Parliamentary Standards

Dennis Skinner Excerpts

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I understand what my hon. Friend is saying but we all—not least my hon. Friend and the other Members who came to this House in May 2010—have a responsibility to explain to the public that things have changed. The system is independently regulated, and under the expenses system that we have had for the past four years and will have in the future there is no sense in which Members of this House are directly engaged in the process of judging other Members. The process is independent. We do not have any say in it; IPSA does.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Do the Leader of the House and the Government not realise that we are living in an austerity-riddled Britain where there have been more than 40% cuts in local government and where more than 1 million people have lost their benefits in the last few years? That is the climate for the people outside and Governments of all kinds should realise that set against that backcloth they cannot keep saying from that Dispatch Box, “We’re going to carry on regardless.” Listen to the tune and the noise outside.

[Mr Lansley]

I and other members of the Government are clear about the nature of the austerity required in public expenditure and across the country because the income of this country reduced by more than 7%, equivalent to £3,000 per household, under the previous Government, so yes, everything has changed. In this Parliament, in relation to the expenses system for Members of Parliament, things have changed. It is more rigorous; it is controlled; it is controlled independently; any complaints or failures are investigated independently; and any enforcement is done independently. This is not about Members of this House or me being complacent because for now and for the future the system has changed.

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Dennis Skinner Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Ms Eagle]

I am happy to give way, but I want to get on with my remarks. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) has been trying to get in for a while and I shall let him do so.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

On part 2, my hon. Friend has got on to the question of spending money prior to an election. Is there not a connection between the National Union of Students campaigning on student fees after 2010, and the Lib Dems? Some people asked me, “Are the Lib Dems supporting this rubbish—this gagging Bill?” and I said yes. That is because of their fear of 2010, which they do not want repeated in the run-up to the next general election. What a political scandal!

[Ms Eagle]

As always, my hon. Friend puts his finger on an extremely relevant point.

The Leader of the House made much of his personal commitment to the pre-legislative scrutiny of Bills, and I will be the first to praise him for that. However, his commitment is ringing pretty hollow now. The Government promised that there would be pre-legislative scrutiny on the lobbying proposals in part 1. In May 2012, when he was the Minister responsible, the present Minister for Immigration, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), told this House:

“We are going to . . . publish our proposals and put them up for pre-legislative scrutiny”.—[Official Report, 22 May 2012; Vol. 545, c. 972.]

There has been none, and the Government have deliberately chosen to preclude it by taking the Bill so quickly and on the Floor of the House.

Let us remind ourselves of what the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Norwich North (Miss Smith), who is now the responsible Minister, told the House in April this year—

Business of the House

Dennis Skinner Excerpts

Thursday 20th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for her response to the business statement and to the Opposition, in particular, for equipping me to announce the business for the Supply day next Tuesday. I join her in paying tribute to all those recognised in the birthday honours list. I congratulate, on behalf of the House, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell), my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Sir Andrew Stunell) on their awards. I would also like to congratulate Elizabeth Gardiner, from parliamentary counsel, and Roland Hunt, head of parliamentary support in the Opposition Whips Office, and I think that the House will be particular pleased to learn that Robin Fell, Principal Doorkeeper of the House, was made an Officer of the Order of the British Empire.

Honours are of course very appropriate for our Liberal Democrat colleagues in the coalition, and much deserved, so we are delighted to have seen them. I am nervous about the reference the shadow Leader of the House made to the benefit of the Liberal Democrat knights sitting at a round table. In this morning’s newspapers it was noted how good a round table is in enabling consensus to emerge in office meetings. The trouble is that the only round table I know that could accommodate all the Liberal Democrat knights is the one in my office, so do not tell the Deputy Prime Minister or there might be a furniture raid.

The shadow Leader of the House talked about the literature in south-west London—[Interruption.] Yes, it was this week. As she will be aware, and as the Deputy Leader of the House has advised me, that is a manifestation of the Liberal Democrats’ green policies; they do not waste paper. One should not waste a good leaflet.

On Syria, the shadow Leader of the House will have heard what the Prime Minister said yesterday, and the Foreign Secretary and other Foreign Office Ministers have kept the House fully informed. I think that I have been clear about this at business questions before, but for the avoidance of any doubt I will say it again: no decision has been made within Government for us to arm the Syrian National Coalition. Were any such decision to be made we would not implement it unless and until it secured the support of this House on a substantive motion. I believe that that meets the concern of colleagues. In addition, the Prime Minister yesterday accurately reflected on the simple fact that where national security interests are engaged it must be correct that the Government reserve the right to take any necessary action in defence of our security. I emphasise, however, that this in no sense qualifies the commitment I have given to the House on the question of arms and Syria.

