National Cancer Plan

Debate between Andrew Gwynne and Jim Dickson

Tuesday 4th February 2025 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Gwynne]

I congratulate the hon. Lady’s step-mum on ringing that bell, which is great news. The hon. Lady is absolutely right to raise the issue of inconsistency when it comes to the levels of service that different patients get. That will obviously be a major factor in the national cancer plan going forward, to ensure that all people diagnosed with cancer have the same levels of treatment and the same opportunities to survive.

[Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)]

I warmly welcome the Minister’s statement. He will know as well as anybody else in this Chamber that smoking causes one in four cancers in this country, and that two out of three people who smoke will die as a result. He is assiduously moving the Tobacco and Vapes Bill through Parliament. Can he set out the likely effect that the Bill will have on those shocking statistics?

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for being a member of the Committee for that Bill, which ended its business last Thursday. The hon. Members for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Dr Johnson), and for Farnham and Bordon (Gregory Stafford), who are sitting on the Opposition Front Bench, were also members of that Committee. My hon. Friend is absolutely right, because the Bill will stop the conveyor belt that the tobacco industry has used to its advantage for decades. We are saying that we will not allow any more children and young people to become addicted to nicotine and tobacco, which, as he says, kills two out of every three users. It is uniquely the most harmful product, and we are making the next generation smoke-free for a reason.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixteenth sitting)

Debate between Andrew Gwynne and Jim Dickson

Committee stage
Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)]

There is one last person the Committee should thank, and that is the Minister himself. I am sure we will get a chance to say this again on Third Reading, when we will no doubt debate these things again, but I have to say that the passion, good humour, knowledge and commitment with which he has taken this legislation through Committee is something for which we should all be grateful. Thank you, Minister.

[Andrew Gwynne]

rose—

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fifteenth sitting)

Debate between Andrew Gwynne and Jim Dickson

Committee stage
Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jim Dickson]

I am quickly coming to the point of my intervention; I reserve the right to say something else later. The Minister has outlined the fact that the health benefits of filters are non-existent, but is he also aware that, according to Keep Britain Tidy, cigarette butts make up 66% of all littered items and cost UK local authorities around £40 million per year to clean up? Would he consider that relevant to this new clause?

[Andrew Gwynne]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Litter is something that this Government take seriously. Tobacco litter remains a concern for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, with cigarette filters consistently scoring as the most littered item in surveys. Local authorities already have the powers to punish those who litter through prosecution. They can also create smoke-free areas through the use of public space protection orders.

Nevertheless, my colleagues in DEFRA believe that the best way to tackle littering of filters is through a reduction in smoking rates. We therefore continue to support all initiatives designed to encourage people to quit smoking. This Bill aims to reduce smoking prevalence in the UK. Our published modelling, which I have referred to, shows that smoking rates in England among 30-year-olds and under could be close to zero as early as 2050, which is likely to reduce overall litter levels, as there will be fewer tobacco and tobacco-related products sold and disposed of each year.

We need to be very wary of unintended consequences. I know for certain that my hon. Friend, like me, does not want to give tobacco manufacturers the opportunity to greenwash and to say that they have created a product that is not only healthier for people because it has a filter—we know that that is utter nonsense, but it is the lie they have peddled to date—but better for the environment. We will not allow the tobacco industry to improve its reputation by making itself appear to be environmentally aware and taking action.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Dickson]

Without necessarily endorsing the ban that the new clause would lead to, is the Minister prepared to think about supporting a move to other parts of Government, and perhaps about even moving to ban cigarette filters, as part of the consultation that his Department is about to undertake? That would generate momentum for what he rightly says would be a positive move for the environment and for health.

[Andrew Gwynne]

We are very clear about the measures in the Bill that we will consult on, but I reassure my hon. Friend that I am in regular contact with Ministers across Government about a whole range of issues, not least because the health mission board has decided that I have a lead role in bilateral discussions on the health mission. I will certainly continue to raise the issue of cigarette end litter with colleagues in DEFRA, and to see whether we can get DEFRA to use some of the powers at its disposal in order to meet the aims and ambitions of my hon. Friend, but it need not be included in this Bill specifically, because it is a DEFRA-led policy.

The shadow Minister and the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire asked why cigarette filters were not covered in earlier clauses. In the Bill, we have taken a power to update the legislation to include tobacco devices and accessories that enable a tobacco product to be consumed, such as a pipe. It would not cover filters, as they do not enable a product to be consumed. That is the legalistic reason that cigarette filters are not in scope of the Bill, as we debated way back when. I ask my hon. Friend to withdraw the new clause.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne]

That is way above my pay grade. It is a matter for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and I have already assured my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford that I will speak to ministerial colleagues in DEFRA. We are very sympathetic to the aim of the new clause, but we do not support the Bill being the mechanism to achieve it.

