Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Tuesday 10th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Nia Griffith]

My right hon. Friend made that point extremely well. Many people’s first political engagement may come about when they join a campaign on an issue that they feel strongly about, and to curtail that would discourage participation when we all recognise that the real challenge today is to get more participation and enable more people to have a voice in our society.

Another issue that will hit people very hard is the reduction of the financial limit in Wales. That will be £2,000, and there will be a requirement to declare many additional costs, such as staffing costs.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Does the hon. Lady share my concern that, according to my reading of the Bill, the reduction in expenditure in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland is greater in proportional terms than the reduction in expenditure in England? Would she share her thoughts? Why does she think that the UK Government have brought this iniquitous proposal forward?

[Nia Griffith]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. Of course, it makes it especially difficult when organisations are trying to influence policy both in the devolved Administrations and in the UK Government. So many areas overlap now. It can be big things such as climate change, which was mentioned earlier; it can be things like fuel poverty or it can be much smaller things, which are partly devolved, partly not. A lot of work is done by such groups in influencing both the devolved Administrations and more widely.

Many of these organisations also operate internationally and have international deadlines. I refer to the millennium development goals, the UN convention on the rights of the child and so on. Those organisations participate in worldwide activities whose timetable may fall within the wrong time in an election cycle and it may be more difficult for them to put forward their point of view. Some of them have even talked about making sure that some of their policies are dealt with in their overseas offices so that they are not caught by the Bill. There are a huge number of complications.

The other issue that particularly affects organisations operating in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland is that they are often in coalition with many other groups, some of which operate on a UK-wide basis and some of which operate only in Wales, Northern Ireland or Scotland. Accounting presents yet more complications, and they look with horror at the accounting detail that the Bill will require of them, which they will have to finance by paying someone to sort it out.

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

It is high time that the House examined the issue of lobbying. Our motives should be guided by two main aims that we should use to judge the provisions in the Bill, in addition to the stated aim of transparency.

First, we must tackle the corrupting influence of big money and take it out of politics. I recently visited the United States on an exchange visit to Congress arranged by the British-American all-party group. I was amazed to learn that Congressmen spend a large amount of their time raising funds to fight the next election rather than legislating. As the old saying goes, “He who pays the piper calls the tune.” We should be avoiding, at all costs, pursuing the US route, but sadly the costs of politics in the UK are increasing. Therefore, the key to ensuring that our politics is not dominated by vested interests is to reduce the costs of politics.

Secondly, legislation on lobbying, political campaigning and party funding should enhance the plurality of our politics, not undermine it. It is therefore a great shame that this Bill on lobbying fails to tackle the matter and would be virtually useless in dealing with any of the lobbying scandals of recent times—donations for dinners, cash for honours, cash for questions, and the ministerial “cab for hire” scandal of the previous Labour Administration. The key question is which one of these deplorable scandals would be stopped by the Bill.

I have a background in public affairs, having worked for Citizens Advice Cymru before entering this place. The main effort of lobbying is focused on the Executive—Ministers, civil servants and special advisers in the Government—and not on the legislature, whether Parliament or the National Assembly. After all, it is within the Executive that key decisions are made. There is a strong need to regulate lobbying of the Executive and to deal with aspects such as the revolving door whereby figures in Government—civil servants, SpAds and Ministers—go on to take up positions in companies that have benefited as a direct result of the decisions they made while in Government.

During the aforementioned visit to the States we had a meeting at the Pentagon, which was a very strange place for a Plaid Cymru politician to find himself. We learned that officials responsible for procurement or issuing contracts had to make an official annual declaration of their financial holdings for independent assessment, to ensure that their decisions were not being influenced by personal financial considerations. The civil service code in the UK does not make it a mandatory requirement for those in commissioning positions to publish such statements. If we are to have a cleaner politics Bill, surely that is the sort of measure we should be considering.

