Syria and the Use of Chemical Weapons
Lord Naseby Excerpts(10 years, 8 months ago)
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Lord Naseby
My Lords, I ask the House to note that I have written a number of letters to the Prime Minister expressing my deep reservations about why we are involved in Syria at all. It seems to me that it is not in this country’s interests and never has been.
I also frankly do not approve of our policy in north Africa and the Middle East and have said so clearly. This crusade of western-type democracy to be imposed upon others with significantly different cultures from our own seems to have resulted in the chaos that we see now in Libya, Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan and the subject of today’s debate, Syria. If you look at Syria, a relatively young country created after the First World War, you will see that this is its fourth civil war. The war is not new to that country; this is just the current, awful manifestation.
As I look at the situation and the media coverage of the past few days, and the idea that we are going to launch a strike at any moment, I ask myself—my noble friend Lord Howell raised this—who in the world today believes that the United States, the United Kingdom and a couple of other countries should be policing the world? That is not what the vast majority of the world believes; it looks to the UN to provide that. We must work with the UN to make sure that that happens. However difficult it may be to deal with the Russians, the Chinese or anybody else, we have to find ways to work with them and to make that succeed.
Turning to the chemical weapons issue, on the last incident—I am amazed to hear that there were 14 other occasions; certainly I was not aware of them and would like to know why they were not more broadly publicised—we frankly still do not know who did it. We know that it happened. The House knows that I have had deep involvement in Sri Lanka and I know that evidence can be and is fabricated by rebel groups. I have seen it with my own eyes, with the Tamil Tigers’ accusations about certain of the actions of the Sri Lankan Government. Frankly, I do not believe that al-Qaeda is totally innocent in Syria; it may be and it would be wonderful if it was, but I wonder. If it was the Government, what was their motive? Was it a central government decision that there should be a sudden strike on a suburb of Damascus? Far more likely is the suggestion of my noble friend on the Liberal Benches that it was probably, possibly, a rogue element in the Syrian army. Let us reflect on what happened on our side in the Second World War. We had a number of rogue actions taken against government orders; that is not unusual in war and we should never forget that. That was, to a degree, the implication of what the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, said.
Should there be any military intervention? Frankly, those of us who have done a bit of gardening recently know that the worst possible thing you can do to a bonfire is to put petrol on it. The Middle East is a huge raging bonfire at this point in time. If we send in missiles of any sort—I speak as a former RAF pilot, as is my noble friend to my left—however good the pilot, the radar and the homing device may be, they can go wrong. As others have indicated, that could be catastrophic. For me, there should be no military intervention.
However, the West should do something. We have to do more in terms of diplomacy. I was privileged to go out and try to help in Sri Lanka and the Maldives immediately after the tsunami. I was amazed at the amount of support and help that was given to millions of people in Indonesia, India, Sri Lanka and the Maldives in a situation that killed well over 100,000 people overnight. There was a wonderful reaction by the Disasters Emergency Committee and equally wonderful reactions by numerous Governments. With all the experience that this country has in providing great NGOs, why on earth can we not take the lead on the humanitarian front and forget all about any military intervention?
Although he has just left the Chamber, I shall finish by saying how grateful I am to the Leader of the House, as well as to the Leader of the Official Opposition, for sitting through almost every speech. My only request is that, having done so, they should both make sure that the Prime Minister and the leader of the Opposition know the strength of feeling in this House.
Retail Prices Index
Lord Naseby Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Lord Naseby
To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the UK Statistics Authority overruled the recommendation and decision of the Office for National Statistics, following public consultation, to keep the Retail Prices Index as an official national statistic and whether they intend to challenge its downgrading.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, the board of the UK Statistics Authority accepted the recommendations of the National Statistician both to produce a new index, to be known as RPIJ, and to retain the RPI as it is currently constructed. RPIJ is constructed in a way that meets current international standards whereas RPI was judged not to meet those standards. Because of this, the designation of the RPI as a national statistic was removed by the UK Statistics Authority, following a statutory reassessment which confirmed the finding of the National Statistician’s consultation that its formulation failed to meet current international standards.
