Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Monday 11th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, we have been pleased to support the legislation, which overall we think is very good, and we have said that to the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe. Indeed, the Government have listened, as have all the Ministers on the Bill, and made significant changes. Now we are left with just two amendments, put forward by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, and the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, which deal with two issues that remain outstanding but are of significant importance and deserve our support and consideration.

I want to reference one or two points made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, because he made them particularly well. It is a proportionate and reasonable amendment to ask of the Government. There are all sorts of regulations and legislation—the noble and learned Lord referenced them—to which we say small businesses should be subject to, because we believe that it is the right thing to do and the right climate in which those businesses should operate. When it comes to the failure to prevent, the Government point out that 50% are covered by their legislation, which of course leaves 50% that are not.

Throughout the passage of the Bill, many of us have sought to ensure that the failure to prevent—which is a good step forward—applies, as far as possible, to as many businesses as it possibly can. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, asked why we would exclude many small businesses when they are not excluded from other legislation that may be seen as a burden. The argument is hollow and does not cut through. For that reason, and because the noble and learned Lord has put forward an amendment that takes into account what was said in the Commons, it deserves our support. Should he put it to a vote, as I think he suggested he would, we will support him.

Similarly, the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, notwithstanding the correction he made to the amendment, brings forward a very important point indeed. One of the great criticisms that is often made about dealing with fraud is that somehow law enforcement agencies are frightened of taking on the people who are committing fraud. I always thought it should be the other way around; the fraudster should be frightened of the law enforcement agency. Yet, for some bizarre reason, it is that way around—that cannot be right. It is not something that any of us want to be the case. Through his amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, has tried yet again to push the Government to do better and to do more than what is currently in the Bill. His amendment says to the Government, “Surely we should do better”. Indeed, the Treasury itself should be confident in the work of the law enforcement agencies. Some have suggested that those agencies should be indemnified against any costs they may incur.

I go back to two simple points. First is the point in the amendment from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier: why should small businesses be excluded from this legislation, other than the micro-businesses to which he referred, when we do not exclude them from other legislation that we think is important? Small businesses adhere to that legislation in the same way as other businesses. Secondly, the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, gives us an opportunity to turn the tables and ensure that, rather than the law enforcement agencies being frightened of costs they may incur in ensuring that fraudsters are brought to book, the fraudsters are frightened. That is why, if the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, and the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, put their amendments to a vote, we will certainly support them.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I will respond relatively briefly; I think I have rehearsed the majority of the arguments widely and frequently, and there is not much point in saying more to some of them. However, the precise point I was trying to make in my opening remarks is, in essence, about proportionality. My noble friend Lady Noakes referred to that extremely eloquently.

My noble and learned friend Lord Garnier oftens points out that 99.5% of business is exempted, but I repeat that this is very much a judgment call because 50% of economic activity is captured. My noble friend Lady Noakes referred to the opportunity cost and the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, suggested that perhaps this is about businesses not checking whether they in some way have the right procedures in place to prevent fraud, but it is not about that. It is about many other factors that do not involve the business at hand, as my noble friend Lady Noakes referred to. Those other burdens are obviously partially financial, but not fully.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 20th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I greatly appreciate the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Fox; I am so glad that he said that. I do not mind if some friction is sometimes required in order to make sure that the messages are heard loud and clear. I am glad that the noble Lord has reaffirmed his position, that of his party and that of the main opposition party. We all agree on this, but it is important because I was picked up on it today. It sounds as if we are at war with a legitimate sector and the legitimate concept of how to structure companies, which are at the very core of our capitalist system and have created so much wealth for us. I am glad that we are united on this point.

I was asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, about the number of entities that have registered with the register of overseas entities. I have a figure of 27,000, which represents a high level of compliance. I hope that figure satisfies her request, but I would be happy to publish further figures or to answer her in writing on that.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I will just reinforce the point that the noble Lord, Lord Fox, made. To be honest, I do not think the Minister was implying that we were condemning the whole of business, but the noble Lord, Lord Fox, made an important point. The Committee is trying to say that, overall, we all support the Bill but we want to ensure that it is effective, understandable and enforced. In challenging the Government, we seek not to undermine business but to improve what most of us regard as a reasonable Bill.

The only other point I make to the Minister is that—I think we all accept this—public opinion is frustrated about what it sees as a lack of action in respect of certain bad business practices, such as the laundering of money. Lots of fraud and economic crime takes place but is not seen as a priority by the state—irrespective of whether you mean Labour, the Liberal Democrats, the Conservatives, the Scottish nationalists or whoever—which does not take this seriously. I suggest to the Government that, if I were a government Minister, I would parade much more powerfully than the Government have done that we are trying to ensure that public anger is assuaged by the fact that we are no longer prepared to see Russian money used in the way it has been nor to see bad practice, which means, frankly, that good business is undermined.

This is the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Fox. Good businesses, which represent the majority of the country, want something done about bad business because it undermines them. This is a really important point; I think it is the point that the Minister was trying to make. This is a good Bill but it needs to be improved. From what he has said to us, I think the Minister will take on board many of the comments that have been—and will be—made and change the Bill. But it is also about saying, “Of course the majority of business is good, but there is bad practice out there and it needs sorting out”. Good business wants that to happen as much as members of this Committee do.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, as I said in moving this amendment, our concern is around the Bill, when it becomes an Act, having the resources and the international co-operation structure to make it effective.

