Points of Order

James Sunderland Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Penny Mordaunt]

This is really important. In that case, we should report these issues, tell people what we have seen and support victims to come forward. We should not go on the airwaves and make unsubstantiated and, in some cases—not the hon. Lady’s—factually incorrect allegations. That does not help to raise standards in this place. Mr Speaker has got this absolutely right. I refer the hon. Lady to the statements he has made. If any member of my party has behaved in an improper way, I will condemn that as the Leader of the House, but what we need are facts, and the whole conduct of this House would be helped if people stuck to the facts.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. When Members enter this privileged place, we are obliged to abide by the code of conduct that exists for all of us, which I believe to be sacrosanct. Last night, at least one photograph appeared in the national media purporting to show an alleged incident at the entrance to the No Lobby. May I seek your counsel in two areas? First, how might we collectively raise the bar of personal conduct in this place so that photographs are not taken for disingenuous purposes and for political gain? Secondly, how might we best identify those responsible, so that this poor behaviour can be brought to account?

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Mr Speaker and the entire Deputy Speaker team deprecate any taking of photographs, whether in the voting Lobby, the Chamber or certain other areas. Mr Speaker has made it absolutely clear, but let me emphasise it again: do not take photographs in areas where they are forbidden. The hon. Gentleman has made a good point, and it is the responsibility of each and every one of us to behave better as role models to those outside looking in.

Voting by Proxy (Amendment and Extension)

James Sunderland Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

As a proud member of the Procedure Committee, I rise to support the motion and to commend the excellent work that the Chairman does. The Clerks and staff are excellent, and we have seen her contribution and those of all the members in the report.

When I became a Member of Parliament in 2019, I was most intrigued from day one by the comparisons between the institutions in which I had served. As a military man for 27 years, I was proud to serve an organisation that got the job done. It was very efficient and slick. People knew their place and it was very output-focused. Coming to Westminster, I was struck straightaway by just how quirky and unique this place is, with the obsession with standard operating procedures, dogma and process. It has baffled me to this day, three years on, that we are not more efficient here in how we work. Adjusting to what one might call “antiquity” was not necessarily easy for me, which is probably why I joined the Procedure Committee, because I felt as though I could add some value to what we were doing. Today’s motion is a classic example of where we can add some value.

Parliamentarians should, by nature, be considering ways of becoming more relevant, entering the 21st century and bringing Parliament to the fore in terms of modern ways of working. I completely agree with the shadow Leader of the House that this is about modern ways of working to benefit any modern employer. We are and we should be modern employees. We are adults and we are paid to do a job; we serve our constituents. At least give us a say on how we do that business.

When we consider what an MP actually does, we see that the roles and responsibilities are huge. They are vast—we work around the clock, we work really hard and we believe in what we are doing—but if we analyse it and strip it down, the only non-discretionary thing that we have to do is voting. We have to come here and vote on motions and legislation, which is what our constituents expect us to do, so why would we not make that most fundamental priority fit for purpose? Why, as elected Members of Parliament, would we not make it easier for ourselves to do that? Why would we not do what is necessary to help ourselves in that important task?

So in a nutshell, it is absolutely right that we support the motion today and that we consider extending proxy voting. In my view, it is crazy that Members of Parliament—adults who are ill or injured, who are caring for loved ones at home, with the most desperate, compassionate circumstances, or who are similarly indisposed—cannot register a vote without physically being here. Those who were here before 2019 may recall the scenes of one particular Member being wheeled through the voting Lobby in a wheelchair, suffering from a brain tumour. It is absolutely outrageous that we demean ourselves and what we do here by forcing that to happen.

This is also about childbirth and complications arising from childbirth, and about maternity and paternity leave, and there are many other examples of where we could and should extend proxy voting. We did electronic voting during the pandemic, and my word, it worked so effectively, didn’t it? Why would we not be able to exercise a vote by electronic means? I understand why that is not with us now and why it is necessary to be here in person, and I am a great fan of that, but it was so easy to vote in 2020 using our phones, so why should it not be as easy for us all to vote in the same way or via alternative means if there is a legitimate reason why we cannot physically be here?