The shadow Leader of the House asked about HS2. Her points will be addressed in the debate on the High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill, which will no doubt give an opportunity to look toward the introduction of the HS2 hybrid Bill. The pace at which the hybrid Bill will be able to progress will be debated next Wednesday in a number of motions relating to its procedure. It might benefit the House to know that the motions have now been tabled and are available, along with an explanatory memorandum, from the Vote Office.

The hon. Lady asked about banking, in particular the banking Bill. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was clear at the Mansion House last night that the Government welcome the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards. Indeed, I think we can all say now that it demonstrates what a good decision it was to proceed with a parliamentary commission. If we had gone down the line of a public inquiry, I suspect that evidence would still be being taken rather than measures being implemented. The Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill is before the House and the Chancellor has made it clear that, where measures require legislation, we will seek to introduce them during the consideration of the Bill. I have not yet had the opportunity to announce the remaining stages of that Bill in this House.

I have seen press reports about the Chancellor being referred to as Jeffrey. I heard this morning that there was a bit of a debate about who was cool at the G8 summit. Jeffrey Osborne would have been cool—that is for sure. From the Chancellor’s point of view, it is probably just as well that the President of the United States did not refer to him as Ozzy, which would have been worse.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

It’s better than Gideon, though, isn’t it?

[Mr Lansley]

I will just settle for George, if that is all right.

On the European Union (Referendum) Bill, I have announced that private Members’ Bills will be considered on Friday 5 July and I know that my colleagues are all looking forward to supporting my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton).

I do not think that the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) asked any further questions, but I want to say one more thing. She and her colleagues have scheduled a debate on lobbying next week and I want to emphasise that the Government are committed to enhancing the transparency of political life. This Government are the most transparent ever, proactively publishing details of ministerial meetings, Government procurement and other items of public interest. I am looking forward to next Tuesday’s debate, because it will be an opportunity to make very clear that we are proceeding with the coalition programme, as we always said we would, whereas the Labour party, over 13 years, never took a step. In fact, it put the issue in the “too hot to handle” basket. We as a Government are making it clear that we are going to do it and have said so time and again. It is curious that an Opposition motion is asking for a Bill to be introduced when we have said that we will introduce such a Bill before the summer recess.

Business of the House

Dennis Skinner Excerpts

Thursday 16th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

If I may, I will say to my right hon. Friend that because this matter relates to a particular case, I do not want to talk about it in any detail from the Dispatch Box. For his convenience, and that of the House, I note that there is scope for the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, of which I am a member, to ask questions about how IPSA undertakes its activities and the value for money it achieves. We held public evidence sessions last Tuesday, which of course affords an opportunity for IPSA to be held accountable.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Does the Leader of the House recall that a few weeks ago after the fire at Daw Mill colliery I asked him for a statement on the coal industry, with particular reference to UK Coal, which owns another two pits—Thoresby and Kellingley? I drew his attention specifically to the fact that because Daw Mill was the big money pit owned by UK Coal, the other two pits could be in serious jeopardy. More importantly, it could cost the Government up to £450 million to pay out for the pensions and redundancies if UK Coal goes under. Would it make a lot of sense for this Government, this coalition, to say to the coal authority that they should be allowed to take over the remaining assets of UK Coal and save what remains of the coal industry—in other words, to nationalise it?

[Mr Lansley]

I do remember the questions the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members have asked on that subject. I repeat that I cannot, in the House, remotely enter a discussion of the commercial prospects of UK Coal. However, I again say that the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon), is closely engaged. I will encourage him to correspond with the hon. Gentleman and other Members who are directly involved.

Sittings of the House (Wednesday 17 April)

Dennis Skinner Excerpts

Tuesday 16th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

It is almost like history repeating itself. In the mid ’70s, I came down on the train and my Whip told me that there would be a few tributes to Anthony Eden and that then the House would finish for the day. I thought, “Surely, that’s not fair. We’re actually packing up because Anthony Eden, who was living in the Caribbean, has died. So the tributes will be paid and then the House will finish for the rest of the day.” I had an argument with the Labour Whip, and then I went in for the tributes. I had not been here very long and I am not so sure I thought at the time it would be a good idea for me to say anything, because, as sure as night followed day, a lot of people were going to pay these tributes to Anthony Eden, who some of them had never even seen. So it is not as if this has not happened before.

