Western Balkans

Debate between Gregory Campbell and Lord Randall of Uxbridge

Wednesday 10th September 2014 Westminster Hall

[Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con)]

It is a delight, Mrs Brooke, to see you in the Chair today. Coming back to Committee Room 10 reminds me of a few years ago, when I raised this same subject in a Westminster Hall debate. At that time, we were also in this room. The then Minister for Europe was one Geoff Hoon. Some of the themes have moved on since then, but I will return to others. It is also a delight to see the Minister. I know that this subject is not his area of expertise—the Minister for Europe is busy elsewhere—but as we are former colleagues at the Whips Office, he will remember my discussions on various subjects, which included the region we are talking about.

Almost exactly 40 years ago, I started at London university studying Serbo-Croat language and literature, and so started my knowledge of and relationship with the region. Today reminds me a little of my student days, because, due to a whole load of work that has come in my constituency in the past couple of days, I have not prepared my essay properly. As so often in the past, I will try to wing it by bluffing my way through. After 40 years, I think I have a reasonable amount of knowledge, but I have no set speech. I would have loved to have given the Minister an advance copy, but no such copy exists. Anyway—here we go.

The current fashion is for people to have a bucket list of things they want to do. For me, it is a list of things I want to get off my chest before I stand down from Parliament at the next general election. The western Balkans is an area that I feel strongly about, because it is of great interest and great importance to the European situation. As we know, it was, sadly, one of the biggest problems in Europe during the latter half of the 20th century.

History in the Balkan area is very important. Here we are, 100 years after the start of the first world war—and we know that the trigger for that was the assassination in Sarajevo of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip. Interestingly, even now that history has an impact; a lot of people are almost trying to rewrite history or analyse it. The Serbs feel that there is almost an attempt to rewrite it as a Serbian movement when, in fact, Gavrilo Princip was a member of the Young Bosnia, or Mlada Bosna, movement. Members of his team—it was not a very experienced team—included a Bosnian Muslim and others, so it was not just a Serbian thing.

We have to be careful when we remember such events. In fact, there are echoes today, because all through what was then the Austro-Hungarian empire were groups of young people—mostly men and often students—who were dissatisfied and frustrated with the system. They resorted to violence, and we can see where else that is happening in the world.

Next year marks an important year in Serbian history. I will not confine my comments to Serbia; I am just starting off with it. In 1915, the Serbian nation retreated. It did quite well initially against the forces of the Austro-Hungarian empire, but it was beaten back. Bulgaria joined the war and there was a pincer movement, so the Serbs had to retreat. They did not want to be occupied, so the Serbian army, the Serbian Parliament, the Serbian King and the church—they even dug up some of their saints—moved in the middle of winter across the Albanian mountains and went on eventually, with massive sacrifice and massive numbers of deaths, to Corfu. There the British and French reclothed them and so forth and helped get them back to the Salonika front, where they fought their way up.

That was an important moment in Serbian history. It is interesting, in the context of the Balkans, that the Albanians allowed the Serbian army to come through and said that it must be unhindered. Although we sometimes hear of the rivalries today—I say “rivalries”, but they obviously go past that in some respects—these things are not always as deep-seated as people think.

I have a particular interest in this issue and, as Members will know, I am a natural retailer, so I should mention that I am helping with a play. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is also helping with it. The play, which will tour in the UK and Serbia, is about a British nurse called Flora Sandes, who went out as a nurse and ended up serving in the Serbian army. She was the only British woman who served on the front line as a woman, although there might have been some who disguised themselves.

The play will be about Flora, but also about a Serbian woman called Milunka Savic, and there will be a comparison between the two. Milunka is fascinating, because she was one of the top throwers of grenades. I do not know whether she would be called a grenadier or a bomber. The reason for her skill was that she was a shepherd. She was so used to throwing stones to frighten away wolves and things, she could pinpoint grenades with remarkable accuracy. She was one of the top marksmen with grenades.

The play is coming up, and one reason why I mention it is that it is important to realise the historical link between our nation and the Serbs in that period. We were great allies, and that has continued, except for the latter half of the 20th century and the particular period when we had the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia. Despite that recent history, the Serbian national view is that they want to renew that alliance with Britain, and that is something we can do in encouraging their EU aspirations.

