NHS (Five Year Forward View)

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Monday 1st December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

The funding I have announced today—the £1.5 billion for front-line NHS services—is recurring, as is the additional Treasury funding of £1 billion. That is being added to the NHS baseline so that it can be invested in long-term increases in staff numbers, among other things.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

What impact will the extra money have on hospitals in special measures, such as the Sherwood Forest Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust? Could he assure the House that any extra moneys will reach clinicians and patients and will not be swamped by the disastrous private finance initiative that the previous Government signed?

[Mr Hunt]

Of course, that has been a huge problem for Sherwood Forest Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust. I have met the chief executive, who is doing a very good job in turning around the trust, but there are huge challenges. What doctors and nurses in failing hospitals or hospitals in special measures want to know is that they have a Government with a long-term commitment to the NHS and who will deliver the economy that can fund the NHS. They also want to know that they have a Government who will tell the truth about problems so that they get sorted out, which never used to happen before.

Breast Cancer

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Annette Brooke]

Again, I thank my hon. Friend. Over the years we found that the provision of a specialist nurse makes a crucial difference. When someone has a symptom that they are not quite sure about and they think, “I don’t want to bother to go to my GP”, being able to pick up the phone and get expert advice deals with the problem quickly, takes away the worry, and if it is necessary to see a doctor, they can go, confident in the knowledge that they are not just imagining the symptom and that it is important for them to follow it through.

A recent survey by Breast Cancer Care, which was released to mark this year’s secondary breast cancer awareness day on 13 October, reported that 90% of people with a secondary breast cancer diagnosis have experienced pain as a result of the disease in the past month. Half of those described their pain as moderate or severe. For 78% of people, their pain meant that they were unable to undertake normal everyday activities, such as household chores, work, child care, hobbies or socialising. Pain is one of the most common symptoms of secondary breast cancer, but much of it can be controlled and managed through access to palliative care. In fact, guidelines from the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence state that referrals to palliative care should be offered soon after a secondary breast cancer diagnosis. However, the same survey by Breast Cancer Care found that only 41% had been offered a referral to a palliative care team. That means that thousands of people are experiencing pain that could be controlled and managed. I am sure that we can all agree that it is unacceptable that anyone should be expected to live with unnecessary pain.

Another indicator of where the care and treatment for secondary breast cancer is not good enough is the lack of secondary breast cancer clinical nurse specialists. The NICE quality standard for breast cancer highlights that everyone with secondary breast cancer should have access to a clinical nurse specialist. The most recent results of the national cancer patient experience survey also found that access to a named clinical nurse specialist was often associated with having a more positive experience in care. For primary breast cancer—I am pleased that progress has been made in this area—it is much more routine for patients to have a clinical nurse specialist to help to co-ordinate their care and provide the support they need.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on not only securing the debate but the work she has done in the House on this topic together with my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine). Will she recognise that as well as the physical pain, the psychological aspect of this disease is quite dramatic? One way of fighting the psychological impact is to give hope to those victims that their life can be extended for as long as possible. The data that she seeks to collate and collect can give medical advancement and hope to those victims at the same time.

[Annette Brooke]

I thank my hon. Friend, and yes, it is so important. We have the good news that life expectancy is increasing under these circumstances, but that makes it all the more important to think about the quality of those extra years.

There are far fewer clinical nurse specialists for secondary breast cancer. There is no definitive figure, but estimates from Breast Cancer Care suggest that there may be no more than 20 clinical nurse specialists who have expertise or experience of working with secondary breast cancer. This is despite there being approximately 36,000 people living with a secondary breast cancer diagnosis. Given the results of the cancer patient experience survey, and anecdotal evidence from those living with secondary breast cancer, we can assume that many secondary breast cancer patients are not having as positive an experience in their care as those with a primary diagnosis. Unfortunately, we do not know for certain as the cancer patient experience survey does not include a specific stand-alone question on secondary breast cancer. It is essential that the survey continues, so could it not include a question on secondary breast cancer?