Lord Naseby
Is my noble friend aware that this is a UK statistic and that international standards on statistics are, frankly, a little irrelevant? After all, is it not the case that the Office for National Statistics changed its mind from the original proposition, based on strong representations from finance, commerce, industry and savers? In the light of that, will my noble friend make further suggestions to the UK Statistics Authority that it thinks again and puts that badge of quality back on the RPI?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I was not aware that either mathematics or statistics differed according to national boundaries. The only statistics course I took was in the United States. I should have thought that international standards—those of Eurostat, the International Labour Organisation and the IMF—are standards that the UK should follow without wishing to bring the defence of national sovereignty or hatred of the European Community into account.
Sri Lanka
Lord Naseby Excerpts(11 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Naseby
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment to date of the implementation of the independent report from the Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation Commission in Sri Lanka, and of the challenges facing Sri Lanka in implementing recommendations still outstanding.
Lord Naseby
My Lords, first, I thank colleagues who wish to say something about Sri Lanka this afternoon. I appreciate that very much indeed. I would like to place on record the fact that the noble Lords, Lord Bilimoria and Lord Sheikh, are in the sub-continent and send their apologies to the Committee for being unable to be here this afternoon.
As I think the Committee well knows, I have no interests to declare other than the fact that I have been interested in Sri Lanka for 50 years, since I first worked there for the Reckitt and Colman group in 1963. I had absolutely no political interests at all at that time. I have paid two key visits among many. One was in January 2009 at the height of the war, which seemed to me an appropriate time to go, if I may use that phrase, to see exactly what was happening. The second was earlier this year when the peace was firmly established.
This debate is about the LLRC, as I will call it in shorthand. It is not about the Supreme Court and what has happened there, although I will allude to that later in my contribution. A war lasting 30 years or thereabouts is a very long war. A number of colleagues in the House came through the Second World War, which lasted only five years. Change is inevitable when a war ends and Sri Lanka is no different from anywhere else in that respect. However, one thing was different in Sri Lanka. I remember the sheer joy of VE Day, as I am sure do others. Initially, there was a sense of sheer joy in Sri Lanka but it was very quickly clouded by allegations of war crimes and allegations that Sri Lanka had abused certain other international laws. My analysis leads me to the conclusion that one of the key reasons why this happened was that although the Tamil Tigers were defeated on the ground in Sri Lanka, the network that they had set up across the world was still intact, many of the senior operatives were still in place, certainly vast funding was still available, and the propaganda machine was alive and well in the sense that the propaganda was still being pumped out. That affected particularly the million or so members of the Tamil diaspora who had left because of the conflict. They were clearly leant on—we know this from the evidence gathered in many countries—and as a result western Governments understandably felt that they had to listen. Whether or not they felt that they had to act is another matter.
In my view, if today’s debate is to do any good, we need to look impartially at what has happened. The LLRC was set up on 15 May 2010, one year after the defeat of the Tigers and the end of the war. The very fact that it was set up deserves a tick as that was a good action. The more than 1,000 oral and more than 5,000 written submissions indicate that an awful lot of people responded to it. The key point is that the report was published in full, is extremely thorough and is based on the key principles of restorative justice rather than retributive justice. Those of us who know south and south-east Asia well will appreciate that it very much reflects the philosophy of the five principles of Buddhism and indeed the principles of Hinduism. People of real eminence in that society were appointed to the relevant body. Sri Lanka has been criticised for doing that and for not inviting international observers to participate. However, we chose to have “good eminent people” from our own Civil Service, and people from that sort of background, on our Chilcot commission. The report we are discussing was produced just over a year ago, whereas three years on we still do not have the Chilcot report and none of us really knows when it will come out.