The Minister talked about exchanging information, but there is also the question of enforcement. If we are trying to enforce on someone who is based in the UAE, Panama or Singapore—let alone Hong Kong—these things are not easy. We all recognise that since 1989 a number of mistakes have been made. This Government—and this country under different parties in government—made a succession of mistakes in our handling of Russian money as it came into the country. Many of those mistakes have now been corrected, but we have to admit that we did not handle this very well and we now find ourselves in a situation in which other financial centres are extremely difficult to investigate. One looks at the Wirecard scandal, for example. One of the world’s major accounting firms failed to discover that a substantial chunk of the assets that Wirecard was declaring, which were alleged to be in Singapore and Malaysia, did not exist.

Clearly, the need for active exchanges between Governments, central banks and others is vital in this situation. That is what we are trying to ensure happens. Yes, it is a small number of companies, but it is not a small amount of money. That, therefore, has to concern us if the Bill is to be a useful reform and a worthwhile Act.

I remind the Minister that that the FATF grey list at the moment includes the Cayman Islands and Gibraltar, as well as the United Arab Emirates, Turkey and a number of other countries with which we have close ties. I am conscious that 100,000 British citizens now live in the United Arab Emirates, many of whom are actively engaged in the international financial industry. That has to be a matter of concern to us. Not very long ago, some in the House were talking about the activities of UAE intelligence services with regard to UAE nationals on British soil. There are a great many difficult issues that we have to cope with here. We also understand that this situation is not static. The communications revolution has already made the transfer of money around the world much faster than it was 10 to 20 years ago, and we need to keep up with that.

I should have mentioned another OECD initiative that is related to economic crime, on base erosion and profit shifting. It is concerned with tax evasion, which I include as part of economic crime. That is another area in which Governments are beginning to co-operate. It is very difficult to gain co-operation. The entire British Government are not always as keen on co-operation as some parts are, because some departments naturally have different interests from those of others. I raised the question of Whitehall co-ordination and where its leadership sits, and it probably needs to change, as it just has in America, because the nature of the problems we face is also changing.

I withdraw my amendment, but I hope that these conversations will continue. I express our shared concern that legitimate international finance will prosper and that aspects of international finance that are illegitimate will be carefully monitored and prevented.

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[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not know whether the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, are flawed but, if I followed them correctly, Amendments 75 and 76 in particular seek to put a human face on limited partnerships, so that at list one partner is a natural person and they are not all corporate entities.

Before I make a couple of general comments about that, can I ask the Minister a question? I could not make out from the various debates I have read about this whether the Government are saying that they will look at it in secondary legislation or that they are not going to do it. I will be corrected if I am wrong, but I thought I had read that the Government are intending to require this, but by secondary legislation.

I do not think it is adequate to require this by secondary legislation. What the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, alighted on goes to the point made earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, which has run through all the Committee—namely, who is the ultimate beneficiary? Who, in the end, gains from these various business practices? The most obvious way around that is to require a human face or somebody who is actually real.

The Minister, who is a businessman himself as well as a government Minister, said that he understands the importance of keeping public opinion on side. The public have lost trust in business from the many ways in which bad business is conducted. We had debates earlier about trusts and about privacy, and I think the Minister disappointed the Committee by saying that this was not the place for a debate about privacy and that that would be for a further debate.

The Minister is saying that the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, is flawed because this will be dealt with through secondary legislation. My view is that it is of such symbolic importance that, somewhere along the line, the Bill requires a human face. I know that this is in respect to limited partnerships, but I think the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, has alighted on quite an important point. We continually go back to this: how do we get transparency, restore public confidence and hold bad businesses to account? How do we overcome the fact that large numbers of people, including me, think that trusts, corporate entities, limited partnerships, et cetera, are in some instances set up to hide what is actually going on? That is something that the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, is trying to do. Ultimately, it makes a human face, somebody who is a Mr, Ms, Mrs or whatever, responsible for this aspect of business. They will be held to account.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, that there is nothing flawed about making at least one partner in a limited partnership a natural person. It is a really important statement about how business ought to operate, which should be required not through secondary legislation but in the Bill, to show how the Government intend to ensure that we have proper business practice that is consistent with the will of Parliament. One of the ways of doing that is to ensure that, instead of some faceless bureaucracy somewhere, however it is dressed up legally, we actually have an individual who can be held to account.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I believe that I can confirm that but I will ensure that those facts are properly presented. It is clearly helpful for us to be specific on that.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

If somebody fails to comply properly with registering their PSC, that is a criminal offence, as I understand it. Can the Minister confirm that failing to register the PSC properly is a criminal offence? Secondly, what are the penalties for that offence?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I am going through a slightly different point in this amendment, if the noble Lord will forgive me. I can confirm that it is a criminal offence. There is a published tariff that varies according to jurisdiction. If noble Lords do not mind, we will present that. I believe that there might be sections of the criminal tariffs in the Bill, but it is important as this is criminality. Perhaps one of the noble Lords in the Committee will be able to extract the tariff from the Bill but I will certainly write to noble Lords. They are significant penalties and fines; it is more than six months in prison in some jurisdictions. It depends on whether it is tried in Scotland and so on. I do not have all those details to hand but we will clarify that.