Breast Cancer Care ran a taskforce on secondary breast cancer in 2006. Its final report, published in 2008, highlighted a number of issues, other than those already mentioned, that patients with secondary breast cancer face. Those include multi-disciplinary teams not discussing secondary breast cancer routinely, the information needs of patients not being met, and patients not being assessed for their psychological or social needs following a diagnosis—the point that my hon. Friend has just made. Unfortunately, it seems that little progress has been made in the six years since that report was released.

Underpinning the problems with care and treatment for secondary breast cancer—and key to much of this debate—is the lack of data and information about patients diagnosed and living with the disease. As I have already mentioned, we still do not have an accurate figure for the number of people who have been diagnosed with secondary breast cancer, only an estimate. We do not have enough quantitative evidence about the experiences of secondary breast cancer patients.

I had the opportunity to meet some women at a recent Breast Cancer Care event to mark secondary breast cancer awareness day last month, and they told me that the care they received was often inadequate, and certainly not at the same standard as the care that followed their primary breast cancer diagnosis. Some typical comments from patients with secondary breast cancer include:

“A diagnosis of secondary breast cancer changes your life completely—nothing is ever the same again”;

“When you’re diagnosed with secondary breast cancer you can have no idea of just how far and in how many different ways it’s going to change your life. So many people don’t understand what a secondary diagnosis means”;

“So many people tell me how great I look, or tell me that I can beat it with chemo and surgery. They don’t understand that I am in pain and I can’t be cured”;

“The pain I had, from when I was diagnosed, basically it was excruciating. But the pain had started slowly and I’d always had aching pains in my chest area. To the point that it was so bad that I couldn’t hold a glass in my hand or put a handbag on my shoulder. I couldn’t touch my head, I couldn’t dress myself. I couldn’t sleep. I couldn’t turn on my side. And also I couldn’t breathe properly”;

“One thing that does distress me is the lack of continuity in my care and I think that if I had one person who was with me through it all that would help a lot”;

and

“The strange thing about this whole disease is that they don’t really prepare you at all. It’s almost finding out as you go along”.

I think that those comments highlight how much progress we have made on primary breast cancer, with all the advice and support that is given to patients very early on. I want to use this debate to highlight not only that progress, but the need to address those issues for secondary breast cancer, some of which have been faced with primary breast cancer.

Although the comments I have just read out highlight the human story, they are not enough to help us find the solutions. Without firm data and evidence, it is impossible to understand fully the impact of secondary breast cancer. We do not really know enough about the types of treatment that patients are receiving or how the quality of a patient’s life changes over time. That lack of information makes it virtually impossible for commissioners to be able to plan and commission services properly that meet local needs. That, in turn, makes it much harder for clinical nurse specialists with the right knowledge and skills to be recruited, particularly when NHS budgets are under pressure. The result is that patients continue to miss out on the vital support and care they need.

As I mentioned earlier, the Government have committed to improving the collection of data on secondary breast cancer, making it mandatory for the NHS in England. When my colleagues and I met the Prime Minister, he agreed that adequate data collection was required. Following that meeting, in January 2011, the Department of Health published its national cancer strategy, “Improving Outcomes”, which committed to collecting data on secondary breast cancer for the first time, stating:

“During 2011/12 we will pilot the collection of data on recurrence/metastasis on patients with breast cancer with the aim of undertaking full collection from April 2012.”

HPV Vaccine

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)]

I am grateful to Mr. Speaker for granting me this debate on vaccinations against the human papillomavirus, otherwise known as HPV. My main aim is to raise the issue of the inherent inequality of the vaccination programme, which excludes men.

Discussing this issue involves raising topics that people often do not want to talk about, but such discussion is easier than having to deal with the illnesses and diseases that arise from not vaccinating. Embarrassment is preferable to the many cancers that are associated with HPV.

