Immigration Bill

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Monday 10th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

What an excellent debate this has been, my Lords. I have counted 16 speakers on one side, and one on the other. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, on putting his head above the parapet. Although I think he picked up some of the arguments, I did not think his heart was entirely in it, but he put up a brave show. There was lots of vigorous nodding on the Front Bench, but all to no avail.

This amendment seeks to exempt bona fide overseas students from the provisions relating primarily to housing and health charges because I do not think, despite the fact that the amendment says so, that bona fide students are caught by the measures on bank accounts and driving licences, but I would be grateful if the Minister would confirm that when he responds.

This amendment has received considerable support from around the House. We should not really be surprised at that. I took part in a debate about nine months ago that was led by the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, whose committee had reported on just this point. That debate was again virtually unanimous in recommending that the Government’s then policies should be reviewed carefully to ensure that they supported the arrival and proper education of students from overseas, but here we are.

There seem to be two main thrusts to the arguments which have been made by noble Lords today: first, that this series of measures is one of a number of hurdles and burdens that, taken together, represent an attack on our universities, making it more difficult for students from overseas to study here and thereby endangering one of our most successful exports; and secondly, that the measures are unworkable, possibly discriminatory and overly bureaucratic, will not achieve what they set out to do and should be withdrawn. We have a great deal of sympathy with both those arguments, and we will be listening carefully to what the Minister has to say on the questions that have been raised this afternoon, and I am certain that we will be returning to this matter on Report.

At Second Reading, I referred to the recent BIS publication International Education: Global Growth and Prosperity. Its introduction states:

“There are few sectors of the UK economy with the capacity to grow and generate export earnings as impressive as education”.

It goes on:

“Overseas students who come to Britain to study make a huge contribution to our economy”.

As we have heard, the most recent estimates are that overseas students paid about £10.2 billion net in tuition fees and living expenses in the UK. They boost the local economy where they study as well as enhancing our cultural life and broadening the educational experience of the UK students they study alongside.

This BIS report makes it clear that attracting international students is not an easy matter and that we have many competitors. If the numbers of international students in higher education is to stay as it is or even to grow, there are a number of things we must do right. The report picks out that,

“we must show that the UK values international students, will provide a warm welcome and support while they are here and will keep in touch after they go home".

The questions for the Minister when he comes to reply are, first, whether the measures proposed in the Bill support the assertion made by the Government that the UK is open for international students and that they are welcome to come here; and secondly whether the measures in this Bill help, not hinder, both that general supposition and the reality faced by overseas students in gaining a visa and making a success of their studies here.

There are a number of other questions that I hope the Minister will respond to. He has a good record, not of answering across the Dispatch Box, but at least in writing to us, and I hope he will pick up the various points that have been made. As I was listening, the questions that struck me included: has the department an assessment of the continuing viability of certain STEM courses in particular, of courses offered in higher education in general, and of certain institutions as a result of the decline in student numbers that we think will happen if these measures are introduced? This was spoken to very positively by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and others. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, wanted to know more about the impact on soft power. Have the Government made an assessment of the reduction of soft power as a result of these measures? Has the Minister talked to the CBI about its call for changes in the way in which the visa arrangements operate for various important aspects of supporting the economy? Has the department made an assessment of competitor countries, such as Canada and Australia, and their measures for supporting overseas students? If it has done that, will the Minister put a copy of the evidence in the Library so that we can look at it, because it would make interesting reading? What assessment has the department made of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, about personal contact? That is something that we all have experience of and recognise. He said that we cannot measure it in economic terms, and he may be right, but I think you probably could value it. It is certainly important in terms of the world that we live in.

In the commentary circulated after Second Reading, the Minister did not really engage with the issues that have been raised this afternoon. He wafted away rather airily some of the points made by several speakers and did not feel that the discouragement of international students would affect the way they choose the UK, although we have heard differently today. I think the view around the Committee is that these additional procedures and costs will create the impression that it is harder to secure a visa to study in the UK than it is in other countries. Even if that is not the case, it will add significantly to the up-front visa cost compared to our competitors. What evidence is there that the Home Office recognises the risks it is taking in relation to our competitiveness in this market?

On the detailed points, residential accommodation has attracted the most attention. There is no suggestion from what we have read from the Government that they have any interest in how this system must look to prospective students. As we have heard, international students already face difficulties in securing accommodation and are often made to pay large fees and advance rent payments. As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, reminded us, this Bill may result in landlords refusing even to consider international students as tenants or charging higher rents or additional fees to cover the extra hassle and administration costs. Does the Minister not agree that this clause could cause considerable anxiety and could add to the perception that the UK is unwelcoming?

In the Minister’s commentary, he said:

“I do not think the measures would discourage private landlords from letting to international students”,

because,

“landlords in our university towns and cities are familiar with their clientele and know that they represent a sound and stable choice of tenant for their properties, in the main for at least an academic year if not longer”.

So that is okay then. To his credit, the Minister conceded in his commentary that certain categories of student accommodation would be exempted from the landlord’s provisions and said,

“we will look closely at the rationale for doing so when we consider this in Committee”.

I look forward to his further thoughts on this important point this evening.

Some noble Lords raised the position of international students who need to arrange accommodation in advance of their arrival. In the commentary, the Minister said:

“The Government intends to make regulations under the Bill which will provide for overseas students to be able to arrange accommodation in advance of taking up their studies in the UK, and for such tenancies to be entered into conditional on the production of the relevant visa or residence permit when the student arrives and takes up residence”.

It would be useful if we can have further information on that because it is clearly a very important point.

Given that overseas students with the requisite visa are often offered accommodation owned or administered by the university which is offering them a place, why does the Bill not recognise this and simply exempt all such university-provided accommodation, including the currently exempted halls of residence?

A number of noble Lords expressed concerns about the proposed introduction of the NHS charges. The main argument seems to be that international students and staff already make a significant contribution to the UK economy. International students bring in over £10 billion a year, while international academic staff pay taxes and national insurance while they are here.

The Government’s plans are for a health surcharge for access to NHS services of about £200 in general and £150 a year for students. As the noble Earl, Lord Howe, said in his letter to all noble Lords, over a working life, the payment of taxes and NI contributions usually provides a contribution to the NHS but new arrivals have not yet done so, and are not likely to be able to build up the long-term commitment and contribution that those permanently settled here have made. We do not object to the principle, since it is legitimate for those who are coming to partake in the system to make a contribution, particularly when the NHS is under pressure, but it is legitimate to press the Minister on whether a one-off cost, payable in full at the time that the visa is obtained, is actually in the best interests of our commitment to overseas students. That is the question.

A couple of other questions were raised during the debate, and I shall mention them for completeness. Has the department done any research to test whether this new system will discourage undergraduate and postgraduate applications and, if it has, will the Minister place a copy in the Library so that we can look at it? As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said, given that the Bill deals mainly with illegal immigrants, not those with leave to be present, why is Clause 33 really necessary? The point here is that the students are already covered by the visa application. Surely that can be considered sufficient on this point. Can the Minister when he responds, or separately in writing, give us the argument for the £50 discount on students? It is £200 for most people but £150 for students. If there are reasons for that, I would be interested to know what the economic argument would be, given the disproportionate use that is made of the NHS by students. Fifty pounds seems an odd figure to have chosen.

Fees, charges and living costs already make the UK a relatively expensive destination for study. As others have said, the Government cannot on the one hand impose new procedures and costs for prospective overseas students and on the other blandly claim that we are “open for business”. As the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, said, it would be wrong to think of this amendment as special pleading for the students. This is actually about our standing in the world, our history and our culture, and about our economy going forward.

Taken as a whole, the requirements for students who wish to study in the UK are in many cases much more stringent than in our competitor countries, particularly when you take into account language requirements, academic progression, limits on study time, the ability to bring in dependants and police registration. These new challenges will have an effect. Do the additional cost and hassle, and the impression that we are tightening up, justify the risk? Perceptions, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, reminded us, are important in this matter. Are we, as the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, said, killing the golden goose?

I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. However, like the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, I believe that we will need to return to this issue on Report.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Well, my Lords, this subject certainly engenders good and powerful debates. If arguments are repeated, perhaps noble Lords feel that they are worth repeating. I have to repeat my arguments. I am afraid that the Government cannot accept the amendment, but perhaps I can help noble Lords by telling them why that is, and why we feel that, despite our policy of welcoming the brightest and the best with no limit on numbers, students are an important part of any strategy which deals with immigration.

I start with that strategy. The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick of Undercliffe, challenged me on the whole business of net migration. Reaching the tens of thousands remains the Government’s objective. We chose a net migration target because we want to control immigration due to its effects on social cohesion, infrastructure and public services. These arguments are frequently discussed in other areas, but they form the background to why this legislation has come forward. Jobs and wages are affected by migration but, when it comes to students, there is no cap on numbers—I repeat, no cap on numbers—of genuine students who want to come here. They are welcome. Those who have the right qualifications, sufficient funds to cover their fees and maintenance costs and a good level of English can study here, and there is no limit on numbers. Our reforms, to tackle the widespread abuse that was occurring in the system we inherited, have favoured our world-class universities.