There is no need to rush through legislation as this Bill seeks to do. The amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) is highly sensible. We must get agreement among all the political parties that operate within the British state, not have something partisan being pushed forward by the Government of the day. This Bill should be dropped and a special Committee of the House be convened to recommend rules on lobbying that should then be implemented. Anything partisan is bound to fail.

As others have noted, part 2 will impede the ability of third parties such as charities, think-tanks and other groups to campaign in the year prior to a Westminster election. I would like to highlight the potential for chaos among civil society groups operating in Wales and the negative impact on Welsh democracy. We live in a state of near-permanent elections—local, European and Westminster elections, and, of course, those for the devolved legislatures. Yet, again, we have a Westminster Government proposing legislation that does nothing to consider its impact on Wales.

My previous employer is an England and Wales body, and in that post I would have been responsible for simultaneous UK-wide and Welsh campaigns, which often crossed over each other. How can organisations possibly dissect what aspects of campaigning work come under the provisions of the Bill, and how can the Electoral Commission regulate campaigning activity?

The rules would be far more wide-ranging than reducing the annual expenditure. Regulations would cover a wide range of activities carried out for election purposes, such as controls on spending on events, media work, polling, transport, policy documents, discussing party policies, election material distributed to the public, and staff costs. The only things missing are staples and Blu Tack. Welsh democracy could suffer as a result, as charity and campaign groups may have their campaigning activities restricted all because of a Westminster election, while the same rules will not apply during an Assembly election year.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that part 2 applies not just to Westminster elections, but to elections for devolved institutions as well?

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. There has been little consultation in Wales, as reflected by the very strong correspondence we have received from bodies in our country.

Charities and campaign groups working in Wales could have their ability to interact with and make representations to the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales curtailed, which could affect the quality of legislation designed in Wales. Critically, plurality in Welsh political life could be undermined. We have a very weak civil society as it is and many of the bodies in Wales are UK-wide or England and Wales bodies.

A large bureaucratic job is being imposed on and expected from the Electoral Commission, and it is ironic that this is coming form the small-state Conservative party, with Lib Dem backing. The Electoral Commission did not call for the changes, nor was it consulted. What extra resources will it be given to achieve the new responsibilities that the Leader of the House is placing on it?

Finally, on part 3, I am the son of a former trade union shop steward so it will be of little surprise to the Leader of the House and the Government that I have concerns and consider the provisions to be a thinly veiled attempt to restrict and constrict trade unions and trade union activity. The British state already has some of the most restrictive trade union laws in the western world. Far from hindering trade union activity further, we should be incorporating the unions into the economy as Germany has historically done, with unions playing a key part in industrial strategy and workers’ representatives on company boards.

In conclusion, party funding is closely linked to the issues thrown up by the Bill. Plaid Cymru stresses the need for recognition that the politics of the British state is now undoubtedly a multi-party affair. Party funding rules should receive full consultation and agreement, and not be a stitch-up by the London parties. This Bill fails in the aim of removing big money from politics and undermines plurality. We will therefore vote against it this evening.

Lobbying

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Tuesday 25th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Helen Jones]

The hon. Gentleman will find that the polling in Scotland is no different from that elsewhere. There is a loss of faith in politics and politicians in many developed countries, and it ill behoves him to make cheap political points about that serious issue, with which we all must deal. People think that there is a distinct political class of people who move in and out of lobbyists, think-tanks and Parliament. I know that that is not true and that there are many hon. Members from diverse backgrounds—obviously not those in the Cabinet—but we have to bear responsibility for allowing that perception to exist. That is why dealing with lobbying is important, so that is one of the vital things—not the only one—that we must do to open up Parliament. If we continue to allow people to have the impression that some individuals have privileged access and may buy the right to influence legislation, we are digging our own graves. It is not lobbying itself that is wrong, as many hon. Members have said, but lobbying behind the scenes when people do not know about it.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Helen Jones]

In a moment.

There has been promise after promise on lobbying, yet nothing has been done. We have been reminded that it was the Prime Minister who said that lobbying was

“the next big scandal waiting to happen”.

