Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Lucy Frazer and Kevin Brennan

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend makes that point far better than I would have made it. Again, her intervention is astute and understands the implications of what the Government have done by including pension payments within the exit cap. If the Government were serious in their rhetoric that doing so would affect only the best paid, it would be straightforward to include a provision in the Bill to exclude those on average earnings or below. On Second Reading, the Minister said:

“What we do know is that there is a very small number of workers in the public sector on about £25,000 who could be caught by this… But those are extremely rare conditions.”—[Official Report, 2 February 2016; Vol. 605, c. 886.]

We are concerned about the Government’s reluctance to make the necessary exemptions to ensure that those unfortunate few, which is what Ministers tell us they are, are not disproportionately affected. If the low and average paid are affected in rare circumstances only, excluding them from the cap will not result in the Government losing a great deal of money, so what is the problem with exempting the low paid from the provisions?

[Lucy Frazer (South East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman know of any private company that pays three times annual salary as an exit payment?

[Kevin Brennan]

That is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing the terms and conditions that public sector workers signed up to in agreement with the Government. In many cases, such people may have been in service for a long time and may well have given up the opportunity to earn more in the private sector by working as loyal public servants.

During the clause 26 discussion on Report in the Lords, Baroness Neville-Rolfe indicated that a drop of £500 would not be disproportionate for someone previously entitled to a pension of £12,500. I have to say that a drop of 4% is significant for somebody on a relatively small income, especially when that income is below that of someone on the national minimum wage. To say that a 4% cut is not significant is highly misleading.

The Government made the case in the House of Lords that leaving with a payment of £95,000 or above would be a large amount for any employee. For example, the Minister in the other place said that she does

“not accept that those exiting with a payment of £95,000”—

which is not the case—

“will generally be subject to hardship”.

The idea that someone will receive £95,000 is a myth. A large amount will never actually be seen by employees on low to average incomes, because the payment includes compensation paid to the pension scheme. My noble Friend Baroness Hayter pointed out that

“they cannot go off and use that money to live on while trying to retrain or move or find another job; it is an actuarial payment that never comes near their bank account… This is not a sum of money they can use to buy themselves an annuity to help train or move or anything else—it is money they never see.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 30 November 2015; Vol. 767, c. 984-985.]

Trade Union Bill

Debate between Lucy Frazer and Kevin Brennan

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Brennan]

My research may have been inadequate, but I have not come across any such examples. However, the Minister must have dozens. Surely he would not single out one particular group in society for this draconian treatment unless he were meting out such treatment to other organisations as well.

[Lucy Frazer]

rose—

[Kevin Brennan]

Oh! The hon. and learned Lady has an example.

[Lucy Frazer]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that when an employer and an employee enter into a contract, it is agreed between them that the employee will turn up for work and will not engage with others to disrupt the employment—[Interruption.] May I finish? The unions’ power to engage in collective activity is an exception to that principle—an exception that must be exercised only in circumstances in which it is justifiable and legitimate.

[Kevin Brennan]

I understand the basis on which, under our law, it has, for more than 100 years, been possible to undertake industrial action lawfully. The hon. and learned Lady may well know that it was a judgment in the part of the world that I represent—along with my hon. Friends the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth and for Cardiff Central—that, more than 100 years ago, led to the requirement for changes to ensure that, as in any civilised democratic society, working people had the right to withdraw their labour if they were involved in a trade dispute. I hope the hon. and learned Lady is not suggesting in any way, shape or form that there should not be that right. As I said earlier, if she was serious about wanting more people to be involved in decisions around trade disputes—in balloting and so on—she would support our new clauses and amendments, which allow for workplace balloting and e-balloting, and easier access to democracy for the people she purports to speak about.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Brennan]

My hon. Friend highlights the lack of thought, consultation and proper scrutiny that has gone into this proposal. It is unravelling by the minute as hon. Members bring their expertise to bear on the implications that it has out there in the real world.

Let me draw attention to some of the other amendments in this group. The Scottish National party has tabled a raft of amendments, some of which were moved in Committee. I understand that the SNP may wish to divide the House on new clause 2, which is in the spirit of our new clauses 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9. Given the time available, if the SNP does that, we will support it in lieu of our new clauses—the same applies in respect of new clause 10. At this point, I should allow somebody else an opportunity.

[Lucy Frazer]

Trade unions play an important role in protecting the rights of employees: through their collective power, they have the ability to balance the scales against an employer, who invariably has greater economic and social power than the employees in its workforce. Last week, I met a few trade union officials from my constituency, and was struck by the passion and desire they have to do their job in representing others. But therein lies the crux of this legislation: it is a union’s job to represent its workforce, so its actions must represent their wishes. It is important that when a union has the power to bring a school, hospital or factory to a temporary standstill, its actions actually reflect the will of its members. I say that for three reasons.