Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions on Gatherings) (North of England) Regulations 2020 Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions on Gatherings) (North of England) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions on Gatherings) (North of England) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020 Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (North of England) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (North of England) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Alex Norris Excerpts

Monday 21st September 2020 General Committees

[Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mr Hollobone. I thank the Minister for her remarks and explanations of what the Government are seeking to do, as well as for her efforts over the past six months. It has been an awful lot of work for Ministers, and we are grateful; when we disagree, I hope that we disagree firmly but well.

It is a funny time to be in opposition. The clue is in the name: we oppose very many, if not most, of the things in the Government’s legislative agenda. We have significant concerns about some or all of them, so we seek to amend, we scrutinise, and in that way we hope to improve our parliamentary democracy. On any issue, it is very easy to engage in the narcissism of small differences, but in a pandemic that will not do. If the Government say, “There is a rule of six,” we could very easily say, “It should be a rule of five, or a rule of seven.” We could play that game all day—indeed, I was on the radio on Thursday, and people were saying just that. “You are too co-operative. The Opposition are too supportive of the restrictions being put on our freedoms.”

Similarly—obviously, this gained much more coverage—on Sunday morning, my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the Opposition reiterated that we support the Government on the restrictions being put in place. We think it is obvious that if the infection rate increases, restrictions have to increase as well, but there were some extraordinary comments on Twitter—this was just from our own side—about how easily we were rolling over. I should probably never look at the comments, but sometimes I cannot help it.

The point I am building up to, however, is that the well of good will is not unlimited, because there is a real problem. Hon. Members will have read their papers, and will know that what we are discussing now is long after the fact. I do not think we would be popping anybody’s bubble or revealing what is behind the curtain, if I can mix my metaphors, to say that today is a bit of a fool’s errand. We are meeting weeks and weeks after these regulations were not only put in place, but changed. The first one we are discussing has since been amended on essentially four different occasions. There has to be a sense of reality about what we are doing, but hopefully also a recognition that, fundamentally, as an operation, this will not do. Are these very significant changes to happen on a very regular basis, only to be scrutinised in Parliament seven weeks later? I do not think so. It is not good for us as an Opposition, and it is also not good for the Government or for Government Back Benchers.

Of course, these regulations came into effect on 5 August. At that point, people living in the 15 local authority areas specified, as well as Blackburn—which was already under alternative restrictions—could no longer meet in groups of two or more households in a private dwelling, or in groups of more than 30 people outdoors. A variety of other conditions and exceptions was also in place. I recall this well: I was up in Manchester myself when it was announced, visiting my sister and her newborn baby, and I needed to beat a hasty retreat lest I had to stay there. I do not think my constituents would have been too impressed by that.

Again, we broadly support these measures and the intention behind them, because we all want to halt the spread of the virus, and we know that keeping people safe must be the No. 1 priority. However, we as an Opposition have to put on the record our concerns that it has taken seven weeks for us to get here. I talked to the Minister before we started, and I am sure that her colleagues have had a series of different versions of these delegated legislation Committees over the past few weeks.

Normally, we would put up my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), but we are giving him a bit of a rest. I think that is why they have sent me out to bat: some fresh legs with half an hour to go, to run around and put a few tackles in, which has never been something I have worried about doing.

This point needs to be reiterated. We are rightly talking about having control of this virus, but there is concern across the House and definitely among the population that we do not now have control of the virus, and are certainly losing it. A big part of that control has to be our understanding and scrutiny of the regulations, their quality, and their effectiveness.

Of course, we need to act efficiently. We would never support a situation where important and effective regulation that was needed could not be introduced in a timely manner, because we had not yet got to Committee Room 10 to deal with it. We know the pattern on which the regulations will be popping up—a statement from the Health Secretary has just finished and there will be one from the Prime Minister tomorrow—and I do not think it is beyond the realms of possibility that new regulations are coming. However, while we are talking about regulations from seven weeks ago, when will we reach the new ones? Will it take seven weeks? I do not think that that will be in our interest or anyone else’s. I hope that the Minister will address that point.

I know that the subject has been raised many times by Members on both sides of the House, and in the other place. We cannot be here just to rubber stamp what the Government propose. That stretches things too far. I believe that we are taking responsible paths, although I say that with the caveat that I state whenever I do any media work. When I open my emails, half of them say that I have been too hard on the Government and am not supporting the national effort; the other half say that the Opposition are too acquiescent. Who knows? Nevertheless, I do not think that anyone would think arriving late and rubber stamping a measure is in our interest or is what our constituents need from us.

Mr Speaker gets upset, as do we, that often we hear of important policy changes on a Friday or Sunday night, long before Parliament has the opportunity to hear them. Sometimes I talk about that to my friends who are non-political and they say, “Well, you know, you can’t be that person who’s worried about being told first.” I remember Gareth from “The Office”, who would always insist on having the news whispered in his ear just before the big team meeting so that he knew it first. That is not the point or what we are saying. We are saying that we have a parliamentary democracy for a reason. It is a very effective one and has been this way for a long time. We all treasure and love it. We must be among its greatest enthusiasts because we choose to come here every day. We cannot lose that, even in the most important circumstances. That is when it becomes all the more important.