That was followed by further words, but no action. The Conservatives did not commit to introducing a statutory register in their election manifesto, despite the fact that when the Prime Minister made his famous “Rebuilding trust in politics” speech, he said:

“it’s time we shone the light of transparency on lobbying and forced our politics to come clean”—

it has taken a bit of time to do the washing.

The coalition agreement contained a promise to introduce a statutory register of lobbying and the former Minister for constitutional affairs, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), promised that he would publish proposals in January 2011, but then everything went quiet until recently. It seemed that no one was responsible at all.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hart]

The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to hear that I have seen the report; as I am still a member of that Committee, from time to time I read our reports. I take his point, but if he will forgive me I will come back to it in my closing remarks. If I forget, no doubt he will intervene.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Does my constituency neighbour agree that we also need to look at the relationship between the Government and big business? Earlier this year, the World Development Movement produced a document stating that a third of Ministers had links to finance or energy companies involved in the exploitation of fossil fuels. We have not seen much movement towards creating a low carbon economy in the UK. Does the hon. Gentleman understand why people are concerned?

[Simon Hart]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, and I entirely respect his view. I sometimes think we underplay the obstacles that outside interest groups have to go through to get to and influence Ministers. We are talking about creating not only new legislation, but legislation on top of an already stringent set of rules. Again, I am not trying to duck the issue, but I will come back to the hon. Gentleman’s point when I come to how we should resolve all these differences.

I turn to what I call “donor lobbyists”, the strongest part of whose argument appears to be the strength of their bank balances. I am interested that the Labour party has made concessions on that, particularly with regard to the influence of trade unions. For some time, a concern among Members on the Government Benches has been how we could have a register of lobbyists that did not include everybody. Members on both sides of the House have made progress on that during this debate.

I shall make only two further points, the first of which is our strange obsession with what we seem to call these days “professional lobbyists” without any real qualification of what they might be, although the Chairman of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee went some distance towards that. Plenty of people consider themselves to be professional lobbyists but have many other strings to their bows and do many other things for the organisations they represent. Are they or might they be considered professional lobbyists under the proposals? We have yet to find out.

It strikes me as odd that we seem to gloss over some of the big organisations. Tesco has been mentioned, probably unfairly, as an organisation that might not fall under the proposals because everybody knows what it stands for. Actually, that is not right. Tesco might come into this building to lobby on fuel prices, planning, food labelling or any number of issues that come under its jurisdiction. We have to be careful about drawing some random arbitrary line above which some people go. Rather than re-establish public confidence in what we do, we could end up causing great disappointment to those interested in the proposals and do ourselves considerable harm in the process. Likewise, there are plenty of well financed, organised and documented pressure groups—campaigning against or in favour of major wind farm developments or things such as HS2—that are unquestionably engaged in very sophisticated lobbying.

It will not surprise hon. Members to hear that I want more lobbyists; I think they are a good thing and bring great variety and strength as long as we treat them with sufficient recognition and responsibility. Doing anything that might deter people from being able to lobby us pretty well however they wanted would be a counter-productive road down which we should not go.

We seem to have overlooked some existing legislation—the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Whenever I have wanted to know what has been going on in the darkened corners of ministerial offices, I have simply put in a freedom of information request and have probably acquired most of the information I have wanted about who is meeting whom and on what basis. Let us not reinvent something that already exists and to which every member of the public has perfect access.

Lastly, I want to touch on two things. First, there is the positive contribution of lobbying, which some of us seem to have slightly overlooked. Personally, my life would grind to an absolute halt if lobbyists representing all sorts of different groups did not supply me with lots of useful, expert information on a range of subjects and completely free to the taxpayer. If we had to get our offices to pay for that information, the taxpayer might have something to say about that. Let us not for one minute make it more difficult for responsible organisations —charities, industry pressure groups or anything else—to provide us with a constant stream of high quality information, which makes us more likely to produce decent legislation.