[Jim Dickson]

I thank once more the shadow Minister for moving my new clause in my absence. If I were moving it, I would be content, given the Minister’s assurances to pursue this matter, to withdraw it. I know that there are others on both sides of the Committee who will work with me to make the right representations to DEFRA to see the point of the new clause carried forward in another part of Government. Were I moving my own new clause, I would be happy to withdraw it at this point.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Thirteenth sitting)

Debate between Andrew Gwynne and Jim Dickson

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Gwynne]

I am very happy to answer the question posed by the shadow Minister. It is a simple answer: we need clause 133 to avoid loopholes. Otherwise, newer products such as heated tobacco—and those products that have not even been developed yet—are in scope of the restrictions, but devices used alongside them could still be used to promote tobacco consumption.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 133 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 134 and 135 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 136

Addition of smoke-free places in England

[Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)]

I beg to move amendmentusb 11, in clause 136, page 77, line 8, after “regulations” insert

“and a local authority may (as respects its area) make byelaws”.

This amendment would extend the power to designate areas as smoke-free to certain local authorities, by making byelaws. Any byelaws so made would need to be confirmed by the Secretary of State by virtue of section 236 of the Local Government Act 1972.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Gwynne]

Obviously, if a local authority introduces byelaws, as the City of Manchester has done in respect of pavement licensing, it is for that local authority to ensure that those byelaws are adhered to. Of course, in that case, the weights and measures authority is the City of Manchester, so I suppose that makes it easier.

These powers are already being used. Local authorities are already designating areas, whether it is for pavement licences, public space protection orders or just deeming that land within their own responsibility is smoke-free. We do not believe that the amendments are necessary. I kindly ask my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford to withdraw them.

[Jim Dickson]

The Minister has given a very comprehensive response. I suspect that the suggestion that this might be a way forward might come up in the consultation when that happens in the coming months. For the moment, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourteenth sitting)

Debate between Andrew Gwynne and Jim Dickson

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford for putting this amendment before the Committee for discussion. The amendment would require the Government, within six months of this Bill gaining Royal Assent, to introduce regulations to prohibit smoking in all enclosed vehicles, other than certain vessels.

I have a lot of sympathy with the arguments my hon. Friend has put to the Committee on the harms of passive second-hand smoking, and I am certainly sympathetic to amendment’s aim of further reducing exposure to second-hand smoke. However, as I am sure the Committee is aware, smoking has been banned in enclosed vehicles used as a workplace or a public place since 2007, and it has also been banned where someone under 18 is present since 2015. We think that this level of protection is appropriate and provides the correct balance between protecting children and vulnerable people from the harms of passive smoking, while not unduly impacting current smokers by interfering with private spaces. That is an important point, because both I and the Secretary of State have been very clear from the outset that we are not seeking to extend measures in this Bill into private spaces.

I remind the Committee that, in the smoke-free generation that we hope and expect the Bill to create, smoking will become a thing of the past. Therefore, hopefully in the not-too-distant future, we will not see anyone smoking in a vehicle because smoking will just not be as prevalent in the UK as it is today. Most people are law-abiding citizens, and we would expect the measures in this Bill, and indeed the in my hon. Friend’s amendment, to be something that most people consider anyway. If they are in an enclosed space such as a vehicle with a friend who has vulnerabilities, most people would probably not light up because they would recognise the harm that they may do to their friend.

Furthermore, the measures in the amendment would be for the police to enforce. We have had no prior conversations with Home Office colleagues about whether this is a power they seek or whether the police would be concerned about its enforceability. That would need further consideration if we were to proceed with this. Having said that, we just do not think that there is a strong argument for interfering in private spaces by extending this prohibition to smoking in all vehicles within six months of the Bill reaching Royal Assent. That is not a large amount of time anyway for such a major change. It is for those reasons that I ask my hon. Friend to withdraw the amendment.

[Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)]

Once again, the Minister has made convincing arguments for why now may not be the right time for this amendment to become legislation and be adopted. However, I think that within the next decade or so this measure is likely to become law one way or another, so for the moment I am content not to press it. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Andrew Gwynne and Jim Dickson

Committee stage
Thursday 16th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Andrew Gwynne)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger. May I start by not only thanking the shadow Minister for her support, but congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford on his birthday? [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] It is a real pleasure that we are able to provide him with a full day’s entertainment—better than Netflix.

[Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister very much for his birthday felicitations. There is nowhere I would rather be than here.

[The Chair]

I only hope that is not open to challenge.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Andrew Gwynne and Jim Dickson

Committee stage
Thursday 9th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Andrew Gwynne]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Anyone who heard the evidence on Tuesday cannot but have been shocked at what medical professionals see with their own eyes—not just the procedures they have to use, such as amputations, but the people who are so addicted to that product that they have to light up, even having lost both legs. That was a powerful contribution, and he is right to labour the point that there is no freedom in addiction. We are seeking to free the next generation from ever being in the situation that, as he reminds us, was outlined in detail by professionals in the evidence session.

