Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Helen Jones and Lord Barwell

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Helen Jones]

That is a very fair point. The problem is that instability is being built into the system. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) said that one of the things about local government finance in this country is that it has always been relatively stable and did not have those risks—

[Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)]

indicated dissent.

[Helen Jones]

It is no good the Parliamentary Private Secretary chuntering away—it will have no effect. I spent years dealing with stroppy 15-year-olds on wet Friday afternoons, and he is no different.

Let us really look at this. If the Government are serious when they say, as the Housing Minister did when he spoke to the Communities and Local Government Committee, that councils should not avoid paying those who really need it, then they have to be prepared to meet the unforeseen costs. Why should a person living in a particular authority be penalised simply because a major employer in the area closes down or more pensioners claim? My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East said that it is estimated that only between 57% and 66% of pensioners claim because council tax benefit is classed as a benefit. All those who are experienced in this area say that, once it is seen simply as a reduction in the bill, claims from pensioners are likely to rise. That is a good thing, but the costs have to be met, and it is unreasonable that entitlement for other people should depend on how many pensioners live in their area. They will be penalised because of an increase in council tax, cuts in other services or cuts in benefit to working-age people when the scheme is later revised. It makes no logical sense.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Helen Jones and Lord Barwell

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Helen Jones]

I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way, but I have to say that he is advancing an entirely specious argument. He is comparing growth at a time when the Labour Government were investing hugely in cities such as Liverpool and when the economy was growing with a time when that investment has been mostly withdrawn under this Government and the economy is flatlining. Anyone who seriously thinks we will get the same amount of growth in the next—

[Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)]

It is relative.

[Helen Jones]

No, the Minister quoted the actual growth in business rates. Anyone who thinks we are going to get the same amount of growth in the next few years is living in cloud cuckoo land.