Having read the Government’s amendment to the Opposition proposal, I am confident that we are pointing in the right direction on resolutions. We need to avoid reforms that are simply a partial list of names on a piece of paper. We must not over-regulate a responsible industry; that might unintentionally make the life of the charitable sector, in which I have some interest, all the more difficult. If we end up in a situation where people who donate to charities or contribute to charitable activity think that their donations may become the subject of political debate or some public declaration, that might make them, for all sorts of sensible reasons, much less inclined to make their generous contributions to those charities. If the consequence of our trying to resolve a political issue in this building is that we end up deterring people from supporting valuable charities, we will not have done a good job in the eyes of the public, but a very bad one.

The issue gets to the heart of the complexities of the debate. I hope we can reflect on the views held by Members on both sides of the House, and particularly the view of the Chair of the Select Committee. We should turn a deaf ear to calls for great haste to answer the question of why we have not done something.

We can see from a handful of the contributions this afternoon that we could legislate in great haste and make an absolute horlicks of this. It would be much more sensible for us to work our way steadily through the issues raised, particularly that of definition. If we do not do that, rather than having been able to tick a box and sign off an aspect of the coalition agreement, we will have created a situation in which, when the next lobbying scandal comes along—and it unquestionably will—people will ask what the register was all about and why it did not prevent the scandal from occurring. We will have to look them in the eye and say, “Of course it never stood a chance”.

We must take time. The Opposition proposal, dare I say it, is a little cynical; the Government amendment makes a great deal more sense. The Government are right not to be bullied or rushed into producing something hastily that proves incomplete. I have no difficulty, with all my history, in recommending that those who are interested should vote against the Opposition proposal and in favour of the Government amendment.

Electoral Registration and Administration Bill

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Heath]

I would not want to mislead the hon. Gentleman by suggesting that I have personally made such contact, because I have not. That would have been a matter for the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who is the Minister with responsibility for constitutional reform. However, throughout our work on the Bill, we have ensured that we have shared our intentions with all the devolved Administrations that will be subject to it. I will confirm to the hon. Gentleman what consultation was carried out with the Welsh authorities, but I am confident that that will have taken place, because it has happened with other aspects of the Bill. When possible, we have accommodated any points that the devolved Administrations have made.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The clause deals with the timing of local elections, but local authority elections are a matter for the National Assembly. Clearly, community council elections should also be a matter for the National Assembly, rather than being reserved to Westminster. Further to the question asked by the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David), will the Minister hold discussions with the Welsh Government on taking that idea forward? There is a Green Paper on future electoral arrangements for Wales, and perhaps the subsequent White Paper and legislation would be a vehicle to move that forward.

[Mr Heath]

I undertake to draw the hon. Gentleman’s remarks to the attention of the Wales Office and my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office. If progress can be made in the way that the hon. Gentleman suggests, that can certainly be considered.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 14 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 15

Alteration of electoral registers: pending elections

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

As always it is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams). I want briefly to outline where my party stands on the Bill.

Although we support the principle of individual electoral registration, we believe that the changes to electoral boundaries that are set to affect Westminster constituencies and possibly even National Assembly constituencies in Wales make the Bill far more contentious than it should have been. In an Opposition debate on this issue earlier this year, on Second Reading and in Committee, I warned that completeness of the register was now the major issue because of its effect on constituency sizes, a point that was made by the hon. Gentleman. Accuracy is important, but the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 has effectively moved the goalposts of electoral registration. This means that, more than ever, completeness of the register is more important because those who are not on it will have an impact on parliamentary representation for the whole community. It will not just impinge on their own rights to choose their MP or Assembly Member. That is why I believe that the EROs and the Electoral Commission have a very important role in getting completeness of the register and why they must have the resources to do so. That is why the ring-fencing point is so important. It is disappointing that we did not have a chance to debate that amendment in more detail.

I want to repeat the concerns about the possibility of a cliff-edge drop in electoral registration ahead of the next National Assembly elections in 2016. I hope that there will be regular updates via the Electoral Commission on the success of the EROs and the work they are doing on individual electoral reform to ensure that a cliff-edge drop in electors does not take place as it did in Northern Ireland when those reforms were implemented some years ago. That continues to be a major concern for us even at this late stage.