This is very serious. Criminality in the corporate world is an important element of what we are trying to prevent. As noble Lords know, we will discuss the “failure to prevent” principles in the next day of Committee. It changes significantly, as has been seen to be successful, in jurisdictions such as the United States of America. As the noble Lord has raised before in terms of public participation in our belief in a liberal, democratic, property-owning capitalist system, it is felt that, if we do not punish the perpetrators of financial crimes and it is felt that they are getting away with it, through either their being unable to easily prosecuted or their not being punished severely, it brings the system into disrepute and causes significant long-term philosophical and societal damage.

We look across the Atlantic at the United States and feel that it takes a different view. Financial crime is treated there as serious and significant crime, and commensurate penalties go with it. The case of Madoff was raised, where the initial tariff was a pretty significant landmark sentence—many hundreds of years, if I am not mistaken. It was certainly over 100 years or close to it, which obviously shows the principles by which that country approaches this point. While we are not operating under similar tariffs, it is important that we see criminal acts in financial crimes as significant. The tariffs around that need to reflect it, but I am happy to provide further information.

Perhaps I may finish this piece, because I hope it is relatively straightforward and that Committee members will be reassured by what we are doing. We will not support this amendment and I will ask the noble Lord to withdraw it, but the principles around making sure that we have transparency and identifiable actors in corporate structures are clearly made.

On the case of the two month-old married individual who was registered as a beneficial owner of the entity that my noble friend Lord Agnew cited, the point actually raised is that it has been recorded. It will certainly now be possible, if not essential—to some extent, with a situation as significant as that, it should have been possible—that Companies House now investigates that type of registered entry. I raise that in the sense that we are trying to ensure that the information is provided, which will set off alarm bells and allow for inquiry. We cannot prevent people from false entry. What we can do is to ensure that the penalties are there to discourage it, the investigative powers and data-scraping are sufficient to enable us to pursue it, and the data we have is clean and clear.

I do not have too long to go on these two amendments, if noble Lords will indulge me. I wish to stress to my noble friend Lord Agnew that this Government completely agree with the principle that we should have greater transparency over who is managing and controlling a limited partnership. There is much in this Bill which will achieve exactly that. The Bill includes a range of measures that will make it mandatory—I restate this—for limited partnerships to submit a much greater range of information about their partners, including their current and former names, addresses and dates of birth.

The general partners of limited partnerships will be required to have their identities verified. The PSC regulations apply to certain legal entities, including incorporated bodies such as companies and LLPs, and are about exposing who controls them. This can be otherwise unclear, given the corporate structure of those entities. While companies and partnerships share many similar characteristics, they are nevertheless fundamentally different. A limited partner, for example, does not have voting rights in the way that a shareholder does and, unlike an LLP, there is nothing in law which would force a limited partnership to have a written partnership agreement—I think this dates back to the 1880s—though many will have one.

As I have said, partnerships in England, Wales and Northern Ireland are registrable business relationships, not separate legal personalities. As such, they cannot be beneficially owned in the same way that companies and LLPs can. It would take a fundamental review of partnership legislation more broadly to apply beneficial ownership-style transparency measures to English and Welsh, and Northern Irish, limited partnerships in the way that my noble friend intends. For these reasons, I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment but I am very comfortable about discussions to ensure that he and any other members of the Committee are comfortable that what we are doing achieves these ends.

Amendments 75 and 76, also tabled by my noble friend Lord Agnew, would require limited partnerships and limited liability partnerships to have at least one partner who is a natural person. The Government consulted extensively on the reforms to these corporate structures. It was clearly found that corporate partners can be a legitimate and critical part of certain UK fund structures, allowing them to operate effectively. While I understand the intent of these amendments and share the desire to tackle opaque chains of corporate partners in partnerships, as with companies, having discussed the principles of these structures, it is difficult to suggest that now would be an appropriate time to make such a change.

Clause 144 already contains powers which will enable restrictions to be placed on corporate partners, as with corporate directors of companies. However, limited partnerships and limited liability partnerships have very different corporate structures to companies. Therefore we must have careful consideration and consultation is needed before any restrictions are made.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

I thank the Minister for introducing his amendments. I broadly support them from these Benches. I note, not churlishly, that this again boosts what Companies House knows but not what it publishes. I make the point again that perhaps the default position should be the other way around.

I particularly welcome Amendment 77K. Consultation with the Scottish and Northern Ireland Governments is an important feature of what should happen.

My noble friend Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted co-signed two of the amendments and, were she here, I am sure that she would have something important to say in addition to what the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, said, but I do not. However, I have a memory of history which the Minister did not experience because he was not here at the time—namely, the process we went through to pass the precursor to this Bill.

The reason why many of us stayed our hands on this issue at the time was that the Government intended to put this through in two days: one day in the Commons and one day in the Lords. We went through all the processes in one day. The passing of amendments would have seriously jeopardised that process and none of us on opposition Benches, the Cross Benches or indeed the Government Benches wanted to do that. The Government made one or two changes to the Bill on their own account, but the promise was that, come this Bill, we would have the opportunity to revisit some of those issues.

