Oral Answers to Questions

Gerald Kaufman Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

My hon. Friend will have spoken for a great many people in the country and in Gibraltar. We are in favour of talks with Spain. Chief Minister Picardo visited London last week and had discussions with me and the Prime Minister and, as the Chief Minister set out in his statement, we confirmed the position we took in April last year to propose ad hoc dialogue with Spain. My hon. Friend is right: Gibraltar is British and wants to stay British, and for us that is the end of the matter. We will never negotiate over sovereignty over the heads of the people of Gibraltar, as the previous Labour Government did.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman make it absolutely clear to the Spanish Government that Gibraltar is British and will remain British as long as the people of Gibraltar wish to remain British, as demonstrated in an overwhelming vote in a referendum the invigilation of which I led? Will he make it clear to the Spanish Government that harassment at the border and intrusion into British sovereign waters will not be tolerated and that, if need be, there will be reprisals?

[Mr Hague]

I absolutely will. I welcome everything that the right hon. Gentleman has just said and I think that that message should resound clearly from both sides of this House—his question means that it does so.

Middle East and North Africa

Gerald Kaufman Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

My hon. Friend may find that most Ministers are elsewhere tomorrow, so I am unable to say what most of them will do, but the Government have made their position clear, and the House is able to make its position clear as well. The Government having already done so, we do not see the need to vote for—or, in this case, against—a motion of that kind.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the continual, covert and creeping redefinition of borders by the Israelis, whereby, for example, one family are allowed to live in their house because the house is defined as being in the west bank, but not to use the balcony because it is defined as being in Jerusalem, while another family are allowed to live in their house, but not to use the toilet because the toilet is defined as being not in the west bank but in Jerusalem? Does he agree that this continual, tyrannical oppression, which makes people’s daily lives an utter misery, is not conducive to any kind of peace negotiations that will result in freedom for the Palestinians and a secure Israel?

[Mr Hague]

It is the advance of settlements on occupied land that makes the return to negotiations in the middle east peace process so urgent. Those settlements are illegal, as well as creating many anomalies, including the kind that the right hon. Gentleman describes. On my recent visit to the west bank, I visited families whose homes had been demolished. I went to see the E1 area, which is of enormous importance in determining whether a viable, contiguous Palestinian state can be created. I think our views in this House on this issue are well expressed, and that is how we have also expressed them at the United Nations Security Council, which underlines the urgency of getting both parties into negotiations.

Oral Answers to Questions

Gerald Kaufman Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

It will be important for EU nations, including us, and for Arab nations to give careful and well-calibrated support to the American efforts. I have already been discussing that with Secretary Kerry. We need to allow time and space for this American effort to develop as President Obama visits the region later in the month, but I believe that it will important for us to be able to say in concrete terms, at crucial stages of any negotiations that may develop, what we will do to support the process and to incentivise the parties involved. Of course, it may also be open to us to disincentivise—if I may use that word—those parties at crucial moments.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

In the context of conditions for peace, the right hon. Gentleman may not be aware that last Saturday, in Palestine, I visited the mothers and surviving family members—for some have been killed by the Israelis—of Ayman Ismail, who is being held in administrative detention and has been on hunger strike for 246 days, and of Samer Issawi, who is being held on trumped-up charges after being tried twice, once by a civil court which said that he should be released tomorrow and once by a military court which is holding him for 20 years, He has been on hunger strike for 223 days, and is in a critical condition. Will the right hon. Gentleman make clear to Netanyahu that if these men die, their blood will be on his hands?

[Mr Hague]

I think we can be absolutely clear that it is important for justice to be properly done and human rights to be observed on all occasions, for a justice system to be properly upheld, and for problems that have arisen in relation to hunger strikes—of which we have seen many in recent times—to be dealt with through successful talks between the Israeli authorities and those concerned whenever possible. We have urged that. There have been such successful talks in the past, and I hope that the same can happen in this case.

Oral Answers to Questions

Gerald Kaufman Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

This raises our whole approach to the middle east peace process. As other right hon. and hon. Members have quoted in the past half hour, I attach enormous importance to this in the year 2013, particularly as there will be a new or re-elected Israeli Government, and with the US Administration beginning their second term. If we do not make progress in the coming year, people will increasingly conclude that a two-state solution has become impossible.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that last week Israeli soldiers murdered four innocent Palestinians on the west bank, including a 17-year-old boy? Taking that into account, along with the fact that Netanyahu said this week that, if re-elected, he will not negotiate on the 1967 borders, what specific action will the Government take to get the Israelis to see that their future survival depends on a two-state solution?