I had been a miner for 20-odd years, I said that when I worked down the pit and somebody died, four people took him out on a trolley along the rails, and they were allowed to go home and the rest of the pit continued to work, because people like us had managed to secure a tiny agreement with the National Coal Board to get £250 for the miner’s widow. On that basis, the rest of us went to work. What I am trying to convey is that the people who concern me now are the people out there having to suffer austerity, the benefit cuts and the increasing costs of their own funeral. They are just like the people who concerned me back in the days of 1975—the miners I had left behind in order to speak for them in Parliament. I remember all the Tories walking out the moment I made that kind of criticism. I suppose it is an indication of the split Tory party that some of them are staying today, because they have not followed their leader. Indeed, the leader has not ordered them out.

Let’s not kid ourselves. We hear talk about the thing that we sometimes suggest has gone away: class. That’s what it is: it is about class. It’s about the fact that people out there have to live their lives in a different way and that there is one rule for those at the top and another for those at the bottom. It has never changed—I wish it had, but it hasn’t.

I heard about the chain of events—because that is what it was: it seemed to grow like Topsy. First of all there was going to be some sort of ceremonial funeral. The next thing we hear—I have to say it to you, Mr Speaker—is you telling us that the chimes of Big Ben are going to stop. Then we hear that we are going to abandon Prime Minister’s Question Time. What’s it all about? That is why the people out there are angry—a lot of them. I am not suggesting for a minute that there is a majority—I never have—but I do believe that this Government are out of touch with the people out there on a big scale, and this in the same week when benefits were cut again. We should of course have Prime Minister’s Question Time.

[Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

I’ve got question No. 13.

[Mr Skinner]

The hon. Gentleman may have No. 13, but in the absence of that list I have got about 15 questions in my pocket to ask. Of course we should have Prime Minister’s Question Time. The people out there would want us to put the case about how they manage to make ends meet. We are talking about the people who commit suicide because they are up to their necks in debt and they have got so many callers knocking on their door—first it’s Wonga and then it’s God knows how many others. That is what is happening in our society among the working class.

I do not think there is any doubt, whatever we think, that Mrs Thatcher was a divisive character. I am too, but I am not Prime Minister. I know that there is the desire within a lot of us to fight at the edges and take extra-parliamentary action and all the rest of it—and what’s wrong with that?—but let us not give the impression that Margaret Thatcher was different or that she was cool with everybody. She had an agenda the moment she got in—she actually got in on my birthday.

[Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)]

Which one?

[Mr Skinner]

Way back.

[Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

I just want to make the point that Baroness Thatcher is lying just yards from us in her final night in this Palace. Does the hon. Gentleman not think that just on this night, when she is only yards away, in the name of nothing other than good taste, it might be as well that we called this to an end?

[Mr Skinner]

I am just making a statement about the fact that during the course of Margaret Thatcher’s parliamentary time, especially when she was Prime Minister, she was divisive, first, in the sense that she got rid of all the wets so that she could set about her agenda. There is no question at all about that—I know that has nothing to do with Question Time being abandoned, Mr Speaker.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. A moment or two ago the hon. Gentleman was very much on the issue of Prime Minister’s questions and I know that he will wish to return to it.

[Mr Skinner]

I do not need any lectures from Tories about what they did to Mrs Thatcher, because I remember that night and the following day, when she stood at that Dispatch Box. She had not had a night’s sleep and she was making her final speech in Parliament. Why was she making the final speech in Parliament? It was not because the Labour MPs had put a knife in her back. There is no question about that: a succession of Tory MPs had gone to her in the night and said, “I don’t think you should run again for the second ballot.” That is the truth of it. So, whatever I am saying here today does not compare with the fact that a woman who had won three elections in a row then suffered the indignity of being kicked out like a dog in the night by her own Members of Parliament. That is the truth of it, and whatever I say today is minimal compared with that.

Yes, I would like to have Question Time tomorrow, of course, and I have a few questions prepared. Perhaps I should ask the Leader of the House my questions; he might answer them when he winds up. One of them is undoubtedly about getting rid of the bedroom tax. I also want to tell the Prime Minister that it would not be a bad idea to do something about agency workers. There is all this talk about immigration, but the real problem in our society is the fact that a majority of the foreign people who come to this country are now being dictated to by agencies, and it is time we got rid of them. They are undercutting the indigenous workers. I worked with Poles in 1948, down the pit. Why were there no rows? Why did nobody get worked up about the displaced persons—the Poles and the Ukrainians? Because they were in the union with us, and they were paid the same wages. And there wasn’t an agency in sight. So that is another question that we could have put tomorrow.

We could also have put a question about doing something, now that the country is skint, like we did in 1945—

[Alec Shelbrooke]

Who caused the skint?