To accommodate the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, was pretty explicit about the opportunity we would have in this Bill to have the debate. That is why we are having this debate and why we all have some expectation that the Minister should be able to help us along these lines.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I will very briefly support the remarks made by the noble Lords, Lord Faulks and Lord Fox, and the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

I also broadly welcome the Minister’s amendments. I have just one question, on Amendment 77L, to which I am sure there is an easy answer. It says:

“In this Schedule ‘the relevant period’ means the period … beginning with 28 February 2022 … ending with 31 January 2023”.


How were those dates arrived at?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I appreciate the input of all noble Lords in this Committee. That period comprises the implementation, when the Act came into force, and the compliance date. Effectively, the law announced that you had to be compliant by a certain date. There is a seven-month lead-in time and the Government are concerned that people used that time to avoid the date at which they have to declare. We are, in effect, backdating the transparency, which is very sensible. I hope the noble Lord supports that.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I appreciate that comment; I had not thought about that. We have not done a government impact assessment that could be published, such as the ones relating to the trade Bills that I have worked on, but if we can provide useful feedback on how we have come to some of our conclusions it would be helpful to do that. I would have thought that, in the lead-up to this, noble Lords would have made inquiries from some of the key sectors to gain good information from them, as we have.

I know for a fact that not every element, clause or amendment has been specifically consulted on because that would be impractical but, broadly speaking, we have received a great deal of information, as I understand it. My noble friend Lord Leigh’s amendment, on the publication of auditor changes, which we discussed earlier, came from our consultation with whatever august body of auditors it was that we discussed. As all noble Lords here know, I am comfortable being as open as possible. However, if I may, I will bring us to a conclusion because I would like to finish our last piece of business today, without a cost to democratic scrutiny.

I will attend to the comment from the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, about Amendment 77AA. I refute his point that this information can be a year old because that cannot be the case. The application for removal must contain information about the state of affairs at the date of the application. I do not mean to be pugnacious, but I believe that I am correct in saying that, in terms of removal from the register, the information that the noble Lord wishes to see—as we do—to prevent exactly the sorts of things that he is talking about will be there. I am very happy to double-confirm after the debate that, broadly speaking, I am right in my commitment. I would not like to give false promises, but the assumption—I have been reassured by officials during this debate—is that we are in line.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

May I just make one point about process? I think my noble friend Lord Ponsonby made this point earlier, and we have just heard it again. On quite a large number of occasions the Minister has said that he will write, provide reassurances, come back to Peers, and share letters, information, how various conclusions have been arrived at and what consultations there have been. I know that the Minister and his officials will do that but, to help move us to Report, I ask them to reflect on how to do all that in as short a period of time as possible to allow those of us who want to to consider what happened in Committee and the various conclusions. That is important so that we have a manageable Report and we deliver the sort of Bill that we want.

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for those points. As I have made clear, I hope noble Lords do not think that I am kicking the can down the road.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I honestly do not think that the Minister is doing that; I was just trying to stress to him the importance of that process.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 18th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

To add further irrelevance—no, just irrelevance; I apologise to my noble friend—I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, and the Labour Party have moved this amendment. When we debated identity cards in the dim and distant days when Tony Blair was Prime Minister, one of the great things that was stressed by the then Labour Government was that there should be a photograph of the person in question, but they did not say that it should be of the person’s face. This enabled cheeky Members of the Opposition to tease—I cannot remember whether the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, was a Home Office Minister at the time—

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I am not admitting it.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

We had a great deal of fun working out which part of the identified person’s anatomy should form the main part of the photograph. I am happy to say that the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, has obviously learned from that hideous experience. This seems an altogether better set of proposals.

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Moved by

[Lord Coaker]

64: After Clause 91, insert the following new Clause—
“Reporting requirements
(1) The Secretary of State must publish an annual report assessing whether the powers available to the Secretary of State and the registrar are sufficient to enable the registrar to achieve its objectives under section 1081A of the Companies Act 2006 (inserted by section 1 of this Act).(2) Each report must—(a) make a recommendation as to whether further legislation should be brought forward in response to the report, (b) provide a breakdown of the registrar’s annual expenditure,(c) provide a recommendation as to whether charges for fees for the incorporation of a company should be amended,(d) contain the details of the steps the registrar has taken to promote the registrar’s objectives under this Act,(e) provide annual data on the number of companies that have been struck off by the registrar, the number of companies that have been required to change names by the registrar, the number of fines and the average and total amount of fines the registrar has issued, the number of criminal convictions made, and of cases of suspected unlawful activity identified by the registrar as a result of the registrar’s powers as set out in this Act,(f) provide annual data on the number of cases referred by the registrar to law enforcement bodies and anti-money laundering supervisors,(g) provide annual data on the total number of company incorporations to the registrar, and the number of company incorporations by authorised corporate service providers to the registrar, and(h) detail all instances in which exemption powers have been used by the Secretary of State, as introduced by this Act.(3) The first report must be published within one year of this Act being passed.(4) A further report must be published at least once a year.(5) The Secretary of State must lay a copy of each report before each House of Parliament.”

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to address the Committee for the first time this afternoon. The theme of the discussions earlier was transparency. The noble Lord, Lord Vaux, made an outstanding speech about why transparency is important. Other noble Lords talked about this being a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for this Parliament to progress in a way that perhaps we have been slow to do, which has led to many of the things that the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, pointed out in his remarks about the exploitation of the economic and business laxness in London and beyond that has led to things that all of us deplore. The Bill gives us a real opportunity to tackle that. The Minister’s response is crucial for us to determine what we may wish to push the Government on on Report.