However, we have had regulations coming into force only a quarter of an hour after they are available to read. Including the five before the Committee, there are 17 measures being debated this week, all of which are already in force. Other regulations have come into force before being revoked and never seen. There seems to be no opportunity during this period of time to debate them, and that will not work. We are hoping for some clarity and commitment from the Minister, and an assurance that the Government are actively seeking to get upstream of this blizzard of regulations.

I would hate to take the job of Whip, held by my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington—I really would not want it—but I am sure the Opposition would be constructive about shifting the backlog if it meant that we could deal with regulations in something closer to real time. That would be better for everyone. However, this is not just about Parliament; it is a question of the cue we send out to the public. If they feel that the process is rushed or bypassed, there is a danger of undermining Parliament’s credibility.

People in the north are reasonable and intelligent—I am one of them. They are not daft and they know when things are being cooked up on the fly. I have heard that from friends and family. If they feel that measures are arbitrary, and that they have been made on the hoof, that undermines their confidence in whether they should stick to them or whether to say, “Just pop round, and no one will ever really know.” We know that in fighting the virus that will not do.

It is hard, as I mentioned a couple of minutes ago, not to reflect that we have just had a statement from the Health Secretary and there will be one from the Prime Minister tomorrow, and there was a chief advisers’ press conference this morning. We would never say no to hearing more information and certainly not to having more opportunities to talk about it, but it is hard to explain to a lay person what process of swift, clear and effective decision-making those things reflect.

Compliance is key to our success in getting out from under the virus and making the measures work. That is why we need to scrutinise them and have our say on them. As I have said, we do not propose to divide the Committee, but that does not mean we do not want greater understanding of some of the Government’s ideas. Certainly, as we get into discussion of curfews or hospitality closing times, we want to understand precisely the science behind such things.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. My colleague is making an important point. I hope Members will forgive me for repeating something that has come up at many similar Committee sittings. We represent communities to whom we are answerable, who want to know what is going on—why such measures are being passed, and why the policies are being imposed on communities. It is very difficult to explain what is happening when we have not had scrutiny or access to Ministers. Explanations should be upstream of any regulations being made, as my hon. Friend said. Back Benchers across the House are crying out for that. There should be a strategy that explains why the measures might be required in future. Strategic thinking needs to take place in advance, in anticipation of the circumstances. Does my hon. Friend agree?

[Alex Norris]

Yes, I do. Again, that is necessary for public confidence. We have supported the Government throughout. As infection rates decrease, we can open up more things and do more things. As infection rates rise, there will be greater restrictions. It would be better to understand what greater restrictions mean earlier in the process. Instead, it feels as though we are always running to catch up.

I am in danger of being much more negative than I usually am, but I have the chance to extol some virtues and talk about the benefits that we have today. We at least have hindsight at our disposal. We do not often get reviews of legislation this quickly after it has come into force, but today we have that. On 5 August, the seven-day case average in the north-west region, which is a good cipher for the area we are talking about, was just under 250. On 2 September, with the most recent of the four amendments, the seven-day case average was 486, and last week the rolling day average peaked at 1,200 on Wednesday.

It is therefore clear that although the regulations might have been effective, they are not entirely sufficient. That makes the case for greater restrictions. People need to understand that, even though it is frustrating. Certainly in the communities where freedoms have been curtailed, no doubt willingly, to beat the virus and protect each other, they need to understand the picture, what has happened subsequently and why we need to go further. We have a duty as an Opposition to point out that that was undermined by slowness in the early stages regarding personal protective equipment; lockdown itself; social care and more; the lack of scrutiny, as I mentioned; and particularly now, as we reflect on this here in Parliament, the shambles that is test and trace.

Short of a wonder vaccine, which will be gladly received when it comes, test and trace is our most critical weapon to get out from underneath this, but at the moment it is not happening. It is not working in a timely manner to properly find those who have coronavirus and to isolate them. That is why we are seeing the virus spread. Will the Minister update us on the progress towards getting a system that meets what the Prime Minister said in June about a 24-hour turnaround in response, because that is what it will take?

Can we hear a little more about what was briefed over the weekend? I am a man of the world—I understand that things get briefed to the Sunday newspapers. Since the beginning of the pandemic, we have been calling for a recognition that if those who are being asking to self-isolate are offered only statutory sick pay that pushes them into poverty, that will be an incentive not to comply with the regulations. That is not a good thing, but it is entirely human. The £500 figure was briefed over the weekend. Will the Minister tell us more about that?

I have three final points. We have not had much of a debate on the merits of these specific restrictions because the horse is three fields down by now, but it would be interesting to hear the Minister’s view on where we are currently and where she feels we will be next week, in a month’s time and in three months’ time. We want a sense of what the journey is, even if that journey means things are getting more challenging. Okay, that will mean greater restrictions, but what sorts of restrictions and when? It would be good for Parliament and for everybody to know that.

I am sure this is close to your heart, Mr Hollobone, as someone with a long history in local government, but will the Minister tell us a little more about local authority engagement? She said in her contribution that that has always been good. That is not always the picture that we get from local councils in respect of whether conversations have happened and whether the announcement reflects them. Can we hear what process is being used to engage with council leaders?

Finally, regulation 4 of the first set of regulations requires a review at least once every 14 days, so there must have been three since they came into effect. I wonder why the results of the reviews have not been made public, and whether they could be more routinely in future. That would give us something better to debate when evaluating their effectiveness.

I will draw to a conclusion there; I have made my point on timeliness and I hope the Minister can address it.