[Mr Hague]

We will of course continue to put that case very strongly. It is very much in the long-term strategic interests of Israel and peace in the whole region to embrace a two-state solution, because all the alternatives will be more problematic, particularly for the Israelis. I think that many people in Israel strongly hold that view—clearly, views in Israel are divided—and it is certainly our view and that of almost all other nations of the world. The role of the United States will be crucial, which is why that will be top of my agenda when I visit Washington next week.

Oral Answers to Questions

Gerald Kaufman Excerpts

Tuesday 4th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

I am grateful to my right hon. and learned Friend. He is right: last week the Government persuaded colleagues in the European Union that rather than roll over all sanctions on Syria for 12 months, including the arms embargo, we should do so for three months to allow ourselves flexibility to respond to a changing situation. As he knows, I do not follow him all the way in saying that we should supply air defence equipment, although opposition groups in Syria are clearly acquiring a variety of anti-aircraft weapons. The Government will be intensifying further not only our humanitarian assistance but our diplomatic efforts—including with Russia—to try to find a way forward on Syria.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

Is not the building of additional illegal settlements, in addition to settlements that already house 500,000 people, a blatant breach of international law, together with the theft by the Israeli Government of huge sums of tax revenues belonging to the Palestinians? When will we take action such as economic sanctions or an arms embargo against this rogue state that is committing criminal acts?

[Mr Hague]

The settlements are illegal and on occupied land, and the latest announcement undermines Israel’s international reputation and creates doubts about its stated commitment to achieving peace with the Palestinians. The Government have, of course, strongly advised Israel to reverse that decision. I spoke to the Israeli Foreign and Defence Ministers over the weekend, in addition to what the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire, has done. We must remember, however, the point made by the hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin): only successful negotiation will resolve this issue, and that will require the willing participation of Israel as well as the Palestinians.

Palestinian Resolution (United Nations)

Gerald Kaufman Excerpts

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

I think that we do not have very long and that is why urgency has been expressed across the House. The pace of settlement building is steadily reducing the time available for a two-state solution, as has the sheer time that has been exhausted over so many years of trying to bring it about. Although I would not count the time in months, we do not have many years. We might have only one or two years to bring this about, hence the urgency of restarting negotiations.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

So the right hon. Gentleman offers President Abbas all support short of actual support. May I warn him, just as I warned Yitzhak Rabin when he was Prime Minister of Israel? I said to him personally in conversation that if he failed to give validity to Fatah, all that would be left would be Hamas. Mr Rabin shook hands with Arafat on the White House lawn; the right hon. Gentleman sits on his hands.

[Mr Hague]

I do not think that that is what the Palestinians would think after all the discussions we have had with them over the past few days. Of course, I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman on that point. Support takes many forms and our strong support for the Palestinian Authority as well as the huge financial and other support we give are maintained and much appreciated by the leaders of the Palestinian Authority. Of course there are disagreements about our vote tomorrow, but I hope that no one in the House will pretend that we do not have good relations with and support for people, particularly those of a moderate persuasion, in the Palestinian Authority. There is no doubt that we have such relations and that they continue.

Middle East

Gerald Kaufman Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

I have heard that, but I hesitate to confirm the actual fact definitively. Certainly the Israelis explained that, rather than targeting a media centre, they were targeting a different organisation. We have also been in touch with the media organisations concerned. I very much take my hon. Friend’s point.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

Is it not interesting that when Assad lethally represses the Syrian people, he is the bad guy, yet when Netanyahu lethally represses the Palestinian people, he is the goodbye—[Interruption.] I mean the good guy—I wish it was goodbye! Also, when the Syrians respond with brutal force to that repression, they are the good guys, yet when Palestinians respond with brutal force to that repression, they are the bad guys. It is this kind of discriminatory attitude by the international community that will prevent there being peace in the middle east.

Oral Answers to Questions

Gerald Kaufman Excerpts

Tuesday 4th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

Those efforts have been redoubled in recent times in many ways, and my hon. Friend will be aware that, with our partners in the European Union and many other partners and allies around the world, we have imposed more serious economic sanctions on Iran than we have imposed on any country in recent times. This has caused Iranian oil exports to fall by about 1 million barrels a day from last year. Iran is losing almost $8 billion in revenues every quarter as a result of that, and we will continue to intensify the pressure from sanctions, as well as remain open to negotiations, in order to try to resolve this issue. In the longer term, we take nothing off the table in our efforts to resolve the issue.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

Has the right hon. Gentleman read the article by David Remnick in the current issue of The New Yorker? He has just returned from Israel, where he discussed this issue with all the top figures in Israeli intelligence, every single one of whom is opposed to Israeli military action against Iran. Vile though the regime in Iran is, and while it is proper for the right hon. Gentleman to be taking the action he is, will he make it clear to Israel and everybody else that we are totally opposed to military action against Iran?

