Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Lord Patten Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for moving his amendment. I know that he has spoken before about the powers that are being given to Ministers in this respect. The amendment seeks to remove the ability of the Government to make designations by description which cover groups of people. It would mean that we could designate individual persons only when we knew their names.

Picking up a point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer—I hear what he said—I assure the Committee that we will always seek to designate by name wherever possible. We anticipate that the power to designate by description will be rarely used, for reasons that I will set out shortly. But, as I hope to explain to the Committee, it remains a useful tool for the imposition of sanctions. The noble Lord, Lord Lennie, commented just now that some exceptions might apply. That is exactly the kind of exception for which we want to ensure these powers will allow us to apply sanctions.

It is important that this proposal is seen in its proper context. Sectoral sanctions—those aimed at groups or sectors rather than individuals—remain a vital foreign policy and national security tool. The ability to designate by description also enables us to refer to lists of designated persons produced by others, such as the United Nations. To have a single list to look at will reduce the administrative burden upon business. It will also enable us to target particular entities within a given sector: for example, state-owned banks operating in a particular market. Finally, it will enable us to target groups of persons, such as members of a terrorist group—for example, the Hezbollah military wing.

In some cases—they may be few but there will be exceptions—we will not be able to identify all members of a group by name. But it remains important that those members are subjected to sanctions, to prevent them using their funds and assets to commit terrorist crimes. We are also cognisant of the difficulties that this might cause to banks; the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, raised this issue. We accept that a designation by description will be harder for them to implement, but I hope that I can offer a few reasons why this power should be retained despite the difficulties that have been highlighted.

First, as I have said, we will always seek to designate by name where we can and this power will be used very rarely. Secondly, when we use this power we will provide as much information as possible to assist institutions, such as banks and other businesses, to carry out their obligations under the sanctions. Thirdly, it may sometimes be necessary to impose these types of sanctions to cover groups of persons where, as I have said, not all the names of members are not known. Fourthly, banks and businesses carry out their own customer assessments and are well placed to carry out their obligations under sanctions. They also have their own compliance procedures, which enable them to identify persons subject to sanctions and can be used to assist them to identify members of a group. For example, if we designate a group of persons acting in a geographical area, the compliance systems can then be used to pick up economic activity in that area and trigger a deeper investigation into the relevant account holders.

If this amendment were to be accepted, we would be unable to impose these kinds of measures in the cases that I have illustrated. This provision needs to remain to ensure that sanctions can be used as an effective tool for not just foreign policy but, importantly, national security. Noble Lords have alluded to the difficulties, which I fully acknowledge, but I hope that I have offered some degree of reassurance in the context of how they might be overcome.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, also mentioned the phrase “connected to” and designation by description in primary legislation. The issue remains that the connections and descriptions can be context-specific. For example, what is applied under counterterrorism sanctions may not be applied under Russian sanctions, hence the proposal to include these definitions as regulations. That said, he also referred again to the reports by the two committees. As I alluded to earlier, we are reflecting on the specific points that they have raised, including the one that the noble and learned Lord raised in the context of this debate. I will return to those points and reflect—

[Lord Patten (Con)]

I apologise for not having entered into the debate at an earlier stage but I have been reflecting on what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, said about the importance of legislation being specific. I also reflect on the fact that, working in the financial services as I do, I often see names but we are never quite sure who is behind the names. It may therefore be necessary to have a secondary back-up power to address the groups of unspecified people who one thinks are behind those whose names are specified. Much in the spirit of the noble and learned Lord, I suggest to my noble friend that he may wish to reflect on whether there is some way of specifying in the Bill that these are reserved powers, to be used under particular circumstances. That might well reassure those who feel that they are too overarching.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Lord Patten Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th December 2017 Lords Chamber

I drafted the amendments to show what a slightly more predictable outcome might look like in conjunction with the money laundering regulations. I beg to move.

[Lord Patten (Con)]

My Lords, rising for the second time during Committee, I remind the Committee, as on the previous occasion, that I have interests in the financial services world. Having declared that, I must also declare that I love the new concept that the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, has introduced of not a probing amendment but a “probing probing amendment”, which is exactly what Hansard will, now that I have repeated it, have to record tomorrow for posterity. This will go down over the centuries and may be multiplied in many more ways.

