I have ever known in my lifetime. They are even balloting later this year on the right to strike. What a pretty pass we have arrived at. What do the Government intend to do if the ballot proves positive and they vote for industrial rights? It is ironic that most police officers are inclined to be very conservative. Of course, they adored Margaret Thatcher, who supported and strengthened them—for political reasons; she is no fool. They were less sanguine about the right honourable and learned Kenneth Clarke, the current Lord Chancellor, who as Home Secretary in the early 1990s wheeled out Sir Patrick Sheehy, from British American Tobacco, to make the British police operate more like a business, with performance-related pay, short-term contracts and the like. That led to one of the largest police rallies ever, at Wembley. Ken Clarke’s successor, Michael Howard, now a distinguished Member of your Lordships’ House, listened carefully to the arguments and quickly abandoned the collision course previously set—incidentally, presiding at the same time over dramatic reductions in crime.

This Government have decided to politicise the police by bringing in elected police and crime commissars—sorry, commissioners. I have grave worries about that change. I have only known a non-political police force, but I have seen other models abroad. When I was a serving officer of senior rank working with Governments of both parties, nobody ever knew what my political leanings were—nor should they have. I swore allegiance to the Crown and served impartially under the law, to which I was accountable. The chief constable was accountable to the police authority, to the Home Secretary and, of course, to the law. The chief officer was very difficult to remove without agreement locally and nationally. There have been several cases where disputes took place on those issues. We are now placing the chief officer under the direct control of one political master, who could hire or fire him or her. I know that there is a commitment that commissioners will not get involved in operational matters, but experience of other jurisdictions, such as the United States, shows that appointments will be made of like-minded individuals and that those who do not play ball will not last very long in post.

However you wish to explain it, that is playing politics with our impartial policing system. In the main, elected commissioners will represent political parties, so party politics will have sway. It is sometimes difficult to separate policy from operational issues. I recall the centipede with severe arthritis going for advice to the wise old owl about his disability. “What you should do”, said the owl, “is transform yourself into a dormouse and hibernate throughout the winter. When you emerge in the spring, your arthritis will be gone and you will be fit and athletic for the summer”. “Thank you, wise old owl”, said the grateful centipede. As he walked—or limped—away, he said, “But tell me, how do I turn myself into a dormouse?”. “Don’t ask me”, said the owl, “I only make policy”. There we have the dilemma. There is a difficult dividing line between policy and operational matters.

Seriously, I hope that the concerns that I have outlined turn out to be groundless. No doubt we shall see. At the same time, of course, we have proposals by some chief officers to privatise certain parts of the policing role itself—not just backroom activities but, remarkably, the patrolling function and the investigation of crime. I believe that the public expect certain activities involving civil liberties and powers of detention and arrest to be performed by fully accountable sworn officers of the Crown. To bring in private bodies to investigate crime and to patrol the streets on the cheap would be a perversion of Sir Robert Peel’s vision in 1829. I can only hope for the election of a large number of police and crime commissioners who will not allow chief constables to implement such plans. Is that strategic or is it operations? I do not know. No doubt we will find out in due course.

In conclusion, I believe that the police service of this country is a national treasure, rather like your Lordships’ House. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Police: Racism

Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate Excerpts

Wednesday 25th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, taking the noble Lord’s first question first, he is right to talk about the importance of appropriate training, which all police forces are doing up and down the country. We will encourage them to continue doing so. As for his second question about low levels of diversity in the senior and specialist ranks of the police force, he is right to emphasise that point. It is important that we improve diversity at all levels and that police forces remain representative of the communities that they serve so that they can better understand their needs and ensure that the services they provide are appropriate. That is something that the leadership of police forces up and down the country is ensuring is done.

[Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate]

My Lords, in fighting racism, which the whole House will support, does the Minister agree that the routine use of the race card is not helpful? Is he aware that when I made a complaint to the commissioner about Commander Ali Dizaei—they were serious allegations—who subsequently went to prison, a complaint was lodged against me with the Clerk to this House, alleging racism and abuse of authority? That complaint was written on behalf of the National Black Police Association by the Society of Black Lawyers. Does he agree that those organisations that seek to represent their members should check the facts far more clearly when making serious allegations that can affect people’s reputation and even livelihoods, and that it is not helping the fight against racism?

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord makes a very important point about the problems that we are dealing with. What I want to get over is that we do not believe that the police are institutionally racist. It is very encouraging that in the case of the recent allegations the police officers themselves reported that issue, and it is evidence of the fact that there is no institutional racism in the police force. Obviously, cases will nevertheless come to light from time to time, and they must be dealt with in the most appropriate manner. That is why we are looking at the leadership of all police forces, and why we want ACPO and the Met to do their bit and the Mayor of London to do his bit—and in future we want police commissioners to do their bit—to make sure that racism is tackled at every possible level.