Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 14th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I bet that looked good when the hon. Gentleman wrote it down. It is utter rubbish.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I hope that the Secretary of State does not think that this is a load of rubbish. I visited this morning, with Dame Steve Shirley, a wonderful place where young people with autism are prepared for work. They are very concerned about how universal credit is going to affect them, because they have already seen education not being allowed in their personal plans. Remember that autism costs this country £34 billion a year. If we do not get those young people into employment, the sum will increase and the misery of the families will also increase.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Gentleman is right. Autism is a real problem, and we want to help the young people and adults who have that problem as much as we can. Universal credit lends itself hugely to that. Unlike in the past, when those people would have gone from jobseeker’s allowance to working tax credits by themselves and had no advice, help or support once in work, under universal credit the adviser will stay with them all the way.

Importantly, we have now committed £100 million to train advisers to be specialists in helping people who have medical conditions such as autism, and that should help enormously. I would be very happy for the hon. Gentleman to come and discuss with me and the Minister for Disabled People what more we can do, because we are determined to make sure that universal credit helps those in the deepest need as much as it possibly can.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 7th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right that growing up in a working family is crucial for the life chances of children. When this Government took office, there were more than 2.5 million children growing up in workless households. That has fallen by nearly half a million since 2010. By targeting worklessness, the five new life chance measures that we have introduced will make an enormous difference to children’s lives. I understand that there are now almost no workless households in the south-east.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I ask the Secretary of State to be a little careful—none of us should get complacent about worklessness. Has he seen the research in the United States on the Uberisation of work, when people cease to have good employers with pensions, rights and contracts, and are increasingly pushed into self-employment, where they have no rights?

Child Poverty

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Thursday 25th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I recognise and pay tribute to the huge work that my hon. Friend has done, and continues to do, to try to transform the lives of the most troubled families. The troubled families programme was a success but we are now extending it, and within that extension there is scope to do exactly what he wants to do.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that all of us who want every child in our country to have a full and happy life do get worried about not just the issues in this morning’s debate, but the fact that responsibility for children is spread over so many Departments? There is no longer enough focus on children in a holistic sense. Will he lead the Government in doing something quite quickly about that?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Gentleman is right—I often find myself in agreement with him. I am now tasked with chairing the Social Justice Cabinet Committee, the purpose of which is to bring together all work on families and children and to ensure that we have a concerted, single approach to it. But he is absolutely right that that is half the problem in government.

Amendment of the Law

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 23rd March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am a little bit lost. I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is saying that the previous Prime Minister was claiming credit when he was Chancellor in the previous—[Interruption.] If he is referring to my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), it is difficult for the previous Labour Government to claim credit when their Chief Secretary left a letter on the desk saying, “There’s no money left.” If the hon. Gentleman wants to claim credit for that, I will certainly allow him to intervene.

While the Budget proposed new measures to boost growth and support private sector job creation, in turn increasing employment, the Opposition’s only alternative, the jobs guarantee, it now turns out, is more like a no-jobs guarantee—a make-work scheme that the Institute of Directors has said is

“not the source of sustainable jobs”.

It is the kind of scheme that, for the past 20 years, the OECD has demonstrated is expensive and counter-productive in the long term. It says that large deadweight losses, displacement and substitution effects are of little success in helping unemployed people to get permanent jobs in the open labour market. We got rid of the Opposition’s last scheme, which did not work, and this one will fare no better. Labour’s flagship programme is just a rehash of the failed make-work schemes that seem to be its solution almost every time.

The hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) made this comment about Jobs Growth Wales:

“I went to see a scheme very similar to this in Wales last week and...that’s what we would aim to do across the UK”.

If that is what she thinks she is going to do, let us deal with what Jobs Growth Wales actually produces. It has been revealed to be an expensive exercise in cherry-picking the best-quality people who want to go back to work. Far from being a guarantee for all, which I understood was her policy, the hardest to help are not eligible for the programme, and only one in three applicants has got a place on it. A success rate of 80%, at a cost of £6,000 per place, is trumpeted, yet that compares with the 90% success rate of all—not some of—the eligible people in Wales who apply, who move off jobseeker’s allowance within nine months anyway. The reality is that this programme, on top of already successful programmes getting people into work, is less successful than the programme that it seeks to replace. Apparently, this is the programme that the Opposition want to copy and turn into a national programme in government, and it is all a rehash of the future jobs fund.

