Business of the House

Natascha Engel Excerpts

Thursday 15th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

As a cyclist, I am all too aware when there is a pothole on my route into the House of Commons. My right hon. Friend may have seen a recent statement by one of the Transport Ministers that said that, following last year’s severe winter, additional resources were made available to local authorities to address the pothole issue, and I think I am right in saying that the resources for local authorities over the next three years are higher than in the preceding three years before we took office. I shall, of course, pass on my right hon. Friend’s concern to the Secretary of State for Transport in order to see what can be done to make my right hon. Friend’s ride around his constituency more comfortable than it clearly is at present.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

On Monday, 186 Members voted against all-House elections to the Backbench Business Committee. Of those, 119 were payroll Members. Without those Front-Bench votes, Back Benchers would have secured all-House elections by 38 votes. We all saw the pain on the face of the Leader of the House on Monday night. Can he explain the tortuous logic by which he squares the coalition’s promise to give more powers to Back Benchers with Monday’s Front-Bench intervention?

[Sir George Young]

My hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House set out in his speech on Monday the reasons why he and I believed the House should support the amendment in question. As the hon. Lady knows, all we have done is bring the Backbench Business Committee into line with all the other Select Committees and ensured that, for example, the Conservative party cannot choose which Labour Members serve on her Committee. That would be an abuse, and the House agreed, through a Division in the normal way, with the proposals put forward by my hon. Friend—and supported by the hon. Lady’s Front-Bench party colleagues. We have had that debate, and the time has come to move on.

Committee on Standards and Committee of Privileges

Natascha Engel Excerpts

Monday 12th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

We are trying to get lay members. Whether a judge is a “lay member” is an interesting question. Speaking off the cuff, I do not think we propose to exclude any particular profession. Whether a high-powered judge would want to put his name forward to the House of Commons Commission for this interesting post I am not sure, but it will be a matter for the Commission to consider the candidates that come forward. Some might have a legal background. I am not quite sure that it would be appropriate to appoint a serving judge as a lay member, but somebody with a legal background might not be wholly disqualified.

May I move on to safer territory, namely amendment (a), which was tabled by the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee? The amendment would exclude business arising on a report from the Committee on Standards from the definition of Back-Bench business. It would thus prevent the Backbench Business Committee ever scheduling business arising from the work of one Select Committee and return exclusive control over that business to the Government, which is contrary to the spirit of the Wright recommendations—I read paragraph 176 a few moments ago.

The hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) envisages that the establishment of a Committee on Standards to accommodate lay members should be an occasion to reopen the settlement reached in 2010 on the scope and calculation of Back-Bench business. Although there may be a dialogue on that matter in due course, I do not think this is the right forum in which to consider it. It could certainly be considered in the review currently being conducted by the Procedure Committee. I would invite the hon. Lady not to move her amendment. If she does, I urge the House to oppose it if it is pressed to a Division.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

I put my name down to speak in the debate, but my point is such a small one that I can make it in an intervention. The issue is not whether reports from the Committee on Standards are defined as Back-Bench business, but time. Thirty-five days a Session are allocated to Back-Benchers, but that is limited, and time for debates on such reports will be scooped out of Back-Bench time in an unpredictable way. If the Leader of the House confirms that any time taken by debates on those reports is in addition to the 35 days, I will be more than happy not to move the amendment.

[Sir George Young]

The overall settlement of 35 days included an allowance for standards and privileges matters. As I have said, what the Government are left with does not include such business. The amendment is an ingenious shop-steward bid—if I may say to the hon. Lady—for extra time. If a matter comes before the House from the Standards Committee, or indeed from the Privileges Committee, there will be a debate in the House on that matter at the right time, whoever provides the allocation. That is the assurance that the House wants, and we can have a dialogue offline, as it were, on how that is accounted for in the annual tally between the Backbench Business Committee and the Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

I rise briefly to say that I shall not press my amendment (a), simply because I do not want to detain the House further on Back-Bench business when we are discussing important matters of standards and privileges. However, I will pursue the matter through the Procedure Committee —the Chairman is in the Chamber and will have heard my intervention in this debate—as long as the Leader of the House does not think that the matter rests here, because it does not.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I call Lorely Burt.

