Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019: Section 3(5)

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by underlining the importance of what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has just said to the House, and I ask my noble friend on the Front Bench: can he not discuss with the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister the location of a Health Minister—even if it means appointing an extra one to the department—who will remain in Northern Ireland to supervise the disturbing situation, which the noble Lord has described, until the Executive is restored?

As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has said, we need to think outside the box and bear in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said about an election. I was one of those who supported deferring an election, and I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, was also—he assents. But we cannot go on and on like this. I have urged my noble friend the Minister, of whom I am an admirer, many times. I know that he has done a great deal, but I urge that we must have an interlocutor. I will go further and try to be specific. Who are the two people from the UK Government who did most to bring about the Good Friday agreement? Sir John Major and Mr Blair. Should we not see whether they could play a role? Neither of them is a Member of either House, and they both maintain their commitment to the United Kingdom and to Northern Ireland. I suggested earlier this afternoon that the current Prime Minister should summon all Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly and talk to them in Stormont. Could this not be a follow-up? We must come up with ideas, and we have got to try to do something to break this logjam.

In January, which is quite near, we will have had Northern Ireland without an Executive or a functioning Assembly for three years. That is why we are having these regular debates. What progress have we made? The answer is precious little. My noble friend has come to the Dispatch Box and said that talks are going on. They have been intermittent, but they have also been unproductive. If Northern Ireland is going to continue to have a devolved Administration, it must have an Administration and an Assembly that meets. I do not wish to see a return to direct rule, but we are now in the worst of all worlds because we have Civil Service rule without direct answerability either in the UK as a whole or in Northern Ireland. This is not in any way criticising individuals who are seeking to do their jobs. Politicians in Northern Ireland have got to realise that unless they can come together, direct rule is inevitable. We do not want it, so can we not try to get an interlocutor or interlocutors to go to Stormont and remain there—a locked room has a great deal to recommend it—until we have some agreement?

It goes without saying that I have mentioned the names of two former Prime Ministers without consulting them, and they may be horrified when they read about it tomorrow, if they do, but they are two men who have done an enormous amount for our United Kingdom and for Northern Ireland in particular. I think they will both be deeply distressed if what they achieved between them comes to an end, so give them a chance at perhaps ensuring that it survives. If not, let us have somebody else and let us set an absolute time limit—31 January seems to be a favoured date at the moment—and let us try to make some real progress.

My noble friend has tried extremely hard. His heart is absolutely in the right place. I paid tribute to him earlier this afternoon in the context of another debate, and I pay tribute to him again, but will he please undertake after this debate to have an immediate meeting with the Secretary of State to discuss what has been said in your Lordships’ House, where we believe passionately in the union and in Northern Ireland remaining part of it?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, these reports every fortnight give us an opportunity to touch on some of the bigger issues facing Northern Ireland. I will try to take on some of the specific issues raised today.

I will begin with the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. She raised very important points. We must speak very clearly on this. I have been told by my officials that the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers does not prevent a senior officer of a Northern Ireland department exercising a function of the department during the period of forming an Executive if the officer is satisfied that it is in the public interest to do so. If it is in the public interest to exercise that during the period, we must make sure that there is no diminution of that during that period. I will confirm that in writing to the noble Baroness.

A question was asked about whether these reports will continue. To be honest, I am not sure about that myself in terms of what is happening in the other place, but if we do indeed enter into purdah there will be no Parliament here to debate the reports, so the reporting function would be in abeyance. However, I would instruct my officials that we will continue to draft such reports so that they might be available for a continuing or incoming Government, regardless of what happens next. It is important that this information is still actively gathered together.

The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, asked about the founding of a university in Derry/Londonderry. The answer, in truth, is that it rests with the institution itself to put forward the case. To date, none has done so. If the university is indeed in such a position it should do just that and put together its case to initiate the proceedings, because nothing can happen until that has been completed. It is a matter of devolved authority but, none the less, the first step will necessarily be taking forward the examination of the business case for the initiation of the establishment of a university. If he were able to facilitate, I would be very happy to sit with the institution and discuss this further. I know that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has already sat and discussed with it. I am not privy to that conversation but, if it was not on that point, I am very happy to initiate and have that very clear discussion with that institution if we can.