Those reforms are working. The number of issued student visas has dropped by around 27% from the high in 2009, while visa applications from university students were up 7% in the year ending December 2013 and applications from students going to Russell group universities were up by 11%. Higher education statistics show that numbers of international students in our universities held steady in 2012-13, with a small decline of 1%—but numbers of UK and EU students have fallen by more than that. It is true that there has been a decline in the number of Indian students at our universities, but this followed a period of soaring numbers and, by contrast, there has been strong growth in numbers of students from China, Malaysia and Hong Kong in 2012-13.

Immigration Bill

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Monday 10th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, the introduction to the recent BIS publication International Education: Global Growth and Prosperity says:

“There are few sectors of the UK economy with the capacity to grow and generate export earnings as impressive as education … Overseas students who come to Britain to study make a huge contribution to our economy”.

As we have heard, BIS estimates that in 2011-12 overseas students in higher education in the UK paid £10.2 billion in tuition fees and living expenses. It says that they boost the local economy where they study, as well as enhancing our cultural life and broadening the educational experience of the UK students that they study alongside. Bravo to that.

The conclusion of the BIS report is that it is realistic for numbers of international students in higher education to grow by 15% to 20% over the next five years. However, the report warns that for this to happen,

“we must show that the UK values international students, will provide a warm welcome and support while they are here and will keep in touch after they go home”.

That all sounds pretty good. It is a pity that the reality is somewhat different. Even the report admits that there are some problems. It says, somewhat euphemistically at this point:

“There remain some misunderstandings about visa rules and post study opportunities to work. We must signal clearly that there is no cap on the number of students who can come to study in the UK and no intention to introduce one. Nor is there any cap on the number of former students who can stay on to work as long as they have a graduate job”.

It is one thing to say that we are open to international students but quite another to take responsibility for the service that students are receiving—one for which they are going to have to pay an even higher premium price.

As I say, there are a number of areas where the Bill needs close scrutiny. Clause 11 restricts appeal rights to cases involving a human rights, asylum or humanitarian protection claim. International students lost their right of appeal for initial entry clearance by means of the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006, but these new provisions will remove the remaining rights to appeal against a refusal of leave to remain. Applicants will instead be able to request an administrative review. Universities UK has suggested that the Government should retain appeal rights for applications for Tier 4 leave to remain and PhD-level jobs. Does the Minister agree that this proposal has some considerable merit?

Other noble Lords have already spoken about Clause 15 on residential tenancies. It is clear that international students already face difficulties in securing accommodation and are often made to pay large fees and advance rent payments. The Bill may result in landlords or agents refusing to even consider international students as tenants, or charging additional fees to cover the extra administration costs. In the student sector, tenancies are entered into often months in advance of the actual tenancy start date but that is something that international students may not be able to do, particularly if they have to prove their immigration status so far in advance.

While, as we have heard, the Explanatory Notes suggest that some student accommodation will be exempt—we will have to see the detail of that—there is concern that these measures will discourage private landlords from letting accommodation to international students and to university staff, particularly at peak times when they are under pressure to make decisions quickly. Given that many international students are young and living away from home for the first time, does the Minister not agree that this clause could cause considerable anxiety and add to the perception that the UK is unwelcoming?

Several noble Lords have expressed concern about Clause 33 on NHS charges and we, too, have some concerns about their introduction. As several noble Lords have said, there are concerns about public health. Universal primary care allows potentially serious health problems to be identified early, when they are preventable or easily and cheaply treated. This applies equally to long-term conditions as well as to infectious diseases. On an individual level, the proposals will make another change: international students already make a significant contribution to the UK economy, bringing in, as we have heard, more than £10 billion a year, while international academic staff, critical to our position as a world-leading university sector, pay taxes and national insurance while they are here. Why are they being asked to pay more? To add more trouble, the charge will have to be paid up front for the full duration of the visa.

Taken as a whole, the requirements for students who wish to study in the UK are in many cases more stringent than in competitor countries, particularly in relation to language requirements, academic progression, limits on study time, the ability to bring in dependants and police registration. Introducing a surcharge for access to the NHS will, ironically, remove one area of relative advantage that the UK can currently offer. In combination, these measures may create the impression that it is now harder to secure a visa to study in the UK than anywhere else in the world. It will of course add significant up-front costs that will make us even more different from our competitors.

It is difficult to see how the aspirations of international education, global growth and prosperity can ever be realised if the Bill is not improved while it is in this House.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Monday 25th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Allan of Hallam]

My Lords, I want to make some similar points to those just made by the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, and in doing so I should like to declare an interest. I work for Facebook, which is a website operator. The points around definition have been made effectively in the scope of the amendments and in the comments of my noble friend Lord Lucas. They exemplify how hard it is to define anything in this area. As the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, and his committee have found in trying to draw out these definitions, the more one goes into it, the more one finds that in many cases it is an imprecise science. It is hard to define precisely what it is one intends to regulate and does not intend to regulate.

The comments of my noble friend Lord McNally were extremely helpful in clarifying the Government’s intention not to include a wide range of services or individual activities within scope and I picked up on two particular phrases that he used. The first was “press-like” and the clear intention to regulate such services, and the second was “future-proof”, in that these provisions should be future-proofed. Subsection (7) of the proposed new clause set out in Amendment 19 refers to the concept of “News-related material”, but nowhere does it talk about the format of that material. Referring to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, it seems on first reading that “TV-like” and “radio-like” services would be covered. The new schedule set out in Amendment 131 provides an exemption for those who are licensed under the Broadcasting Acts, but again what we see increasingly is the ability to launch services over the internet that are TV-like and radio-like, but where no licence is required. If the legislation is to be future-proofed, it is important to understand whether it is the Government’s intention to restrict this to services that we would regard as being press-like today—most people in common parlance would understand that as being primarily the printed word—or if in the future someone launches a video or audio channel that consists primarily of news-related material—the new online TV-type and radio-type services—it is intended that it should be included in the scheme we are debating today. This is an important clarification for the increasing number of businesses and individuals who would like to move into this field of activity and for the increasing number of consumers who would like to receive their news through these new channels rather than the traditional ones.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for participating in this debate, which has echoed a number of occasions on which we have been able to touch on these topics in the context of several Bills over recent months. We have not always stood opposite the noble Lord, Lord McNally, although he has been quite strong, particularly as we saw his cherished Defamation Bill begin to slip away from him. However, I think I see it looming in the background, and the noble Lord has cheered up again, which is nice. We also touched on them in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill, where we did a great deal of work with the excellent amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky. They were not moved, but they certainly raised the issues that we are considering today. Of course, we now have the Crime and Courts Bill before us, so there is endless flexibility, and long may that last. I should like particularly to thank the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, who has been tireless in tabling amendments that give effect to the detail of the Leveson recommendations and reinforce the fact that the royal charter and its statutory underpinning have been agreed by all three parties in an historic agreement.

We need to recognise that the debate on Leveson has moved on. The most important thing now is to be clear on what the government amendments intend to do and avoid any unnecessary scaremongering. I shall focus on a number of the amendments before us and, like the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, I should like the Minister to comment on how he intends to respond to them.

My first strand is on exemplary damages, but I have been sufficiently warned off by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, even to go down this route. However, there are a couple of points that I would like the Minister to respond to. I understand that a considerable amount of time was spent in the all-party talks on the question of what happens to damages when it transpires that the facts of a case have changed in that the court has facts which were not available to the regulator. Can the Minister help us on this issue as it has happened in recent months? Can he confirm that this is a matter which will be returned to?

Amendment 11C clarifies that the common law gateway for exemplary damages will not apply. Can the Minister confirm that the “for profit” test is not required if the “outrageous” test is met? Amendment 11D makes it clear that a relevant publisher will be vicariously liable for wrongdoing by an employee or a person contracted to work for a publisher which results in liability for exemplary damages in accordance with the ordinary common law tests. Can the Minister confirm that further work will be done on this question? It is a key issue that is dealt with succinctly in the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky. Vicarious liability bears on the morality and culture of the press. It is important that the Government should put on the record today that they agree with the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, and that they intend to return to this issue in the Commons to the extent that this may be required. The recent history, after all, shows that it matters. We do not want a situation where publishers literally have a get-out-of-jail-free card, and it would be strange if the media were to be in a privileged position in relation to vicarious liability compared with all other interests in this country. Lastly in this group, Amendment 13A is intended to reassure small publishers that, in deciding the amount of exemplary damages, the court will have regard to the means of the defendant. Can the Minister confirm that the Government will return to this issue when it is considered again in the Commons?

The second group of amendments that I would like to look at contains those amendments that are intended to make it clear that to benefit from cost protection the publisher would have to participate in the self-regulator’s arbitral scheme. With regard to Amendment 17E, the Government’s intention is that in order to benefit from cost protection the publisher would not only have to be a member of an approved regulator but would also have to participate in the scheme. There are those who have argued differently. Surely it makes no sense to provide benefits to publishers simply on the basis that they recognise that an arbitration scheme exists. The point here should be that it is the active participation by publishers in the scheme that entitles them to get cost benefits. In any case, as Lord Justice Leveson pointed out, an incentive to join an arbitration scheme is good for all publishers and will help them and the claimants. Can the Minister confirm that this is his understanding of the situation and that the Government stand ready to confirm this position in the other place?