Backbench Business Committee

Natascha Engel Excerpts

Monday 12th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

I will keep my comments brief, in order that Back Benchers are given a bit more time.

I am deeply disappointed that the Government have tabled this motion without consulting either the Procedure Committee or the Backbench Business Committee. It goes absolutely against the spirit of the sort of relationship that has grown up between the Backbench Business Committee and the Government. The fact that motions affecting the Backbench Business Committee’s operation have been tabled while the Procedure Committee is still looking at that matter in detail and asking people far and wide, inside the House and beyond, for their ideas means that today’s debate cannot be as informed as it should be. Furthermore, to allocate one and a half hours for such a debate is laughable. Members are being asked to make decisions on matters that require much more information.

The Backbench Business Committee will produce its report either this week or next week. The Procedure Committee could work much more quickly on its review of the operation of the Backbench Business Committee if it needed to, and could report very quickly on it. If the Government were willing to withdraw the motion, I am certain that we would benefit from a debate informed by the end-of-term report from the Backbench Business Committee and by the Procedure Committee’s report, well before the end of the Session and timed to coincide with the elections to the Backbench Business Committee. Will the Minister tell us whether the Government are willing to consider withdrawing the motion and having a debate on these matters on another day? I am sure that the Chairman of the Procedure Committee, the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight) and I would work very quickly to produce our Committees’ reports in order to facilitate such a debate.

The amendments tabled in my name deal with the minority parties. This matter has been a running sore to the Backbench Business Committee. We are, by accident, a Committee of Members from England. We have three members from the east midlands region, and we are an entirely English Committee. We could be far more representative not only of Back Benchers but of the country as a whole if the minority parties were more actively involved.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

As a Member from Wales, I endorse what the hon. Lady has just said. She will be aware that the leading characters from Wales came to her to put their case for a St David’s day debate, and I am happy to report that the English members of the Committee yielded to that request, but it took two years to achieve that. The point that she makes about geographic spread is an important one.

--- Later in debate ---

[Natascha Engel]

Indeed. Such representation would give added flavour to the Backbench Business Committee.

[Pete Wishart]

It is more than that; the Committee must be for Back Benchers of the whole House, not just those of the Government parties and the Labour Opposition. There are five other political parties in the House; surely they should be represented if it is to be a Back-Bench Committee of the whole House.

[Natascha Engel]

That goes to the heart of the amendments. The minority parties are Back Benchers. They can never really be Front Benchers. It is very unlikely that we will ever see a member of one of the minority parties at the Dispatch Box.

Using the principle of proportionality is also wrong. The Committee has four members from the Conservative party, one from the Liberal Democrats and two from the Labour party, plus the Chair, who has a casting vote. An additional member from one of the minority parties would not automatically lose the Government their majority—certainly not during a coalition Government, and I see no reason why we should not consider expanding the number of members of the Committee if there were not a coalition.

The Backbench Business Committee is different from other Select Committees, in that it represents all Back Benchers of the House. At the moment, however, we do that very poorly by not having representation from the minority parties. The Procedure Committee’s report of October 2011 recommended that these changes be made, and that an additional place on the Backbench Business Committee be created in order that the minority parties be given representation. The right hon. Member for East Yorkshire has just made the point that, after the Procedure Committee had reported, we could table motions to amend what had been decided today. That is sort of true, but only the Government are able to table motions that affect the Backbench Business Committee. Quite rightly, we as a Backbench Business Committee cannot table motions that affect our own operation. What the right hon. Gentleman says is rather difficult unless it is within the Government’s agreement that the motions are tabled. That worries me. That brings me back to asking why the Government cannot simply wait until the Procedure Committee has produced its report and the Backbench Business Committee has told the House about its experiences in the one and a half years of its existence.