So should we remove the bar to participation in proceedings while in possession of a proxy vote? Yes. Should we incorporate

“complications relating to childbirth, miscarriage or baby loss”

into the body of the Standing Order? Yes. And should we temporarily allow Members experiencing long-term illness or injury to use a proxy vote? Absolutely, yes. This is what the military might call a no-brainer: it has to happen. Of course, as we heard earlier from the Chair, the devil is in the detail, and there will be work to define the exact qualifying criteria for a proxy vote. That will come from the pilot and through trial and error, but there is no question but that this is the right thing to do.

Finally, I commend to the House the work of the Procedure Committee more widely. It is an often forgotten Committee, but one that had real utility during the pandemic, in ensuring that we could continue working in that awful, difficult circumstance. Of course, we must challenge dogma and orthodoxy. We are not here to stand still as parliamentarians. We are here to force the agenda, move forward and make sure that this place is fit for purpose. Parliament must be relevant. I therefore look forward to many more such motions as we go forward.

Business of the House

James Sunderland Excerpts

Thursday 10th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mark Spencer]

The hon. Gentleman is right to draw the attention of the House to this matter. He is a courageous campaigner on behalf of his constituent. We are working closely with our partners in the region to make sure that Mr Symons is released and reunited with his family as soon as possible, but I will make sure that the Foreign Office is aware of the hon. Gentleman’s concerns and comments.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

I wonder if the Leader of the House might sponsor a review of the timetabling of oral parliamentary questions. A number of Departments such as the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which I am proud to serve, only ever feature on a Thursday, but 40 minutes is not really long enough, and this morning a number of Members were disappointed that they were not called. They had lots to discuss. Will my right hon. Friend please agree to address the imbalance?

[Mark Spencer]

That is something that the Procedure Committee may well want to consider at some point in the future. My hon. Friend will understand that extending any question session has a knock-on effect on business later that day or on the rota of which Departments appear at the Dispatch Box. It is worthy of review and perhaps the Procedure Committee would like to look at it at some point in the future.

Business of the House

James Sunderland Excerpts

2nd reading & 3rd reading
Thursday 1st July 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I fully recognise the widespread view across the House on this issue. I assure the hon. Gentleman that consultations are taking place—earlier this week I spoke to staff representatives—because the reason for not engaging recall was a bottom-up view, not a top-down view. It is really important that any changes are made with the support of the staff, which I believe is now there. It is a matter for the Commission rather than for the Leader of the House, but I will facilitate bringing forward the necessary motions required to put things into practice. There is also discussion with the chairman of the independent expert panel, Sir Stephen Irwin, about how best to do things. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the wheels are in motion and there is great support across the House and, indeed, from the shadow Leader of the House, with whom I have a meeting later today, to ensure that things are done in a timely manner.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

I am grateful to the Leader of the House for his excellent response on schools last week, but may I please press him a bit further? Parents in Bracknell and beyond are telling me that entire classes and year groups are still being isolated because of one positive covid test; that extracurricular activities are being banned, not least for year 6 leavers; and that parents cannot attend sports days, even when they would otherwise be outside and distanced. Headteachers will be beholden to the unions for as long as they are permitted to use their judgment. Something has gone very badly wrong. Does the Leader of the House feel, as I do, that the only way to get children back to school and living normal lives is for the Government to mandate it?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am, obviously, torn on this matter, because I believe in local decision making. I believe that headmasters and headmistresses throughout the country can show leadership. Some sports days are going ahead. I will be going, on 7 July, to the Hill House School field day, which is going to be arranged in a covid-secure manner. I encourage the leadership of schools to work with the regulations in a way that is allowed and that means things can happen. It is sometimes easier, administratively, to stop things and say no than it is to look at how to be positive and allow things to happen. I reiterate the point that I made last week: while in some cases a whole class may be required to isolate, many settings use seating plans and other means to identify close contacts in order to minimise the number of individuals who need to isolate. Yes, we should push from the top, but there should also be a response locally, from individual schools, to try to ensure that children get to school as often as is possible.