Amendment 17J asks for clarification, as raised by the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, about the commencement of Sections 44 and 46 of the LASPO Act 2012, which was taken through the House by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, so he should know his stuff on this. I should be grateful for some confirmation about the issues that arise from that question. Amendment 19B would require that the recognition panel, which approves the self-regulator, is subject to freedom of information. This is an important matter which surely should be brought forward at this stage. After all, it is something that can be dealt with by secondary legislation. No one would surely expect that the recognition body wishes the power to act in secret. This really is important, so will the Minister give us an assurance that the relevant statutory instrument will be brought forward in good time before the regulator starts its work? Amendment 131A concerns relevant publishers which hold broadcasting licences. The drafting here is a little opaque. We seek an assurance from the Minister that a person who holds a broadcasting licence is excluded only in so far as they publish news-related material in the course of their broadcasting activities. Can the Minister confirm that this is not intended to cover the whole publishing activity of such licence-holders but only their broadcasting activity?

My Amendment 131F, which was put down earlier and is part of this group, has, I think, been overtaken by events. I refer to the extensive introduction which the Minister gave to Amendment 131BA, which provides for:

“A person who publishes a small-scale blog”.

I think it is meant to be a peg to allow for further discussion and debate for this event to happen in the House of Commons. On the basis of that understanding, for which I am grateful to the Minister, I will not press that amendment when the time comes.

Finally, there has been some talk about dates and the time that all this comes into effect. I should be grateful if the Minister could be very clear about what he understands the implementation date to be.

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to what has been a very thoughtful debate. I should perhaps start with the intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Black, because I am not sure whether it was the case for the defence or a warning of battles to come. He said that Lord Justice Leveson was as immune from being criticised as Florence Nightingale. I would have thought that the lady would have got a fair old battering from the noble Lord, Lord Black, if his speech was anything to go by.

Looking round the Chamber and listening to the contributions, and following this debate right through, I have never been in any doubt that many of the politicians in this Parliament would literally lay down their lives for the freedom of the press. It is not the case, as has been suggested in some of the very newspapers over which the noble Lord, Lord Black, has influence, that this is some Orwellian plot against the freedom of the press. As my noble friend Lord Phillips said, if by chance we saw what follows as an attack on the freedom of the press, I believe that the people who would be most likely to leap to the defence of the press would be not some of the media barons but noble Lords in this Chamber tonight and Members in the other place.

Although it was a well thought out and well delivered critique, I regret a little bit that nowhere in the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Black, was there any apology. There was no recognition of the law-breaking on an industrial scale, no understanding of how deeply wounded the victims of press intrusion have been and no recognition of the deep disgust of the general public, which is reflected in the opinion polls that we have seen. I understand the message that was delivered. He asked me to pause. I genuinely ask the noble Lord, Lord Black, to pause and think whether he could not go back to those with whom he has immense influence and say, “Rather than trying to wreck this, couldn’t we see if we could make it work?”. To my mind, the prize is a great one—a free press, but a free press operating to the highest standards of ethics and one that is law-abiding. I believe that that is within our grasp if we can work together on this.

Visas: Student Visa Policy

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Thursday 31st January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, for securing this debate and for framing so well the issues that we are discussing today. Indeed, like many other noble Lords who have already said this, I agree almost entirely with everything he said. He went a little further on the shortcomings of UKBA than I perhaps would have dared—maybe he has special rights and privileges from where he sits—but I certainly recognise the sentiment behind what he was trying to get across.

As the noble Lord said, it is really interesting that five Select Committee chairs have written to the Prime Minister and gone public about the fact that they feel so strongly on this. I hope the Minister will consider the point that it must be very rare to participate in a debate—and after all, this is a Conservative Party debate—where every single speaker excoriates government policy. I will wipe the smile from my face as I go through the motions of going forward.

This is clearly an important topic which is of interest to a very large number of Peers from right across the House who have managed the ridiculous time constraints of the debate with consummate skill. Just as a mosaic can sometimes make as strong an impact as a whole painting or sculpture, so have the 24 short interventions that we have heard today combined to make a very powerful case about the damage that the Government are doing to our precious higher education system. What has been said here this afternoon will be picked up and relayed right across the country and right across the globe. I will say a few general things about immigration and then pick up the main points made in the debate, as well as leaving some questions for the Minister to answer.

Britain has long been, and must remain, an optimistic, outward-looking and confident nation. When more people travel and trade across borders than ever before, no country can pull up the drawbridge. Our economy and culture have benefitted immensely from those who have come here through the generations. We should be proud of being British, and we should rejoice in the confident British diversity that occurs daily right across the country, and which London showed off for us in Olympic year. However, there is no doubt that the pace and scale of migration has created pressure on resources and strains on the solidarity of communities. The fact that the costs and benefits of recent migration were not evenly shared, particularly as a result of low-skilled migration, needs to be recognised.

What this country needs, and what my right honourable friend the leader of the Opposition has called for recently, is a proper debate about the different kinds of immigration we need and can sustain, and the development of evidence-led policies which can get the necessary controls and limits right. Such a debate would also identify the policies which help growth in the UK while at the same time enhancing our culture and society. This is where the Government are failing. As we have heard, focusing on the chimera of cutting the level of net migration leads to the sort of unfair and self-defeating policy measures which we have seen since 2010. Why are they unfair and self-defeating? Well, they are unfair and self-defeating because the Government’s net migration target bizarrely makes it a sign of success if more Brits move abroad. I ask the Minister: what sort of success does that represent?

More importantly, such an approach does not cope with questions about the different kinds of immigration there are, or recognise their different impacts both for the immigrant and for our country. Who would disagree that we must continue to be a safe haven for people genuinely escaping violence or tyranny? In fact, 70% of people in the British Social Attitudes survey agree Britain should offer asylum for those fleeing persecution. Who would disagree that we should recognise the exceptional cases of those who have risked their lives to help British interests and face continued threats now? Cases which come to mind include Afghan interpreters who helped British troops and now face threats from the Taliban as the troops pull out, and the Gurkhas.

As we have heard this afternoon, the impact of the student visa policy is economically illiterate and culturally bankrupt. Bringing more talented students from China, India or Brazil to learn at Britain’s universities not only brings in substantial investment in the short term but helps Britain to build cultural and economic links with the future leaders of the fastest-growing economies on earth. In total, foreign students bring in £8 billion a year, and BIS estimates that this figure could double by 2025—but, of course, only if current numbers are maintained.

The sorry truth is that the Government’s target for net migration cannot possibly be met without a further massive drop in the number of people coming to study in Britain. According to the Migration Advisory Committee, 87,600 fewer non-EU students would have to enter the UK by 2015 if the Government are to meet their target.

An immigration policy based solely on getting net migration numbers down means that legitimate international students and our universities are taking a significant hit—one that we can ill afford. So, can the Minister let us know—what is the target that he has in mind for the reduction in the number of international students that the Government are seeking to achieve by 2015? How do the Government expect this figure to be achieved?

It would also be helpful if the Minister could explain if there is anything else going on here apart from a simple number-cutting exercise. What is it exactly that the Government fear about university-sponsored students attending courses here? There are so many myths flying around that it is worth reminding ourselves that students on HE courses are not likely to be a burden on public service as their visa conditions specify that they should have no recourse to public funds. They usually live on campus; they are generally healthy; and most do not have dependants.

A 2010 Home Office study showed that only 3% of a cohort of non-EU students that they had followed since 2004 had settled permanently in the UK. In some courses, such as medicine and dentistry, non-EU students actually contribute to public services during their training. When one takes all this into account, the Government's current student visa policy does not stack up.

Britain has a long and proud history of being the destination of choice for potential students from around the globe. Our universities are highly regarded, and the UK provides a rich, diverse and safe environment in which to study. Higher education should be front and centre of an active government strategy to generate growth. If we are going to keep up with our competitor countries we need to be bringing more talented students from around the world to learn at Britain's top universities. It not only brings in substantial investment in the short term; it helps build the soft power that people have talked about.

The five Lords and Commons Select Committees which have recommended a change to the Government's approach to including international students within the net migration target are right. In their joint letter, they variously quote from recent reports which are unanimous in calling for a change. I would like to quote just one, from the Select Committee on Science and Technology in your Lordships’ House. The committee says:

“Given the significant contribution that overseas students make to the economy and that the majority leave the UK following their studies and do not therefore contribute significantly to net migration, we recommend that the Government make a distinction in the immigration statistics between HE students and other immigrants and uses only the latter category to calculate net migration for policy-making purposes”.

I could not have put it better myself.

At the heart of this issue is a clear failure to provide joined-up government, with the Home Office and BIS pursuing different policy objectives and using different business models. BIS has launched an education strategy to promote the UK’s education exports. As the noble Lord, Lord Rana, said, the Skills Minister Matthew Hancock recently visited India to drum up business. However, the Home Secretary has just announced that there are going to be over 100,000 more out-of-country interviews of prospective international students conducted by agents of UKBA each year, many of them targeting India.

