National Health Service

Debate between Nigel Evans and Rosie Cooper

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) on his appointment as shadow Secretary of State for Health, a brief to which he brings valuable experience. We are going to need every bit of that experience, given what the current Secretary of State is doing to bring the NHS to its knees.

I strongly disagree with my colleague on the Health Committee, the hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore). This is not their NHS. This is not your or my NHS. It belongs to the people, all of us. We all have an incredible stake in the NHS. The Secretary of State and the Government play with it, with their reputation and with patients’ needs at their peril. I believe your policy will fundamentally damage the NHS—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. May I remind the House not to use the word “you”? Members speak through the Chair and should use the third person, please.

[Rosie Cooper]

Forgive me. I have a great propensity to do that. I believe passionately in the NHS and I take this all very personally. I apologise.

The Government’s policy will fundamentally damage the health service in terms of both the quality of care available to patients and the founding principles of the NHS. The more we debate Government health policy, the less the Secretary of State seems to be listening, whether to Opposition Members, medical professionals, patients, patient groups or constituents.

I might go further and say that I now believe the Secretary of State occupies a parallel universe—a universe where everyone wholeheartedly supports his policy and believes him when he says that there is real-terms growth in NHS spending, a universe where waiting times are not increasing, people are not being refused treatments, bed-blocking is not happening because of pressure on the social care system, a universe where he never discussed the issue of re-banding of nurses with the Royal College of Nursing.

Unfortunately, while the Secretary of State, ably supported by the Prime Minister, is off in that parallel universe, which we shall call delusional, the rest of us are left facing the terrifying reality of what the Government’s policy means to our constituents and to the national health service. We must disregard the rhetoric and the myth-making of the Conservative party as it seeks to demonstrate that it has changed when it comes to the NHS. Sadly for the health service, the Conservatives have not changed at all.

I have spoken repeatedly about the Prime Minister’s clear promises to the British people—one was that there would be no more pointless top-down reorganisation. He even said:

“When your family relies on the NHS all the time—day after day, night after night—you know how precious it is”.

How quickly those words were forgotten. Michael Portillo comments on the BBC’s “This Week” spoke volumes. He could not have made it clearer that the Government meant to misrepresent their position and mislead their voters. He said:

“They did not believe they could win if they told you what they were going to do.”

My fear is that their broken promises are leading us headlong into a broken NHS.

There is much I could say about how disgracefully the Government started to change NHS structures without the consent of the people or the House. Because of those broken promises, a failure to secure a clear mandate for the reforms from the British public, and an abject failure to secure support from the clinicians and the medical profession, we are left in the present mess. I hear time and again that the doctors, the nurses and the professionals are all behind the Government. Where are they? They are shouting loud and clear, “We’re not with you.”

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[Rosie Cooper]

I will not.

The point is that even if the Secretary of State was not aware of the re-banding, as he claims, that speaks volumes about how out of touch he is with the hard-working staff he is supposed to represent. Perhaps he would like to remove himself from his parallel universe—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I call John Pugh.

Health and Social Care (Re-committed) Bill

Debate between Nigel Evans and Rosie Cooper

Tuesday 6th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Rosie Cooper]

The Minister keeps saying no, but the reality is that, as I told the Secretary of State, you may very well be fooling yourselves, but you are not fooling the public, and the Bill was wrong. That was followed by a pause, and when you admitted that you had got various bits of it wrong, you then said—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. The hon. Lady must desist from using the word “you”, as it refers to the Chair.

[Rosie Cooper]

I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker. Each time I said “you”, I meant the Secretary of State.

The Secretary of State simply threw the Bill at the British public after the Prime Minister had promised that this would not happen. I have been very clear in the speeches I have made so far on the Bill that the only people the Secretary of State is fooling are those in the Tory party. He has made changes to the Bill, but we are now beginning the great mix-up and going back to exactly where we were.

The hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Mark Simmonds) said that Labour did not want progress and good value, and that the coalition programme was all about ensuring that the NHS survived and getting a good return for the taxpayer. Let me tell him that I am absolutely passionate about the NHS. I expect value for money, cutting-edge treatment, efficiency and the best possible care for everyone in this country. The lives of every taxpayer and every family depend on the care they get from the NHS. Second rate will not do for me at all.

However, I do not believe that throwing a grenade into the NHS systems will achieve that. Even breaking big promises will not achieve that, because that will break the trust. I suggest to the Conservative party that the Great British public gave tentative support during the general election and will now withdraw that support rapidly as the Bill progresses. The Conservatives expect the public to believe that the party that promised no top-down reorganisation and then broke that promise can be trusted when it says that there will be no privatisation of the NHS, yet evidence comes to light via freedom of information requests that that is not the case.