We have now moved from transparency to reporting, how the Bill will be implemented and how effective it will be, hence Amendment 64 in my name and those of my noble friends Lord Ponsonby and Lady Blake. I also support Amendment 72 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Agnew and Lord Cromwell, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, which is virtually the same.

I know that the Minister’s notes will tell him that there is no need to worry about this because he can just get up and tell Coaker that it is irrelevant, that there is no need for this because the Government proved that they are a listening Government in the House of Commons and introduced Clause 187, which, as noble Lords will have seen, talks about reports on the implementation of the operation of Parts 1 to 3. Indeed, I had not realised that the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, is as radical as he is, but the clause includes some of the amendments that I and other noble Lords tabled. I refer to the Minister’s radicalness because subsection (3) of the proposed new clause inserted by Amendment 64, states:

“The first report must be published within one year of this Act being passed”.


However, if we read what the Minister has put before us, it states

“The first report must be laid within the period of 6 months beginning with the day on which this Act is passed”.


It is good to see the Government moving further than they were pushed to do. The Minister no doubt has that in his notes.

However, the serious point is that it is good see Clause 187 in the Bill because it takes on board many of the points raised in the amendments about the effectiveness of the way in which the Bill will operate. The Bill says many things that we all agree with, but the concern is whether it will be enforced and will work in the way that the Government and, indeed, all of us wish it to. Hence Amendment 64 seeks to explore what the Government mean. Clause 187 states:

“The Secretary of State … must prepare reports”,


but through my proposed new clause, which would be placed after Clause 91, I am saying to the Government what such a report should include. I do not see why we would not report on the effective implementation of the Bill.

Let us look at why I am saying in Amendment 64, with the requirement to report on the way in which the four objectives laid out in Clause 1 are actually met. We had a debate earlier on in Committee about how effective those objectives are and whether the Bill would meet them. It is particularly important that these objectives are reported on—not just in some general report that the Government lay before us but in a specific report, given the fact that, in Committee, we have debated long and hard about why on earth the registrar of companies would have as an objective “to minimise the risk” rather than prevent it. We also debated why objective 4 says “minimise the extent” rather than “prevent it happening”. Given the concerns raised in this Committee about the loose language that the Government have employed in the very first clause of the Bill to determine the objectives of the registrar, it is especially important that we have laid before Parliament a full and frank report on how effective the registrar has been in achieving the four objectives in Clause 1.

Through the reporting requirements in my amendment, I have sought to say that these are the sorts of things that the Government should include. It starts with proposed new subsection (1). It would be interesting to hear what the Government think about it. Is this what is going to be included? That is the question around each of the various points that I have set down. Are they what the Government are going to report on or not? Are they what the Government are going to include in determining the Bill’s effectiveness? Is that what the Government are going to do? I would have thought that assessing whether the objectives have been achieved was an absolutely fundamental part of this. Is that what the Government will report on: whether the objectives have been achieved?

Is further legislation needed? All sorts of regulations are included in the Bill but, again in previous debates, noble Lords referred to this Bill as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. I think that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, mentioned that; if it was not him it may have been the noble Lord, Lord Leigh of Hurley, but a noble Lord certainly said it. He is quite right—indeed it is. However, perhaps the Bill will identify gaps that the regulatory powers in this legislation could seek to avoid.

On the breakdown of annual expenditure, we are going to have a discussion when we come on to the next clause and beyond about fees, where they should go and how they should be used. That will give us an opportunity to look at annual expenditure, where the charges for fees should be amended. The Government have a regulation-making power but perhaps the report could give the Government some information about that.

Again, I go back to the steps that the registrar takes to promote the objectives. Proposed new subsection (2)(e), to be inserted by my Amendment 64, refers to

“annual data on the number of companies”.

How will we know what is going to happen? We do not want bald statements; we want factual information so that we can base any decisions that we make on evidence.

Proposed new subsection (2)(f) is particularly important. It would require each report to

“provide annual data on the number of cases referred by the registrar to law enforcement bodies and anti-money laundering supervisors”.

It is crucial that the Bill has some teeth, is seen to be implemented and is seen to operate in a way that deters those who may wish to operate in a way that undermines the vast majority of good business. Is that the sort of thing that the Government are thinking of?

A whole range of points have been raised there. These are the sorts of things that should be reported on. These are the sorts of things that the Government need to reflect on and allow Parliament to reflect on to see how effective the Bill, when it becomes an Act, is in achieving the things that we all want it to achieve. As I said, in a later clause, the Government say that they will report. This amendment probes what the Government actually mean by that and what they seek to include. It would be helpful to the Committee for us to hear a bit more about what the Government think they are going to use as a way of determining whether the Bill is successful in the way that they want. I beg to move.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, I do not want to speak for too long because the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, has covered it clearly and our amendments are very similar. Indeed, in a spirit of collaboration, I would be delighted to give ground and for my noble friend to accept amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, rather than my amendment.

There is a serious point to this. My noble friend will know that in business what gets measured gets done. Unless we are specific in the requirements of this annual report to Parliament, it will be fudged if the story is not a good one. Earlier, I read to the Committee some extracts from the internal HMRC report. It absolutely hates putting bad news out there and will use every bit of the English language to obfuscate as much as possible. Having a simple list of requirements that we expect to hear every year will reduce that—it is really that simple.