The Government’s confused policy in this area and their destructive approach to student visa approvals are already having a negative impact all round the world. In an NUS survey of more than 900 international students, 40% said that they would not advise a friend or relative from their home country to come to the UK to study.

Finally, in April 2011, the Prime Minister made a speech on immigration. He said that,

“some say is that our policies on student visas will damage our universities … let me make clear: this government will do nothing to harm Britain’s status as a magnet for the world’s best students. That’s why with us, if you’re good at your subject, can speak English and have been offered a place on a course at a trusted institution, you will be able to get a visa to study here. Put another way, Britain’s universities are free to market themselves globally saying: ‘You can come and study here at some of the finest institutions anywhere in the world, and you can stay and work in a graduate job after you leave’. That makes our country a hugely attractive destination for genuine students who genuinely want to study abroad”.

The discrepancy is obvious. I think it was expressed best by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, who said that it would be better that the “odd rogue” gets in and stays rather than a system which excludes future Nobel Prize winners or Prime Ministers. It was not Churchill—sorry, it is not even Keynes—but he is surely right.

Claims Management Companies

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Tuesday 29th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of the Consumer Credit Counselling Service, which has some involvement in this area. I start by thanking my noble friend Lord Kennedy for introducing this debate and for posing the question on how we get higher standards in this area. I also draw attention to the House that I am not the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, if Members have an earlier version of the Speaker’s List. I am having to deputise for him, although I am slightly nervous about raising that issue in this place because it will be recorded that the noble Lord, Lord Young, was unfortunately struck down last night and was unable to be present today, which will probably result in a flood of calls along the lines of the suggestion from the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Market, that once these things get out they are pursued. In this case, I do not think that it is anything that he could possibly claim for—but you know the noble Lord, Lord Young.

It is extraordinary how the growth in claims management companies has risen since 2006, with the change in regulation. It was also interesting to note the rate of churn within those, which suggests that quite a lot of activity is going on below the radar. My noble friend Lord Kennedy made the point that some of the returns on the fees being charged here are astonishing, with up to 30% fees for work being done. It is perhaps overheating as a sector and may need further work and investigation by the Government.

My noble friend made a powerful call for action across a wide range of activities. He mentioned the generic question of fraud. One point that he did not make but which is also of concern relates to whiplash. A recent report in the papers said:

“The data show that nine of the 10 postal areas with the lowest number of whiplash compensation claims per head were in Scotland, where the legal system imposes stricter controls on referral fees. There were only three claims for every 1,000 residents in the Edinburgh and Dundee areas … compared with 22 in Liverpool and 21 in Uxbridge”.

As the claims director at Aviva said:

“I don’t believe people in Scotland have significantly stronger necks”.

In other words, there is a suggestion here that perhaps fraudulent work is at play, which is something that needs more investigation.

We also heard about the cold calling and how that seems to follow people around. Increasingly we have all had problems with text messages, e-mails and phishing expeditions on the PPI mainly, but not limited to that. There are also transgressions in the sector about how fees are charged to consumers who are vulnerable and unable to respond.

Having heard the points made by my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, and the expertise brought to this debate by my noble friend Lady Sherlock, I think that there are a number of points that the Government should think very hard about. The question was asked whether a voluntary code was the right way forward on this. In some ways, perhaps initially when businesses are starting up, a voluntary code is a good way of doing it. But as the sector matures and people begin to opt out or work round it, a statutory basis probably needs to be considered. I would be grateful for the Minister’s comments.

There is also the question of whether or not, perhaps in co-operation with the FOS, there should be a naming and shaming of defaulters and in some sense a penalty through payment. That is something that should be considered, with the maturity of the sector. There is also the important question of the TPS review, the role of the Information Commissioner and whether that should be reclassified so that it becomes a body that has ability to pursue those who default. Obviously, there is a question about overseas calls there.

The whole question of the PPI review seems to be peaking and beginning to come back. It is something that the Government might think about reviewing. It seemed to come from nowhere. We heard from my noble friend Lady Sherlock how and why that happened, but it does not really explain the long tail of activity that we are all seeing. It would be interesting to have a sense of that, and maybe the Government might look at reviewing that and give us a report on it in future.

Finally, at the heart of the debate, the question that my noble friend Lord Kennedy raised at the heart of his speech was what the role was of the MoJ in this sector. In some senses, we have reached the stage in this industry whereby strong and effective regulation—in bold, as some people said—is required. That does not lie happily with the Ministry of Justice as a sponsoring department. The Government might think of the opportunities that present themselves through the Financial Services Bill, shortly due in your Lordships’ House, in which a number of bodies are being given new regulatory authority and duties. It seems odd that this particular sector of the financial industry is not part of that, and there might be an opportunity to discuss further with Ministers whether they could receive an amendment on that issue.

Digital Technology

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Monday 5th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Greenfield, for securing this debate and other noble Lords for their contributions. I am not out of sympathy with the approach that was taken by the noble Baroness, Lady Greenfield. The internet has spawned a positive tsunami of innovation and that can be very unsettling as we try to make sense of it all. We now have access to devices, as other noble Lords have said, with immense speed, power and versatility. However, I shall make two observations. The first is rather banal and is that everything we do in one way or another, to some degree or another, reconfigures our synapses and the connections in and the shape of our brains. I am not sure what shape my brain will be in after I sit down following this short speech, but I know it will not be exactly the same as when I stood up.

The second point is a little more serious and follows other noble Lords who have mentioned that as well as the points on the one side, led off by the noble Baroness, Lady Greenfield, there is now increasingly some good research on the effect on children of playing some of these new and highly immersive video games. It finds many very positive effects in terms of teaching and in helping to develop improved problem-solving skills and other associated benefits.

As a parent of teenage children, I agree that there are some issues around potential addiction and overuse, but there is still far from a settled view on the causes or the effects, so we should proceed with care before leaping to any conclusions. In particular, as has been mentioned by a number of speakers, we have to be careful about fanning the flames of moral panic. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Greenfield, will forgive me if I mention some of the headlines that appeared after she raised some of these points on earlier occasions:

“Is mind change the new Climate Change?”—

that is relatively straightforward, and I think we could answer that one.

“Chilling warning to parents from top neuroscientist”,

and:

“Expert says browsing habits could lead to ‘temporary dementia’”.

Why is it temporary? Finally, and rather more alarmingly:

“Did video games make bankers more reckless?”.

I think the word “more” is the interesting one there. As has been said, we have had these moral panics before. They have been about writing—the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, reminded us about Socrates—and about Shakespeare. Why was the Globe built outside the City walls? It was because there was concern that audiences would be inflamed by the passions in his plays. There were moral panics about penny dreadfuls, early cinema films—which have been rather neatly recreated in Martin Scorsese’s latest film which shows some of the effects of early cinema on audiences—TV and video nasties, and now there is the internet.

To be serious, if the case being made by the noble Baroness is accepted and therefore we should be doing some research, who will do it and how are we going to evaluate it to make sure that we get the best out of it? I take from her introductory speech that at the very least we should be looking at the way in which it is alleged that empathy is declining, which would need some fairly large-scale epidemiological studies, and that video gaming has aspects that lead to aggression, attention deficit and addictive behaviours, so there would need to be some serious research on chemical and structural changes in the brain. If we also follow her line about the impact of search engines in changing the way we seek and store knowledge, we would obviously have to research how we acquire and store knowledge.

This is a very wide and quite intensive research programme so I have some questions for the Minister which I hope he will be able to answer when he responds. First, do departments currently have the capacity to carry out research on this scale? A quick look at the current research projects in DfE does not reveal anything in this area as far as I could see. Given that the budget is about £25 million and that it is likely to be the same next year, I think the Minister should share with us whether resources would be available if such a research programme was to be started. Secondly, by its very nature, this research would have to be collaborative and we would need to seek around Whitehall for partners and others to work on it. It would be interesting to learn from the Minister whether he feels that in the present scenario it would be possible to raise the funds for the sort of projects that might give us the answers we need.

Finally, as I am sure your Lordship's House is aware, the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee is currently carrying out a review of the role of departmental chief scientific advisers. There was an evidence session a couple of weeks ago. The committee has already established that there are 13 departments, including DfE, which have chief scientific advisers, which is a good thing, but in only two or three of them does the chief scientific adviser operate at board level. Mr Nick Gibb MP, a colleague of the Minister, said in his evidence on 23 November 2011 that Carole Willis, the chief scientific officer of DfE, is not on the board of that department and is not even a director-general. Given that Mr Gibb also said that his Secretary of State is particularly keen on ensuring that they have evidence for their policy, will the Minister explain how any research evidence that might be commissioned in this area would impact on policy given the low status accorded to the department’s CSA?

Education Bill

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Tuesday 4th October 2011 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

145F: Clause 72, page 56, line 4, at end insert—
“( ) not in excess of the average cost of borrowing borne by the Government in the preceding financial year.”