Another point on the Salonika front is that I recently went to an exhibition at the School of Oriental and African Studies, which was just next to my old college, the School of Slavonic and East European Studies. There was an exhibition on Sikhs in the Indian army in the first world war and the large number of Muslims who fought for the British—it was the British Indian army—on the Salonika front. Many of them lost their lives. We should highlight that the divides between nations and religions and everything else are not clear-cut. Sometimes, things are polarised in today’s world.

Obviously, the history of close co-operation carried on into the second world war. History must always be in our minds in the Balkan region. I am delighted to see two hon. Members from Northern Ireland here. That region is another example of where we should never forget history, but that does not mean we have to be a slave to it. Northern Ireland is a good example of how we can move on. Some of these regions with divides in their communities can learn from the example of Northern Ireland, and that is why I am particularly delighted to see the two hon. Members.

The history is deeply rooted and for the Serbs it goes back a long way—to the mediaeval period. We all know about Kosovo and all that. There is a sense of being a victim, which was further accentuated in the last part of the 20th century. We must also be aware of some of the terrible things that occurred in Europe in the latter half of the 20th century. Srebrenica, for example, is probably the most obvious and highlighted of the appalling things that happened. I do not think that I will have time during the remainder of my parliamentary career to visit the area, but I hope to be able to, because one has to understand exactly what went on.

Other things went on, however, and one side was certainly not responsible for them all. There are no definite goodies and baddies in such situations; there are lots of both. I recently discovered that the Special Investigative Task Force under lead prosecutor John Clint Williamson has been examining the claims of atrocities—I should perhaps say “alleged atrocities”, but I think we have got past that and that he said that there were atrocities—committed in Kosovo by alleged members of the Kosovo Liberation Army. That has gone a long way to helping people in the region realise that it is not only the victors who say that everything was done against them and that investigations will happen for all concerned.

The problem for so much of central and south-eastern Europe—we are seeing it even further east in Ukraine—lies with realising that the countries are not homogeneous. The peoples who live in those countries are from a wide range of ethnic groupings. One village might speak Serbian while the next might speak Slovak. That is what makes the whole thing so complicated and is a common theme when minorities and their rights are being sorted out.

I want to move briefly on to the use of depleted uranium during bombing and the related health consequences, which are always somewhere at the back of Serb minds, and not only theirs. I do not think the issue has been properly investigated. In 1999, there was a report by someone called Bakary Kante from the UN Environment Programme, but I am not sure whether it has been properly published. We must get such things out into the open.

I am no expert on the south-west of England, but I believe that the recent severe flooding did not greatly affect the East Devon constituency of the Minister—I imagine that it was not very good, but it probably was not appalling. However, Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina in particular have experienced extreme flooding. We only heard a little about it, but I was delighted that Britain, as part of a European-wide aid programme, did an awful lot to help. We are possibly victims of not blowing our trumpet and of not letting the Serbs and Bosnians understand how much we sympathise and how much practical help we gave.

There have been many instances throughout the country of individuals and organisations—not national Governments and not even necessarily non-governmental organisations—helping mutually and I found an interesting case the other day. If the Minister for Europe had been here, he would have been particularly interested, because it revolves around his old school. I have discovered that Northwood prep, among other projects around the world including Africa and India through something called the Francis Terry Foundation, has been helping to build kindergartens and play areas in a couple of villages—I think they are villages, but one must be careful—in the Nish area called Toponica and Matejevac. The facilities are allowing people who may otherwise have had to move to the cities, which is a problem in such areas, to have their kids looked after at home. The school has also been visited by the Crown Prince of Serbia and, I think, will be making a trip to a concert in Serbia. That is just one example. An advantage of the internet is that we can link schools and organisations much more easily when compared with the old town-twinning process, which was clunky and involved people going over there and all the related expenses. It is a great way to learn about other peoples.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

The right hon. Gentleman said that he was bluffing his way through his speech, so I commend him, based on the past 15 minutes, on perfecting the art. Does he agree that many UK faith organisations also get involved with offers of help and assistance to the Balkans, particularly through the internet? Given the extent of the deprivation, particularly among young children in some areas, considerable help is being offered, and that should be promoted.

