Middle East and North Africa

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Thursday 17th July 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Davies. I refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests about a visit to Israel and the Palestinian territories.

I thank the right hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) for securing this important, timely debate. In his contribution he displayed both his expertise on the whole area and his sensitivity to the involvement and suffering of so many different parties in that region. I want to focus my comments on the Israeli-Palestinian issue and, in particular, the horrifying events under way in Gaza, but what happens in Israel and the Palestinian territories is of course much affected by what happens in a turbulent neighbourhood. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the hundreds of thousands of people killed in Syria and the millions of people there who have been displaced. That ongoing issue is causing widespread concern.

I start by saying that all civilian deaths are tragic. A civilian death on any side of a dispute is equal to that on the other. It is all tragic and it should all be avoided. It is a great cause for concern that John Kerry’s initiative has, up to now, not succeeded. The overall situation will only be resolved by a negotiated agreement on setting up a Palestinian state alongside a secure Israel. That means agreement on borders based on the 1967 boundaries, on how to share Jerusalem and on dealing with refugee issues on both sides. As long as that is not secured, there will be disputes.

The current situation in Gaza is intolerable. The Israelis withdrew all their 8,000 settlers and soldiers in 2005. Some were withdrawn forcibly by the Israeli army. There followed a short time when Israel and the Palestinian Authority had an agreement. For the very first time, Gaza was ruled by Palestinians, but that was short-lived. Hamas came to power, and it has to be recognised for what it is: a terrorist organisation. It is recognised to be so by, among others, the USA, Jordan, the European Union and Japan. Its 1988 charter—in other words, a recent, modern charter—contains elements that are blood-curdling. It talks about Jews running the worldwide media and Jews being responsible for such things as the French revolution and the Russian revolution. Hamas is a terrorist organisation that will not accept the existence of Israel. It is not interested in boundaries. It finds the concept of the majority Jewish state of Israel as anathema in that region, and that has to be remembered.

What is happening now is that Hamas decided to launch an attack, targeted on Israeli civilians. At the last count, although it may well be an underestimate, some 1,350 rockets have been launched, targeted on 70% of Israeli civilians.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

The hon. Lady is making an excellent speech. Will she confirm the size and scale of the rockets? Some who seek to defend the action from Gaza refer to the rockets as little more than fireworks, but they are a new type of rocket from Hamas with a payload of 300 lb and a range of 100 miles or more. That should not be forgotten.

[Mrs Ellman]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. Those rockets are aimed at and landing on places such as Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa. Munir al-Masri, a senior Hamas spokesperson, stated only two days ago, on 15 July:

“Hamas will continue hitting Israel until the last Zionist leaves the whole of Palestine, from the sea to the river.”

It is pretty clear what this is all about.

The situation is intolerable. Neither the Israeli Government nor any other Government could countenance this targeted attack on their citizens, the aim of which is to kill and to destroy. It is interesting to note the comment made by Gershon Baskin, who is renowned for his efforts working with Palestinians and Israelis to seek peace. Indeed, he was a pivotal figure in the release of Gilad Shalit. He spoke only last week of his absolute despair. He said that he called on the Hamas leadership not to intensify its actions. He knows that his message went right to the top, to Khaled Meshaal, the Hamas leader. With absolute despair, he said that the Hamas leader simply said, “Bring it on.” The situation is extremely grave.

A large number of Palestinian civilians have been killed or injured, which is a matter of deep regret. It is a tragedy for them as much as it would be for Israelis to be injured or killed. The responsibility for the deaths and injuries has to lie with those who decided to put their rocket bases, launchers and headquarters in civilian populations—Hamas. Indeed, a senior Hamas spokesman, Sami Abu Zuhri, said only two days ago, on 15 July:

“The fact that people are willing to sacrifice themselves against Israeli weapons in order to protect their homes is a strategy that is proving itself.”

The Israelis feel that they have to stop those deadly rockets being launched, deliberately targeted at Israeli citizens. The Israelis know that they have to go to civilian areas, and they are consciously and as a matter of policy informing the civilians in those areas about what is about to happen and asking them to leave, because they do not wish to have civilian casualties. It is clear from that statement—there are many others—that the Hamas leadership is gloating over the situation and the death of its own citizens. That is absolutely deplorable and should not be countenanced.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I, too, congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) on securing the debate. He made a first-class speech that many of us could agree with in large part. I, too, draw attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests in relation to visits to Israel and to the Palestinian territories.