That leads me to the amendments. Simply raising the age of sale to 25 will only raise the age at which people start smoking; it will not meet this Government’s, or indeed the previous Government’s, ambition to make the United Kingdom smoke-free. We also know—and we heard this from the four chief medical officers of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, in unison—that whenever there has been a change in tobacco control legislation, the tobacco industry is clever; it is smart; it sees that one road has been blocked, so it finds another. The industry has been swift to refocus its tactics. For example, when flavoured cigarettes, including menthol, were banned in the UK, the industry used product innovation to exploit loopholes in the ban. It created new products, such as menthol filter tips and cigarette-like menthol cigarillos.

Those examples demonstrate how the tobacco industry will always regroup and refocus its efforts to respond to whatever regulations are in place. If we raised the age of sale to 25, the industry would likely change its business model to target older age groups.

Let us be clear here about what we are seeking to do. We are not criminalising current smokers; people who are legally able to purchase tobacco products and consume them will always be able to do that. However, we are having a cut-off point. We are saying to the tobacco industry, “This is your customer base now. That’s it. Game over. What you have got is all you have got. You can’t kill two thirds of your customer base and expect other people to come along the conveyor belt. We’re stopping the conveyor belt. What you have got is it.” We will do all we can to make that customer base even smaller through smoking cessation services and effective targeting of existing smokers to help them to quit. But this is it—this is the customer base, and it will shrink rapidly over the next few years, so that no child born after 1 January 2009 can ever legally be sold tobacco products.

That means that the examples we have heard from Members in this debate about a 45-year-old being asked to show ID are an irrelevance. They miss the point. The impact assessment that accompanies the Bill says really clearly that in 25 years’ time—in 2050, which is not that far away—we expect smoking prevalence among people aged 30 and below to be near zero. The logical consequence of that is that there will be very few people of middle adult age going into shops to purchase tobacco. The reality is that there probably will not be a market for tobacco products by then. Retailers will have diversified into selling something else, because there will not be a market of sufficient scale for tobacco to be sold.

All the arguments that we have heard—they have actually been pursued by the tobacco industry—as to why these things are not workable are for the birds. They are for the clouds. They are for another world that does not exist, because the measures in the Bill will ensure that we are smoke-free, and I find that really exciting.

[Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)]

The Minister is making an extremely eloquent case. He referred to the impact assessment for the Bill. I wonder whether he has spotted that on page 61, the likely societal benefits of having a smoke-free generation are estimated at something like £73 billion by the end of the century. I wonder whether he believes, as I do, that the amendment that we are considering puts that societal benefit hugely at risk.

[Andrew Gwynne]

It does, for the reasons that I have set out. I thank my hon. Friend for pointing to the impact assessment, because it sets out a very clear reversal of the current situation, in which the costs of tobacco to society, the individual, the economy and our health and care services are massive. In the future, that situation will be reversed—it will become a positive, not a negative—because people will be healthier and living longer. They will not be living with the comorbidities that are a direct consequence of tobacco use. They will be free from addiction. They will actively participate in the economy. That is why we are moving to smoke-free, rather than just shifting the age of sale to a fixed point and continuing to give tobacco companies that conveyor belt. If we did so, people would eventually reach 25 and the tobacco companies would be able to target them again—maybe not in as great a number, but we would have switched the conveyor belt back on.

I want that conveyor belt stopped for the next generation. That is what the last Bill did, to be fair, and it is what this one does. It is about protecting future generations from becoming addicted to nicotine and carrying the horrible burden of disease that is a direct consequence of all tobacco products. Breaking the cycle of addiction and disadvantage and allowing people to live healthier lives—that is true freedom. Let us be clear: there is no freedom in addiction. There is freedom in never being able to be sold tobacco and having a genuinely smoke-free UK. For that reason, I ask the shadow Minister not to press these Liberal Democrat amendments.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Andrew Gwynne and Jim Dickson

Tuesday 15th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Gwynne]

I absolutely do, and I pay tribute to Abbi, a beautiful woman whom I was privileged to meet after the Westminster Hall debate last week. Although care after sepsis will vary hugely on a case-by-case basis, we need to make sure that the needs of each individual are met. In this case, it sounds like they have not been met. If the hon. Gentleman wants to meet me to discuss this issue further, I am more than happy to do so.

[Jim Dickson (Dartford) (Lab)]

Given that last month was Sepsis Awareness Month, will the Minister join me in paying tribute to the courage of John Snow and his family in my Dartford constituency? Tragically, he has just experienced a quadruple amputation due to sepsis. He has received amazing support from the Dartford community, who have rallied around to help fund support for his family. Will the Minister use that as a spur to improve treatment for sepsis more generally across the country?

[Andrew Gwynne]

I pay tribute to John Snow and, indeed, my hon. Friend’s constituents, who have rallied around him at his time of need. This matter highlights the need to have better joined-up care to ensure that people who have sepsis receive the best care possible, that those who tragically lose limbs as a consequence of sepsis are able to have good-quality aftercare, and that we continue to raise awareness of sepsis and the risks it poses.