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, Clause 72 amends the powers given to the Secretary of State in the Teaching and Higher Education Act 1998 to make regulations setting interest rates for student loans. As the legislation currently stands, Section 22 of the 1998 Act effectively provides that the interest rates set must be no higher than the rate required to maintain the value of the loan in real terms. So the fee and maintenance loans of students who study at English universities attract interest while individuals are students and when they graduate.

This is charged in line with a predetermined measure of inflation, and if no repayments are made, the size of the loan increases in cash terms but remains fixed in value terms. This means that the value of the money borrowed by students has the same value as the money we paid.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

On that technical point, and I am sorry to interrupt, no—£21,500 currently cannot possibly deflate over five years to £21,000. I simply cannot accept that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Verma]

I suspect that my answer will not satisfy the noble Lord, because I am not satisfied with it either. However, I will read it out, then look at my civil servants to give me a better response at some point. Looking at the existing loan portfolio now, I do not think that we can give the response that the noble Lord wants.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

That has been interesting. A relatively small point at the end of a Bill that is about something else has revealed an interesting range of issues that we may have to come back to at Report. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Peston, Lord Sutherland, Lord Knight and Lord Foulkes, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, for their comments and for illuminating and extending some of my points. As the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, said, the purpose of discussions at this stage of a Bill is to discuss some of the underlying issues and principles and, if possible, get some illumination on the thinking behind the Government’s plans and understand better the consequences of what they are doing.

I am afraid we did not really get much illumination, and we tended towards the end to run into a sort of blame game. If it was not our fault for having been in Government when the first arrangements were made, it was our fault for not having supported what is currently proposed. Indeed, at one point I heard the Minister say that we should not be discussing this now but should wait for the Higher Education Bill soon to come into this House.

[Baroness Verma]

No, what I said was that there are issues coming up in the Higher Education White Paper that is under consultation. That is a good forum for concerns such as those raised by the noble Lord, Lord Peston. That is the place where that would be discussed far more fruitfully than here today.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

We beg to differ on that. Actually, I agree on the essence—that a lot of what has been raised today needs to be discussed in a wider context. It is a great pity that we are not able to do that because of the strange way in which the Government have been developing policy in this area. We had an announcement about the funding system detached from the student loan system which is in this Bill. We had a White Paper at the very end of the previous Session but we do not yet know when the Bill that will follow is due, and we are therefore not able to tie all these things together. That is the point I was trying to make.

I do not think we disagree in principle on what any Government would have to do in these situations. We want to fund our universities to the best level possible and we accept the principle that those who benefit from that should contribute to it. The problem is that I do not think the system that is coming out is the right one. The noble Lords, Lord Foulkes and Lord Knight, put a fairly precise finger on the first of my questions, about the difference between RPI and CPI, and I am afraid that I did not think that the answer that the Government came up with was at all credible. We will need to return to this on Report.

On the social inclusion points, I heard the Minister and I admire her aspirations. However, I think that there will be severe problems for women, particularly those in lower-paid occupations, and for mature students. Although I understand that negotiations are continuing about Sharia law compliance, I am worried about this and I hope it will be taken back and discussed seriously. If it turns out this is not a Sharia-compliant issue or is sufficiently close to problems that will cause the Government to reflect on it, we perhaps need an early decision; we are moving quite fast with this Bill and it would be difficult to change it later on, even this month.

On the question of why 3 per cent, I do not think that the Minister gave us much; 2.2 per cent from 3 per cent may not sound a lot but it would make a huge difference in terms of whether loans are keeping pace in value or are increasing in an overall race to the bottom.

On the question of the student loan sell-off, there is more to make of this, and we will need to return to it because I think it is driving some of the policy here. Unless we can get an absolutely clear answer on that, we will have to return to it. However, this is Committee and we have had a very good discussion so I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 145F withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Verma]

Absolutely, and I would encourage any other noble Lord who would wish to be at that meeting to indicate that they would like to be present, so that we can offer an invitation to whoever wishes to be there.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, me too. I would like to come to that. It would be fascinating. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes would be present in spirit even if his considerable bulk was not present in fact at the occasion. We will bear in mind his useful and helpful interjections during the debate on these two amendments.

[Baroness Verma]

He has indicated not.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Brinton and Lady Sharp, for their amendment, which has won the day. The speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, was indeed very eloquent, as has already been said. One point which I would like to finesse back to the Minister was that in considering the question of the timing for which loans should be available for part-time equivalent to full-time study for degrees, she also made the point—which I tried to make, but did not make it so well—that institutions have a long and distinguished history of setting good levels of fees for part-time courses. It is not clear at all to me why the Government feel they need to regulate.

The documentation I have seen suggests that there is a fear that if the new loan system comes in, institutions cannot be trusted to restrict the level of fee, when it comes down to it. Again, that might be worth waiting for, to see, and to have the power to intervene if necessary. As the Minister said, there may be a number of institutions who, for good and persuasive reasons, decide to cap fees much lower down the scale, in which case the figure of 75 per cent of £9,000 is otiose, and we should bear that in mind as we go forward.

I also thank the other speakers in this debate, because although mine was a probing amendment, I did want to raise the points that have been raised. I think they were picked up. I am delighted that the Minister has reassured the Committee about the equivalence of interest payments between full-time and part-time students; that is important. I am delighted that she is going to take back the arguments we made today, and I hope that at Report or earlier, we will be able to have some good news. On that basis I would like to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 145G withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sutherland of Houndwood]

My Lords, I am not rising to the bait of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, other than to add a fact that he may find interesting and so may the Committee. The Scottish Government’s budget presented roughly two weeks ago requires the universities to raise roughly £60 million in fees from students from the rest of the United Kingdom. On my own estimate, two years ago the cost of students from the European Union was £85 million a year. These are frightening figures and they raise a quite separate issue, but this is not the place to do it. I want to speak to the two amendments.

I appreciate the spirit of Amendment 147A: the spirit is openness and reassuring students that the money they pay for their education is actually being used for their education. That is absolutely right; as well as funding universities, that was the whole point of fees introduction. I support the principle, but I think the mechanism and the detail in subsection (2) would frighten the wits out of anyone running a university to provide that degree of information for every student.

I feel more strongly in support of Amendment 146. I simply want to add the fact that this is already in practice in a very select group of cases. The select group is of students who are taking a second degree, having already had the benefit of the first degree. The obvious case is veterinary studies, which was well represented in the university of which we have been speaking. The university found it possible to admit additional full-paying students on non state-funded places. Therefore, it seems the principle has been operating and has been conceded. In which case, there is a way of pushing it forward as in Clause 146.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, these are two slightly different amendments, raising different points, which are slightly oddly grouped together. However, they raise good points and I look forward to hearing what the Minister will say about them. On the first point, following the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, and stepping sideways around the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes—a difficult task I know—architecture is another subject where you would have the benefit of having done a first qualification and then come back in and done further study, for which again these would not count.

[Lord Sutherland of Houndwood]

On a point of information, it is not because veterinary studies required an earlier qualification, it is because many students want to take it, whose parents can afford to pay the extra fee. They take it, if they are admitted, whatever their background.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

Which is the point I was about to make. The sheer serendipity of being able to do this does not make it right. Earlier points on other amendments, which were about the need of the whole country to work out how we pay for higher education, and to make sure that those who benefit from it also contribute back, do not get caught by this amendment. However, it may be worth further discussion, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister says.

On Amendment 147A, as has already been said, this is presumably the first of a number of points to be discussed as we get more to the market that the students will be dominating in future places, because in order to do that they will need this sort of information. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, that this is a tad more difficult and complex than any standard university secretary would be able to respond to. However, it gets the right message across, which is that there is not very much information available for students to judge what sort of university they are going to. The courses are beyond their experience by their very definition, but as for the way in which they are taught and the amount of student contact, there is already enough circulating to make this an interesting area, which we will track with interest.

There has been a report in the papers today that comments from students that have been surveyed about what they thought about university courses in relation to fee levels of £9,000 were distinctly unflattering. If that is the way this is going, then this sort of amendment may well be something we need to discuss later.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, the recently published Higher Education White Paper places students at the very heart of the higher education system. Our goal is a system that offers students better information and opportunity, is more responsive to student choice and helps to improve social mobility. We will ensure funding follows the student, is progressive and fair, and better responds to their situation and choices.

The amendment of my noble friend, Amendment 146, seeks to allow home and EU students to opt out of their eligibility for student support. First, let me make it clear that there is no requirement for students who have already been offered a place in higher education to draw down their entitlement to student support. At the moment, we have to control student numbers overall because we must control the costs to the public purse.

This amendment would mean that students who could afford to pay up front the full cost of their courses would then be at an advantage because they could pay. In effect, it has bypassed our student number controls. On the face of it this may appear attractive, but there would be a strong perception that wealthier students or their families would be able to buy a university place.

The Prime Minister has made the Government’s position absolutely clear on this. University access is about the ability to learn and not the ability to pay. There is no question of people being able to buy their way into university, however attractive that proposal looks. The Government are interested in expanding employer or charity sponsored places outside the quota system and are committed to freeing up the controls on student numbers in general.

