HMS “Victory”

Debate between Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn and Lord Lingfield

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Lingfield]

My Lords, I must at once declare an interest as the chairman of the Maritime Heritage Foundation, the owners of the wreck of HMS “Victory”. I hasten to add that neither I, nor any of the charity’s trustees or their families, have any pecuniary interest in HMS “Victory” or in Odyssey Marine Exploration, which, as we have heard, discovered the wreck site in 2008.

As a result of a lengthy government consultation ending in 2010, the MoD gifted the wreck to the foundation. The foundation’s was the only offer made archaeologically to recover the artefacts. It is important to realise that the MoD could gift only such items on the site that clearly belonged to the state in 1744; any private goods there could not be so gifted, and should any be found they must be by law declared to the Receiver of Wreck.

I first heard of this ship—the HMS “Victory” before Nelson’s—when I was a small boy and my grandfather took me to Westminster Abbey to see the large memorial to Admiral Sir John Balchen, who we have heard went down with her. Sir John had no Balchen descendants, and I am delighted to meet today my noble kinsman, undiscovered previously. As the head of the remaining branch of the family, I paid personally for the considerable repair needed to his monument, which features HMS “Victory”, in the 1970s.

Odyssey has, without doubt, the world’s most experienced deep-ocean archaeology team and an exceptional record of research publications. My foundation had no hesitation in contracting with it for archaeological services for the HMS “Victory” site. Indeed, I made it clear in my submission to the government consultation that we were minded to do so. Odyssey is an entirely reputable company, which is currently contracted, after due diligence, with the Department for Transport to remove silver from two merchant ships that were sunk by enemy action in the two world wars. Odyssey is likely to pay some £10 million to the department, of which a quarter has already been passed over, within the next 12 months, and is likely to make a profit itself of approaching £100 million, so I am told. However, it has undertaken to do HMS “Victory” work ultimately at its own risk. The wreck was gifted to the Maritime Heritage Foundation by the MoD on the strict condition that no artefacts that have been state property would be deaccessioned without the permission of the Secretary of State for Defence—that permission not to be unreasonably denied.

The foundation has been fortunate to appoint as chairman of its scientific advisory committee perhaps the greatest of UK marine archaeologists, Dr Margaret Rule CBE, who supervised the recovery of the “Mary Rose” and who approves, with a group of eminent marine archaeologists, our every step. We and our contractors, Odyssey, can take no action without the permission of the MoD, which—as we have heard—has its own advisory panel.

There are three other important aspects to this. First, as we have heard, at only 300 feet down, the wreck is not preserved in some watery aspic. It is constantly shifting with the tides and changing daily. Secondly, this is one of the most trawled over sites in the English Channel and artefacts on the site show the most clear drag damage from heavy trawler bottom gear, as the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, said. Thirdly, and most worrying of all, is theft. Clearly visible on the site are dozens of bronze cannon bearing the arms of King George II. The 42-pounders are quite unique. Already, at least one cannon has been confirmed as stolen and is in the hands of the Dutch police. It has already suffered damage from lack of any preservation care. Another is missing, probably lifted with a simple crane.

While we are speaking of inappropriate exploitation, I have no need to remind your Lordships that hundreds of this country’s bronze war memorials have been stolen for melting recently. A Tudor bell in the church of St Lawrence, Faversham, was stolen last week. On the wreck are hundreds of tonnes of bronze, there for the taking. The wreck is no longer sovereign immune. As the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, pointed out, being in international waters there is no legal mechanism by which it can now be protected. Only Odyssey’s regular presence on and monitoring of the site, at its own expense, has so far protected it.

In May this year, the MoD’s advisory panel, on which sits an English Heritage representative, unanimously agreed that there was a serious threat to many of the artefacts and requested that the foundation produce an urgent archaeological project design to lift those items that are visibly in danger of theft or damage. After consultation with Dr Margaret Rule and her team, the foundation submitted that design in June and pledged itself to do this work using the highest quality archaeological techniques, recording, and research.

The foundation’s aim is to recover, conserve and exhibit all cultural artefacts from the site in UK museums, if that proves possible. The foundation has a deaccession protocol similar to that of the British Museum but I repeat that no items may be deaccessioned without the permission of the Defence Secretary. No trenching has begun and no artefacts have so far been removed from the sea’s bottom, nor will be until the project design is approved. These are the protections that my foundation and the MoD have built in and I trust that your Lordships will be reassured by them. These important and highly valuable artefacts have much to tell us about HMS “Victory” and why it sank, and the history of the Royal Navy in the mid-18th century. This is why we shall recover and conserve them as soon as possible.

[Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn]

How does the Maritime Heritage Foundation propose to pay for the recovery of artefacts without selling them?

[Lord Lingfield]

The Maritime Heritage Foundation is a charity and it will make an appropriate report about its finances to the Charity Commission at the end of its financial year and then, presumably, such things will be revealed.