Mental Capacity (Amendment) Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Alex Cunningham and James Morris

Tuesday 22nd January 2019 Public Bill Committees

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair again, Mr Austin.

As I reflect on what my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak was saying, I recollect that we were getting stories some years ago about people—possibly like that young person—who were suffering the fate that could have befallen her. In some cases, their only crime—the only thing they had ever done wrong—was to get pregnant; they were locked away in what, in those days, were called “mental institutions” because they got pregnant. We heard story after story, not so many years ago, of people coming out of those places having lived 30 or 40 years there, when there had been no mental capacity issues or anything like that at all—just something way back in their past. If people in that situation had had an advocate, we might never have had that situation or heard those stories of people being deprived of their liberty, particularly unlawfully, for decades.

To illustrate the case for this amendment—if my hon. Friend’s story does not do so—I want to use real-life examples provided by the advocacy provider POhWER, to which I am grateful. Imagine someone is in a care home; their same-sex partner of more than 30 years has passed away, but the care home staff have denied them the right to look at photographs of their partner, because the relationship they enjoyed over all those years went against God’s will. The staff are depriving that person of their liberty, unauthorised. The person is experiencing homophobia, and they are distressed, as they are not allowed to look at photographs of the person they spent their life loving. In time, however, they get an advocate; their distress is clear to the advocate, yet they smile and laugh when, at last, they are handed a photograph of their late partner. Situations such as that have happened, and are still happening.

Another case in the same care home centred on a cared-for person being prevented from attending the local mosque, because the care home manager, for some bizarre reason, felt the weekly visit from a Christian priest was sufficient to meet everyone’s religious needs. Having seen them operate in hospitals and all manner of places, I know that good priests, rabbis, imams or other religious leaders visiting care homes or hospitals do not discriminate; they will speak to anyone and spend time with them. They do that because their faith is driven by compassion and care, and they have a genuine desire to minister to people regardless of their faith, or even if they do not have a faith at all. However, that is no reason for a person to be denied the right to attend the building that serves them in their faith, but that, too, happened in this care home.

A one-size-fits-all arrangement across the wide range of services provided in a care home is not sufficient, and it certainly does not work with faith and sexuality. The people in those examples were helped in their respective plights, thanks to an advocate—someone who could help to put matters right, who ensured those people had what they needed and who, perhaps more importantly, had the capacity, skills and knowledge to point out the rights of the person in care and to make the point that the actions I described are discriminatory and could be unlawful.

Last week, the Minister rightly spoke in praise of care home managers, and I have made it clear that I believe the vast majority do a good job and are genuine carers. But they too are ingrained; they are stuck in the day-to-day running of their care home, and we cannot expect them to function as an assessor, an advocate or anybody independent whom a cared-for person needs. Even if they did have that responsibility, that would have failed to protect the two people in the two examples I gave.

The default position in the Bill should be that every person gets an advocate unless they actively refuse one after they have been given one. As I and others said earlier, it should be an opt-out rather than an opt-in—my hon. Friends have covered that in some detail. It is much better for a person to decide that they do not want an advocate than for them to be unfairly treated because they did not have anybody to speak up for them.

I agree with Mencap, which argued:

“The new scheme must ensure the right of the person to object to and challenge arrangements if they wish, and have the support and representation to do so”.

If the person in the case I spoke about at the start of this speech had had the support and representation to challenge arrangements, she may not have been so distressed because she was denied access to photographs of her partner. She may have had a better emotional quality of life and, leading from that, probably a healthier physical life as well. Instead, she was let down by care home staff, and her rights to express her sexuality were denied. She was denied her liberty.

Age UK has also backed this amendment, saying:

“Support from Independent Mental Capacity Advocates should not depend on a person’s ‘best interests’ as it is currently drafted in the Bill. Instead everyone should be able to access an advocate and a person who chooses not be represented can then opt out.”

[James Morris]

Obviously, everyone would agree that having advocates is a good idea, but I want to press the hon. Gentleman on the point about the circumstances where there might be a need for a best interest test before an advocate is appointed. Does he accept that the number may be limited, but there may be circumstances in which the particular condition of an individual—the nature of their condition—might mean that their having an advocate might not be appropriate?

[Alex Cunningham]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. Unfortunately, we have to cover everybody with an amendment such as this, otherwise we end up with exclusions left, right and centre. We cannot afford to have exclusions. If an advocate is in place, there is no additional problem associated with that. At least the person has some chance of representation.

Mental Capacity (Amendment) Bill [ Lords ] (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Alex Cunningham and James Morris

Tuesday 22nd January 2019 Public Bill Committees

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Pritchard.

On amendment 52, a great deal of concern was expressed in the written evidence submitted to the Committee about how the Bill interacts with the Mental Health Act 1983. In fact, that the Government have not thought that through enough was one of the many reasons why it was felt that they should not be rushing to push the Bill through. They have not made any statements even to claim that everything will be fine. Due to the overlapping nature of the two pieces of legislation, we must take additional precautions to ensure that they work together. To do that, we must know what the Government’s response to the independent review is prior to the provisions coming into force.

It is regrettable that neither this Committee nor the Committee in the Lords took any oral evidence. It is all the more important therefore to get some of the written evidence before the Committee so that everyone is aware of what organisations have been saying. Such organisations as Mencap have added their voices to the concern about the complex interface between the Mental Health Act and the Mental Capacity Act. I will quote from what Mencap said at some length not only because it is worth listening to, but because it is right. It said:

“Sir Simon’s review proposes to redraw the dividing line between when a person should be detained under the MHA and when they might instead fall under the MCA…The proposed dividing line is objection, so that if a person without capacity does not object to admission or treatment they should be placed under the MCA…The proposed new dividing line of objection needs thorough and broad consultation, possible pilot testing, and pre-legislative scrutiny—none of which are possible under the timescales set by Government for this Bill…Given that Sir Simon Wessely’s review has only just been published, there is a strong case for looking at the interplay between this Bill and the recommendations around the MHA. To not do so, risks creating legislation which fits together poorly.”

Does the Minister disagree with Mencap’s assessment and concerns about the interface between the two Acts? Does she accept that much needs to be done before the Bill’s provisions are brought to bear on our vulnerable people?

[James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con)]

I have a lot of sympathy with the hon. Gentleman, but will he recognise that one of the central drivers for the Bill is the delay in assessments that has built up over time because of the issue identified in Chester? Obviously there is a timing issue, but does he agree that, ultimately, whatever legislation comes out of the independent review will mark a major change in how we approach the detention of people under the Mental Health Act? There probably will need to be more synergy between the two pieces of legislation, but the timing imperative is driving the need to get this legislation on the statute book.