[Mr Hague]

I have not seen the article in question; I will be very pleased to have a look at it. Certainly, there is a variety of views in Israel about the merits of military action at any time. We have been very clear to Israeli leaders—the Prime Minister and I have been clear in our recent meetings with Israeli leaders—that the policy we favour and are pursuing is the twin-track policy of sanctions and negotiations. We have been very clear that under those circumstances, we oppose a military strike on Iran.

Falkland Islands Referendum

Gerald Kaufman Excerpts

Wednesday 13th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

We shall certainly do so. It is a cause of sadness that, in an age in which democracy and human rights are part of the standard political culture in south America, the right to self-determination for the Falkland Islanders should be determinedly ignored by the Government of Argentina. We hope that they will listen and take proper account of the democratic wishes of the people of the Falklands.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the whole House is united in support of the right of the people of the Falkland Islands to remain British as long as they wish to do so, and will he make it clear to the predatory idiots in Buenos Aires that any aggressive act, whether military, diplomatic or trading, will be met by similar measures from this country? He referred to best practice in referendums, and may I remind him that not long ago, the people of Gibraltar held such a referendum? I led the supervisory team to make sure that it was totally valid, which it was. Will he tell the Spaniards to lay off Gibraltar?

North Africa and the Near and Middle East

Gerald Kaufman Excerpts

Monday 28th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

My hon. Friend was, I think, the first Member of Parliament to visit Mauritania in a long time, and he is right to bring attention to that issue. On my visit, we were discussing regional security issues however, so we did not get into the detail of the fishing arrangements, but of course we want them to be resolved to the satisfaction of the countries in the region.

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

On the Western Sahara, are there any developments at all in respect of the referendum? It was a long time ago when I was shadow Foreign Secretary and went to the Western Sahara and the camps in the Algerian desert, but even then the referendum was regarded as the solution. That was a long time ago, so this is a long time to wait for a democratic vote.

[Mr Hague]

Yes, it is a long time. The problem has been almost identical ever since when the right hon. Gentleman was shadow Foreign Secretary, so this certainly counts as a long-standing problem in world affairs, as I said. The sad news is that there has not been progress on this issue, but there are repeated and continued international efforts to make progress. I referred to the diplomatic work that is going on, and there will be further discussions on this matter over the coming months, but I do not have any better news to pass on than the right hon. Gentleman will remember from the time when he was dealing with this issue in more detail.

I was talking about the influence of al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb—AQIM. It is increasing its influence throughout the region. Operating largely from northern Mali, it presents an increased threat to our security. Last Friday, a group of visitors to Timbuktu was kidnapped. I want to stress to British nationals that they should carefully note our travel advice, which advises against all travel to most of Niger, Mauritania and Mali, including Timbuktu. AQIM is known to have established contact with Boko Haram, an Islamic terrorist group operating in Nigeria, contributing to the growing strength and ambition of that group in recent months and extending AQIM’s reach into northern Nigeria. We are stepping up our efforts to counter terrorism in the Sahel region and to support economic and political development. We are co-funding a military and police base on the Mali-Algeria border, as well as emergency planning training in Mali and Niger. We are also working closely with Nigeria to combat the threat of terrorism, following the Prime Minister’s visit in July.

We are also working with France and other European allies to develop an effective EU approach to security and development in the Sahel. Plans are at an early stage for a small, focused and carefully calibrated common security and defence policy mission in the region, focusing on policing, security, infrastructure development and regional training. Funding for this mission would come from the common foreign and security policy part of the EU budget. As we already contribute to that budget, this mission will place no additional resource burden upon us, save for minimal costs associated with the deployment of any British personnel. Once we have an agreed outline of this mission, we will submit it to parliamentary scrutiny. The mission is necessary to safeguard our own national security and to help countries in the region.

