Daylight Saving Bill (Money)

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

The hon. Lady makes the salient point that there will be no more daylight. What is actually happening is that people are being moved into the darkness. Clocks started off measuring time and ended up governing people’s lives, and people are going to find—as they found 30 or 40 years ago—that they will be living their lives in the early part of the day in darkness. When push came to shove at that time, the vote in this House was 366 votes to 81. That was not just Scottish Members but Members from all over the UK. Once they had experienced it, they would not have it again.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Perhaps it would be timely for me to remind the House that we are not debating the Bill itself or the merits of the Bill. We are debating a money resolution to commission a study that will look at the evidence. I will rule Members out of order if they try to re-debate the Bill. That is not the purpose of this money resolution.

[Miss McIntosh]

I simply submit, Madam Deputy Speaker, in response to the points made by the Minister and the promoter of the Bill, that there would be no benefits and that the cost estimate in the money resolution of £750,000 is a conservative estimate that covers only the cost of the research. The Minister has not put to the House this evening what any potential costs to other Government Departments or local authorities would be. It is disingenuous to say that it would not put lives at risk to have darker, colder mornings and I regret that we are not having this debate on the money resolution in January or February when mornings are at their darkest. It is true that the evenings are getting lighter in January and February, but the mornings are most certainly getting darker.

[Miss McIntosh]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making those points, but I have heard for the first time this evening that the Government support this Bill. My understanding was that that was not the position—and that was from the Prime Minister down. I think this is the first occasion on which the House has been informed that the Government now back the Bill on the basis of amended proposals in my hon. Friend’s Bill, which will now proceed to a Second Reading.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. The Bill is not having a Second Reading. This is a money resolution and the Bill has had its Second Reading. The content of the Bill has been discussed; this is a money resolution to provide for a study. I have already pointed that out to the House and to the hon. Lady and I would be grateful if Members would stay in order.

[Miss McIntosh]

I am most grateful for your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker. As a result of the money resolution going through this evening, the Bill will pass to the Committee stage. Were the House to reject the money resolution this evening, that would not prevent the Bill from proceeding to Committee. It would allow the Government to do a more thorough account of what the total costs would be. Perhaps the Minister responding at the conclusion of this little debate will address my particular concerns about what the cost will be to local authorities in England.

We on the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee have called for evidence on the potential effects on rural communities and farms. The Minister and the House will accept that it is all very well to consult the devolved Assemblies and Parliaments, as the Minister informed the House, but remote areas such as north Yorkshire, Cumbria, Northumbria and other parts a long way from Essex and the south-east will not have the opportunity to be consulted.

We had the trial from 1968 to 1971. It was resoundingly rejected, as the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) so eloquently stated, and I do not believe that there is any compelling argument for subjecting the country to a further trial when, as we understand from the Government and as I entirely accept, we are living through a time of economic crisis. Will the Minister inform the House where the sum of £750,000 is proposed to come from in his departmental budget?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr MacNeil]

I checked the clock; I was two minutes late. But the substantial point is that the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. This is not a north versus south or an England versus Scotland issue. Indeed, I feel quite an English nationalist in the midst of this debate, having to represent many of the good people of England who lived through the experiment of the late ’60s and early ’70s , and who write to me with their concerns looking for a voice. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct when he says that this is not a north versus south or a Scotland versus England issue.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Very interesting. The hon. Gentleman should face the Chair when he speaks so that I can hear him. However, I heard what he said and now that he has made his point I would like Mr Docherty to return to the money resolution.

[Thomas Docherty]

I am most grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I will stick to your guidance.

It is welcome that the Government are restricting the total sum that they believe they will spend. However, I agree with the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) that it is interesting that this afternoon Tory MPs voted against spending money on issues that really matter to people such as winter fuel payments. Will the Minister give a guarantee to the House that £750,000 will be the total expenditure of all Departments, not just his own, and the devolved Administrations, and that we will have a speedy and just resolution to the issue?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

It will take me less time to make my brief points than it takes to boil an egg. The argument is simple. It is about how best to align our lives to maximise the benefits of daylight. For most of us our lives are not aligned in that way; we get up after dawn and go to bed much later than sunset.

You spoke about studies, Madam Deputy Speaker. I conducted my own study when in opposition and recommend to the House my leaflet, “Time to Change the Clocks”, which goes through the benefits of daylight saving, particularly the studies that break down the benefits across the country. There would be a benefit in shifting the clocks. It would provide more time after work and school have finished. I recommend to the Minister and to the Bill Committee, if the Bill reaches Committee, that that aspect be brought into the study. For example, an additional 175 hours of daylight would be provided in Scotland if the clocks were moved—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is trying to be very ingenious in getting back to the main points of the Bill in a debate on a money resolution. He said that he would make his points briefly. We are talking about the money resolution and the study. Can we concentrate on that and not re-enact the debate on the Bill itself?

[Mr Ellwood]

I give way to the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds).

[Mr Ellwood]

I have now been advised to do so twice, so I will heed that advice. I am pleased to support the Bill. This is the furthest the proposal has ever got in Parliament since the original daylight saving experiment in the 1970s. I should add that that experiment was overturned not because the nation did not want it. The polls at the time were very much supportive of it. It was overturned because the farmers of the day—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman will resume his seat. I cannot understand what is complicated about this. We are dealing with a money resolution and I would appreciate it if Members stuck to that. Mr Dodds, I do not need any help and can manage it. Mr Ellwood, would you now refer to the money resolution and not to previous polls or debates unless they relate specifically to the money being spent?

[Mr Ellwood]

I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is one of the subjects that people get very passionate about, which is why there is a tendency to wander off the subject. I will complete my contribution by congratulating my hon. Friend the Minister on bringing this motion forward and hope that it will receive the support of the House today and the Bill will move on to Committee.