Let me begin by saying that it is important to acknowledge the success of the programme. Since its launch in 2008-09, it has successfully screened and vaccinated more than 80% of applicable girls. Last year the original HPV vaccine was replaced with the quadrivalent HPV vaccine, which provides protection against the two strains of HPV that cause at least nine in 10 cases of genital warts. Of course this added protection is above the primary purpose of the vaccination programme—to bring down rates of cervical and vaginal cancer in women. Men are, however, up to six times more likely than women to have oral HPV infection, thereby increasing the risk of cancers of the throat, neck and head.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

I am pleased to hear my hon. Friend mention throat cancers in men. Will he address how much the treatment of such diseases would cost compared with the cost of the vaccine?

[Mike Freer]

Yes, I will raise the cost-effectiveness of the vaccine as compared with the treatment costs of many cancers, including oral or pharyngeal cancer, which is throat cancer.

In 2009, just after the HPV vaccination programme started, there were over 6,500 cases of these cancers, with 47% of penile cancers and 16% of head and neck cancers thought to be HPV-related. Today, however, overall rates of HPV-related cancer and warts should—should, I stress—subsequently come down in heterosexual men, because of so-called herd immunity.

Herd immunity is where men have sex with vaccinated women and thereby get protection against warts, as well as other cancers including penile, anal, oral and pharyngeal cancers. However, they get such protection only if they have sexual contact with UK-born women who have been vaccinated, or with Australian women or those of the very few countries that have had a mass vaccination programme.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Freer]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for intervening on me to ask the Minister a question and I am sure that she will answer it in due course. He makes a valuable point, however. I, too, have a constituent who had an adverse reaction to the vaccine and who is believed to have myalgic encephalomyelitis as a result. Statistically, such reactions might only be small in number compared with the benefits of the widespread vaccination programme, but he makes a good point in that it is important that the Department of Health tracks them to see whether a pattern emerges over time.

[Mr Spencer]

My hon. Friend is being very generous with his time. Is screening available on the NHS to prove whether someone is a carrier of HPV? If I presented myself to my local GP and asked to be screened, would such screening be readily available?

[Mike Freer]

To be honest, I am not sure that I can answer the question. I suspect, however, that if my hon. Friend presented at a sexual health clinic, the staff might be able to advise on what screening or tests were available to identify whether he is a carrier of HPV. It is quite common in men, so in all probability he is. He might want to visit a sexual health clinic tomorrow—if I have not frightened him too much.

I understand that the JCVI inquiry is limited to considering cervical cancer, which restricts the review to women and girls. I press my hon. Friend the Minister to confirm that the JCVI’s scope will be extended to include all HPV cancers so that we can look at how best to vaccinate boys, girls, women and men. The Department of Health must redefine the formal aim of the programme, because if it does not it will be compounding inequality and cost-ineffectiveness.

Males must be protected against the four strains of HPV. The herd immunity that will potentially result from the current programme is often used as a defence for not vaccinating boys, but that implicit intention of excluding men who have sex with men or men who have sex with women who are not vaccinated is simply not sustainable.

The inequality of health protection is obvious and so are the cost savings that I have identified. I know that the Minister will be as concerned as I am that that cost-ineffectiveness and inequality cannot be allowed to continue, and I look forward to hearing her confirmation that the scope of the review will be widened.

--- Later in debate ---

[Anna Soubry]

I am going to repeat everything that has been said, and I agree; that is a very important point. As my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and Golders Green argues, the vaccine does not protect men who have sex with women who have not been vaccinated, because they may have been in a country where the vaccine was not available to them. So I completely take the point, which is well made, and ask my officials to take it back to the Department.