I want to speak briefly about the situation in Gaza and our country’s and Government’s support for Israel and its right to defend itself. I make no apologies for repeating some of the statistics the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) gave in her excellent speech on what has actually been happening in Gaza. She mentioned that 1,300 rockets have been fired at Israel since last Monday. That is more than 160 a day. Nine hundred and sixty-six of those rockets have exploded in Israel and 218 have been intercepted by Israel’s Iron Dome defence system.

As I said in an intervention on the hon. Lady, it is frankly disgusting that some people, who would call themselves friends of Palestine, simply refer to those attacks as effectively firing fireworks at Israel. The fact that Israel is strong and has the capability to defend itself through Iron Dome should not in any way diminish our understanding of the scale, range and size of those rockets. Rockets have repeatedly been fired as far as Jerusalem, which is 55 miles from Gaza; Tel Aviv, which is 44 miles away, and even Haifa, which is 100 miles away. That is nothing new, of course, because since the beginning of 2014, 2,000 rockets and mortars have been launched from Gaza into the south of the state of Israel. Since 2001, more than 15,000 rockets have landed in Israel. That is an average of three attacks every day. I wonder how we would respond to such aggression and such threats.

That is not to say that the situation is not intolerable for residents and citizens living in the Gaza strip. I think that all of us in this place, whatever our views on who is to blame for the recent situation, would wish to express our condolences and horror at what is happening there at the moment.

Of course, we have heard some talk of the ceasefire proposal. I take on board in part the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), but there is no doubt that Israel communicated very strongly its intention to de-escalate, following the Egyptian proposal, and it did embark on that course of de-escalation with a suspension of attacks. What happened in response to that? Hamas did not not know about this proposal, which is what some seem to be implying or suggesting—that because it had not gone via the United States or through certain other channels, it was in some way a surprise to Hamas. It was not a surprise to Hamas. It knew about it sufficiently to be able to reject it, and it answered the proposal with a volley of 50 rockets following the suspension of strikes by Israel at 9 am on Tuesday. The US Secretary of State, John Kerry, also seemed perfectly satisfied with the proposal. He publicly backed it and urged both parties to sign up to it.

[Richard Burden]

How does the hon. Gentleman know that Hamas knew about the proposal? Who put it to Hamas? What was its response? And at what time of the night did that happen?

[Andrew Percy]

Hamas knew about the proposal sufficiently to reject it and then to fire 50 rockets in response to it, so I think that tells us all we need to know. And President Abbas seemed to know about it, because he stood up, quite rightly, and urged Hamas to accept it. This is a concern.

[Jim Sheridan in the Chair]

We must remember why we are in this situation and where we have got to. I understand the UK Government’s support for the unity Government. I understand their aims in doing so, and I understand that they have the best of intentions. It is a concern, however, that one of the unity Government’s constituent parties—although it is not actively serving in that Government, which is a technocratic one—does not recognise the state of Israel in its charter, and that it seeks not only the total destruction of Israel but, as my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire said in his opening speech, the destruction of Jewish people around the world. I cannot understand how we can possibly expect to move forward with the unity Government when some of the potential members will not sign up to the Quartet principles. I will not dwell on the subject, but I agree entirely with the points made by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside).

[Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend acknowledge that actions in overseas territories, such as Palestinian territories and Israel, have implications for my constituents? The Community Security Trust has said that anti-Semitic attacks have doubled, and of the 50 attacks that have occurred in recent weeks, 30 have been directly attributed to the incidents in those territories. The insistence of Hamas and other organisations on making claims such as we are discussing ends in violence towards my constituents.

[Andrew Percy]

Indeed, and I am sorry to hear about that. There are many good people who support the Palestinian cause for just reasons, but we must be honest and say that some use the cause for more sinister ends. We have heard examples of those, and they are truly shocking. I have no doubt that everybody here, whatever their view on the conflict, would condemn such actions entirely.