We have had a good debate on the principles and implementation of this legislation, although the concerns that I have consistently placed on the record—mostly about the effects of the 2011 Act—have, disappointingly, not been fully answered by Government Front Benchers. We will therefore be voting against the Government tonight.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Ruane]

I will come on to that point when I conclude my speech, but I share my hon. Friend’s concern.

There was a lack of co-operation at the start of this process. The Government were sure that they were absolutely right and that the independent Electoral Commission’s figures were nonsense. They initially dismissed the concerns of civic society, including Unlock Democracy, the Electoral Reform Society and Age Concern.

We can compare the Government’s approach with Labour’s attitude on the constitutional changes that we made during our 13 years in government. People may say that we did not do enough to get those who were unregistered back on the register. I would agree with them entirely, because I was knocking on Ministers’ doors—and Prime Ministers’ doors—to say that there was a problem, but it was not properly addressed. However, Labour cannot be accused of using those changes for party political advantage.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Given that the hon. Gentleman raises that point, I refer him to the Government of Wales Act 2006, because there was not much cross-party support for the reforms that were led by the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain).

[Chris Ruane]

Let me set out a list of the constitutional changes that Labour implemented and the way in which we approached them. We changed the position in 2001 so that if someone did not put their name down for two years on the trot, they were taken off the register. That was the cause of the first big drop. Some 1 million to 2 million people came off the register as a result of the Labour Government’s action, and they were our voters. I thought it was daft, but we did it, even though it went against us.

In Scotland, a consensus was in place five years prior to devolution, meaning that everything had been squared with all sections of society. We introduced proportional representation for European elections when we did not need to, and we went from four Labour MEPs in Wales down to one.

Electoral Registration and Administration Bill

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Monday 25th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Allen]

It is a great pleasure to speak again on these very important issues and, in particular, on the amendments before us, regarding the civic duty that we all have to vote, and the question of what a society does when, in a voluntaristic democracy, some individuals consistently refuse to play by the rules, to play their part and to carry out their share of the democratic duty that should fall on all of us.

We have heard a lot about the sacrifices that people have made, and I will not go over those issues again, but, when one looks at the history books and sees what sacrifices people made to achieve the vote, one finds that it adds great resonance to our debate. We have all had the experience of people who say, “Well, I don’t bother. I don’t even register. A plague on all your houses —it doesn’t mean anything to me.” As far as I am concerned, that is breaking the social contract that we all have when we commit to serving our democracy. If we do not maintain, hone and develop that social contract, we leave the door open for those who would take away our very democracy.

Therefore, on behalf of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, I am taking what might at first sight appear to be a rather draconian view. It is that, in extreme circumstances, after many warnings and much discussion, there should be a power—a reserve power—to fine those who deliberately flout the rules and regulations of registration.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

How did the hon. Gentleman’s Committee come up with the figure of £500?

[Mr Allen]

I do not think that any science was involved in coming to that figure; the Committee felt that it should be pitched at a reasonable level. If it were pitched lower—at a parking or traffic-offence level—it might be regarded less seriously. Where it is actually pitched is a matter for debate and for the Government, but I hope that they will listen to people who say that, on the very rare occasions when a prosecution takes place, such offences should be met with an adequate fine.

I am not suggesting that everyone who fails to register should be fined £500. We heard that in a whole year in this country, people were prosecuted for non-registration only 67 times. That is not quite one in a million, but such prosecutions are a very rare occurrence. However, we need the power to fine so that people understand how seriously we take the matter.

I congratulate the Government again on how they have moved on a number of these issues. I am delighted to be joined by a member of my Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore), who participated in our debates and made sure that so many of our proposals were put in a way that allowed the Government to accept them and take the Bill forward.