I am fascinated by the point that she made about the read across from EU directives, but I rise to make a “probing speech”—I am more modest—about whether we need to take account in our discussion in Committee today of the announcement that the EU made only yesterday, 5 December, when the Economics Commissioner for the first time blacklisted 17 countries for money laundering. This is the first time that the EU has ever done this. It included Barbados and Grenada. It also grey listed—that is, put on watch—a whole load more, including British territories such as the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, Bermuda and the Cayman Islands, for possible money laundering. Do we need to consider this? It is a listing, not a directive, but it is linked to what the EU specifically called “aggressive tax avoidance”, which is what we are very concerned about and do not want to see.

This is the first time that the European Union has gone into this issue. Commissioner Moscovici has urged all members to continue to agree on “dissuasive national sanctions”—believe me, Hansard, those are the words he used: “dissuasive national sanctions”. I thought that we had long ago done just this, in this country and in other international fora, when we produced endless lists of countries that should or should not be under the cosh of being blacklisted or grey listed. Do we need any more of this? Were we involved with the EU in discussing whether there should be blacklisting or “grey” listing of the countries? Did we try to dissuade it from going around the same old course again and making it very much more complicated in this first, highly immature step into such listings?

My probing question is: do we approve of what the EU has done? My second probing question is: does it relate to the Bill in any way, and should we be concerned with it, because I strongly support the Bill?

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Patten, may be very interested in the next group of amendments, given the theme that he has just raised. He may have raised it because he cannot remain for that group, but if he has the opportunity, he will get a thorough response to the questions that he has just raised—possibly not from the Government, but certainly from other Benches.

I rise to explain the origin of this particular amendment. This came as a consequence again from the meetings that the Minister very kindly was able to offer to discuss the content of the Bill. The Minister will be aware of how strongly I feel about the importance of keeping the democratic process embedded in creating anti-money laundering legislation by essentially taking those powers that are undertaken by the European Parliament and the Council and transferring them to this Parliament, rather than to government Ministers and executive control. That is the underlying issue that essentially faces this Bill, and we discussed some of that earlier.

When we were in that discussion and proposed something very simple—the text of Amendment 68A, which took the existing 2017 regulations, put them on to the face of the Bill and then said they could be amended only by primary legislation in order to make sure that that democratic process continued—two primary issues were raised with us. First, it was said that sometimes action would need to be fast-tracked. We took care of that, as your Lordships who were here will remember, under Amendment 69A, which provided a fast-track mechanism for those moments of emergency. However, I notice from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee report that, when it probed to try to find examples of those emergencies, the FCO could not come up with a single one, which the committee was not very impressed by. But let us accept that there are times when there are emergencies—and there certainly is a role that FATF plays—so we made a carve-out for that.

The second issue that was raised with us was that it would be impossible to change in the Bill the language of regulations tied to the European Union and convert it over to a UK equivalent—that was almost too impossible for anybody who was sitting there drafting the Bill even to contemplate. The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, who is a fearsome drafter, very rapidly took pen to paper and drafted an amendment which pretty much does that. She accepts that the amendment may not be absolutely perfect, but she does not have the resources or legal staff that the department has available to do the checks and complete conversions. I believe that this particular transposition took about an hour, and I think that anybody on the government Benches would agree that, in terms of making that shift, the amendment probably does 98% to 99% of what is necessary and is in need of only a little refinement.

The amendment makes it clear to the Government, since such a challenge was thrown down, that there is a very simple way—it is a relatively short new clause—to cover what, apparently, was one of the primary obstacles or difficulties for moving through the primary legislation route. This would leave the policy framework and principles in place as part of a democratic process, rather than requiring that all of those be abandoned and we just go to a regulation process on these very fundamental issues.

As my noble friend has said, these provisions can place great burdens on business and—we will come on to this later—can lead to the creation of criminal offences, with imprisonment for up to two years; can define the defences available against prosecution; can put in place new supervisors and change the powers of those supervisors; and can redefine every other piece of legislation that uses the phrase “terrorist financing”, using sweeping wide powers.

I understand the Government would have loved to have been able to do that in primary legislation but could not see a way through and was therefore forced to try and do this through a regulatory mechanism. This amendment is just one of those examples that makes it clear that it can be done, and I hope the Government will take it seriously.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bates]

My noble friend is right, and I am sorry if I have not been very clear on this. The key point was that the stylistic terms “grey list” and “blacklist”, which may be for general convenience, were not reflected in what we were saying—rather, it is a demonstration of commitments by the 30 jurisdictions named to address the concerns of the EU Code of Conduct Group. So we are more discussing the semantics of the terms that might be used to describe a jurisdiction which is complying or not complying, or progressing or not progressing, towards addressing concerns of the Code of Conduct Group.

