Housing

Debate between Hilary Benn and Baroness Primarolo

Wednesday 8th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

It is no good asking me for a point of order.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

No it is not. You are quite right, Mr Benn. I was just about to call Mr McPartland to make his point of order.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

That is not a point of order. Points of order are not clarifications of debates. The hon. Gentleman can, if he wishes, stand to try to catch my eye, but at the rate we are progressing through this debate he will be lucky if there is any time left, because this debate has to finish at 4 pm and a large number of Members are here. However, I am sure that he will try to pursue his point in other ways.

[Hilary Benn]

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have two other points to make, one of which is about new towns and garden cities. The Government used to be very keen on those at one point, but they seem to have become less enthusiastic. I hope that the Secretary of State will say something about that when he responds, because it is hard to see how we will make progress without those things . We have to incentivise local authorities to come forward, which is why the Lyons commission is going to look at how we can help new towns and garden cities to be established and why a Labour Treasury would use guarantees—the Government are currently using guarantees for Help to Buy—for “help to build” for these new towns.

Finally, we need communities to take responsibility for building new homes. On that I am with the planning Minister, because I believe that neighbourhood planning is the way forward. For too long, we have had a system in which nobody has really taken responsibility for building new homes. Thame in south Oxfordshire provides a good example of the new community plan. If communities feel that the new houses that they give consent to will solve the housing problem in their own neighbourhood, they will be much more likely to give agreement. That is why we need plots for self-build and local allocation policies for social housing, and why we need to give local people first call on having the chance to buy new developments in their area. That will give communities confidence that the homes will meet their need.

The progress so far has not been considerable, but the task is. I do not know whether the Secretary of State in the end believed all his press releases and announcements, I do not know whether he thought that blaming councils would be enough and I do not know whether he was taken in by what I have to describe as the bombast of this Government’s first Housing Minister, who boasted consistently of the Government’s record. The problem is that the Secretary of State’s record speaks all too clearly for itself. Therefore, the country needs a new plan. The public need it because they are the ones paying the price for failure. Homes give us security and a sense of community: they are where we build and raise families; they are places for children to do their homework; and they are good for our health. However, rents are rising twice as fast as wages, house prices are moving out of reach of families, and 5 million people are in the queue for social housing. This country needs something different, and I urge the House to vote for this motion.

Growth and Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Hilary Benn and Baroness Primarolo

Monday 5th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

That is extremely helpful, and we look forward to seeing those documents.

Amid all the centralisation, there are some clauses that seem sensible and that we will support—the Secretary of State smiles—such as those on the energy industry, on removing the anomaly on disposal of land for less than best consideration, on the review of minerals permissions, and on allowing the process for stopping up or diverting highways and public paths to run alongside the planning process— which is perfectly sensible recommendation of the Penfold review. Overall, however, the bad in the Bill far outweighs the good.

That brings me to clause 23, which is an absolutely astonishing proposal. Labour Members are in favour of businesses giving shares to employees and think it a jolly good thing. We do not, however, need the Bill for that because companies are already perfectly free to give shares to their workers. The clause does something completely different, and, for the first time that I can recall, employers will be allowed to buy their way out of legislation that protects their workers. The legislation is explicit and there is a tariff—[Interruption.] I hear the cry of “voluntary”, and we shall come on to whether that is the case.

The fact is that for between £2,000 and £50,000, a company can pay to strip its workers of their rights. That is what the clause does. Never mind cash for questions; this is cash for repeal. What on earth is the connection between giving an employee shares, and taking away their fundamental rights in the workplace? Given the wording of the clause, some might say that such a change could happen only if the company and the individual agreed on it. That, however, is true only for existing employees at the time the legislation comes into force. Their choice will be quite simple: take the cash and lose the rights, or lose the cash and keep the rights. Many of them will ask, “How lucky do I feel today and when I think about the future of the company?”