Like the other Committee members, my hon. Friend will remember the early days when it appeared that our electoral system was almost being marketised or commodified by some of the phraseology around at the time. Our right to vote—our democracy—is, in the Committee’s opinion, a civic duty and I am delighted that the Government have reaffirmed that. It is not a consumer choice; it is not a punt, a bet or going down the shops—it is about how we run our society. There are alternatives to democracy; it is important that it is healthy and strong and that everybody participates in it.

Business of the House

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Thursday 21st June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I understand my hon. Friend’s concern. There is concern about the impact on some people of high energy drinks. The UK Food Standards Agency considers that the effects of caffeine are transitory and without permanent health effects. It has published advice that children and other people who are sensitive to caffeine should consume such drinks only in moderation. If my hon. Friend has further evidence, the FSA and the Department of Health would very much like to have a look at it to see whether that advice needs revision in the light of the evidence.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

This week, the Welsh First Minister said on the Floor of the Senedd that he was actively canvassing for the relocation of Trident to Milford Haven. The reaction of the people of Wales to this news is one of horror. Will the Leader of the House ask the Secretary of State for Defence to make a statement on what progress there has been in the intergovernmental negotiations on this issue?

[Sir George Young]

We had Defence questions a few days ago, on Monday last week, and I do not think that the opportunity to ask Defence questions arises again until September.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Thursday 14th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

I absolutely agree that the roll-out of 4G is another opportunity. One of the options proposed by Ofcom would mean 98% coverage of 4G, which would be extremely important in many of the rural areas about which hon. Friends are concerned. We have an ongoing consultation about the mitigation plans for people whose signals will be affected by these auctions. Ofcom has not told me that it has any concerns about the plans that are in place, but I will listen to it very carefully in that regard.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

3. What recent discussions he has had on the future of local newspapers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

The Secretary of State specifically has had no recent discussions. However, I have taken part in a number of recent debates and events, including a Westminster Hall debate on 25 April, which was attended by no fewer than 50 colleagues, and a meeting with Johnston Press at the end of May, which 25 colleagues attended.

[Jonathan Edwards]

What discussions has the Minister had with colleagues in the Department for Communities and Local Government to extend the provisions of the Localism Act 2012 to include local newspapers as community assets? Under the terms of the Act, that would offer threatened newspapers a stay of execution while alternative ownership models were explored.

[Mr Vaizey]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman is saying. As he knows, the Department for Communities and Local Government has been successful in stopping local council newspapers competing with local newspapers, but local newspapers are private assets and I would be surprised if they could be registered as community assets under the right to buy. This is the first time I have heard this idea, however, and I will certainly let the Department for Communities and Local Government know that it is being proposed.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Hugh Robertson]

I am having one of those days.

May I start by paying tribute to the work of my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (David Rutley) both in the all-party group and as the parliamentary sports fellow? One of the key opportunities for mountaineering and hill walking lies in the tourism initiative launched by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and guided by the tourism Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose). Many people will want the chance not only to take part in the activity of hill walking but to see some of our fabulous countryside.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

10. What assessment he has made of the implications for his policies of the findings of the Woolf Review.

[The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh Robertson)]

We welcome the International Cricket Council’s commitment to an independent review of its governance. It is a key Government priority to improve the governance of all sports, including those operating internationally—it does not say FIFA in my notes but it probably ought to—so we look forward to the ICC’s response.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Woolf review offers a damning critique of the current governance structure of cricket and, to its credit, mentions aspirations for a national one-day Twenty20 cricket side in Wales, backed by 81% of those responding to a recent Western Mail poll. Will the Minister engage with the Woolf report findings and work towards reforming the global game?

[Hugh Robertson]

Yes, I shall certainly work towards reforming the global game. The points the hon. Gentleman makes about the structure of the ICC are indeed correct. As far as Wales is concerned—I think Wales lies under his question—it is worth recording the very real contribution that many Welshmen have made to English cricket. At a time like the present, when independence is very much the political currency, it is worth noting that one of the men most closely associated with England’s rise to the top of the test rankings is Hugh Morris, who is of course Welsh.