In the public sector, this Government have achieved the same success as the future jobs fund achieved through work experience in the private sector, but—here is the key—at a twentieth of the cost of what it cost Labour to provide jobs in the public sector. That is the problem with this make-work scheme.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

While the right hon. Gentleman goes on mudslinging about party policies, he is skimming over the fact that what is wrong with our economy and the jobs being created is that over the past five years we have had a terrible deficiency of highly skilled workers. We are still churning out apprentices from short-term apprenticeships of a year, on average. That is not meeting the real need. When is he going to address that? If he does not do so, he will never solve the problem of low productivity.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that that was the situation we inherited. As I said earlier, under this Government there have been 2 million new apprenticeships aimed at getting people the necessary skills. There are also more people going to university and studying science. The reality is that it is not possible to turn around in a few years the problem mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, which followed 13 years of Labour government. We have set in train all of the right measures for the medium and long term to get more skilled people back into work. Before the hon. Gentleman sneers a little too much about people going back to work, I want to say that they are far better off in work and working towards full-time pay than sitting on benefits being depressed and worried.

[Mr Sheerman]

indicated assent.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The hon. Gentleman agrees with me. The key point is that we want to get people into work, including skilled work, and for them to develop skills not only while they are in work, but as they come through apprenticeships and university.

I want to return to the make-work scheme, because I have a feeling in my bones that the Opposition are beginning to slide away from it. They have failed to answer a number of questions. We have asked them time and again how many private businesses have signed up to the jobs guarantee, but we have never had an answer. We have been told endlessly that there is a lot of interest, but we have never heard any examples.

I heard the shadow Chancellor on, I think, a Radio 4 programme and he seemed rather scared and unusually unable to be coherent. [Interruption.] All right, I will drop the “unusually”. He was unable to list the vast number of private sector companies taking part. When asked how many there were, he seemed to lose his nerve and said:

“But if not, you can do it through the voluntary sector. If not, you have to have a final backstop: a public work scheme.”

The shadow Chancellor has pretty much made it clear that the scheme is going to be about jobs created not in the private sector, but in the public sector. [Interruption.] Oh no, it will not: the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) knows that to be the case. In other words, the Opposition would repeat the mistakes of the past.



I hope that the hon. Member for Leeds West will answer another question we have asked the Opposition time and again: how long will the guarantee last? Back in 2011, we heard about a 12-month guarantee for young people unemployed for one year. By 2013, the proposal had morphed into a six-month guarantee—half the time previously advertised—for those unemployed for two years. Even that is not enough, for as Labour begins to see what a disaster the policy is and the shadow Chancellor begins to wind away from it—there is no interest in it from private sector firms and it has no traction with business—they seem to be beginning to realise that it is not worth all the money they are talking about spending.

I had a look at the Labour website when it launched its tuition fee policy. Interestingly, buried in the relevant document—I would like to say it was in the small print, although the print was pretty small anyway—I found that the scope of the flagship jobs guarantee had been halved again. This announcement was made without fanfare and without anyone taking to the airwaves to tell everybody what a wonderful scheme it was going to be. Labour now proposes “a six-month job”—remember it was for a year originally—

“for any more 18-24 year olds who find themselves claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance for a year”.

It also proposes “a three-month job”—it used to be for six months—

“for the over 25s out of work for two years”,

not one year. In other words, Labour is edging back, killing off its policy bit by bit, and I suspect that eventually it will let it go altogether.

Following a Budget in which the Chancellor once again pledged that no spending commitments would be unfunded, the final and most significant unanswered question—I hope the hon. Lady will answer it, because this is her last opportunity to do so—is: how will the jobs guarantee be paid for? That is a legitimate question, for the Budget punched a hole in Labour’s two proposals with two new measures: the first to levy funding from the banks and the second to restrict pensions tax relief.