[Mr Skinner]

It was caused by that great economic tsunami that swept across the world—[Interruption.] And why did it sweep across the world? Because in 1989, in one of her last acts, Mrs Thatcher talked about the brave casino economy, the big bang in the City and deregulation. That was the moment it began. We never knew when it would turn into a recession, but we knew that somehow or other, that society of instant gratification would cause a recession at some time. That is how it all began.

It was just like that with the share-owning democracy. We could have discussed that tomorrow. Mrs Thatcher, that non-divisive character, sold off all the public utilities. She said, “We’ll sell off all the public utilities—gas, electricity and all the rest—and everybody will have shares. You can buy them off Sid and you’ll be able to be part of that great British share-owning democracy.” What happened to that? What happened to the share-owning democracy? EDF is now owned by French electricity; E.ON is owned by Germans; Scottish Power is owned by Spain’s Iberdrola; and npower is owned by the German company RWE. Anglian Water has gone to Canada, and Thames Water is owned by the Germans—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am trying to help the hon. Gentleman. He is absolutely in order, and it is relevant to the motion if he refers to matters that he would raise if there were a question session. In other words, he can raise the questions, but it is not in order for him also to provide the answers.

[Mr Skinner]

So who owns Orange and T-mobile? Have a guess. France and Germany! Who owns Cellnet and O2? Spain! Who owns Arriva buses? The German Deutsche Bank!

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s diatribe, and to his list of privatised utilities. May I suggest that he gets a new researcher? EDF stands for Électricité de France and it has been French for as long as it has existed. Please will he get a new researcher, to put him out of his misery as well as ours?

[Mr Skinner]

Yes, the hon. Gentleman has made his own case. Gatwick is owned by South Korea; Cadbury’s is owned by the United States; the M6 toll is owned by Australia’s Macquarie bank—on and on it goes. We could, then, talk about bringing the public utilities back into public ownership.

The whole concept of Thatcher was to divide and rule. She was also the one who said that “There is no such thing as society”—

[Alec Shelbrooke]

Keep going, keep going.

[Mr Skinner]

Yes, I know the hon. Gentleman likes it. That is why he is a thorn in the side of the leader of the Tory party now. I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman is falling out with him.

What I am saying is that it is important to remember that the people out there know where Thatcher stood. They have not forgotten it. I am talking about those communities where shipbuilding was destroyed in the early ’80s and where the steel industry at Corby and various other places was smashed when Thatcher brought in MacGregor, then brought him back, paying a £1.5 million transfer fee to Lazard’s bank for him to shut, it were said, about 20 or 30 pits. What happened in practice? We had 150 pits at the end of 1985 pit strike, and by the time Thatcher went, there were only 30 left. That is why people out there are angry, and why they demand of us—at least a few of us—to speak the truth on their behalf. That is why I am all in favour of Question Time because I have a list of questions I would like to ask the Prime Minister every single week.

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me the chance to talk about this issue. It is not about personalities; it is all about class. We must never forget that. We should remember where we come from. I remember my own family—with nine kids, who did not have two ha’pennies to rub together—and that is still embedded in my soul. That is why I speak as I do. I do not want to change; I never will. That will not get my hands on the Dispatch Box, but that is not a luxury that it has ever bothered me to get. It is important to remember that these words of mine do not come out of my mouth because of envy or greed, but because I believe that we have to look after those people who do not have two ha’pennies to rub together. That should be what motivates us every day of the week, including at Prime Minister’s Question Time. When the Labour party understands that as we do here today, it will be better for it. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Business of the House

Dennis Skinner Excerpts

Thursday 7th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

The High Court’s decision on the failure to disclose the sub-scores of the Kennedy scoring system was announced only this morning, but the judge has not made a further decision on the implications for the review itself or on the order she might make in that regard. I reiterate to my hon. Friend that it would be premature for Ministers to make a statement. Indeed, it is not for Ministers to make a decision in the first instance, as this is an independent review conducted by primary care trusts. They should decide how to proceed once the court has made its decision.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Twice the Leader of the House has given sympathy to those people at Daw Mill colliery who have lost their jobs. UK Coal owns other mines—not many, but they are still in business—and it may fold up completely as a result of the Daw Mill closure. It is one of the main employers left in the coal-mining industry. Do the Leader of the House and this Government want to be in power when the remaining part of the coal industry in England is closed down?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that the closure at Daw Mill is the result of the catastrophic fire. I reiterate to him and the House that Ministers are in direct contact with UK Coal. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), met UK Coal on Monday and is co-ordinating a cross-Government response. Some 1,300 people are employed at UK Coal’s other sites, Thorseby and Kellingley, and the company believe that they remain viable operations. On that basis, it does them no good to speculate in a damaging way about the viability of those operations.