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[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response, which in some ways was helpful in trying to clarify some of the things the Government would expect to be included in any report. Amendments 64 and 72 are clearly very close; we will need to discuss with others whether we need to push the Government further on Report as to what they mean. There was, if I am honest about it, some ambivalence in the Minister’s response to the sunset clause and Clause 187(1)(a). We will have to reflect on that. There will obviously be further discussions with officials about what “and operation” means. We will have to see, on that basis, what we might or might not wish to do on Report.

However, in the interests of time, we have had a reasonable debate on this. Following discussions with others, we will see whether we need to return to it. I take the point that what gets measured gets done. I think that is what we all want to see: an effective Bill that works. We may need to see whether further clarification is needed in the Bill for it to achieve that. With those remarks, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 64 withdrawn.

Moved by

[Lord Coaker]

65: After Clause 91, insert the following new Clause—
“Fees and penalties
(1) Section 1063 (fees payable to registrar) of the Companies Act 2006 is amended in accordance with subsections (2) to (4).(2) Before subsection (1) insert—“(A1) The registrar must charge a fee of at least £100 for the incorporation of a company.(B1) The Secretary of State must once a year amend the fee in subsection (A1) to reflect inflation.”(3) In subsection (1)—(a) after “fees” insert “other than the fee in subsection (A1)”;(b) in paragraph (a), after “functions” insert “other than the incorporation of a company”.(4) In subsection (5), in paragraphs (a) and (b) after “regulations” insert “or subsection (A1)”.(5) The Secretary of State must lay before each House of Parliament a report examining the case for fees paid under section 1063 of the Companies Act 2006 being paid into a fund established for the purposes of tackling economic crime.(6) The report must also examine the case for penalties received by the registrar under section 1132A of that Act (power to make provision for financial penalties) being paid into the same fund.(7) The report must be laid before each House of Parliament within six months of this Act being passed.”

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I will be reasonably brief on Amendment 65, which is tabled in my name and those of my noble friends Lord Ponsonby and Lady Blake. Amendments 69 to 71 have some, if not many, similarities and, like Amendment 106E in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, seek to do the same thing. I shall make a few introductory remarks.

I know the Government are resisting putting an amount in the Bill and are saying that they are going to do this by regulation, but I think it is important for Parliament to make a statement about what it thinks is a reasonable fee. As I understand it, the resolution is under the negative procedure. If it is not in the Bill and the Government propose £40 or £50, it may be that we do not think that is enough, but we will not have any way of changing that or dealing with that.

The research that I have had done shows that the current fee is £12, while the eurozone average is €300, and that £12 is the sixth-lowest incorporation fee in the world, so somewhere along the line, we have got this badly wrong. I do not think that £100, as my amendment suggests, is going to deter businesses or could be seen as anti-business. It is a reasonable fee in line with that charged in many other economies in the world. There would also be the opportunity to raise the fee in line with inflation and with various other changes made to the Companies Act.

Alongside this, Amendment 70, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, Lord Cromwell and others, is about the establishment of an economic crime fund rather than reporting on the need for one and is something that we will need to reflect on from our position. However, I take the point that if there is a fee as laid out in Bill, it just goes into the Consolidated Fund to disappear without trace, whereas amendments in this group suggest not just reporting on it to see whether it is needed but establishing an economic crime fund which could then be used; in other words, it becomes a hypothecated fee. The Treasury will always say that it hates hypothecated taxes, that they go against the grain and are something that on principle it does not do. However, the Explanatory Memorandum shows examples of where the Treasury has agreed to the hypothecation of tax. A very effective argument is: as the principle of hypothecation has been accepted by the Treasury in the instances laid out in the Explanatory Memorandum, why should it not be accepted here?

I will not repeat all that has been said but the fundamental point is to create a framework within which economic crime can be investigated effectively and the law enforced effectively. That is essentially what this is all about. The Government will agree with that and say that that is their intention. The purpose of my amendment and the other amendments in this group is to give the Government the tools with which that can be achieved and the resources by which that can be done. In later amendments there is real concern about the effectiveness of the various bodies we already have to tackle economic crime; that concern will no doubt come up again on Report. This Bill will quite rightly say that more needs to be done. How is that going to be achieved? The fee suggested in my amendment and the establishment of an economic crime fund as suggested in Amendment 70 can be used to ensure that we have the resources to tackle the level of crime that we know is out there. It is something this Bill needs to address. It is a real priority. I beg to move.

[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

My Lords, to build on the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, again, this is a wonderful opportunity to do something that will put our enforcement agencies on to a much sounder footing in future. They are very underresourced. For example, we know that 40% of crime in this country is economic crime yet we deploy only about 1% of our crime-fighting resources to combat it. By ring-fencing this, it gives us a chance to solve that problem.

There is currently a scheme called the asset recovery incentivisation scheme—ARIS—where the money goes to the Treasury and the Treasury hands some of it back. However, the amounts that come back have decreased by 34% in the past five years, at a time when we are seeing escalating volumes of economic crime.