Let me briefly support the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) that deals with the issue of the whole House participating in the elections. This goes back to the point that the Backbench Business Committee is somewhat different from other Select Committees, in that it represents all Back Benchers. Therefore, the whole House should have a say in who it wants on the Backbench Business Committee.

[Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con)]

The hon. Lady and I both served on the Wright Committee, and I am sure that she remembers, as I do, that it was very much that Committee’s deliberate intention to achieve a cultural change in the House of Commons. Part of that was precisely the issue of the Backbench Business Committee being elected by and representing the whole House, not individual parties.

--- Later in debate ---

[Natascha Engel]

That is absolutely right. We should not throw away that important principle today. I am worried by the fact that the Government have tabled these motions. There has been inadequate time to look at them and inadequate time to explore all the different consequences arising from them. We are dealing with something that is not broken, so I do not understand why the Government want to fix it.

[Mr Leigh]

Apparently, some people in the Government think that under the current arrangements the Labour party can gang up to ensure that so-called troublemakers are on this Committee. Is that not to politicise the whole issue? The fact is that members of the Committee are independent. They are not troublemakers; they are independent-minded people. We should keep party politics out of this.

[Natascha Engel]

That goes back to my point that the Backbench Business Committee is not broken. We do not vote on party lines and the discussions we have are not on party lines. Its members are independent-minded. They are members of different political parties, but the wider issue is about how we best represent Back Benchers as a whole. We currently have a spread on the Committee, with every type of Back Bencher in today’s Parliament represented.

I urge Members to vote for the amendment that includes the minority parties as full voting members. We do not want them to be there only as a result of some kind of patronage of the Chair which allows them to attend and listen to the Committee’s words of wisdom. We want them to have full membership and full voting rights. I also urge support for the amendment tabled to allow the entire House to vote on who should represent Back Benchers on the Backbench Business Committee.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Business of the House

Natascha Engel Excerpts

Thursday 8th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I understand that in my constituency the firm makes bicycle racks, in which I have a professional interest, and I applaud not only what it does in making bicycle racks but, as importantly, what it is doing for apprenticeships. There are more than 400,000 apprenticeships this year, and as I have said before we all have a role to play in encouraging employers in our constituencies to do exactly what my hon. Friend is doing in hers, and in encouraging young people who are currently unemployed to take up the apprenticeships that become available, financed in part by the Government.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

The Leader of the House has announced a debate on Monday about the operation of the Backbench Business Committee, motions for which were placed on the Order Paper on Tuesday night. He will be aware that today is the closing date in a call for evidence by the Procedure Committee, which is also reviewing the Backbench Business Committee’s operation. The Backbench Committee itself is producing a report imminently on its operations over the past year and a half, so why have the Government chosen to hold a debate now about its operation, rather than waiting so that the House might be much better informed and come to its conclusions just a little later?

[Sir George Young]

I very much welcome the review of the Backbench Business Committee, which is being undertaken by the Procedure Committee, and of course we will want to respond to its report in due course. The answer to the question that the hon. Lady poses, “Why are we debating the matter on Monday rather than waiting for the report?”, is set out in the Procedure Committee’s Ninth report of Session 2010/12. It made several recommendations for changes to the Backbench Business Committee, and the Government in their response said:

“The Government propose to allow time for consideration of proposals to this effect towards the end of the current Session.”

In other words, if Members want to make changes to take effect at the beginning of the next Session, they cannot wait for the report of the Procedure Committee, because that will come too late. That is why we are putting the motions before the House on Monday. It will be for the House to decide what to do with them, but if we want to make changes, we are going to have to do so quite soon; we cannot wait for the Procedure Committee’s report.

Business of the House

Natascha Engel Excerpts

Thursday 23rd February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I understand the concern that my hon. Friend has expressed. I have just announced the business for next week and, sadly, there is not an opportunity to raise the specific issue to which he has referred. I cannot guarantee to find time in the near future for his request, but there may be other opportunities for him to raise European business on the Floor of the House, as he has done on many occasions in recent weeks. Of course, there is also the opportunity of debates in Westminster Hall or through the Backbench Business Committee in this Chamber.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House take this opportunity to announce to the House that instead of having a pre-recess Adjournment debate on 27 March, the debate will be on assisted dying? Will he also reassure the House that this is going to be an exception rather than a rule? We intend to preserve the pre-recess Adjournment debate but we thought that this issue was of such importance that we wanted to give Members and those outside time to organise for it.