Business of the House

Dennis Skinner Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

The House will have noted that I announced in the provisional business for the week after next the Second Reading of the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill, which will allow hon. Members an opportunity to debate the issues my hon. Friend raises. In addition, the shadow Chancellor, who was the City Minister responsible at the time of a banking collapse, will perhaps have the opportunity to explain and apologise to the people of this country.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement to be made by the appropriate Minister on the scandalous treatment by Tesco of more than 400 workers in a high-unemployment area in Bolsover? Tesco is transferring those workers 170 miles down south, which is a complete contradiction of the regional policy of sending jobs up to the north. Tesco has been there for only a few years. Will the Leader of the House ensure that all the assistance that Tesco got to set up its distribution factory—all the money it received from development agencies, Europe, central Government and local government—is paid back? Does he agree that that scandalous treatment shows that Tesco stinks worse than the horsemeat it has been selling?

[Mr Lansley]

The commercial decisions of Tesco are not a matter for me. My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) is in his place. I am sure that he, like the hon. Gentleman, has issues to raise regarding the decisions that Tesco has made. However, they are commercial matters for the companies concerned.

Business of the House

Dennis Skinner Excerpts

Thursday 17th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

My hon. Friend is a member of the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, and he will know that on Tuesday morning there is a meeting between SCIPSA and IPSA—I am sorry about all these initials—where he will have an opportunity to put to the chairman of IPSA the question he has put to me. The chairman of IPSA will now have notice of what is coming and will have in his breast pocket the answer to the question, with specific details of when his board last met.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Whatever happened to the Tory announcement of the school building programme? Several months ago, the Secretary of State for Education, in an answer to me about Tibshelf school in my constituency, said that the statement would be made and that Tibshelf would almost certainly be one of the schools selected. Several months have passed and nothing has happened. Is this programme in the long grass with the equality programme, care of the elderly, building houses, the green deal, and all the rest of it?

[Sir George Young]

We intend to announce this month which schools will be rebuilt through the priority school building programme. It has been necessary to make specific checks, with site visits, on the condition of all the schools that applied, and we want to get it right. An announcement will be made shortly, and the first schools that are rebuilt through this programme will open as scheduled in 2014.

Business of the House

Dennis Skinner Excerpts

Thursday 23rd February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

My right hon. Friend may have an opportunity in the Budget debate to intervene along those lines with his radical suggestions for a fresh approach to RBS.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

The Leader of the House may be aware that I have twice raised the issue of wind farms being built in close proximity to people’s homes. In Scotland there is a rule about how close wind farms can be to homes, but the Department I have raised the matter with has refused on both occasions to think about that. If wind farms are so perfect, why are there none in the backyards of the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government? As a bonus, why are there not half a dozen at Highgrove?

[Sir George Young]

The hon. Gentleman is right that, as the Localism Bill went through Parliament, the Government resisted an embargo on wind farm development within a certain distance from residential units, and we have resisted it subsequently. I will raise his concerns with the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. Whether to approve applications for wind farms at the exciting locations the hon. Gentleman mentions is a matter for the local authorities. I am sure that they would take on board the support for them that he has just enunciated.

Business of the House

Dennis Skinner Excerpts

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I understand my hon. Friend’s concern. It sounds as though that decision was reached under the existing rules on Traveller sites. Our view is that the rules are not fit for purpose, so we are consulting on an alternative set of proposals. The consultation closes on 6 July, and I am sure that my hon. Friend will respond to it. I cannot promise her a debate on the subject she raises, but the Localism Bill is now in another place, where there might be an opportunity to debate proposals on Traveller sites.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Is the Leader of the House aware that hundreds of Derbyshire constituents are up in arms at the prospect of there not being an oral statement about the railway contract that went to Siemens in Germany, rather than to Bombardier in Derby? Why are this Government not acting like the Government in Germany, where about 90% of the contracts stay in Germany? About 100% of such contracts stay in France. And do not tell me it is because of what the last Government did; this Government are supposed to be doing something else. I never voted for the free movement of capital and labour, unlike the Leader of the House and thousands of others. Stop rolling over to the EU!

[Sir George Young]

I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was in Transport questions a few moments ago when that subject was raised.

[Mr Skinner]

I was. I tried to get in.

[Sir George Young]

If he was listening, he would have heard that the terms of the tender were set by the Government who, from time to time, he supported. His point about Ministers not being able to defend the proposition is wholly untrue; we defended it a few moments ago.