As hon. Members know, the Department of Health is advised on all immunisation matters by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation—an independent expert advisory committee—and our HPV vaccination policies are accordingly based on the advice of the JCVI. When the committee considered the introduction of the HPV vaccine in relation to cervical cancer, it did not recommend the vaccination of boys because with high vaccine uptake among girls, as is the case in the UK, it is judged that there would be little benefit in vaccinating boys. With the high uptake of HPV vaccine among girls, we would expect many boys to be indirectly protected against vaccine-type HPV infections and associated diseases, including anal cancer, head and neck cancers and penile cancers. However, the JCVI recognises that under the current programme, the same protection may not be provided to men who have sex with men, and of course men who have sex with women who have not had the vaccination.

[Mr Spencer]

I hope the Minister would recognise that, obviously, ideally we should be vaccinating boys who are pre-puberty, and at that stage we have no idea of their sexual orientation or whether they may fulfil their career abroad or in the UK, so we have no way to identify whether they are at risk.

[Anna Soubry]

I am going to struggle, because that is another good point. I always try to be honest when I come to the Dispatch Box and when hon. Members make good points—points that were made not only by my hon. Friend, but by the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash).

The point raised by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) is related to the actual vaccine, and I am more than happy to discuss that case, or any other adverse reactions of young women to the vaccine, with him. I am very sorry for his constituent, and I am more than happy to have that discussion with him and help in any way I can. He raises an important point.

As we have heard, in June 2012 the JCVI was presented with data on HPV infections and it noted that there is early evidence to suggest that the HPV immunisation programme in England is lowering the number of HPV 16 and 18 infections—the strains of HPV that are linked to these unpleasant cancers—in females in birth cohorts that have been eligible for vaccination.

I accept that the data are very limited on the prevalence of HPV infections among men who have sex with men, but we hope that research under way at University College London will provide more data and an age profile of HPV prevalence. HPVs, particularly types 16 and 18, are associated with the majority of anal cancers as well as cervical cancers, and to a lesser degree with penile, vaginal, vulval and head and neck cancers, but HPV types 16 and 18 predominate in cancers at those sites that are HPV-related. Data on the impact of HPV vaccination on infection at some of these non-cervical sites are limited.

The JCVI noted that the potential impact of HPV vaccination on non-cervical cancers would make the current HPV immunisation programme even more cost-effective, but it would remain the case that, given the expected effects of immunisation on HPV transmission and the indirect protection of boys that accrues from high coverage of HPV vaccination in girls, vaccination of boys in addition to girls was unlikely to be cost-effective. That argument, which we know is advanced, is combated by all that has been said by my hon. Friends the Members for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) and for Finchley and Golders Green, who urge us to consider the cost of treating someone who has one of these cancers.

Evidence for indirect protection would continue to be evaluated by the ongoing HPV surveillance programme at the former Health Protection Agency, now part of Public Health England, but the JCVI agreed that there may be little indirect protection of men who have sex with men from the current immunisation programme. Therefore, the impact and cost-effectiveness of vaccination strategies for men who have sex with men, with the offer of vaccination through general practice and/or at genito-urinary medicine clinics, needed to be assessed. In addition, data on the prevalence by age of HPV infections in men who have sex with men and in the settings where vaccination could be offered to them were needed to determine the potential effectiveness and cost-effectiveness of HPV vaccination of men who have sex with men. It would also be important to understand better the rates of HPV-related disease in men who have sex with men and the influence of HPV on HIV infection.

As we have heard, in August 2012, the JCVI issued a call for evidence from interested parties, including for information to inform a study on the impact and cost-effectiveness of HPV vaccination of men who have sex with men. Any new proposals for the vaccination of additional groups will require supporting evidence to show that this would be a cost-effective use of resources. The JCVI also asked the HPA, now part of PHE, to undertake that study. The study is under way and, once completed, will be considered by the JCVI, at the earliest in 2014. The Department will consider carefully the advice from JCVI, once the committee has completed its assessment.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Anna Soubry]

The answer is an unequivocal yes.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend recognise the excellent progress that has been made in vaccination against the human papillomavirus to prevent cervical cancer in young girls? Will she find the time to meet me to discuss the benefits of vaccinating boys against that virus?