Public Bodies

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Thursday 19th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I am pleased to participate in this debate on the scrutiny of draft orders on public bodies, having spoken on Second Reading of the Public Bodies Act 2011. I was unfortunately unable to make as significant a contribution as I had wished to the progression of the Act because amendments that I tabled on Report were not selected, and because amendments in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) that were selected were not reached before the guillotine.

Our purpose today is to discuss the scrutiny of draft orders on public bodies listed in schedules 1 to 5 to the 2011 Act in accordance with sections 11(5) and (6). The intention of introducing such scrutiny is that Select Committees will be charged with making recommendations and reporting on draft orders. That appears to have been agreed in correspondence between the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), in his position as Chair of the Liaison Committee, and the Deputy Leader of the House, who was responsible for the progression of the Act.

The argument is that those public bodies are under the control of specific Departments, and that the Select Committees that scrutinise those Departments contain experts on their operation, and should be tasked with the examination of the proposals. That appears to be a sensible course.

The subsequent suggestion is that members of the Select Committee charged with reporting on the draft proposals will be included in any Delegated Legislation Committee convened to consider them. Again, ensuring a level of expertise appears to be a sensible course, but I would like to raise the issue of territoriality. Inside a single unitary state in which there is a single point of responsibility and accountability, the proposed mechanisms would make a great deal of sense, but I contend, and I am sure the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) would agree, that the practical elements of devolution mean that we must also consider alternative options when we deal with the potential impact of such draft orders. I welcome the opening remarks of the Deputy Leader of the House—he said that he has an open mind on that.

For example, the National Consumer Council, which is also known as Consumer Focus, is included in schedule 1 of the Act. As hon. Members might be aware, the Welsh Affairs Committee, of which I am a proud member—as is the hon. Member for Ceredigion—published a report as recently as last week on its inquiry into the representation of consumer interests in Wales. I have no problem whatever with the UK Government’s aims in giving enhanced roles to the citizens advice service following the scrapping of the National Consumer Council, and there are many clear, tangible benefits to combining advice and advocacy functions. However, I am concerned that the level of consumer advocacy functions currently provided to the people of Wales will be lost.

As I said, this is a territorial argument, which is based on the fact that devolution means that we do not have a single jurisdiction, but several. As a Welsh nationalist, I believe it should be for the Welsh Government, rather than the UK Government, to determine what consumer advice and advocacy structures they want, particularly if the current structures are to be abolished. The lack of consideration we have witnessed from UK Ministers regarding the Act’s impact on Wales further strengthens my convictions.

It is interesting that the UK Government’s preferred structure does not impact on Scotland and Northern Ireland, which have separate citizens advice bodies because responsibility for such functions is devolved for our Celtic cousins. The fact that we in Wales find ourselves in our current position as a result of the Act is a further reminder of the hotch-potch nature of the devolution settlement across the British state and of the dangers that Wales confronts when faced with an inferior settlement. That is why scrutiny of any changes proposed in the draft orders is so important.

Given the reality of a distinct Welsh political agenda, Citizens Advice Cymru has, remarkably, punched above its weight over the years, but it is a fact that Citizens Advice as a whole regards the Welsh context as an afterthought. That is hardly surprising, considering that the key policy levers remain reserved down here in Westminster.

Consumer Focus Wales, on the other hand, has a tremendous research capacity, with some incredibly gifted staff, but it is nearly wholly dependent on other bodies and on commissioned research for the evidence on which it bases its reports. Consumer Focus Wales is very much an equal partner, and it has a more federal approach to England and Wales relations.

There are many benefits, therefore, to empowering Citizens Advice with the functions of Consumer Focus Wales, if all Consumer Focus Wales functions and resources are transferred to Citizens Advice Cymru. Indeed, on Second Reading of the Act, I impressed on Ministers the fact that there was strong support in Wales for advice and advocacy functions to be brought within one body, and I hope that that will be reflected in the draft orders, when they are brought forward for scrutiny.

