Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Lord Bishop of Oxford Excerpts

Monday 22nd April 2013 Lords Chamber

This issue is incredibly important. My noble friend Lord Deben queried a point that I made in my opening remarks, about what he called the cost argument. I think he is right: there are bound to be some issues to do with cost and I am not saying that the Government should not be aware of them. That is not important. What is important is recognising that this problem is real, that there needs to be action to address it and that the Government are prepared to act, but we need to ensure that we do this in the right way and that we consider all the issues before we act, not afterwards. For that reason, I hope very much that the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, is able to withdraw his amendment and the House accepts the Motion that the Government have put forward.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

I thank the Minister again for the great care, thought and seriousness with which she has addressed this issue this evening and on other occasions, and the way in which the Government have clearly moved quite a long way in the direction of the supporters of the amendment. I thank all noble Lords for what they have contributed. I also pay tribute to those outside this House who believe that they are discriminated against, who have ensured that we have had this serious debate this evening.

In his thoughtful speech, the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, said that the issue of caste was so wide that ill founded complaints of discrimination would arise. He gave the example of himself from a goldsmith background perhaps not employing somebody from a blacksmith background and this being the subject of a complaint. But I cannot see that this would be essentially different from other areas of discrimination; for instance, a woman might complain that she is discriminated against because she is a woman and a tribunal would have to make up its mind whether it was because she was a woman or she simply was not up to the job. The situation is absolutely no different. The noble Lord then said that caste is such a wide concept that it really cannot be included in legislation at all. What about the example of India, which includes in its constitution the fact that caste discrimination is totally contrary to the legal system?

The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, suggested that people in the third and fourth generations are not aware of their caste and, as it were, have outgrown it. I have to point out that that is not the evidence that the NIESR found. It found that there was bullying going on in school playgrounds on the basis of caste. The noble Baroness, Lady Flather, also mentioned coming across it when she was a teacher—sadly, it has not gone.

The noble Lord, Lord Gummer, rightly pointed out that even if there were only a few cases of discrimination, those people must be protected by law. What the noble Lord, Lord Gummer, said highlights the fundamental issue tonight.

[Noble Lords]

Lord Deben.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

I am sorry—we are old friends; we know each other from previous incarnations and go back to 1958, when I remember him this high. I apologise: what the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said highlights the fundamental issue of the kind of consultation that people have in mind.

The Government have in mind a wide-ranging consultation to decide whether legislation is necessary. Many of us are convinced that it is and that the consultation needed should be more sharply focused to ensure that the actual regulation that goes with it reflects what the communities most affected by it believe will be clear and workable in law. There is a clear difference between the kind of consultation that we have in mind and that the Government have in mind. We believe that it is important at this date to make it quite clear that legislation is necessary to protect people.

We have had such a serious debate tonight and the issues have been so thoroughly debated that I feel that it is right that the opinion of this House should be tested.