Given that the shadow Work and Pensions Secretary has herself declared that

“we need to make sure that the sums add up”,

it is right that we do the maths, starting with the cost of the jobs guarantee, an estimation of which was done by Treasury officials in January. The cost of the jobs guarantee for 2015-16 is forecast to be £1.54 billion for over-25s and £540 million for under-25s. That is £2 billion in total in one year alone, which is far more than the Labour estimate. Taking the small print of the document we found, even if the figure in it is halved, as the Labour U-turn seems to make clear that it will be, it is more than three times the £300 million a year that Labour says it will cost, at close on £1 billion a year.

When the hon. Lady gets up to speak, I hope that she will explain how Labour will fund the jobs guarantee. If she is going to use the bankers’ bonus tax again, I must tell her that it has been spent 11 times over. Here are the things on which it has been spent: reversing the VAT increase—£12.75 billion; reversing the tax credit savings—£5.8 billion; more housing—£1.2 billion; reversing the child benefit savings—£3.1 billion; more capital spending—£5.8 billion; child care—£800 million; and there are more. The last Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West, said that he did not think it would be feasible to repeat the one-off bankers’ bonus tax, but the reality is that Labour will repeat it to pay again and again for other things.

Another announcement in the Budget was the excellent decision to reduce the tax-free lifetime allowance. It had already been reduced from the £1.8 million inherited from Labour to £1.25 million, and it will now fall to £1 million. The latest change will save about £600 million a year. Importantly, it will affect only 4% of those approaching retirement. That is in stark contrast to Labour’s proposal to reduce the tax-free annual allowance, which would plunder the pension pots of moderately paid, long-serving public servants such as police officers, teachers, nurses and others. With the Government already taking effective steps to curb the size of the very largest pension pots—my right hon. Friend the Minister for Pensions has been involved in that—Labour’s proposed pension tax relief changes will be left null and void. Despite the fact that Labour has committed the money for the purpose of increasing working and child tax credits and, very recently, to pay for the £3.1 billion cost of lower tuition fees, it will apparently be used only to fund the jobs guarantee. As for Labour’s final funding proposal, restricting pension tax relief for those with incomes of more than £150,000, it would not come in for a further three years.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 8th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The troubled families programme has turned around the lives of over 69,000 families in England, and 120,000 had been helped by August 2014. In Brighton and Hove, the programme has worked with 675 families, changing their lives, and 417 families were turned around by August 2014, giving them a new start in life.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Did the Secretary of State hear the wonderful Professor Elizabeth Dowler on the “Today” programme this morning, when she very articulately said that what poorer people—those on low wages, working hard—want is a decent job paying enough to put food on the table and to pay the bills that have been going up inexorably?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I heard that interesting debate between Professor Dowler and the head of the Oxford food bank, who talked about the wider ramifications of issues concerning access to food and food distribution, which is a matter for supermarkets. Of course, we want people to earn more. The key thing after the recession was to get people into work. We have got 2 million people back into work as a starting point, and we know that for every year in work a person’s salary rises on average by about 4%. Is there more to do? Yes, of course there is. We are looking carefully at that report and we will respond appropriately. I promise the hon. Gentleman that I take the report very seriously.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 3rd November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

This is a tough one, but I will endeavour to do my best. On behalf of my team and my Government, I accept that we are doing the right thing, and more people are going to work than ever before.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