The other people who were making noises at that time were the human rights groups, the International Crisis Group, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty. Sadly, each refused to give any evidence at all on the grounds that they did not like the make-up and, in their view, the independence of the eminent persons. I think that that is a great pity and shows non-objectivity on the behalf of those groups. I am astonished that Amnesty in Canada has now accepted funds from the LTTE. I find it quite extraordinary that a human rights group should receive funds from the LTTE. That is its right, I suppose, but it somewhat undermines its moral standing. Now those same three groups are chasing up the Sri Lankan Government and saying that they are acting far too slowly to implement the recommendations. And yet—I have done a little bit of research on this—all over the world there are quite a lot of investigations going on into former wars and dictatorships, and some of them are taking an extraordinary length of time. Some of them are taking 11, 12, or 15 years. To take two that we might know a bit more about, one is in Bangladesh, which is again in south Asia, which set up in 2011 an inquiry into what happened in the 1971 war of independence. That has not reported. And, dare I mention it having been PPS in Northern Ireland, the inquiry into Bloody Sunday has now gone on for 40 years and still remains totally unresolved.
So what has happened on the ground? That is by far and away the most important thing. First, when I got there in the end of March, all the way through to the middle of April, there was peace on the ground. There were no bombs; you can travel wherever you like in Sri Lanka, by day and by night, with no security checks. I spoke to a Tamil cook of a friend of mine—my friend is also Tamil—just outside Bentota. He had come down from Jaffna overnight, not requiring any special pass or anything; he booked a ticket in a bus station, got off at Colombo, changed buses, and came along the corridor through to Bentota. Asked by me whether he had had any problems, he said that he had no problems at all and that it was as easy as anything. So life for ordinary people in Sri Lanka is good at the moment. Plus, one has to say, British tourists have responded en masse—in fact, almost too readily in the sense that there is obviously a shortage of hotel accommodation, particularly in the east, where people want to go, and in the north, although they are trying hard to get on and build more hotels. So that is real positive benefit on the ground.
I went to Menik farm, where the 297,000 rescued from the war fled. First, I put on record that I saw the head of ICRC with no one else present and asked him whether ICRC was restricted from going into Menik farm. The answer was no. It is true that certain other UN bodies were restricted but, in my book—as one that has done a number of these types of events—ICRC, or the Red Cross, are the key people. Secondly, my wife is a qualified retired doctor and we looked at the reports on malnutrition to see whether there was malnutrition in those coming into the camp, and there was hardly any at all. I shall not go into the food dimension but I do have data on that. That place is now closed and those 297,000 are now all rehoused, which is pretty good in that time span: near enough 300,000 rehoused in a relatively short period. On top of that, a number of the Muslims, who were ethnically cleansed out of Jaffna by the Tamil Tigers, have also been rehoused.
Demining is happening and I say a big thank you to the UK Government, both the former Labour Government and the coalition Government, for the money given to Halo, which is doing a good job on the ground. I spent a whole day with Halo: the team is very good and I thank DfID and, in particular, the Government. I make a plea that when that work is completed somebody does an analysis on Jaffna’s needs and, in particular, the hospital, which I went to look at in some depth. I would be very happy to prepare a draft paper if that was found to be helpful.
The rehabilitation of combatants has been excellent and there is a good case history. Eleven thousand of them have been rehabilitated, with 260 judicially mandated. Child soldiers, of whom there were 595, are all now back with their families. Land issues are being taken very seriously but are proving very difficult to resolve after 30 years. The situation is not unlike that in England, where if you own a bit of land for 12 years you have legal rights to it; I think that it is 10 years in Sri Lanka. The high-security zone, which I visited, is down to 40% of what it was. It has to remain because of the problems in Tamil Nadu. The country’s massive infrastructure, housing and official language policy are all working well. A great issue has been made of abductions. I have looked at the figures: in 2011 there were 239, with 226 now traced; in 2012 there were 225, with 207 now traced.