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. There is no need for me to make the announcement because she has just done so. It is up to the Backbench Business Committee to reconfigure the days that we have allocated to it and there is no obligation on the Committee to adhere to the pattern of days adopted by previous Governments. She has the flexibility and I understand the strength of feeling on both sides of the House regarding the motion she has mentioned. I am sure that a debate on that issue is an intelligent use of time.

Business of the House

Natascha Engel Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I cannot promise a debate along the lines that my hon. Friend has requested. However, as Leader of the House, I have regular discussions with the chief executive and the chairman of IPSA, as it would be appropriate for me to do, given the responsibilities that I hold.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

We have just heard mention, both from the Leader of the House and his shadow, of the fact that international women’s day falls on 8 March and St David’s day falls on 1 March. The Backbench Business Committee received bids for both of those debates on Tuesday. The Leader of the House touches on a sore point, because it is impossible for the Committee to allocate those debates without the Government allocating us time to do so. Will he commit to meet our successor Committee in the new Session to divide up those set-piece debates on events that fall on specific days every year? Alternatively—this is much more preferable—will he allocate a set day every week in the Chamber that is specifically reserved for Back-Bench time?

[Sir George Young]

We will, of course, seek to accommodate this year the specific events to which the hon. Lady has referred: the St David’s day and international women’s day debates. On her second point, I am sympathetic to the idea of pre-allocating to the Backbench Business Committee a certain number of days each year and then allocating it a day in order to honour a commitment in respect of international women’s day, the pre-EU Council debates, St David’s day and other such events. I would be happy to have that particular dialogue. On the concept of a fixed day each week, the Wright Committee looked at that but did not actually recommend it. That Committee said that that there would be a risk of rigidity if we went down that road, so at the moment I say no to a fixed day but I am happy to try to accommodate her in the way that she indicated.

Oral Answers to Questions

Natascha Engel Excerpts

Thursday 9th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Heath]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman and his Committee for their work on this matter. No system in the world is incapable of refinement and improvement by looking at it over time and I am grateful for the points he makes. I did not think there was any doubt in what we have consistently said. We have said that e-petitions are eligible for debate once they reach the threshold, not that they will necessarily be debated. The system is working well, but the Procedure Committee has made some fair points on how we can better manage the process in the House. We will certainly respond to the Committee as soon as is appropriate.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

The Procedure Committee report was not only excellent; it was done in record time to ensure that we could have a timely debate and to ensure that the e-petition system works as well as it possibly can. Will the Government ensure that their response to the Committee’s e-petitions report comes before 6 March, so that we can consider it in the Hansard Society seminar?

[Mr Heath]

We will do our best. The seminar to which the hon. Lady refers will help to inform the work of the Procedure Committee. The results of the seminar plus the Government’s response will—I hope—enable something to be laid before the House that will improve how we deal with e-petitions. With co-ordination and co-operation from everybody involved, we will ensure we get the right response.

Business of the House

Natascha Engel Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I am sure that the House has sympathy for my hon. Friend’s constituents who were murdered. As for the Lithuanian, who I think has taken his own life, I understand that police inquiries are continuing, so it is difficult for me to comment specifically on the case. I will, however, raise the general issue of the sharing of information about criminals with the Home Secretary, and will ask her to write to my hon. Friend giving the details and specifying the concordats that have been entered into ensuring that relevant information is shared between countries.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

Obviously I do not want to sound dismissive, but despite the ample amount of time that has been available in the Chamber recently, the Government have chosen not to allocate it to Back Benchers, choosing instead to allocate it to general debates both today and next Thursday on subjects that they have chosen themselves. Meanwhile, Back Benchers have suggested to our Backbench Business Committee almost 20 debates on important matters such as assisted dying, the future of social care and the state of mental health services. I know that the Leader of the House is aware—because he himself has written to me about it—that there are three outstanding e-petitions which have secured 100,000 signatures. He has asked me to consider them for debate without giving me any time for them to be debated. Will he please stop bed blocking Back-Bench time, so that we can meet our basic commitments to Back Benchers and to e-petitioners?