T6. Will the Secretary of State confirm the rumours that the job fairs occurring up and down the country get a lot of assistance from his Department and that that assistance goes to Conservative MPs and even Conservative candidates, but that Labour and Opposition Members are not offered the same support when they run anything similar?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That allegation is without foundation. The jobcentres in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and all the others will give every bit of support to every Labour Member and any other Member, nationalist or otherwise, to get their job fairs going. I recommend that Labour Members do more to create job fairs in their own constituencies, to help people get back to work.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 13th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right: many people are shocked by what they see. That is why the public back our welfare reform package, which will get more people back to work and end these abuses. All these abuses date back to the last Government, who had massive spending and trapped people in benefit dependency.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I ask the Secretary of State to look carefully at his many policies that are delivered through intermediaries such as G4S, Capita and Atos? Are not many of those private sector providers deeply ineffective and inefficient? They cause many of my constituents great grief.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 14th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will get back to my hon. Friend about the more specific details, if he wants. About 26,000 new businesses have started already and the target is to get 40,000 going by December 2013. There are about 2,000 start-ups every single month under this scheme. Out of the first 3,000 people on it, 85% are still off benefit a year later. That is a successful scheme.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is the Secretary of State aware that many Labour Members support this measure, but we are careful about ensuring that the quality of mentoring is good, that the evaluation of the likelihood of success be built on initiatives such as the new scheme of Hertfordshire university and that the scheme leads to long-term sustainable businesses?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have great deal of respect for him, and he is right that much depends on the quality of the mentoring; we are doing our level best to make sure that it is as good it could possibly be. If he has any suggestions about how to improve it further, the door is open and I am always happy to see him and discuss them with him. I would revisit any project he would like to nominate if he wanted us to look at any difficulties and I would consider looking at any improvements that might be worth making.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 1st July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

12. What his plans are for reducing absolute child poverty.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

The hon. Gentleman asks a really important question about absolute poverty. The threshold has been rebased this year under a new baseline. That changes the way it is reported. Those changes result from a reclassification and do not represent a real change in children’s circumstances. However, low-income and material deprivation is static or marginally improved.

The hon. Gentleman asks about what we are doing. There are a number of programmes through bringing in universal credit to help the poorest to some of the Work programme and the troubled families programme—I will go through more detail with him if he wants—as well as the pupil premium, and early intervention and education. There is a raft of work to try to change the lives of those likely to be on low incomes.

[Mr Sheerman]

I know the Secretary of State to be thoughtful man, and quite a caring man as well, but is he not concerned that Maggie Atkinson, the Children’s Commissioner, only as recently as last week said that the recent reforms of welfare benefit had put another 600,000 children into real poverty?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I like to think that on both sides of the House the objective is to reduce child poverty. That is our stated objective; I think it was the stated objective of the Labour Government.

Jobs and Social Security

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Sheerman]

My hon. Friend will forgive me for knowing less about the situation in Scotland than I do about the situation in Yorkshire and England, but I am sure that she is right. There are many local differences, as I am finding in my area.

That is why I asked for the Freudian analysis earlier. Lord Freud, before he became a Member of the upper House, was asked by Tony Blair to evaluate which programmes worldwide had actually worked and addressed the structural problem of how to get people into work so that they can be full citizens. He looked right across the piece to identify which programmes had been successful. By requesting the Freudian analysis, I was asking whether it was good information. It was the whole basis of the policy that influenced our Labour Government’s policy and also that of the Conservative party. Freud is very important to these discussions, however he has been interpreted, and we should not forget that he was trying to look at that central problem we all face.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Given that the hon. Gentleman has asked about my noble friend, who is an excellent addition to our team—whichever party he represented previously, he is a very good man and is doing very well—I may say that the Australian system, which is the basis of the Work programme, has shown some of the best results, which occur once companies are geared up and focused on getting people back into long-term, sustained employment. The system is working very well and says that it is on track.

[Mr Sheerman]

I thank the Secretary of State for that intervention, and I accept what he says. He knows that what I am getting at in this short contribution is that we play this game of blaming each other all the time, but the problem is international and global and we will have to sometimes forget party differences and work together on it. I want to make a couple of suggestions as to how we might do that.

Let us face it: all Governments throughout Europe, the United States and beyond have a long history of failure. Modern industrial democracies have this problem of skilling the work force. Indeed, I have never heard such castigation of our country’s further education system as that in yesterday’s annual report by the chief inspector of Ofsted, who said how poorly further education was performing in our country. All the evidence shows that further education is where young people get skills for the good life. It is where they get high skills to get good jobs to be the full citizens that I am after.