[Sir John Randall]

I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. In fact, some years ago—as I became lost into the Whips Office, some of the dates have passed me by and have been put to one side, like all the memories I have of who did what to whom and when—I remember being closely involved with a faith organisation that was working in several areas of the Balkans. It still does tremendous work, because there is still incredible deprivation among some Roma populations and in some rural areas.

Since being released from the Whips Office, human trafficking and modern slavery have been of great interest to me. In that context, I visited Albania, which was the only country in the region that I had not visited. When I was a student, I would not have been allowed to go to Albania, because I had a beard and in the days of Enver Hoxha that might have made one appear to be an orthodox priest or something, although I am not sure that I resembled such a priest in any other way. However, I was encouraged, because I suppose that I listened over the years to a lot of the propaganda about what was going on in Albania. It is a poor country, but it is making efforts. However, modern slavery and human trafficking must really be considered across the whole region. I say to all those countries that aspire to join the EU, which may be some way off, that that is something on which they can really show leadership by trying to sort it out. Albania is doing what it can, but they all have a long way to go.

Kosovo is obviously probably the thorniest problem in the area, and some countries within the EU still have not recognised an independent Kosovo. The Serbs and the Kosovans have some form of agreement. It will never be far away from becoming a problem, but Baroness Ashton brought people together in a positive move, which should be encouraged. I do not expect an answer today, as this is not the Minister’s area of responsibility, but he could perhaps look into a question for me. When I last visited Kosovo a few years ago, people were still living in containers in some of the enclaves after being displaced from their homes. I am not sure whether that is the current situation, but I was appalled at the time that people in Europe should still be living like that after many years. Perhaps he could look into the matter. Also, some sacred monuments were still having to be guarded by NATO troops, because, even though they are centuries old, they were seen as indicating that Serbian culture had been on that territory, so I would welcome a note at some stage from his colleagues at the Foreign Office on the current situation.

Macedonia, as I am sure people realise, suffers not only from similar problems, but from a problem that I find incredible in today’s world: an EU country is resisting things because it does not think that Macedonia should use the name “Macedonia”. Now that I have raised that in Parliament, I will get e-mails and hate letters from Greek nationalists, as I did the last time that I mentioned it. I remember that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister visited Macedonia when he was an Opposition shadow Minister. When he came back, he wrote an article in The Guardian—one of his favoured organs, I am sure—asking how people in Greece would like to referred to as living in the “former Ottoman province of Greece”.

That such objections go on these days is incredible, but I am aware of the sensitivities. Greece thinks that Macedonia, by having that name, has its sights on territory further down in Thrace and so forth. If we cannot sort out an agreement on a name in the EU, however, our chance of sorting out some of the finer points is a little worrying. Macedonia still has huge problems, not only between the Macedonians and the Macedonian Albanians, but with a large number of other peoples there.

Montenegro I used to know well. Members may know it still, because it has a beautiful coastline, although it is not all coastline; a lot of it is harsh karst scenery and a tough place to live. Montenegro got its independence, but has a huge problem with law and order. It also has a huge problem with smuggling and has a large amount of Russian investment, although perhaps the Russians are moving that to the Crimea at the moment, who knows, because Montenegro has EU aspirations and will be trying to untie slightly the close links that most of the Slavic countries in the area have with Russia. We need to help, because what is going on in Montenegro is a bit of a blot on the whole process.

Serbia I have spoken about, but I will return to it briefly, because I feel that it is moving forward. A lot is still to be done and the British and the EU can encourage the Serbs. We in the UK have a role to play, because of the traditional alliance that we had with them. The more that we can say that is where we are coming from, the better. I am not always simply being charitable; there is a huge opportunity for British trade in the area. Unfortunately, some of the practices in some of those countries do not encourage British trade. In fact, those who are in the diaspora tend to be the pioneers in the area. I commend an organisation, which I know quite well: the Serbian City Club. Young professionals in the UK of Serbian origin are doing an awful lot to encourage people.