In the Higher Education White Paper, we have committed to increasing such opportunities, provided that they do not create a cost liability for Government and that they meet three key principles: there should be fair access for all students applying, regardless of their ability to pay; the places must be genuinely additional; and there must be no reduction in academic standards in recruitment. The Higher Education Funding Council for England is looking at options to incentivise more sponsorship and will include this in its consultation this winter. This is a sensitive issue and we will consider carefully the outcomes of both these consultations before introducing further changes to the system.

On Amendment 147, I absolutely agree with my noble friend Lord Lucas that students need accessible, accurate and reliable information that clearly shows what they expect from their courses, helping them to make informed choices. We are doing a great deal of work in this area. It is our intention that by September 2012 all higher education institutions will publish key information sets for each course on their website. These sets will provide the information that students request the most, together with information about course charges.

The White Paper encourages good practice in institutions to allow students to become more discerning in understanding how their tuition charge is spent. It recommends that institutions provide the sort of material that local councils offer their residents to demonstrate where council tax is being spent. We have therefore asked the Higher Education Public Information Steering Group to consider whether this sort of data should form part of the future wider set of information we ask institutions to provide for prospective students.

I hope that I have reassured noble Lords, but before I conclude I would like to respond to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland. He mentioned that students taking their second first degrees would be outside the student number controls and would be able to pay for their courses. He is correct, but the Government, like the previous one, is regulating students’ first degrees. I hope that answers the noble Lord.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, this has been a useful and good discussion, repeating to some extent what we discussed in Committee but taking the debate a step further. The interesting thing about how the amendment now looks is that it has picked up a lot of the points that were made when we discussed this the first time around and tried to come up with a fresh look at some of the issues causing concern. To a greater or lesser extent, those aims have been achieved for the amendment. We should therefore consider it carefully.

At the heart of all this is a feeling that has not yet got through to some of those responsible for drafting and supporting the Bill, which is that alcohol is a drug and falls to be considered alongside cigarettes and hard drugs, and is not to be treated as a distinctive social phenomenon that we tolerate but are not concerned about unless it gets to a certain level. This came up time and again in our earlier debates, and is at the heart of what has been said today.

We know from the experience of trying to deal with this over the years and across many countries, and the number of reports that have come out, that you cannot treat any of the problems that alcohol causes in isolation from the three main strands. You have to deal with price; you have to deal with availability, in terms of the times that it is available to be purchased and used; and you have to have treatment. You cannot satisfactorily come up with a policy in this area unless you deal with all three. I think that the debates have again shown that we have still not got the answer on price, although there are some measures going forward that we might want to consider in due course.

Availability is indeed the subject of much of the discussion of some sections of the Bill. One hopes, although it is a bit of an experiment in some cases, that questions of availability will be dealt with. We may have to come back to that in the future.

Treatment is the big black hole into which we seem to pour all our aspirations, but from which we do not receive any real solutions. I said in Committee that, looking at how society deals with alcohol—and drugs more generally—we are moving far too quickly to a penal approach. We do not think about the impact that other possible solutions might have. We do not seem to be bringing forward alternatives for consideration at a time when there are worrying consumption trends and concerns about the fact that our young people seem to be drinking stronger and stronger drinks and causing problems. Although I understood what the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, was saying about drunkenness, it plays to my concern about the effects of the pursuit, use and abuse of alcohol, which come before that rather sympathetic view of drunkenness: “He’s just drunk; sorry about that”. Actually, it is much worse than that because that leads on to violence, as we have heard, both in the home and outside. It leads on to car crashes, traffic incidents and other problems—and, of course, the impact on children, which we have heard about.

The figures cited initially by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, were astonishing. If that is the effect of these schemes, admittedly in different cultures and places, we are bonkers if we do not try to take account of those and get some schemes going on this. On whether this scheme is the one that we should get behind, we have our doubts. We are not necessarily going to support this in the Lobbies if it goes to a vote because we are strongly of the view that the Government’s role in this matter is to remove the barriers to those who would wish to undertake pilots in this area, but not necessarily to support this particular scheme in this particular location. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response to that. Governments should not stand in the way of those who have the interest, the capacity, the funding and the structure to introduce such a plan, and we wish them well with it, if they wish to go ahead with that. It seems completely wrong for the Government to be obstructing that at this time.

The consequence of our position—and this will probably be true of the government Front Bench—is that it seems to be only the Front Benches who are against the scheme. Speeches from all around the Chamber have been supportive of it. We were discussing that on the Front Bench before I stood; we seemed to think that we were probably in the wrong on this matter. I am afraid that I do not quite see the solution to it, but we will have a further discussion after I have sat down to see if I can persuade us to move gently towards any Lobby that might be opening up before us. We will certainly encourage people to move through that Lobby, even if we cannot do so ourselves. That may feel a little strange.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am just trying to be honest. I shall also be honest about the Home Office. The problem here is less that this is a bad scheme, or that these schemes on the whole will not help, but that the idea that the Home Office should sponsor this is a bit silly. At heart this is a public health issue. The idea that the Home Office, which is the home of repression and locking people up—as I characterised it, although perhaps I overstated the case—should be responsible is a little like asking cats to be responsible for the welfare of the mice in their house. You cannot do it. I challenge the Minister, if the Home Office cannot get behind this, at least to remove the obstructions to this scheme getting off the ground. We would support that. The Home Office should give up responsibility for this area and pass it to the Department of Health.

[Baroness Browning]

The noble Lord poses many challenges to me. It might be appropriate for me to remind the House that responsibility for drug and alcohol abuse is within my ministerial brief at the Home Office. I am conscious that, in addressing this part of the Bill, I have already spoken—perhaps extensively—in Committee about my commitment. While I hear what the noble Lord says about the Department of Health, which is very important and takes the lead on alcohol, this is none the less a matter that will have to be addressed by joined-up government. As has been said by several people, not least the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, who moved this amendment, we need to look at a holistic approach.

I put on record that the Ministers in both the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice would like to see a sobriety scheme. Since we met to discuss this scheme in Committee, there have been extensive discussions at ministerial and official level with Members of this House and the office of the deputy mayor. We have tried very hard to come to some accommodation to find a scheme that works. The principle of the scheme is not in dispute.

I shall outline to the House why I must reject the amendment of—I am tempted to say “my noble friend” because we have worked closely together on so many issues in the past—the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. She made her case very strongly. She will know that I have great respect for her expertise in this area and her dedication to resolving these problems, particularly that of crime resulting from alcohol. However, I must reject these amendments.

Perhaps it will be helpful if I first reiterate what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, and others. Sobriety, in itself, will not always tackle alcohol-related offending. Many offenders will require clinical treatment and support to aid their recovery. I choose those words carefully. Mention has been made of treatment but it is the Government’s intention, on both drugs and alcohol—there is often a combination of the two—that we should move on from treatment into recovery, which has to be the end goal. A lot of valuable work has gone into treatment. Nobody in any way suggests that treatment programmes are not an essential part of the journey. However, the end of the journey must now focus, for both alcohol and drugs, on recovery; it must not just end with treatment. I have to say that it is rather unclear whether the purpose of the amendments before us is punitive or rehabilitative. I see nothing in the amendments that gives us a steer as to how we should view this.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Armstrong of Ilminster]

My Lords, I sympathise with the objectives and purposes of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, in tabling these amendments and with those who have spoken in favour of it. There are two points on the practicability of the scheme that I would like to query, which both relate to this Parliament Square committee. First, would the authorities of the Palace of Westminster be represented on it? That is just a query; I do not know what is intended. Secondly, it seems that this committee would be in almost permanent session. I wonder if that is really practicable and I would welcome comments on that before I make up my mind on how to respond in a Division.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, we have had a number of opportunities to discuss the issues that have been raised this afternoon. Indeed, there will be more because while we are still waiting for Committee stages on both Private Members’ Bills to come through, we have the debate today and one more opportunity on this Bill to try and resolve this. The issue itself is not difficult to encapsulate. As many people have suggested, we need some imaginative thinking about the relationship between Parliament, the abbey, the church, the public buildings and the public spaces around them that goes across the various dimensions that have been mentioned in this debate—security, access, traffic, tourism, history, heritage and, of course, the absolute requirement to ensure that demonstrations can take place.

The good thing about the amendment—indeed, it was in the Bill that we discussed last week—is that there is a laser-like focus on the two issues that we have been focusing on today. They are that we want to have a clear space within which the buildings that I mentioned can exist and the activities that we have been talking about can happen, but we also want to encourage demonstration—a very important aspect of this amendment. That far, we agree with everybody who has spoken that that is what we are trying to do but, as has been said already, the problem is that we do not seem able to solve it.

It seems to me and to our side that, as again has been mentioned, we have to be a bit careful that we do not rush into action here. That may seem odd given the number of years we have been working on it but I detect a sense of—what shall we call it?—tentism springing up. We should not do that without thinking very carefully what we are doing. As was said earlier, there are many different ways of demonstrating and it just seems to happen that tents seem to be the vogue at the moment. What that has to do with modern life, I have no idea.