Instability in the Sahel could have a profoundly destabilising effect on countries in north Africa and the Gulf that are currently engaged in moves to open up their political and economic systems to different degrees. That was particularly apparent on my visit to Algeria in October. Important steps there to lift broadcast media restrictions and reform the electoral system take place against a backdrop of military confrontation with al-Qaeda. As the House understands, the politics and history of each country in the wider middle east are very different. But the contrasting experiences of those Governments beginning peaceful reform now and of regimes such as those in Syria and Iran that have set their face against reform altogether show that moves towards greater political and economic openness are essential for their long-term security and prosperity, as well as being right in themselves. So we welcome the recent elections in Tunisia, and the efforts under way to form a Government who reflect the will of the Tunisian people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)]

Earlier this year, I was in Tunisia, where, in addition to having talks with members of the temporary Government who were in office before the country’s election, I spoke to business men and visited tourist sites. I was very troubled by the fact that those tourist sites were empty. It was understandable that after the upheaval in Tunisia people might have been wary about going there and doubtful about their own safety. On the other hand, if there was a velvet revolution anywhere in the Arab spring, it was in Tunisia, with one poor man dying because he had been insulted and then no more deaths. It is important for us to make it clear to the people of this country, a considerable number of whom have habitually visited Tunisia and seen its beautiful sights—not only the holiday areas but places such as Carthage—that it is safe to go there, good to go there, and good for democracy in north Africa to be there.

The hon. Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) referred to Libya. Of course, she is right to say that it is not for us to impose our concept of democracy on Libya. It is a fact, however, that there would not have been a change of Government in Libya without the action of NATO. That being so, we have a right to communicate our views—the views of that community—to the people who will be governing Libya. I hope that the Government will make it clear to those who are in office in Libya at this time that, while it is right and proper that Saif Gaddafi should be tried, it would go against everything that we have been supporting in Libya if he were executed.

One of the great failings of the Labour Government was that they did not make their voice heard when the Iraqis moved to execute Saddam Hussein. He was an evil dictator, and the Gaddafi family were a family of evil dictators, but the whole point about liberating people from dictators is that one does not behave in the way the dictators behaved towards their enemies. I know that this Government have a strong policy of opposing capital punishment wherever it is carried out or planned. I hope that they will make it clear to those in authority that turning a new page for Libya means getting rid of primitive and savage punishment in Libya.

In talking about what NATO has done to the benefit of the people of Libya, it is important to draw to the attention of the House where NATO has gone wrong and where it has run amok. What has been taking place in Pakistan over the past few days is an abomination. Pakistan is an independent country and an ally. A great many people of Pakistani origin live in this country and take part in our democracy. Its independence was violated by NATO going in and killing 24 people and injuring a great many more. That was a violation of Pakistani independence and sovereignty.

That was not the first time that such a thing had happened. It happened when the Americans sent their navy SEAL mission to kill bin Laden. Again, he was an evil man who had done dreadful things. However, the whole point of our being what we are is that we do not do what vile terrorists do. An article in The New Yorker not long ago told, move by move, how the SEALs went in. They did not have a fight with bin Laden, but simply went in to kill him, with the President of the United States and the American Secretary of State watching it all on television. That struck me as one of the most odious manifestations of the kind of Administration that the United States now has.

When George W. Bush was President of the United States, I expected it to behave in a way that was odious. We were dragged by Bush not only into the Iraqi war, but into the unplanned, chaotic aftermath of that war. The sanctimony of Barak Obama led us to believe that he would not get involved in the same kind of thing. However, Guantanamo Bay remains open three years after the man was elected President. We must have a British and European foreign policy, and not simply be dragged behind the American Administration, whatever it is that they do, as unfortunately the Labour Government were from time to time. We have just had another example of that with the attempt by the United States Administration to water down international regulations on the use of cluster bombs, which are used by the Israelis in their attacks on the Palestinians and which were used in Gaza in Operation Cast Lead.

I do not know whether Obama believes that he can get re-elected by behaving like the Tea party, but we must not behave like the Tea party. We must behave like a British democracy. I find many aspects of this Government’s foreign policy attractive and it is possible to support them. In listening to the Foreign Secretary and hearing about the kind of things that have been taking place, I hope that we will not permit this extremism from across the Atlantic to motivate and dominate our policies.

Another example, which has been referred to by many hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), is the situation with regard to Iran. Iran has an odious regime internally, which stones what it calls adulterous women to death, which stones homosexuals to death, and which tortures and imprisons. It is one of the most unpleasant regimes not simply in the region, but on the planet. On the other hand, although it would of course be a matter of profound concern if Iran acquired a nuclear weapons capability, as many hon. Members on both sides of the House have said, and although Iran undermines many regimes, as we have heard this evening, it has never carried out an outright attack on another country. Indeed, it was the victim of an attack by Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.