Lord Naseby
No, I have been speaking for 10 minutes. I am taking injury time. I am taking my time from the annunciator.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn)
The debate started at exactly 4.30 pm, so you are now in the 11th minute.
Lord Naseby
With great respect, Lord Deputy Chairman, if a time is up there, it is the time that I am speaking from. I cannot look down here.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
It is the time for the Chamber. I am sorry, but that is what that is showing.
Lord Naseby
With the permission of the Committee, I should like two minutes to wind up.
On the numbers killed, four reports have come out recently. One was produced by the UN Country Team, which was never published. My plea to Her Majesty's Government is to ask for that to be published. That indicated that 7,000 were killed. A satellite analysis by the Americans indicates that fewer than 2,000 were killed within the graves that can be found. The recent census by Tamil teachers, again, indicates that just over 7,000 were killed. There were not 40,000 killed.
The second problem that the Government of Sri Lanka face is the ever-present threat of the LTTE overseas and the propaganda that is put out. However, Sri Lanka is an excellent member of the Commonwealth. It helped the UK in its hour of need at the time of the Falklands. There are those who, I know, want to downgrade the conference, but what greater stimulus can there be to Sri Lanka today to move forward on the areas that still have to be dealt with than to hold this conference? After all, the CPA held its conference back in September, attended by 700 parliamentarians from 54 countries. That went extremely well, as are preparations for the forthcoming conference.
Here we are in the Moses Room. I suggest that we need the wisdom of Solomon and the patience of Job, and let us not forget Kipling’s remarks that,
“A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East”.
Lord Triesman
My Lords, I join others in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Naseby. I, too, have read the report very carefully. It has real strength but it also has significant weaknesses, and I think that it is as well to look at the balance. After all, it covers a war which raged from 1983 to 2009, with pauses in it until Velupillai Prabhakaran was killed. Whatever is said about the figures, an estimate of between 60,000 and 100,000 deaths looks to be relatively credible in terms of the reports made by international bodies. I certainly have no reason to think that they are much in doubt. As my noble friend Lord Wills said—
Lord Naseby
I hate to intervene but there is no credible report that mentions 60,000-plus deaths. There are reports of 40,000 deaths from the UN and there are reports of between 7,000 and 8,000 from other UN bodies. If the noble Lord has a copy of any such report, I should be grateful if he would make it available to me, as chairman of the all-party group.
Lord Triesman
My Lords, I will go back through the UN figures and will provide the ones that I have seen. I was going to go on to say, as my noble friend Lord Wills did, that it appears that in the final stages the figure of up to 40,000 comes near to the death toll. The 18-month inquiry, which concluded in November 2011, covers all 26 years.
One thing is absolutely plain to me: in any civil war of that duration and intensity, the pain between the combatants and the communities from which they come is going to be very great. Significant inter-communal violence, which is very up-close, raw violence, has on the occasions when it has occurred led to the division of countries—for example, India and Pakistan—rather than to an attempt to keep one country in one form.
It is certainly true, as the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, said, that one sees a good deal more evidence of peace, which is very good news, but it is also true that there are credible reports of civil rights abuses. I add my appreciation to that already expressed for the United Kingdom forces involved in the de-mining exercise. I had the great privilege of being with those forces in Colombia in South America and saw just how amazing and dangerous their work was. I remember how relieved one felt to be able to go away at the end of a phase when they could not always do so.
Both sides have made credible claims; both have eye-witness accounts; and both seek retribution. One side has sought prosecution of perpetrators, with greater emphasis focused, perhaps understandably, on the shelling of hospitals, which, by common consent, caused considerable civilian casualties. However, I also note that the commission expressed findings even on this issue, stating that it was impossible to say who had been responsible for that shelling.
The report contains findings on many other issues. It apportions blame for the causes of the war pretty evenly between politicians on both sides. It makes it clear that there were no steps taken by the Sinhalese which could have placated the Tamil people. It makes it clear that Tamil politicians worked up passions for militant separation which were impossible to accede to.