[Anna Soubry]

Yes, it is always a great pleasure to meet my hon. Friend, and he raises an important issue. I have met a number of other colleagues to talk about their concerns about screening—or rather the lack of screening—for young women under the age of 25 in relation to cervical cancer. That is a concern and we look forward to working on that. I am very happy to meet my hon. Friend.

East Midlands Ambulance Service

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Monday 21st January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Anna Soubry]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her intervention, but I think that it is also important to pay tribute to the ambulance staff who work for EMAS and the outstanding work they do. It is also important to point out that between October 2010 and December 2012 EMAS recruited 65 new front-line staff, so something is going on that is not right. Many people are of the view that unfortunately it is the way that EMAS is being run that is at the heart of the problem.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

I wonder whether my hon. Friend is aware that Nottinghamshire fire and rescue service, if it has to be the first responder, is often left to look after patients until an ambulance arrives, which could be up to an hour, so the fire engine is not available to deal with a much more important issue.

[Anna Soubry]

As ever, my hon. Friend makes an important point, and it is one that I will certainly look at further. I hope that those in EMAS who are listening to the debate will take that comment on board.

In response to the points made by the hon. Members for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero) and for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins), I do not think that it is as simple as saying that the closure of an ambulance station will de facto reduce the service available. Ambulances do not sit in ambulance stations waiting to respond to a local incident. They spend most of their time out of ambulance stations on the road so that they can respond to emergency calls. EMAS reported—these are important facts that should be widely publicised; I am sure the hon. Member for Bassetlaw will ensure that they are—a total turnover of £169.5 million in its 2011-12 final accounts and a £1.4 million surplus. It has also reported surpluses in the previous three years. I understand that for 2012-13 the trust received £3.5 million funding as its share of the EMAS contract from Bassetlaw primary care trust. As I have said, my concern is not so much about the money, but about the way the service is being operated.

Let me turn to the “Being the Best” review. EMAS tells me that it recognises that its response times in rural areas do not match the response times in city centres. In response, EMAS published its “Being the Best” change programme in 2012, which outlined plans designed to ensure that response times and the service provided to all the people of the region were improved. As the hon. Member for Bassetlaw described, EMAS has consulted clinical commissioning groups, overview and scrutiny committees and local people on its proposals. As we have been told, it received substantial feedback from the people of Bassetlaw, with a petition from some 9,000 people. The business case should be presented to the board on 25 March, allowing the trust additional time to review alternative options and develop final proposals for the board to consider.

I am told that a number of options are being considered. They include the “do nothing” option, which involves making no changes to the configuration of ambulance stations; the “do nothing-plus” option, which involves making no changes to the configuration of ambulance stations, but making an additional resource investment in more ambulance vehicles and staff; and the “do minimal” option, which involves making the minimum changes necessary to deliver current service standards in a safer and more effective manner. That option would retain all the current stations and introduce the 118 new community ambulance posts. The fourth option would establish 13 hubs, plus 118 community ambulance posts—I know that my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham), along with many hon. Members, has expressed his concern about that option. The fifth option—a new option—would establish 27 hubs, plus 108 community ambulance posts, and is being considered as a direct result of the consultation feedback.

Newark Hospital

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Monday 7th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. He makes a compelling case for the importance of the hospital to the people of Newark, but does he recognise that people in my Sherwood constituency also value the services that the hospital provides?

[Patrick Mercer]

As my hon. Friend knows, I live right on the edge of my constituency and almost inside his, and my family and I unquestionably depend on Newark hospital—and, of course, on the East Midlands ambulance service—just as much as those in many parts of the Sherwood constituency.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Dr Poulter]

The hon. Lady makes a good point. We know that the Government are putting more money into the NHS. However, this not just about putting in more money, but about how we deliver care in a more joined-up way. At the moment, education works too much in its own silo and the NHS works in another. The Government’s new commissioning arrangements will follow the more joined-up approach that we need to take properly to meet the needs of children with learning disabilities in the round. That must be a good way forward in properly joining up education and health care.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)]

It is my privilege to serve as Health Secretary responsible for the national health service. I have identified four priority areas where I hope over the next two years to make the most progress. They are improving mortality rates for the major killer diseases so that we are among the best in Europe, which we are not at the moment; improving the way we look after people with long-term conditions such as diabetes and asthma; improving the way we deal with dementia, both as a national health service and as a society; and, perhaps most important of all, transforming the attitude to care throughout the NHS and social care systems so that the quality of care is seen to be as important as the quality of treatment.