It is also rather sad, in some senses, that the extraordinary contribution to public life which Brian Haw made before his untimely death has been swept away as something that we are against, even though it is in some ways a peculiarly British way of trying to express a view by a sort of silent protest in the face of all possible opposition. With the whole establishment and everybody against it, he continued to make his point. It may not have been to everybody's liking or as effective as he might have wanted it to be but it was there, it was different and it was distinctive. We should worry if we were to squeeze it out by a rush to some form of arrangement.

We also have to be a bit careful about what is happening here. I have never been of the view that a committee is the answer to the problem that we have, and I am a bit surprised to hear other people saying it. Committees do not really solve many things. We had a rather strange intervention last week from the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, who said that the military would have recommended a committee in this situation. I thought that was a contradiction in terms. The other thing that we have to be careful about is that the evening round of the vehicles under Westminster City Council's jurisdiction will be picking up the tents and other materials, if the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, is to be believed. That is really a form of theft, is it not? Again, we should be careful before Parliament legislates in that way. There are people who own those things and we cannot act completely without the rights involved in that.

Noble Lords will detect from what I say that I am sympathetic to what is proposed and would like to support it. The problem is that the amendment in its present form has not been subject to sufficient scrutiny. We had a little of that during Second Reading; in particular, the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, raised a number of points which he felt would improve that Bill. An important way to take forward the aims and objectives of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, is to have the Committee stage at the right time, to try to go through that Bill and improve it. Unfortunately, the timing would not fit with the present Bill. I do not know how we resolve that but I will come back to it in a minute.

However, it seems to me that there are ways in which the elements that the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, is putting forward do fit with the intentions of the Government. It would be sensible to try and bolt together the two impulses so that at Third Reading, before the Bill leaves this House, the Minister can bring forward proposals. I note that when she responded to the debate last week, she said of discussions and meetings that:

“Those are ongoing and I do not rule out the possibility of bringing forward further measures before the Bill completes its passage through this House. I do not think I can give more detail at the moment”.

She always says that, doesn’t she? It is a bit irritating, and I hope that this time we can get down to it. She went on,

“but it is certainly a matter under consideration and the talks are ongoing”.—[Official Report, 1/7/11; col. 2014.]

Well, more time has passed and presumably talks have taken place. Now let us hear where they are, as the time as come for us to try to resolve this, at least in the first stage.

We on this side would like to support the intention behind the Bill. In summary, we think that provision would be better incorporated within this Bill and taken forward as one piece of legislation. However, it will need—

[Lord Morgan]

The noble Lord constantly says, “We on this side believe”. I do not recognise his views as at all representative of me. I have been a member of the Labour Party since 1955 and I see no relation between my long-held opinions and what are supposed to be the views of our Front Bench. I think that our Front Bench should cover itself with a fig leaf of modesty.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I was trying to cover myself with a fig leaf of invisibility—and I will do that now.

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his amendment. Indeed, it was just two weeks ago that we had a more extensive debate on his Private Member’s Bill on this subject. The Government are committed to restoring rights to non-violent protest. They are also committed to ensuring that everyone can enjoy public spaces and do not consider it acceptable for people to camp on Parliament Square. Therefore, we are taking a new approach to the square. Instead of trying to deal with the problem of encampment by criminalising and targeting protests and protestors, what we have brought forward seeks to prevent the disruptive activities that have caused concern—namely, erecting tents and staying overnight with sleeping equipment. We hope that we have done this in a targeted, proportionate and enforceable way that applies to all, not just to protestors.

I stress that the Government wholly appreciate my noble friend’s intentions behind his amendments. We are in complete agreement with the need for a Parliament Square, clear of tents, that can be enjoyed by all. That of course includes those who wish to come to make their views known and to protest. We believe that that should also open up the possibility for those who may want to demonstrate in a peaceful way through all-night vigils—something that is precluded at the moment.

We wholly agree that we need the different enforcement agencies to work closely together to achieve this. We also agree that the square should be a thriving space that accommodates protests by all groups, not just a few. However, I am afraid that my noble friend’s amendments will not achieve that. They risk leading to a significant escalation in confrontation and disorder, which our proposals are crafted to avoid. I cannot see how my noble friend’s proposals will result in anything other than nightly stand-offs between police and council workers on the one side and on the other groups that will disregard the views of the committee that he proposes to put in place.

This is not just government hysteria or hyperbole; this is based on the experience recorded by the courts of wilful disregard for the law by groups such as Democracy Village and a determination by the present encampment to challenge both legally and confrontationally on the ground any attempt to move them or their equipment. Furthermore, even assuming that they could be moved, the net effect for those who use Parliament Square will be no different. After a nightly battle, the tents and other structures would simply be re-erected at 6 am the next day. The square would be clear only when no one was around to witness it. As I understand my noble friend’s amendments, he suggests—and he repeated it in his opening remarks—that council refuse collectors should simply sweep the square at midnight and clear it of detritus. I would like to put it to my noble friend that there may be people attached to that detritus, and there would almost certainly be people inside the tents.

The Government had originally proposed that the powers to use reasonable force in enforcing our provisions should be available to authorised and trained officers of Westminster Council and the GLA. There was widespread Cross-Bench concern in the House at those enforcement powers. The Government listened and have removed those powers from the Bill. My noble friend’s amendments envisage refuse collectors seizing tents and other structures. We do not think that that is appropriate, proportionate or desirable. If that were indeed their responsibility, it would certainly contribute to the nightly scuffles and punch-ups that I have alluded to.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Thursday 14th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones and the Minister will recall that I spoke on this matter in Committee. I have no intention of running the risk of prolonging the debate by repeating what I said on that occasion, but nothing that has happened since the previous stage alters in any way the views I then expressed. The only thing I would say in a wholly friendly manner to my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones is that I used the human rights argument on a series of occasions during our debates on the Licensing Bill in 2003. I have to say, in a manner which I hope he will not find too discouraging, that on every single occasion the Front Bench of the then Government shut me up and told me that I did not actually have a case to argue.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I am a bit intimidated by the thought that I might have to defend not only the point that we are talking about today but the whole panoply of human rights law, but perhaps we can duck that for now. As has been mentioned already, we had a good discussion on these points in Committee and we do not need to go over them. What is disappointing is that, as has been said, we do not seem to have moved on since then. We felt that the Minister’s responses to the original discussion were a bit lacking in the sort of detail required to be convincing, but it would have helped if we had been able to have sight of the guidance she promised. The guidance has not appeared, and therefore we are not much further forward. I hope that the Minister will be able to help us today, but if the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, wishes to seek further support from this Bench, we would certainly be there behind him in the Lobbies.

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords, for some reason we seem to be in a “vote early and vote often” mode today. These amendments seek to remove three clauses from the Bill that lower the evidential threshold that applies to decision-making by licensing authorities. The clauses replace the requirement that licensing authorities should take actions that are “necessary” with the requirement that their actions are “appropriate”. I do not want to engage the House too long on this debate because we would end up rehearsing all that was said in Committee, but I should say that I do not think that the word “convenient” is a substitute for “appropriate”, although I suspect that he was being rather tongue-in-cheek when he said that.

Lowering the threshold will make it less onerous for licensing authorities to refuse or revoke licences if it is appropriate for the promotion of licensing objectives. The four licensing objectives will still apply. My noble friend Lady Hamwee suggested that I was not clear enough about this in Committee, so I reiterate that the four statutory licensing objectives still apply. However, lowering the threshold will make it less onerous for licensing authorities to refuse or revoke licences if it is appropriate for the promotion of the licensing objectives.

I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones for advising me in advance of his concerns. On the “necessary” test and the importance of it being compliant with human rights law, the statutory test of what is appropriate as the basis on which licensing authorities must make decisions—alongside clear guidance to those authorities as to what is meant by this threshold, and the availability of statutory rights of appeal for licensing applicants and others affected by licensing decisions—ensures that the ECHR rights of those affected by licensing decisions are safeguarded. My noble friend prayed in aid his experience of previous legislation in this area. The requirement that an interference with ECHR rights must be “necessary” is a concept that has been developed in the context of human rights law and is not directly comparable with the meaning of “necessary” as it currently appears in the Licensing Act 2003.

My noble friend suggested that the only right of appeal against licensing decisions, including the imposition of conditions, is judicial review. That is not correct. Section 181 of the Licensing Act 2003 already provides for a statutory right of appeal to the magistrates’ court against most decisions by licensing authorities, including decisions on the granting or revocation of a licence and the conditions attached.

I must also inform the House that although it has been suggested that the Local Government Association is against these proposed changes, that is not the Government’s understanding. Indeed, in response to our consultation on rebalancing the Licensing Act, the LG Group said that it “broadly welcomes this proposal”.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

305ZB: Clause 123, page 85, line 17, at end insert “, and
( ) the costs of social services and trading standards when discharging their functions as responsible authorities under this Act”

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, we discussed this matter in Committee and we want to probe further whether the Government have moved in their thinking. We welcome the Government’s move through Clause 123 to allow licensing authorities the ability to set fees locally on the basis of full cost recovery. Operating the licence system since 2005 has cost council tax payers over £100 million more than they anticipated due to the current, centrally set fee structure, which does not allow licensing authorities to set cost-neutral local charges. Given the economic climate, there is a real imperative to allow cost-neutral fees to be set as soon as possible. However, as we discussed last time, there is a drafting error within Clause 123, which would mean two-tier authorities not being able fully to recover all the costs associated with licensing. This was debated in Committee. When the Minister replied, he acknowledged that, as drafted, the Bill would exclude the relevant costs of trading standards and social services departments and that, even though they were discharging duties under the Licensing Act, they would not be able to recover them. He concluded by saying:

“I see sense in the intention of [the amendment] and, if I may, I shall reflect on it further”.—[Official Report, 16/6/11; col. 911.]