I have never heard of the chief inspector picking on one town in particular. I do not know what he has against Hastings, but he said that early years and primary schools are a failure for the children of Hastings and that they also fail when they go on to secondary school and further education. I was astonished. Thank God he was not talking about Huddersfield. It comes down to the fact that a significant percentage of people in our country have inadequate training and skills, and we need to work across parties to do something about that.

I want to share some of my experiences. One of my last reports when I chaired the Children, Schools and Families Committee looked at the problem of those not in education, employment or training. We found that intelligent programmes on the ground which represented a positive response from local authorities that understood their local communities, and which also had good local skills training and good employers, could make a significant difference to the number of people gaining skills and getting into work. There are good exemplars in this country, but some towns are more fortunate than others in retaining their manufacturing and employment base.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 5th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Indeed I can. The innovation fund was set up by me when I came into the Department. It consists of approximately £30 million of seedcorn funding to enable voluntary groups, charities and organisations—beyond the normal organisations that one comes across in the work process—to show that their programmes, which help people to deal with drug addiction, family breakdown or gang violence, actually work, to prove that concept, and to set them up to be able to run those programmes. At least 11 social impact bonds have come out of this and we have just launched a second round.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that much social breakdown stems from intergenerational worklessness? Is he as enthusiastic as many Opposition Members are about the Heseltine review, “No Stone Unturned”? Will he ensure that he takes a positive role in bringing some—indeed, most—of those recommendations to fruition?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

When one of the big beasts from the past roars, it is always difficult not to be incredibly enthusiastic about what they are roaring about, so I accept the hon. Gentleman’s invitation to express my interest and support for the report. Obviously there are details in it, but he makes the vital point that in too many communities there are families of two and three generations that have been beyond the work cycle. This is about getting them back into the idea of work not just for the money but because their whole lives disintegrate without it. I agree with him and will certainly make sure I tell Lord Heseltine how supported he is.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 25th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree. Actually it is so good that they volunteer for it; I wonder whether we should run a work experience programme for those on the Opposition Front Bench.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is very difficult for Opposition Members to get a word in on this one. Is not the Secretary of State being rather silly, because most people know that if the work experience is of high quality and does not displace other people’s jobs, we are all in favour of it? Is it not about time that all of us on both sides of the House made sure that we had decent schemes for young people, which are of high quality and lead to jobs?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I respect the hon. Gentleman and I am grateful for those comments; I wish that everybody else on his side of the House approached this issue with the same attitude. Work experience has resulted in about half those going on to it getting off the benefits roll. They want to do it—this is really important—and what they are getting from it is experience they cannot otherwise get. Employers say to people time and again, “We can’t employ you because you don’t have experience,” yet they could not get that experience. Surely this has got to be a good thing for them and a good thing for all of us.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 5th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My right hon. Friend the Minister of State who has responsibility for employment held a meeting with a number of employers who are part of the scheme, all of whom backed and supported it. They were concerned that the message goes out that the scheme benefits young people. One employer who is not a profit-maker—the chief executive of Barnardo’s—said:

“Scrapping the scheme would have taken a lifeline from thousands of young people.”

I should also quote a girl called Dawn, who was on the programme after having real trouble finding work. She said that work experience was daunting, but that:

“It’s work experience—the clue’s in the name. Nobody is going to give you a job unless you get experience first, and that means sometimes working for free”.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I urge the Secretary of State to sort out the teething problems with the programme—there have been such problems. Will he look at the Morrisons initiative, which is different and overcomes many of the criticisms that have been made of the programme? Will he also be assured that many Opposition Members want a scheme that gets young people into work and work experience rather than being on the dole?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I accept the hon. Gentleman’s positive involvement. I simply say to him that the scheme as it stands is incredibly positive. More than 50% of those who enter the work experience scheme go into work, many with the employers who took them on for work experience. The reason we set up the scheme is what young people said, and they told us, “Our problem is that when we go to an interview, employers ask us, ‘What experience have you got?' We say, ‘We don’t have experience.' They say, ‘We can’t employ you.' But without employment we can't get work experience.” I genuinely believe from our discussions with employers that the scheme is a positive move, but I will certainly look at the scheme that the hon. Gentleman talks about.