While there was support for the report, there has also been significant criticism. A lack of independence in the report has been alleged. Not even minimum international standards of protection of witnesses was accorded to many of those who might have given evidence.
However, I share a view with the noble Lord, Lord Naseby: that the decisions of Amnesty International, the International Crisis Group and Human Rights Watch not to take any part can scarcely have helped the process. It would have been better had they taken part and I am not sure that their reasons for not doing so are sustainable.
Many of the commission’s recommendations could be detailed very extensively, but I highlight those to deal with long-term detainees individually, to publish full lists, to ensure that freedom meant freedom—that is, once people had been released, they should not be re-arrested—to overcome legal delays in process, to disarm illegal groups immediately as a priority, to ensure that there is free movement in the country, to normalise civil administration and to make sure that documents were in languages that people could understand. Like the noble Lord, Lord Bates, I often feel—maybe I would—that sport can play a significant role in giving people the opportunity to see each other in circumstances that are not quite so gruesome.
However, people plainly want more, and herein lies the central dilemma. Reconciliation processes seldom satisfy those who have suffered the sharpest distress or grievances. No one in the United Kingdom would willingly accept any process where there was impunity. I do not know that it would ever speak well in our culture; nor do I think that it would speak well in anybody’s culture, because people want their most serious grievances addressed. As we have seen elsewhere, retributive justice after a war of this kind is very unlikely to achieve reconciliation—these are not easy choices to make—but that does not answer the question of impunity. That is why it is an audacious route to take to seek reconciliation in this way and why it is seldom welcomed by all those who seek complete justice or even confirmation that the evidence that they have provided, and on which they rely, is the only accepted truth that should be accounted for.
I am with the noble Lords, Lord Willis and Lord Dholakia, in believing that one has to be clear on both sides about the conditions for success if this is the route that one wants to take. The first condition is that there should be sufficient independence in the inquiry to command support—and I support what Her Majesty’s Government have said about that, which is useful and correct.
Secondly, reconciliation can work fully in my view, even against all the odds, only if substantive outcomes can be achieved in the programme of reconciliation that is recommended. I make these points here not because the international groups have all written to me and urged that they should be made but because I hope for the success of the country and want to think about how that might be achieved. The outstanding evidence is clear; the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, referred to the first and perhaps most important point, that political processes have to encapsulate the rights for all groups and the rule of law, and that is fundamental. The aid agencies must be able to reach those needing aid, especially with medicines and medical facilities. I do not believe that there is evidence that that has fully happened, and I wonder whether the Minister has an observation on that.
There are clear failings in the existing IHL regime in respect of internal conflicts in both state and non-state armed groups. Does the Minister feel that there may be progress there? A large number of allegations have been made of abduction, arbitrary detention and disappearances—what is called a different kind of white van syndrome. There do not seem to me to be such clear outcomes as have been presented, and I wonder whether the Minister has views on that. I know from the work that was done in Argentina and Chile that, until those issues are fully nailed down, the families do not go away—and you can understand why. It will never satisfy them. The independent police commission has to function properly, and I am not absolutely clear from what I have read that it does function. I wonder whether the Minister has any observation.
I make one quick observation on Channel 4. Jon Snow is, in my view, one of the outstanding journalists of this generation. He has amazing standards and amazingly good personal, ethical values, which contrast with some others in the media. Yet questions persist about the authenticity of some of the footage of “Sri Lanka’s Killing Fields”. It is not for the Minister, but could Parliament perhaps encourage “Channel 4 News” to consider whether it has been deceived in any respect?
Electoral Register
Lord Naseby Excerpts(12 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Naseby
My Lords, will the Minister look at the situation in Australia, where there is compulsory voting and the register is highly accurate?
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I am not sure how highly accurate the Australia system is. People move in Australia, too, particularly in cities, and young people tend to avoid these things. I am not sure that there would be sentiment for compulsory voting as a basis in Britain, but perhaps we will test that as we take the Bill through the House.