[Mr Spencer]

What assistance can the Secretary of State give to the newly appointed chairman of the Sherwood Forest Hospitals Trust as he begins to wrestle with the private finance initiative signed under the previous Government and attempts to find repayments in excess of £40 million a year?

[Mr Hunt]

The first thing I would say to my hon. Friend about Sherwood Forest is that I know everyone in the House will join me in saying that our hearts go out to the families of the women who were misdiagnosed for breast cancer. We expect the local NHS to come up with a serious package of measures to make sure that that kind of thing cannot happen again.

My hon. Friend is right to talk about PFI. We inherited an appalling scandal. In order to tackle the PFI debts of just seven institutions, we are having to put aside £1.5 billion over the next 25 years, but we are working with all institutions to deal with this appalling debt overhang.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Tuesday 12th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Paul Burstow]

What I can reassure the hon. Gentleman about is that the Government are carrying on with the evaluation. We are waiting for the evaluation of the second year to see how the scheme is working. The grant is not intended to meet all the additional costs that thalidomiders face. Aside from the grant, there are other sources of public funding and, of course, the funds that the Thalidomide Trust administers on behalf of those survivors of this catastrophe.

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

6. What improvements in health outcomes relating to cancer he anticipates by the end of the decade.

[The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Burstow)]

Our cancer outcomes strategy sets out the ambition to save an additional 5,000 lives every year by 2014-15, which would halve the gap in survival rates between England and the best in Europe. Looking further ahead, our aim is to have survival rates among the best. To realise our goal, we are acting across a broad front: raising public awareness of the symptoms of cancers and supporting GPs; extending screening and the introduction of flexible sigmoidoscopy; improving access to diagnostic tests; expanding radiotherapy; reducing variation in treatment; and improving quality of life for cancer survivors.

[Mr Spencer]

Given the importance of early detection, does my hon. Friend share my concern that young women under the age of 25 in Sherwood are currently being refused smear tests?

[Paul Burstow]

The important point about the extension of any screening programme is that it is based on evidence. The most recent review of cervical smear and screening campaigns took place in 2009, and on the basis of all the available evidence at the time the Government’s advisory committee on cervical screening concluded that it would do more harm than good to extend screening below that age, but it is a standing item on the committee’s agenda. It looks at any new evidence and will continue to do so.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

Can the Minister explain briefly how he has managed to make such rapid progress in 12 months, given that the previous Administration made no progress whatsoever?

[Mr Burns]

My hon. Friend has hit on an important issue. The answer is clarity of purpose and vision on the part of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State not only to talk the talk, but to walk the walk and achieve dignity for patients in the NHS in England.

Contaminated Blood and Blood Products

Mark Spencer Excerpts

Thursday 14th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)]

I will be as brief as possible. I have heard the stories of my own constituents and I have also listened to many other similarly tragic stories, and that shows the magnitude of this problem throughout the country. I welcome the fact that Opposition Members recognise that this has been an issue for successive Governments, and that they regret that it was not tackled in the previous 13 years and we are therefore now left in the position of needing to try to solve this enormous problem.

I also want to thank the Front-Bench team for having taken this matter so seriously. It has looked into it and, for the first time, has committed to taking action. We now have a timetable in place, and we will know the direction we are going in by Christmas. That is an enormous step forward. I am grateful that we now at least have a plan and a direction, and I hope we can achieve the right outcome.