[Sir George Young]

I commend what the hon. Lady said at the beginning of the Back-Bench debate on the European Council a week ago, when she made clear that responsibility for finding time for pre-European Council debates fell within the remit of her Committee, but of course the Government will do what they can to ensure that dates are available for such debates. She will have seen the recommendation in the Procedure Committee’s report that on Monday afternoons Westminster Hall should be used specifically for debates on e-petitions, with which I have some sympathy. The Government will respond in due course, and that will provide a partial solution to the issue that she has raised.

I am aware of the pressure on the hon. Lady’s Committee, and we will try to accommodate her with some extra time between now and the end of the Session. We are committed to providing 35 days in a Session; so far we have provided at least 49, and we hope to provide more. A number of days were provided before the Committee was set up, which were used for general debates. I sympathise with the hon. Lady over the problem that confronts her, and I will do what I can to help.

Business of the House

Natascha Engel Excerpts

Thursday 26th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. A good number of e-mails have found their way into my inbox. Of course I understand the strong feelings that have been expressed by our constituents about what happened last Friday. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris), who did heroic work in bringing the Bill forward and enabling the House to consider it last Friday in a form of which the Government approved. The Government supported the Bill as it passed through. I have considered my right hon. Friend’s suggestion of providing more Government time. I do not think that that would do the trick, because it would not be this Bill that would get more time, were more time to be provided. There is also the question of whether the Bill would have time to get through another place. My view is that at the beginning of the next Session, somebody should pick up the baton from my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point and try another private Member’s Bill. I remind the House that in previous Parliaments this has always been a subject for private Members’ Bills. I think that that is the right way to make progress.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

Last week the Procedure Committee published its excellent report on e-petitions. Together with the Backbench Business Committee and the Hansard Society, we will hold a seminar on the future of e-petitions on 6 March. Will the Government therefore indicate when they will produce a response to the report so that we can have a debate in the Chamber in which the whole House can express an opinion on the future of e-petitions?

On the subject of time, the Backbench Business Committee is overwhelmed with demands for debates on issues such as metal theft, daylight saving and UK Trade & Investment—very important subjects that we do not have the time to allocate for debate. Perhaps the Government can help the Backbench Business Committee and the House to bring forward some of those topics for debate by allocating more time to the Committee while we are waiting for business to come from the other House.

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. The important subjects she mentions, which hon. Members want to debate, are referred to as “thumb twiddling” by the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle). I welcome the report from the Procedure Committee. I am broadly sympathetic to its proposals, which build on the success of e-petitions. I note what she said about the time of her seminar, which I greatly welcome. The Government will seek to respond to the e-petition debate shortly after that seminar.

Standing Orders provide that a minimum of 35 days should be provided in each Session, and so far we have provided 49. However, I recognise the demand to which she refers, and we will seek to respond to her bid for more time between now and the end of the Session.

Business of the House

Natascha Engel Excerpts

Thursday 15th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

My hon. Friend’s constituent is fortunate to have such a proactive Member of Parliament championing her interests in the House. He might know that legislation has now gone through making it illegal to clamp cars on private space. I think that it comes into effect in March next year.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

There is only one full year before the Government have to introduce proposals on the establishment of a House business committee. Will the Leader of the House therefore consider early next year establishing a time-limited Select Committee like the Wright Committee, on which he and I served, to consider proposals for what such a House business committee would look like? It could inform the Government and the House on how to move forward.

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady, who reminds the House of the commitment in the coalition agreement to establish such a Committee by the third year. She has proposed one way of implementing that commitment. There might be other ways, but I can assure her that I am actively considering how we deliver on that commitment, and at the appropriate time I would very much like to involve her in those discussions.