I put in my explanatory statement examples of the hypothecation that the Treasury has agreed over the past few years. As noble Lords can see, there are several of them; some of them are very recent. I want to head off the excuse from the Treasury that “We never do it”, because it does do it, and does it regularly. I suggest that this is as good an opportunity as any to do it. I very much hope that my noble friend the Minister will consider this issue carefully over the next few weeks because, if we do not have the resources in our crime-fighting agencies, we will not be able to stamp out a lot of this. Back in 1984, the US introduced a scheme in which all forfeiture proceeds go back into an assets forfeiture fund. I very much hope that we can do something similar.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I greatly appreciate my noble friend’s intervention. I hope that I have made clear to the Committee the importance that this Government place on fighting economic crime.

If I may—I am not sure of the protocol—I wish to question my noble friend’s intervention. He said that the asset recovery incentivisation scheme has seen a considerable drop in the monies deployed to law enforcement over the recent period. However, I have a figure here: since 2006-07, just under £1.3 billion—that is based on nominal values and not adjusted for inflation—has been returned to Proceeds of Crime Act agencies to fund further asset recovery capability and work that protects the public from harm. In 2021-22, £354 million was recovered under the Proceeds of Crime Act, of which £298 million was paid into the ARIS pot. So I certainly will research the figures given to me by my noble friend.

The point is that we are looking to provide funding of £400 million over the spending review in order to focus on fighting economic crime. I am happy to have further debates around this issue but I hope that I have made my point in relation to these amendments, minimum fee levels and creating a fund out of the fees, which would be completely contrary to the ambitions that we have set in our legislation around Companies House.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I have to say that there is a bit of work to be done on this group of amendments before Report. The Minister certainly failed to convince me and I am sure he failed to convince many, if not everyone, on the Committee. There is a real problem here. There is a problem with raising the fee and what it should be. The Government say that it is a matter for us and then came up with the figure of £50, which I think is inadequate. There we go; there clearly needs to be discussion about that on Report. I take the point that a number of noble Lords have made that the fee is not just to fight economic crime but for the additional responsibilities that Companies House will have. That is very clear.

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[Lord Agnew of Oulton (Con)]

I will just wrap up my amendments. I am afraid that I agree with both the noble Lords, Lord Coaker and Lord Fox, that there does not seem to be a strategy for fighting economic crime. I ask the Minister to think about this and come back to us. It could be something as simple as increasing the filing fee beyond whatever we think is the right figure by another £10. At 2 million filing fees a year, we would then have the start of a fund to fight economic crime. It could be something as simple as that, but I urge the Minister to give us something to get our teeth into. On that basis, I will not move my amendment.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 65 withdrawn.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Lord Coaker Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 27th March 2023 Grand Committee

The amendments in this group would be greatly enhanced by supporting that amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, as well as the other amendments in his name, as we go forward to the next groups.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister and his colleagues for their approach to the Bill and for his remarks at the beginning, which were very welcome. We all have an interest in trying to ensure that the Bill works, so I thank the Minister for his comments about that—and I can reciprocate with regard to how the Government have approached this in trying to enhance and improve the Bill. I appreciate what the Minister said about the amendments in this group, and all the various amendments that have been introduced, as we have heard, in a positive way, in seeking to improve the Bill.

I do not intend to speak at great length about the various amendments. I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, for his support of my Amendment 4 and by saying that I very much agree with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, said on his Amendment 63. Essentially, what we are saying here is that the Bill has a lot within it that we appreciate, accept and think are important steps forward—but alongside that, most of us want to see the Bill having some teeth and the Government explaining to us how the various details are laid out, how the measures will be enforced and how we will see the change of culture that we have just heard about.

I will speak specifically to my Amendment 4. Noble Lords will see that, in essence, we are probing what the Government’s intentions are. Clause 1 has four objectives for the registrar. The amendment in my name and those of my noble friends Lord Ponsonby and Lady Blake seeks to understand whether anything could be gained by inserting a new objective 5. No doubt the Minister will say that objective 4 means the same, which may be why the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, is not needed. We are suggesting that there needs to be a more proactive statement in the Bill about what the Government are seeking in terms of the information that the registrar collects and how it is then assessed to see whether it should be shared more widely, particularly with the various enforcement bodies.

The objective I am proposing—I will not read it all out—includes in paragraph (b)

“sharing information about any issues of concern regarding companies with relevant public bodies and law enforcement agencies.”

Why would the Government not put that in the Bill? I suspect they will say that objective 4 deals with that, but I think there is a difference between acting proactively and what the Government have in objective 4, which is

“to minimise the extent to which companies and others … carry out unlawful activities”.

I suggest that is not quite strong enough. It is not about minimising the extent; it is about wherever information comes to light with the registrar that something untoward is happening. Surely there should be an obligation on the registrar to share that with the relevant law enforcement bodies. Minimising the extent is not sufficient; we do not do that with any other law—we do not minimise the extent to which violence takes place, for example. That may be the aim, but overall the intention of the law is to stop it. So I suggest that objective 4 could be strengthened.

On Amendment 63 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Agnew, the noble Lord can and did speak for himself, but in his proposed new subsection (1B)(b) he is getting at that very point in stating that the registrar must

“share any evidence of unlawful activity it identifies with the relevant law enforcement agency”.

That is exactly the same point I am trying to address in my amendment. It is not about minimising the extent to which it takes place; it is saying that the information should always be shared. Can the Minister outline the Government’s thinking? Is their objective with the registrar that all information that may be of concern should be shared with the relevant law enforcement agencies?