I will touch on the larger question that rests here today on the formation of an Executive. I am always drawn to the remarks of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, on these matters. As some noble Lords will be aware, I am also a fan of poetry from Ireland:

“Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;


… everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned”.

Those noble Lords who know their Yeats will know the bit I missed out. I had to check the exact words, because I always remember the part I read out. The rest of it says:

“Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,


The blood-dimmed tide is loosed”.

That is what it means if we get this wrong; the bit I left out is the problem. It is easy to talk about the other bits; it is the bit in the middle that causes us the problem. This is where it becomes very difficult, because I am running out of words to say that no stone shall be left unturned. I am out of clichés about what is going on in Northern Ireland and I want to stop using them.

It is critical that the parties in Northern Ireland come together. If they do not, then in the new year there will need to be an election. I do not know what the result will be. I have no crystal ball. My fear is that it will lead us to where we are now, and thereafter we will take that journey down the path down towards direct rule, spoken of by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. As the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has said on more than one occasion, once we enter direct rule, we do not get out of it. I think that the truth is that the people of Northern Ireland are crying out for change, whether it be in health, education or welfare. They are crying out and no one is hearing them. It is a silent cry for change to come.

I cannot make the parties do more than they are doing. The question has been asked: what is the Prime Minister doing? The Prime Minister met the parties in July. However, there is no point in equivocating around the truth that we sit in the fog of Brexit. I make no excuses for that, and I make no explanations around that. That is where we are: becalmed in the fog of Brexit, waiting for the winds of change to pick up and take our vessel towards that promised land which will be change in Northern Ireland. Yet here we wait. We listen to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, about the situation with health in Northern Ireland, and are reminded of exactly what it means to get this wrong. We cannot be becalmed and wait for this to pass. That is the shocking and sad thing about it.

I take a slight issue with the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy. There is a structure to the talks. We have brought in independent facilitators—although not an overarching, high-profile one—to bring the parties to that point from which we believe that the next step can be taken. If I could quantify it in a meaningful way, I would say that we are 95% there but, like jumping over a chasm, 95% does not get you to the other side. It is that magic 5% that needs to be met, and it rests in the areas with which I am sure noble Lords are very familiar: rights, culture and language, issues which can unite us. The poetry of language can bring us together, yet it can divide us strongly as well. This is the part that remains undone—that remains to be stitched together. If we can find that compromise and way forward on the language matter—it seems in some respects so close, and would be so joyous to get right for all of Northern Ireland—the issues that have been stacking up could be addressed one by one. The greatest danger for an incoming Executive just now is too much to do and too little time. What shall the priorities for Northern Ireland be? How shall we try to establish whether it should be welfare, education or whatever else? Some of these issues have been left waiting to be taken forward not just since the downfall of the last Executive, but for decades preceding it.

I could go on in this regard, but I will not. I do not think that would be useful at this time. I wish I could say that when I come back here, those parties will have found a way forward. However, I do not think that I am going to be doing that in a fortnight’s time, I am sad to say. There may be other reasons why I do not return here in two weeks’ time; I am afraid that I do not know about that either. However, I believe that these reports are invaluable. They have provided us with a platform on which to have this serious debate. I hope that they are heard and listened to in Northern Ireland. I hope that the parties recognise them for what they are: a cry for something to be done, for change to come, for something to be resolved and for the Northern—

[Lord Cormack]

My noble friend made a helpful remark earlier. Will he discuss with the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister the question of the Prime Minister meeting Members of the Assembly and talking to them in Stormont?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I do not get to meet the Prime Minister as often as I would like to, I am afraid, but I am very happy, on the next occasion when we do meet, to raise this matter. I do not believe that one can claim to be the Minister for the Union without ensuring that one is doing all that one can to hold that union together. I will make that point very strongly when I next have an audience with the Prime Minister. I suspect that will not be for a little while but, none the less, when I have that opportunity, I will.

I commend these reports. I believe that they serve a purpose and will continue to do so. I hope that there will come a point when we can look back on them as having provided the foundation for the necessary restoration of a sustainable Executive.