The Government have made it crystal clear that in future employers will not have to get an agreement and will be able to offer only contracts involving shares. It means that the only way someone will be able to get a job with that company is if they give up their rights—[Interruption.] The Under-Secretary, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford, shouts from a sedentary position that it is a choice, but one feature of this Bill seems to be that those who are sponsoring it have not actually read it.

A Treasury background note published at the same time as the Bill states that

“new start-ups can choose to offer only this new type of contract for new hires.”

The English is a bit dodgy, but I think it refers to new workers whom a company is taking on—[Interruption.] The Under-Secretary says it is a choice, but—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. It is unhelpful in a debate to have Ministers shouting from the Front Bench, and then for their question to be answered when the rest of us are not exactly clear about what is going on. If you wish to make a point, Minister, you should step up to the Dispatch Box; otherwise, I hope that the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) will concentrate on his speech and ignore the heckling.

[Hilary Benn]

I was trying to encourage the Under-Secretary to provide clarity to the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I take your strictures.

If someone wants to take a job but finds that it is offered only on the basis that they give up their employment rights, that is not a choice. If that is all an employer offers to someone who is unemployed and wants to do the right thing and contribute to the economy, that is no choice whatsoever. As for shares, what if the company is not listed on the stock exchange? Who will assess the value of those shares? They could be worthless. Who will buy them? Will they carry voting rights? The Secretary of State said nothing about any those points this afternoon, and the House must ask why holding shares should mean that someone loses the right to protection against unfair dismissal. What is the argument for that?

General matters

Debate between Hilary Benn and Baroness Primarolo

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Have you had any indication that the Business Secretary intends to come to the Chamber this afternoon to make a statement on his policy on News Corporation’s bid to take full control of BSkyB? As you may be aware, it is reported today that the Secretary of State has said that he has

“declared war on Mr Murdoch and I think we are going to win.”

Given that he is acting in a quasi-judicial capacity in considering that takeover, surely he must immediately step aside from any further involvement with that decision. Can you advise us whether you have been notified that either the Business Secretary or, indeed, the Prime Minister intend to come before the House today to confirm that that is what will now happen?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising that point of order, which I think I can deal with quite succinctly. I have not received any notification that the Government are to make any comments, whether from the Business Secretary or anybody else this afternoon, on the matter that the right hon. Gentleman has raised, but I am sure that Government Front Benchers will have heard him.

Business of the House (Thursday)

Debate between Hilary Benn and Baroness Primarolo

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I did not hear any remarks myself, and there is quite a lot of noise in the Chamber, which makes it difficult for all Members of the House to hear. It would be best at this time if we could proceed. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing this matter to my attention, but I do not think that it is a point of order.

[Hilary Benn]

Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was about to give way—

[Robert Flello]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Will you please clarify something for me? Are Government Whips entitled to take part in debate? My understanding is that they are not. If they are not entitled to take part in debate, why is that happening?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

As I understand it, any Member is entitled to speak in a debate in the House. There may be conventions that are normally followed, but remarks, comments or shouting across the Chamber from a sedentary position in order to disrupt the debate are not permitted. I am sure that nobody will do that.

[Hilary Benn]

Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was about to respond to the intervention made by my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham. Yes, many people in the country have watched the video that the Deputy Prime Minister made in which he uttered the pledge. [Interruption.] It has to do with the time because we need to hear from Liberal Democrats—perhaps we will be lucky and hear from the Deputy Prime Minister in tomorrow’s debate, but who knows?—and we need time for an explanation of what exactly happened between the making of that pledge and the U-turn that he has performed in introducing these proposals tonight.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Thank you—[Interruption.] Thank you very much, Mr Brennan. I am eternally grateful. I would like us to focus now on the debate.

[Hilary Benn]

I happen to have a copy of “Erskine May” and am very happy to lend it to my hon. Friend, as long as he gives it back to me, because I intend to quote from it a little later.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve McCabe]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The clock in the Chamber is not working properly. Is that another device to con us out of more hours for debate?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The clock seems to me to be working fine. If the hon. Gentleman has a problem, perhaps he will come to the Chair. I am sure that Members are riveted by the debate and time will fly by.