Pensions Bill [Lords]

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Monday 20th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As I said at the outset, I will happily take an intervention on that part of the Bill when I come to it. Of course, that requires the hon. Gentleman’s staying for the whole debate, but that is up to him.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Many of us agree with the Secretary of State that it was about time that someone grappled with this particularly difficult issue of reforming our pension system, so I congratulate him on that, but we need to know very early in the debate whether that group of women will be fairly treated and whether the Government will think again, because those of us who feel positive about many of the reforms would find that a sticking point.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I guarantee the hon. Gentleman that I will discuss the issue, and I hope he will still be here then—no doubt we can have an exchange on it.

The Bill addresses important issues, not just that of pension age. It is key that we get this generation saving and make sure that savings count and are not frittered away by the means test. We also have to find a way of sharing the cost of the retirement system between generations, ensuring a fair settlement for both young and old. I know that people think that retirement is all about just the group who are retiring, but as we look down the road ahead it is also very much about the generation who will have to pick up many of the bills. These are not easy decisions, but I want to make sure that the House recognises that we have to take decisions about the next generation; otherwise we will be guilty of falling into the same slot as the previous Government, who left us with the deficit.

Let me address auto-enrolment. The Bill takes forward the previous Government’s plans for automatic enrolment, which were debated and widely supported during the passing of the Pensions Act 2008 and to which we remain absolutely committed. The Bill refines some of the policy’s parameters to ensure that automatic enrolment works as effectively as possible, following the recommendations of the “Making automatic enrolment work” review that we initiated. First, we propose an increase in the earnings threshold at which automatic enrolment is triggered from an expected £5,800 under the previous Government’s plans—I say expected because the figure involves assumptions about changes as a result of inflation—to £7,475. That will protect those on the lowest incomes and will reduce the risk of the lowest earners saving for a pension when they do not earn enough to make it worth making all that effort and sacrifice. It will also simplify administration for employers by aligning the earnings trigger with the existing personal tax threshold.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Barry Sheerman and Iain Duncan Smith

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The sanctions regime is about work being available. If work is not available, people cannot be expected to take jobs, so I give the hon. Gentleman the assurance that no one will be told that they are on sanctions if there is no work available. The sanctions apply only if a job is available, the claimant has been offered it and for one reason or another has not taken it, or if they are not complying with the details of what they are meant to be doing to seek work. That is only fair. People who pay their taxes want to know that everybody out there is seeking work. If they are seeking work sanctions should hardly ever apply, and in most cases they will not apply.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

The right hon. Gentleman is making a thoughtful speech, and I know him to be a thoughtful and caring politician. I will give careful consideration to much of the Bill and I will not vote against Second Reading. Is it not spoilt, however, by what is happening to the mobility component of disability living allowance? I visited a residential home in Huddersfield, in Edgerton, only last week. The Bill will destroy the lives of most of those people, 60% of whom are in wheelchairs.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman—although I am not sure: is he a right hon. Gentleman? [Interruption.] An hon. Gentleman—okay. That is something that his party should do—it is not for me—given his record of service.

Yes, I accept that there were issues. In fact, when we looked at the decisions taken at the time of the spending review, I reviewed the matter, after discussing it with the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), who is the Minister responsible for these matters. We visited lots of care homes—my hon. Friend went out to see people and talk to them—and we realised that there was a lot of chaos out there about what should be given to people in care homes, what care homes themselves provide, and what local authorities believe it is their statutory responsibility to provide. Some of them say that they do not have any such responsibility to provide mobility services, but others say that they do, and provide access to such services.

We have therefore changed the provisions in the Bill, as the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) has probably noticed. That will be incorporated in the review of disability living allowance. Our objective is to get rid of the overlaps, genuinely to find out what can be provided at local level, and to figure out what the amount should be to support someone in a care home, bearing in mind that mobility needs in a care home are likely to be variable, and different from the needs of someone living in the community completely independently. Adjustments will be necessary, but my hon. Friend and I give the hon. Gentleman and the House an undertaking that we are going to try to figure out what the right answer is. We will work out a set of figures, and how they can be applied. That is the purpose of the review; I guarantee that.