In the region, there is a country with a large nuclear stockpile: Israel. It has not only a huge nuclear capability, but nuclear missiles, which were based originally in Dimona in the Negev. Israel has a record of invading other countries. It invaded Lebanon several times. We do nothing whatever about that.

I agree with hon. Members about how important it is to take action and to deter Tehran from acquiring a nuclear weapons capability. However, if military action were taken against Iran, the consequences would be incalculable. One of the great rules of action, whether in internal or overseas policy, is that we should not do something the consequences of which we cannot calculate before we do it. It is impossible to know how dreadful the consequence might be of military action against Iran. The Americans will not do it because Obama does not want another war in the less than a year before he faces the electorate again, but he might well want others to do it. Netanyahu, Lieberman and Barak have their own objectives based on the precarious nature of their Government in Israel. It is important for us to make it clear to the Israelis how strongly we would be opposed to their taking any military action against Iran.

The situation between the Israelis and the Palestinians gets worse day by day. I have spoken with some commendation of Foreign Office policy, but I was very sorry that the Government veered away from voting for Palestinian membership of UNESCO, and I am concerned that they intend to abstain when, eventually, the Security Council votes on the Palestinian application for UN membership. By abstaining, we will get no thanks from Obama and the United States, who want us to vote against, and at the same time it will give us no leverage whatever with the Israelis.

Today the Foreign Secretary, as he does whenever he talks about these things, advocated peace negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians, and set out yet again the parameters for the outcome of those negotiations. However, the prospect of such negotiations is nil, because the Palestinians will not sit down with an Israeli Government who are constantly expanding settlements, and I do not blame them for that. There are thousands and thousands of settlements. Other hon. Members, like me, have been there and seen not only the expansion of the settlements but the way in which settlers move into a Palestinian’s house in a Palestinian area of Jerusalem, live there and force people out of the house, with the support of the Israeli police. Can one be surprised that Palestinians do not want to sit down with people who do that to them and get away with it both internally and internationally?

The checkpoints continue to impede movement, and as I have seen and other hon. Members will no doubt have seen, the illegal wall—as illegal as the settlements are—keeps olive cultivators away from their groves. A grove that is five minutes away by foot is hours away, if it can be got to at all, because of the wall. Does one really expect the Palestinians to accept that and sit down with the people who are doing that to them?

Now, the latest development, the Israeli punishment of the Palestinians for having applied for membership of the UN and achieved membership of UNESCO, is that the Israeli Government are illegally withholding £63 million of tax revenues from the Palestinians. That will affect tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of jobs of Palestinians working in the public sector, but what happens? Hillary Clinton gets on the phone to Netanyahu, and Netanyahu basically tells her to get lost. The Americans could have their will with the Israelis whenever they wanted to, as George Bush senior did when the Israeli Government refused to go to Madrid for talks, but they do not. They whimper. Tony Blair has complained about the tax revenues being stolen by the Israelis from the Palestinians, but nothing happens.

What is more, the Israelis have refused to stop planting land mines, which the House united in opposing. They are now saying that they will do something even nastier to the Palestinians if the talks between Fatah and Hamas provide a unity Government. Hamas is a dreadful organisation, yes, but it is there, and it won an election democratically. There was international invigilation showing that it was a democratic election. It had a more valid election result than George W. Bush’s first one.

If there is to be a united Palestine, it is absolutely essential that those parties get together. Otherwise, there will be at best an independent west bank with Gaza separate from it, and nobody else will take in Gaza. When I had a talk with Mubarak about Gaza and asked him whether, because of its physical separation from the west bank, it would make more sense for Egypt to incorporate Gaza, he said, “I wouldn’t have Gaza in my territory for $5 million.” The only way in which the Gaza problem can be solved is a Palestinian unity Government, and we should want to foster the unity of Fatah and Hamas, not oppose it.

I was interviewed by a bizarre Israeli television interviewer last week, who said to me, “At least you’ve got to agree that Israel is a democracy.” But that democracy is being impaired the whole time. The Knesset has passed legislation limiting freedom of speech, and it has just passed legislation that forbids overseas Governments from providing finance to the NGOs, many of which would not be able to function without that finance. I pay tribute to the Department for International Development for what it does with the NGOs. If there is a shining example of what this Government are achieving, it is the work of that Department, but its efforts are being hampered by the way in which the Israelis are conducting themselves—against international law.

I would love to go along with what the Foreign Secretary said—which the Minister will no doubt repeat—about how hard we are working to get talks going, because in the end, talks are the only way in which this will be solved. But there will be no peace in the region—in all that turbulent region—until the justified aspirations of the Palestinians are fulfilled.