[Hilary Benn]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing my attention to that clock. I fancied that I had been speaking for slightly longer than four minutes, but who knows?

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

That would not be in order. I therefore suggest that we return to Mr Hilary Benn’s comments from the Dispatch Box.

[Hilary Benn]

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Kevin Brennan]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Will you clarify—this point is pertinent and not hypothetical—whether a manuscript amendment that is tabled tonight will be discussed tonight or tomorrow?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

If a manuscript amendment were tabled and it was selected for tonight’s debate, it would be debated tonight. As one has not been tabled, the hon. Gentleman is still asking a hypothetical question.

[Hilary Benn]

A moment ago, I was pointing out that the proposals that the Government have decided to adopt are different from those made by Lord. He said that student numbers should rise by 10% over the next three years, that there should be clawback to deter unnecessarily high fees and that there should be the right to go to university, determined by academic qualifications. We need more time to discuss the report, precisely because the Government have not adopted all his recommendations. We have not had a chance to debate that matter.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Whether that would be in order is a matter for the Chair. Mr Benn is addressing today’s debate, so perhaps we can get on with it.

[Hilary Benn]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Angela Smith]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. As most of us do not have the benefit of having the time to look at “Erskine May” during the debate, may I ask for your guidance on whether a manuscript amendment would have any impact on any attempt by the Government to move the closure of the debate?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I have already explained to Members that if they want specific advice on the tabling or effects of a manuscript amendment, they should speak to the Clerks. Then they will get the answers to their questions about how such an amendment may or may not affect the debate.

[Hilary Benn]

I was about to give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter).

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Sheridan]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Following on from the comment of the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), tomorrow thousands of students will be coming to the capital of the UK from all over the country, wishing to get access to their MPs, because many MPs have temporary notices up in their constituency offices. Can you assure us that those responsible students who come to the House tomorrow seeking access to their MPs will be given access, and that those MPs will be notified that people are looking for them?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am assured that proper arrangements will be made, as always on these occasions, by the Speaker and the House authorities.

[Hilary Benn]

I am not in the least bit surprised that so many Members have put in to participate in the debate tomorrow. The information that my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) has just given the House demonstrates the complete inadequacy of the time that we are being offered, because it is very hard to see how all those Members will be able to participate in the debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

I am sure that the hon. Lady appreciates that I am following the debate very closely. If contributions are not in order, I will say so.

[Hilary Benn]

The Deputy Prime Minister will have to explain his imperfections and I hope very much that he will participate in tomorrow’s debate, because many hon. Members will want to intervene on him.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman is quite right: Mr Speaker will make a decision on those manuscript amendments in due course, and I am sure that he will ensure that the House knows when he has decided. I call Mr Hilary Benn.

[Hilary Benn]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was giving way to my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley).

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Thank you.

[Hilary Benn]

I bow to my hon. Friend’s expertise in these matters. He illustrates the point that many people are interested in all those subjects, as well as others that he did not have the opportunity to mention. They want us to have the chance to debate these matters tomorrow.

Points of Order

Debate between Hilary Benn and Baroness Primarolo

Tuesday 30th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have just had a statement which, although very important, did not have to be made today—a day on which we have two crucial Opposition day debates. Given that the Opposition day was moved from yesterday to today in order to avoid yesterday’s autumn forecast cutting into the time available, is it not a bit galling to discover that a statement has been put in for today? I hope that that has nothing to do with trying to distract attention from the problems that the Government face on school sport and on breaking pledges on tuition fees. We understand that there are occasions when there are urgent questions and urgent statements, but what can be done to protect the time for Opposition days?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving me notice of his point of order. He will understand that the timing of statements is a matter for the Government. He will also know that the Procedure Committee is considering ministerial statements, and he may well want to make some points to that Committee. Of course, he can always raise the matter again at business questions on Thursday.