Business of the House

James Sunderland Excerpts

Thursday 24th June 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

As I have said before, if the hon. Lady wishes to raise specific points about Anthony, her constituent, I will always try to facilitate those being taken up with the right Government Minister. The Opposition are slightly inconsistent on this, because on the one hand they complained bitterly that the border was not closed fast enough, and on the other hand, they want the travel industry to be supported. Those are two conflicting objectives. I point out that there has been very significant support for all industry, including £407 billion of taxpayers’ money. We have protected 14 million jobs and people through the furlough and self-employment schemes at a cost of £88.5 billion, and the travel industry is obviously eligible for those. Everyone wants to get back to normal—to normal travel and normal routines—but the pandemic is still raging in many parts of the world, and it has to be done in a proportionate way.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

Current covid policy dictates that if a single child tests positive for coronavirus at school, the entire class is sent home and forced to isolate for 10 days. Does my right hon. Friend agree that that is risk aversion gone mad and that we owe it to our children to get back to normal? Will he please raise this as a matter of urgency with No. 10 and the Department of Health and Social Care?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, because he was kind enough to warn me of his question and therefore I have had the opportunity to find out what the precise policy is and put it on the record. While in some cases a whole class might be required to isolate, we know that many settings are using seating plans and other means to identify close contacts and minimise the number of individuals who need to isolate, so it is not an absolute rule, but a matter of judgment. I hope people will use their judgment wisely.

Business of the House

James Sunderland Excerpts

Thursday 15th April 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Lady raises a point of huge importance. This is something that the Government have an inquiry on, and that inquiry is continuing. The inquiry has not lost pace because of the pandemic; it has been holding remote hearings and will come to a conclusion. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Paymaster General will be having meetings with the all-party parliamentary group on haemophilia and contaminated blood, but also with the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), to update people on what is happening and to give reassurance that this matter is taken deeply seriously. It was a terrible failing with appalling consequences for individuals and their families.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

Given the decision by the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government that local councils should cease meeting virtually from 7 May, will my right hon. Friend confirm whether there is a similar plan for this place? If that is not the case, perhaps we could re-extend that courtesy to the shires, noting that attendance at local council meetings has never been this good.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The House’s proceedings are determined by Standing Orders, and the facilities for virtual meetings were created by statute. This was not a decision by MHCL; it is that the temporary statute expires on 7 May. However, as I understand it, a High Court ruling is due before May on what capabilities there are, and the Government will be supporting the action by Hertfordshire County Council, Lawyers in Local Government and the Association of Democratic Services Officers as the case is heard.

Virtual proceedings have helped councils, but they are allowed to meet, because it is a legitimate business purpose. They have to take covid-secure measures, as we are taking in this House to ensure that this House operates. The Government are not unsympathetic to considering how these things operate in future, but the legislation that was temporarily introduced expires on 7 May. My hon. Friend will know that we have a Queen’s Speech coming, and we have a number of Bills going back and forth between the Lords and the Commons, so the ability to legislate between now and then is extremely limited.

Business of the House

James Sunderland Excerpts

Thursday 4th March 2021 Commons Chamber

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

Can I please refer my right hon. Friend back to the excellent question from my hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Mr Wragg)? Does he agree that somebody needs to take comprehensive ownership of the road map for a return to a fully physical Parliament, and if so, who should that be?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend raises an interesting question—indeed, a complicated question—because who runs this House is something that I am not sure anybody has ever yet worked out, but perhaps one day we will. It is divided up between various bodies. The House of Commons Commission—very much led by you, Mr Speaker—will have the authority to decide when members of staff can come back, but the House itself determines the procedures within the Chamber. The current procedures continue until 31 March and then there will be an opportunity to decide to renew them, but they cannot be renewed indefinitely without the desire of the House to do it. I would certainly hope that we get back to normal in accordance with the road map, but that will be a decision for Members themselves.

Business of the House

James Sunderland Excerpts

Wednesday 30th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am a bit puzzled, because I irrationally and dogmatically brought forward a motion earlier today that allows exactly what the hon. Gentleman wants.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

I really welcome ongoing progress with virtual participation, although it does fall short of where the House needs to be. Given that our role in this place is ultimately to serve others, and given that no self-respecting MP would wish to jump the queue, does my right hon. Friend agree that we need to bring in testing and perhaps also to advance vaccinations for Members of Parliament?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The House authorities have worked hard to implement a robust and efficient system of PCR testing for those who work on the parliamentary estate and experience symptoms. We are fortunate that that testing provides highly accurate results in a short turnaround time. The current testing regime, combined with the social distancing and covid security measures on the estate, has enabled Parliament to continue to function effectively, but—I agree with my hon. Friend—less effectively than when we are fully physically present.