What are patients out there actually experiencing? Again, Conservative Members can fool themselves. When they went to accident and emergency units they saw that the four-hour waiting time was being exceeded, so they abolished it. It is already taking longer to treat fewer people, which does not strike me as particularly efficient or good value for money. It took 13 years of a Labour Government to rebuild the NHS after what the previous Conservative Government did to it. Labour reduced waiting lists from two years to 18 weeks. It has taken the coalition Government less than a year to wreck it all again. Broken promises are leading us to an NHS that is broken again.

Let us look at what is currently happening in the NHS. There are two different processes at work: financial efficiency gains and structural reform. The idea was to ask the system to make efficiency gains of 4% each year for four years. On top of that there is the reorganisation, which a Conservative Member has likened to tossing a grenade into the system. We have had muddle, pause, fog and are now effectively back to where we were some time ago.

The reforms do not address the financial challenges, especially the Nicholson challenge. This is costly—making people redundant, throwing organisations into disarray and telling people, “You don’t have a future, you might have a future,” “Let’s have a cluster, let’s not have a cluster,” “Where are you going to work?”, “It’s all going to disappear by 2013,” “There are no PCTs—well, they’re there really, but clusters will do the work,” “No, we don’t have strategic health authorities—well, okay, we’ll keep four of them.” The Marx brothers would be proud of the stops, turns, U-turns, pauses and muddle that there have been. But the bottom line is that the great British public have to watch those antics and are worried about their health service.

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[Rosie Cooper]

How much? I will give way if the Minister tells me exactly how much it is all going to cost. I shall happily sit down; there you go. [Interruption.]

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. This is not a conversation but a debate. I do not think that the Minister indicated that he wished to intervene.

[Rosie Cooper]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. You will forgive me; my lip reading was obviously slightly wrong. He looked as if he was trying to tell me something, and I hoped that it might be the answer.

In all such situations I always say, “Follow the money.” What is actually going to happen? If this is costing a lot of money—there is a lot of muddle—it has to be really clear that the driver of the reforms cannot be, as the Secretary of State has previously said, the idea that the NHS is unaffordable; we seem to be able to afford a lot of other things. If the reason is not financial efficiency, it has to be purely ideological.

I understand that 85% of respondents to the NHS Confederation survey were very clear: the hardest job that they could have is to deliver both NHS changes and savings simultaneously. That makes it harder for them to deliver objectives for improving efficiency and quality—but that is what I am told that Government Members are all about; the Bill is supposed to improve efficiency and quality.

Who is going to deliver the health care? The Royal College of Nursing suggests that 27,000 front-line jobs, equivalent to nine Alder Hey children’s hospitals, will disappear. I asked the NHS Confederation whether we would see hospital closures, and it is clear that we will; we are seeing that in various reports. The Bill is three times longer than the Act that created the NHS, and it leaves more questions than answers. I say to the Government that if they believe that the great British public will be fooled by any of this, they are sadly wrong.

I do not normally make personal statements about anybody, but Roy Lilley, a former NHS professional, writes a blog in which he refers to the Secretary of State as “LaLa”; I am sure the Secretary of State has seen it. I have been hearing “La la” all afternoon. This is just nonsense. Just because the Secretary of State or the Tory party says that the world is square, that does not mean that it is. They are insulting the public if they think that they will go along with them.

Monitor makes decisions about the future sustainability of individual services and the patterns of local health services under the failure regime. It is unclear how those decisions would be made, and how and to whom Monitor is accountable. Technically it is an independent body and it should be responsible to Parliament and the Secretary of State, but perhaps the Secretary of State will clarify that.

As the economic regulator, Monitor is given a whole series of powers that ultimately focus on enforcing competition in the NHS. There are still fundamental gaps in how that organisation will be held to account. There is a lack of clarity about how health services can engage with and influence the work of Monitor. Having been chair of a foundation trust hospital, albeit only for a month—because I stood for Parliament and had to resign—I can say that Monitor was a law unto itself. And before the Health Committee, Monitor likened the NHS to utility companies, which does not give me any confidence whatever.

I want to talk about Monitor not consulting commissioners on changes to enhance tariff. Private providers can apply to Monitor for an enhanced tariff to preserve the services that they, as private businesses, are providing to the NHS.

Housing Benefit

Debate between Nigel Evans and Rosie Cooper

Tuesday 9th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman comment on my local authority, West Lancashire borough council? It wanted to build a new civic centre, and in so doing said that it would build affordable houses and in the process knock down four good homes. While he is speaking about that—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. I call Bob Blackman, who has four seconds left.