I want to say a little about the Israeli response. It has saddened me that some have bandied about phrases regarding collective punishment and the proportionality of the response. It is incredibly sad that people have died on any side of the conflict, but we cannot conclude, because of the way Hamas acts and the fact that it puts more of its civilians in harm’s way, that Israel’s response must be disproportionate simply because more people have sadly died. Let us be honest about what is going on. Israel does not fire rockets from its civilian population. While we have been debating, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency has confirmed that one of its schools in Gaza has been used as a hiding place for rockets, and the agency is due to make a statement on that shortly. That tells us all we need to know about why there are such large numbers of civilian casualties.

[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

I am pleased that my hon. Friend has raised that point. The charge has been raised against Israel that it is committing a crime by firing on families. My hon. Friend’s point is an important one; there is a difference between firing on families because they are families, and because they are being used as a shield to hide army and control centre operations. As far as I have seen, where families have been fired on, Israel has agreed to investigate it, admitting that it is not the right thing to do and quite a different thing from firing on control centres.

[Jim Sheridan (in the Chair)]

Order. Interventions are getting a bit long. Can we cut them down, please?

[Andrew Percy]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. It is incredibly sad that the situation is such that civilians have been used as human shields. It is distressing that on Hamas’s Facebook page, the Ministry of the Interior and of National Security has advised Gazan citizens to ignore Israel’s warnings to get out. There are even “knock on the door” mortars fired in advance of an attack to warn Gazans of an impending strike but, sadly, Hamas is officially—

[Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)]

rose—

[Robert Halfon]

rose—

[Andrew Percy]

The hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) has not been here for the debate, so I will give way to my hon. Friend.

[Robert Halfon]

Does what my hon. Friend has said about UNWRA finding out that missiles were being kept in schools not show the truth of the statement that Hamas uses its civilians to defend its missiles, whereas Israel is using its missile defence to defend its civilians?

[Andrew Percy]

It absolutely does. It is appalling that, simply because there have been more deaths on one side, some people conclude that the response has been disproportionate. Hamas chooses to use civilians in such a way because, let us be honest, the more bodies that are photographed, the better it is for Hamas’s PR campaign. That is a terrible situation, but why else would the Ministry of the Interior be telling its citizens to ignore warnings to leave their homes because of an impending strike? What other reason could there be?

[Mrs Ellman]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that his comment about Hamas is verified by the public statement made by Sami Abu Zuhri on 15 July, who said:

“The fact that people are willing to sacrifice themselves against Israeli weapons in order to protect their homes is a strategy that is proving itself”?

[Andrew Percy]

The hon. Lady puts it perfectly. That is a strategy.

I will move on because time is pressing. What would we do in such a situation? If 65% to 75% of our population was in range—

[Grahame M. Morris]

rose—

[Andrew Percy]

I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I only want to make a friendly intervention.

[Andrew Percy]

All right. I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, even though he has not been here for the whole debate.

[Grahame M. Morris]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is a fellow member of the Select Committee on Health. I apologise for being late; I was presenting a petition at No. 10 Downing street. He is outlining a scenario that has made me wonder: if he had been Defence Secretary at the time of the IRA bombings, would he have advocated the carpet bombing of east Belfast or Kilburn?

[Andrew Percy]

No, but I would expect my Government to do all that was required to defend their citizens, particularly when the country is a democratic state. That is why I hope Israel will take the necessary steps, to the utmost and to the end, to defend its people and track down terrorists. We are talking about a terrorist organisation as defined not only by the state of Israel but by this country. I would absolutely expect my Government to respond forcefully to such acts of aggression.

I will end shortly because I know that time is pressing, although I would have liked to say something about the humanitarian situation and assistance to Gaza. We all agree that the situation is terrible. I hope that the Minister will continue to affirm this country’s commitment to Israel’s right to defend itself, and that he will push even harder to achieve progress in the middle east, as the right hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire said. The situation must not continue, on either side, for much longer. There must be a renewed emphasis on peace, and rockets on either side will not achieve that. I hope the Minister will confirm the Government’s stance on that matter. Of course, he is new to his role, and I congratulate him on it.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—