[Lord Patten]

It is extremely important that we have the terminology right. If I have got it wrong, I apologise to the territories involved. I think—I ask my noble friend to reflect on this—that it is perfectly daft to put a British Overseas Territory such as Bermuda on a list of whatever shade of grey, because I believe that it is a very upright outfit and a suitable, well-run territory for financial services, and I do not believe that it is involved in money laundering. But it has been fingered in reports, and Commissioner Moscovici said yesterday that it was on some sort of grey list. We need a certain amount of clarity, because it is damaging to those people who do business with Bermuda. So I agree with my noble friend.

[Lord Bates]

That is a good point.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Lord Patten Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 24th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the Minister and the Bill team for what the Minister accurately described as the collaborative co-engagement on the Bill. It has been quite remarkable and exceptional, and I am very grateful to him. My only regret is that, personally, I prefer a good argument—it may be my professional training—but I realise we are not here for my personal gratification. I very much look forward—perhaps the Minister may communicate this to his colleagues on the Front Bench—to the same collaborative engagement, co-operation and desire to accommodate concerns when we consider any other Bill that may come before this House in the weeks ahead.

[Lord Patten (Con)]

My Lords, your Lordships may need reminding that, before this excellent Bill was introduced, between April and June last year, some 30,000 people and companies were asked for their views. Just 34 responded with any views in writing. Since its introduction, however, the Bill has received the line-by-line scrutiny expected of your Lordships’ House in Committee. Even I had a go, once or twice.

No one could fairly say that it has not been scrutinised thoroughly before it journeys to another place. There certainly have been some tussles but, below the surface, it has received broad all-party support. This is welcome from the Opposition Benches and Cross Benches, of course—just as some of us, a few years back, in opposition, spoke in equally strong support of the eventual Bribery Act 2010, when ably introduced to Parliament by the then Justice Secretary Jack Straw, whose contribution certainly should not be forgotten. I believe the Bribery Act is still the toughest anti-corruption legislation anywhere in the world, raising the bar far above the earlier US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Similarly, if passed by another place and then passed by us again, the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill will become its absolute twin, as it were, giving us again another globally tough measure to match the Bribery Act, and marching in step with it.

We must remember that bribery, sanctions breaking and money laundering are very often in practice very closely intertwined. One key test of the legislation before your Lordships’ House is its ability to go beyond the big or top players, right down through the supply chains of corruption via intermediaries, and then down through them to minor actors and mere runners—indeed, that cascade of responsibility referred to so aptly by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted. How right she was. The Bill as amended by your Lordships does just that, as globally we work against terrorism and in favour of maintaining and strengthening the integrity of our financial system, as we have since 1989, when the UK as a key player was one of the G7, which first set up the Financial Action Task Force.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, I add my thanks to everyone involved in the Bill. I start by thanking my own team, my noble friend Lord Lennie and my noble and learned friend Lord Davidson. These people do not often get thanked publicly, but I thank also the team in the Labour opposition office, including Catherine Johnson, who did a particularly good job in helping me to be well prepared for my numerous meetings with the Minister.

I also thank the Lib Dem Benches, particularly the noble Baronesses, Lady Northover, Lady Kramer and Lady Bowles. We, again, had numerous meetings. One thing that the Minister omitted to mention—he mentioned all the time that we spent in Committee, in the Chamber, scrutinising the Bill—was that we spent substantial time in meetings outside the Chamber. In fact, the Minister got quite anxious at one point when I turned up to meetings with the noble Lord, Lord Faulks. I am sure he felt that I was in the wrong meeting at the time. We had very good cross-party and cross-Bench support, and I add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. We now have a better Bill. It is not necessarily a good Bill in all respects, but it is a much better one than what was originally delivered.

I also pay tribute and thanks to the Bill team, particularly Louise Williams, Adam Morley and Jennifer Budniak, and of course the lawyers. I think I had the most pleasure dealing with the lawyers, and I hope Luke Barfoot and Michael Atkins enjoyed those exchanges as well. They did a terrific job; they are great public servants and, again, they deserve our thanks and gratitude. Obviously, as the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, said, their work will continue.

One thing that surprised me was that at one of the lengthy meetings I had with the Minister, the BBC fly-on-the-wall cameras were there. I hope to God it is better than the programme it did on the House of Lords. I certainly hope I come across much better than some noble Lords did, but let us wait and see—I do not know when it will come out.

My final thanks, of course, go to the Minister. He said at the beginning of this Bill, “I am in listening mode” and I know we joked about that, but honestly, he has listened and his responses prove how much he listened. I am very grateful to him for dealing with us so well on this Bill.