The House authorities have been working with Public Health England and the Department of Health and Social Care to explore the potential use of lateral flow tests. That work continues, but currently the roll-out of lateral flow testing has been prioritised to other sites, such as schools, hospitals and care homes. We are working to ensure that all MPs will be able to participate remotely in debates and use the proxy system that has been in place for some time. That is the right compromise for the time being, but we celebrate the news that the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is now available and will be rolled out, and that once a sufficient number of people have been vaccinated and it is safe to do so, this House can get back to normal. However, I agree with my hon. Friend that it would not be right for us to jump the queue.

Participation in Debates

James Sunderland Excerpts

Monday 16th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am concerned to hear the hon. Lady say that this is not a covid-secure workplace. If we look around, we see the precautions that have been taken: the advice given to people to wear masks, which most people are doing as they walk about the Palace of Westminster; the gaps that have been placed; the covid-security of this Chamber; the lack of spaces within this Chamber, which is problematic for many Members, who regret the fact that they are not able to attend debates and that we have only about 50 people in the Chamber, rather than the 400 or whatever the precise number is that we can normally contain; the changes that have been made to the Tea Room, which are not enormously popular with all Members, to ensure that it, too, is a covid-secure workspace; and the encouragement of people, which has been continual since the beginning of this pandemic, to wash their hands. I must confess that I would be very surprised if right hon. and hon. Members are not washing their hands regularly, and no doubt she will encourage them when she sees them failing to do so. I am surprised by what she says and think that the work done by the House of Commons authorities to ensure that this is a covid-secure workplace has been most impressive. As regards the equalities issue, we are doing exactly what she would want to see done in ensuring that those people who have illnesses are able to participate in our proceedings.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

I welcome this urgent question and the prospect of the clinically extremely vulnerable being able to participate remotely in this place, particularly as a temporary and expedient measure. As a wider point, may I ask the Leader of the House for assurance that the House authorities are working up a plan for how this Chamber returns to normal and when?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

That will be a happy day, a day of jubilee and song, and I hope we do not have to wait until the platinum jubilee before it happens. But it will happen partly automatically, because the motions will one day expire. Of course I am enormously keen to get back to normal, when it is reasonable to do so, and in that we will be following the rest of the country. The fact that we are able to do as much as we can do should make us proud of our democracy. We have shown that democracy is essential and it is being carried out, and it is working in the interests of the nation. People are here and they are arguing over the contentious issues, and this is so fundamental, but it is slightly sotto voce compared with the full-blooded call we have for the interests of our constituents when the Chamber is packed, the Prime Minister is at the Dispatch Box and that roar goes up, when the real pressure is on, to ensure that, on behalf of the British people, we hold Her Majesty’s Government to account.

Business of the House

James Sunderland Excerpts

Thursday 8th October 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

No.

[James Sunderland (Bracknell) (Con)]

Mr Speaker, you will be the first to acknowledge that life here in Westminster has been a bit different for the past few months. Our meetings are virtual; Members are asked by well-meaning members of staff to move their chairs or simply to move on; and of course face masks are now part of our dress code. Does my right hon. Friend agree that these measures are necessary to keep us safe, not least from ourselves, and that Parliament has a clear responsibility to set the right example?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for that really important question. We do have an obligation to lead by example. I will not begin to pretend that I like wearing a face mask, but, under your guidance, Mr Speaker, I have taken to wearing one when walking about the Palace, partly because we all have a duty as Members of Parliament to set a lead and an example and partly because it may have a benefit and stop the spread of the disease, in which we all share a responsibility.

I am grateful that my hon. Friend mentions staff asking Members to move apart and observe social distancing. I would encourage everybody to recognise that this is done in a spirit of good will and to help us and keep us all in accordance with the rules. Please bear with members of staff when they do this. They are not doing it because they enjoy being officious; they are doing it because they have been asked to by Mr Speaker, by me and by my right hon.—the right hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz). I was about to call her my right hon. Friend; in this context, we are all working together. The Commission is very keen that people should observe the rules. This House has done such good work to make this a covid-secure environment. We all have our part to play. We have to lead by example by being here, but while we are here, we must follow the rules.