With the devolution of large areas of consumer policy already having taken place, and the likelihood of more in the years to come, the natural conclusion would be an independent Citizens Advice Cymru, but who will make that argument or question it in scrutiny of the UK Government’s proposals? That is the point I am trying to make.

Proposals for the National Consumer Council’s abolition will go to the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills, on which there is not a single Welsh MP. The same is true in the case of S4C, whose management organisation will be changed as a result of being included in schedule 3 to the Act. Following agreements between the BBC and S4C, those changes are expected to be agreed.

[Mr Mark Williams]

Does that not point to the issue I raised with my hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House about joint scrutiny and joint working between Committees? The hon. Gentleman has made a compelling case regarding the independence of advocacy services in Wales—the kind of case some of us, as he rightly said, would have liked to make in the Public Bodies Bill Committee had we had more time. There would, however, be an opportunity for those of us on the Welsh Affairs Committee, working with the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, to make such points. Surely that is the way forward.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that constructive intervention, and I fully agree. I will go on to make the same point. I often find myself in complete agreement with him, and I remind him that there is plenty of room on these Benches if he wants to cross the Floor.

There remains a real need for scrutiny. Like the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport does not feature a single Member representing a seat in Wales. Given the importance of S4C to Wales, which members of the Public Bodies Bill Committee will know of, there really must be more scrutiny in this place than just that provided by a Public Bill Committee.

In the Public Bodies Bill Committee, the Minister agreed that S4C governance changes

“will be subject to consultation with absolutely everybody who has a legitimate interest in it, and I am happy to reiterate that that will include the Welsh Government.”––[Official Report, Public Bodies Public Bill Committee, 15 September 2011; c. 195.]

I welcome that commitment. I do not wish to go through the whole list of public bodies and make suggestions—[Interruption.] I know that hon. Members want to make the journey back to their constituencies. I am not going to suggest how all these matters might be perceived differently through the prism of devolution, but what, for example, would happen to the excess land of BRB (Residuary) Ltd? Should that be at the disposal of the Welsh Transport Minister?

Although I fully understand the reasons behind the proposed means of scrutinising draft orders, I request that issues of territoriality and devolution be taken into consideration. I do not pretend to have the solution and neither do I wish to encumber ourselves with more work, but perhaps a settlement could be found in which Select Committees scrutinise draft orders if they are considered relevant to their work, and subsequently, perhaps, their members could be made members of any Delegated Legislation Committees. I can certainly imagine that members of the Welsh Affairs Committee would show a particular interest in the case of S4C and Consumer Focus Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jonathan Edwards Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

Some school sports partnerships did an excellent job but, overall, participation among young people fell under the last Government—it has fallen from 58% to 54% over the last four years, three of which were under the last Government. That is why we are looking at the whole business of how we reduce the drop-out rate among people leaving school, so that we can have more people who have sport as a habit for life, including in the hon. Lady’s constituency.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

12. What recent discussions he has had with the organising committee for the 2014 Commonwealth games on disabled sports.

[The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh Robertson)]

The sports programme for the 2014 games is being determined by the Glasgow organising committee in consultation with the Commonwealth Games Federation and the International Paralympic Committee.

[Jonathan Edwards]

My constituent Jemma Morris is an aspiring paralympian in archery, and the county of Carmarthenshire has high hopes that Jemma will fly the flag for Wales next autumn. She will reach her sporting prime in the Commonwealth games in 2014; however, there will be no archery competitions for disabled sportspeople. Will the Minister raise the issue with the Commonwealth Games Federation so that disabled archers are able to showcase their skills on the global stage?

[Hugh Robertson]

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman’s constituent is in the GB squad, but I visited the paralympic archery squad at Lilleshall last year, so I may have met her. The position with the paralympic mix in the Commonwealth games is that four sports are necessarily included, and the local organising committee is allowed to select another four. I suspect the problem may be that Glasgow has not selected archery. Clearly, since this is a devolved issue, my remit over the Glasgow organising committee is limited, but I will certainly raise the issue when I next see the Commonwealth Games Federation.