Without wishing to be pedantic about this, can I ask: what is the relevant law enforcement agency with which the registrar should share the information? There is the Serious Fraud Office; there is the City of London Police; there are local police forces; there is HMRC and all sorts of other enforcement bodies. The Government will have given thought to this, but can the Minister explain to the Committee where that information should go and who is responsible for enforcing it? Is there any report back to the registrar? Once the information has been shared, is it then just a matter for the law enforcement body, or does the registrar have an obligation to see where that has got to and what has happened to it? We all know that an issue that frustrates people is not knowing what happens when things are reported and where they have got to. Alongside that, given the significant numbers that the Minister quoted of those that have to register, what are the resource implications for those other bodies in taking that up?

My final point may seem a bit obscure. I am not a great expert on this, but I know from one limited case that I had some experience of that one of the problems was a lack of forensic accountants and the ability to understand what was going on within various company accounts. I was told it was a skill area that is never really talked about. I wonder whether the Government, given their intentions, have given any thought to how they ensure that the necessary skill base is there within police forces and the Serious Fraud Office for crimes that are referred to them to be properly understood and investigated. I am sure that some people are experts in company law and all this, but the problem is that when people say “Follow the money”, sometimes it is pretty difficult to do that. I wonder whether the Minister might say something about how he sees that.

In general, we welcome the Bill and the government amendments before us. I think the amendments that the noble Lords, Lord Leigh and Lord Agnew, have tabled make some very important points. I hope that my Amendment 4 also helps the Government explain to the Committee what their intentions are. If the Bill is to mean anything, it has to be properly enforced.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

I had not intended to speak on this group, but my noble friend Lord Coaker has drawn my attention to the active verbs in the subsections of Clause 1. I am at a loss to understand why they are used. Why is objective 3

“to minimise the risk of records kept by the registrar creating a false or misleading impression to members of the public”

and not “to prevent companies and others carrying out unlawful activities or facilitating the carrying out of unlawful activities”? It seems odd that the objective is not the complete protection of people who may be duped or defrauded or have their money stolen from them by the devices created here. I appreciate that one cannot guarantee perfection, but it seems to me that by legislating in this fashion we recognise that there will be an element of that, since the objective we set the registrar is only to minimise, not to prevent it altogether.

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[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that comment, and I entirely agree that it would be extremely useful to have such a letter from the registrar. I take very seriously the comments about a cultural change at Companies House. We should be aware of where we are coming from. Not to repeat or labour the point, but Companies House is today simply a repository for information; it could practically be a static website. Having said that, in the conversations that I have had with Companies House, I have been very impressed by the tone of the officials I have spoken to there in terms of their determination to crack down on criminal activity around companies and Companies House. They currently make referrals to law enforcement agencies; they are not blind to the issues that present themselves, but they do not have the powers to do what we want them to do.

This Bill gives the registrar and her agents the concomitant powers to execute exactly on this mission that we wish. They talk boldly of a cultural change in Companies House, which we expect, as well as a technological change and a significant resource improvement—and under other amendments we will discuss the resourcing of Companies House. I feel confident that we are going to see a magnitudinous alteration in the relationship between the number of companies and number of directors performing their functions appropriately and providing relevant information to boost the economy, as soon as, or soon after, this Act is enabled—if I have got my terminology right.

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I would be grateful for a clarification. Can the Minister say something about the language being used? My noble friend Lord Browne also picked up on this point. It is not that it is wrong, but why in Clause 1 do objectives 3 and 4, for example, talk about minimising risks or the extent? What I suggest in my amendment is acting proactively to prevent. It is about that sense of purpose and that cultural change, whereby the registrar actively seeks out unlawful activity and actively seeks to inform law enforcement to do something about it. It is not a clash of view but, in talking about cultural change, would not a language change help the Government in delivering what they want?

[Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I do not want noble Lords at any point to think that I am being defensive in any way, as we are having a collaborative debate around the objectives of trying to improve company law and registration of companies and the integrity of the information stored at Companies House.

Objective 1 is pretty clear in referring to

“any person who is required to deliver a document to the registrar does so”,

and objective 2 is very clear and specific in saying

“to ensure that documents delivered to the registrar are complete and contain accurate information”.

They are unambiguous points—that is very clear. There is no question about there being some grey area around that. But with regard to objective 3 and

“creating a false or misleading impression to members of the public”,

clearly that is relatively subjective statement. It is clear that we have made efforts in this Bill to ensure that company names, for example, cannot be used to be misleading, and additional powers have been placed with the Secretary of State to ensure that companies have to change their names—but there is an element of subjectivity around a company name. To some extent, it is not totally prescriptive. Objective 4 then says,

“to minimise the extent to which companies and others … carry out unlawful activities, or … facilitate the carrying out by others of unlawful activities”.

These are complicated areas, in which, as the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, said, issues around forensic accounting, and so on, have been raised. Nothing is necessarily as straightforward as it seems. The principle here is to try to reduce the crime clearly to zero—so if the registrar reduced levels of criminal activity to a certain percentage, which they felt were somehow in a target range and then stopped their work, we would consider that to be entirely inappropriate. At the same time, they have a very clear objective, which is to minimise financial misconduct and criminality. That flexibility enables the registrar to perform her functions appropriately.