The purpose of the amendment is to press the Government for their response on this issue. I hope that they have some good news for us.

[Baroness Hamwee]

I support the amendment. I reacted rather to the suggestion that what is a marginal cost is therefore almost irrelevant in the case of the authorities affected. I, too, look forward to hearing the outcome of the reflection.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I think that the noble Lord opposite and I would have heard if there had been a discussion. I put that rather gently but firmly.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

There was, I think, a hint of menace in what the noble Baroness was saying. She was leaning forward slightly, and it was well judged to deliver that blow.

The LGA has indeed been concerned about this issue and has circulated documents widely which address the issue and make the main points that I repeated in the discussions earlier. It has also made it clear that it is very concerned about this matter. Although the Minister said that it was a marginal cost, every pound is important to local government. It is unfortunate that the Government have said that the cost of the bureaucracy of this might outweigh its benefits when those who are responsible for delivering it say that they want it to happen.

The Government are hiding under the question of bureaucracy. They promised a very important principle—that there would be a full cost recovery basis for licensing. They have gone so far down the line but they are not prepared to go the further stage. This is a disappointing result and we would like to test the opinion of the House.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

I support all these amendments, too. I will not repeat what the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and my noble friend Lord Faulkner have said because I fully support all their contributions, but it is worth pointing out that the BTP is pretty unique as a very specialist police force. I think the statistics are that half of its officers tend to operate in London, both on the Underground and on the main line, and the rest are split between the main line elsewhere in the country and Network Rail.

When it comes to dealing with incidents—whether it is some of the bad behaviour that my noble friend Lord Faulkner was mentioning or cable theft on the railway, which is a very serious issue and delays many trains—the BTP’s specialist knowledge in working safely on the lines, where there are sometimes high-speed trains and which sometimes can be electrified, is probably unique. When one has been delayed on the railways and has seen the difference in response professionalism between the local force that probably has not had much experience of this and the BTP, it brings into focus how important it is that the BTP’s expertise is maintained and enhanced.

It is absolutely essential that the ideas behind these amendments—that the BTP is put on the same footing as Home Office forces—are accepted. I hope the noble Baroness will accept the principle, but I wonder whether there is a problem because the BTP is the responsibility of the Department for Transport and other forces are the responsibility of the Home Office. I sometimes detect a kind of tension between the two, which the two previous noble Lords have also alluded to. I hope that these amendments will help to improve relationships and—something I see as being thoroughly important—enable BTP officers to move around, not just on the railways but in adjacent areas where they need to do their work without the constraint of having to apply to go into another force’s territory.

I look forward to hearing what the noble Baroness will say in response and I thoroughly support these amendments.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

My Lords, I shall make only three brief points. Like the others who have spoken, I should like to hear what the Minister will say in response to the case that has been put forward. When I spoke to these amendments in Committee, I am afraid I got into the history of the BTP but I will not repeat that. Noble Lords will know that my concern for and interest in the branch is real.

The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, gave us an interesting history and pointed out some of the difficulties that the BTP has faced in trying to make its case to the Government. Those are very powerful and persuasive points. The additional comments from my noble friends Lord Faulkner and Lord Berkeley have made a pretty irresistible case. It is time to look at how the geographic forces interrelate with the BTP and vice versa. The safety of the travelling public and the interests of all concerned would benefit from that. I am concerned that it is perhaps more complex than has been said in the past few minutes. Therefore, we shall need to look at that sometime. However, I hope the Minister will reassure us that she will not leave it to ordinary processes and that, on this occasion, she will tackle what is required positively to give us some hope that the situation will not be allowed to drag on, and so that we get some resolution to these points.

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. I shall start by speaking to Amendments 242, 243, 271 and 272. In Committee I was grateful for noble Lords’ comments about the importance of integrated policing between the British Transport Police and the geographic police forces. This is why my honourable friend the Minister of State for Transport and I fully agree that these changes merit closer examination. I can assure noble Lords that, in taking this matter forward between us, there is certainly no tension between the two Ministers involved. I hope we shall meet fairly soon to set out and discuss what is behind these amendments and how we might take that forward in a practical way. I pledge to take a personal interest in the progress of this.

The proposed amendments cover a range of detailed and technical changes. These would significantly affect the status, jurisdiction and powers of the British Transport Police. It is therefore essential that the intentions of the amendments proposed are fully understood and that the consequences of the changes, for both the British Transport Police and wider policing, are closely examined. In particular, we need to ensure that the seemingly simple and straightforward legislative changes sought do not bring with them any unintended consequences. For example, Amendment 242 would change Section 1 of the Police Act 1996 to make,

“the area over which the British Transport Police Force has jurisdiction”,

into a police area for the purposes of the Act. The effect of this would be that references to police areas in any other legislation would apply to the police area of the British Transport Police, as defined in the amendment. A quick search has shown that there are 370 occurrences of the phrase “police area” in primary legislation. The impact of extending them all to the British Transport Police would be wide-ranging.

I have some detailed illustrations of what that would mean, including matters to do with the Children Act 2004, local safeguarding children boards and the Police (Property) Act. However, given the lateness of the hour, I hope noble Lords will understand that very careful and detailed consideration is needed before putting this into primary legislation. However, I am in touch with colleagues in the Department for Transport, with a view to exploring solutions to this to provide the necessary powers and jurisdiction that the British Transport Police seeks and which will enable it to deliver policing of the railways as efficiently and effectively as possible and without unintended consequences. I have discussed this with colleagues in the Department for Transport, and this examination and seeking to find the right way in which to put this into primary legislation will be an ongoing exercise for us. I assure noble Lords that, when appropriate changes are identified, my department will be prepared to consider making the necessary changes within suitable primary legislation. Although I cannot commit to putting the provision at this very late stage into the tail-end of this legislation, we will, as these proposals come forward and are validated, look to put them into primary legislation in future Bills. I understand that there is quite a bit of Home Office legislation coming up the track, if noble Lords will forgive the pun, and I would hope that there would be opportunities.

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Faulkner of Worcester, for their amendments and I thank noble Lords for the support that has been given to them around the House. However, on the basis of what I have said, I ask them not to press their amendments.

I turn to Amendments 304 to 306, which address licensing. These amendments seek to put the British Transport Police on a par with the 43 territorial police forces in England and Wales for the purposes of alcohol licensing. I can see why that might seem a reasonable proposition at first glance. However, I am not able to accept the amendments, as I explained in some detail in Committee last month. However, I shall briefly reiterate the reasons.

Amendment 304 would make the British Transport Police a responsible authority under the Licensing Act 2003, which requires licensing authorities automatically to notify responsible authorities about licence reviews. Licence applicants, who will be local businesses or individuals, must also send copies to their local responsible authorities. In this Bill, we are increasing the list of responsible authorities to include health bodies and licensing authorities in their own right. We do not think it would be helpful to extend the list further to include the British Transport Police. Licensing is administered by local authorities, which make licensing decisions that reflect the needs of the local area. For this reason, the chief officer of police for the geographic area is a responsible authority under the Act. Likewise, other responsible authorities have as their focus the geographic area in which the premises are situated.

The British Transport Police is a broadly non-geographic force, with a specific, non-regional jurisdiction. It covers the transport network as a whole and so will not be relevant to some licensing authority areas. We do not think it would always be obvious in a given local area to which part of the British Transport Police licensing applicants should send their licensing forms. On top of that, the Government are unwilling to add to the burden on businesses by adding responsible authorities unnecessarily.

Of course, the British Transport Police has expert knowledge on alcohol-related late-night crime and disorder around transport hubs and on the transport network. We expect the British Transport Police to have effective lines of communication with the geographic constabularies and that it will continue to use them in future to raise any issues it has relating to alcohol licensing. In addition, I point out that because under this Bill we are removing the test of vicinity from the Licensing Act 2003, it will in future be open for anyone, including members of the British Transport Police, to make representations to the licensing authority in their own right. Applications for new licences do get advertised, and we are taking steps to require licensing authorities to publicise these online. I hope that would be of help to the British Transport Police. Making the British Transport Police a responsible authority would cause unnecessary bureaucracy for licensing applicants.

Amendment 305 seeks to make the British Transport Police a relevant person for the purposes of allowing it to object to temporary events notices. Residents’ organisations told us that, after crime, noise was their greatest concern in relation to temporary events. We are extending the right to object to the environmental health authority and allowing them and the police to object on the grounds of all four licensing objectives. We think that provides adequate protection for residents while again minimising unnecessary bureaucracy. I am confident that if the British Transport Police has concerns about temporary events, it can raise these in the course of their liaison with their local constabularies.