Children and Social Work Bill [Lords]

Debate between Neil Carmichael and Stella Creasy

2nd reading: House of Commons & Money resolution: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons & Ways and Means resolution: House of Commons
Monday 5th December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

The Bill is a very good one. It has been amended in the House of Lords, and we will need to consider the implications of that in due course. The central points of the Bill are well founded. I am particularly impressed with the theme of reflecting the work of the Munro report and improving the capacity of social workers to use their own judgment, rather than simply rely on box ticking. That is an appropriate theme for the Bill and it explains why the regulatory structure introduced by the Bill will help. It is through such a regulatory system that the ability to make judgments will be made easier.

It is important for social workers to have a clear eye on what professional regulation is all about. The profession should be operating, of course, at arm’s length, which is usefully stressed in the Bill. A register of social workers makes a lot of sense, because one of the things that we must do is enhance professionalism in social work. That is where I have some difference with the Government, in that I think that ultimately we should have a professional body for social workers. The Education Select Committee made it clear in a recent report that it thought there was a strong case for such a body, and I think there is an appetite for that beyond the Chamber. I urge the Government to have an open mind, and I suggest that they continue to send signals that they would like a professional body to be established. I also think that an independent review of proceedings in five years’ time makes a huge amount of sense, because that is a realistic timescale.

There is, however, one area in which I think the Bill needs some additions, or at least some recognitions. Given that more than 70,000 children are effectively children of the state and that so many more children are subjected to sexual abuse, and given the historical sexual abuse that has taken place, our failure to place the issue of sex and relationships education front and centre is becoming increasingly obvious. The Government must embark on a full consultation to provide reassurance that something will be done about this most important matter. I ask the Minister to confirm that there will be a realistic and meaningful consultation on the introduction of statutory SRE.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman has raised that point. May I ask him to back Labour amendments to make SRE part of the safeguarding of all children, so that we can finally ensure that we keep every young person in the country safe?

[Neil Carmichael]

To an extent, that will depend on what the amendments are, and whether the Government make it clear that they will organise a full consultation. However, I note what the hon. Lady has said, and I am sure that the Government have noted what I have just said. We need a full, meaningful and comprehensive consultation on this important matter.

Five Select Committee Chairs sent a letter to the Secretary of State. Obviously, I organised one of them. The others came from the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee—Members may well ask what it has to do with SRE, and I can explain if they wish me to—the Women and Equalities Committee, the Health Committee, and the Home Affairs Committee. All those Committees effectively said precisely the same thing: we need SRE to be introduced statutorily in our schools.

Finally, I want to say something about latitude for local government. The Select Committee did some work relating to children in care, particularly those with mental health difficulties. When we went to Trafford, it was strikingly obvious to us that through co-operation with other agencies, coterminous structures and strong leadership, the council was delivering outstanding results. Its ability to benefit from strategic leadership at the top end, operational leadership within the structures themselves, and a coterminous relationship not only with its own organisations and related agencies but with the police force was clearly extraordinarily beneficial for working practices and the way in which decisions were made and responses given on issues connected with children in care and children at risk. Therefore, the Government are right to move towards giving local government more latitude in the way it formulates its structures to deliver outcomes.

In short, there is a lot to be said for the Bill. It is critical that we acknowledge that some form of professional body will be good for social workers and social work generally. The absence of SRE is a pity. It is important, however, that the Government give the firm commitment I have asked for. Generally speaking, the Government are going in the right direction on local government.

Finance (No. 3) Bill

Debate between Neil Carmichael and Stella Creasy

Monday 4th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Stella Creasy]

I very much hope that there will be cross-party agreement, but, as I will explain, I fear that that consensus is being broken for the purpose of choreographing coalition conferences. That worries me greatly. I hope the hon. Gentleman will agree that when so many people are suffering by having to pay the high costs of credit that companies charge, any delay is unacceptable, and I hope he will vote accordingly.

I know that we are not alone in wanting action as soon as possible. The campaign has the widespread backing not just of MPs or policy makers but of debt experts, campaigners and members of the public. They are deeply concerned that doing nothing to regulate these firms is feeding a growing crisis of personal debt for families across the country, and they want action.

I fear that I am going to end up condemning the Government today, because we are debating not whether to act, or whether regulating for a cap on the cost of credit would be effective, but when to do so: debating when, not if, is unforgivable.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

I am concerned that the action that the hon. Lady recommends might well drive people into the worse position of having to appeal to really rather unpleasant loan sharks. That must be the great worry.

[Stella Creasy]

The evidence on which that presumption —that myth—is based is very uncertain. I would argue that there is a strong parallel with the debates on the minimum wage and the fear that its introduction would drive companies out of business. We now know that that is simply not the case. Evidence shows that a cap on the cost of credit would lead to a fairer deal for consumers, for which we are arguing today. It is important that we get it right, given the number of people involved in the market. I ask Members to support the new clause because it proposes regulatory action now, given the consensus that there is a problem. It states that it covers

“other measures relevant to the high cost credit lending sector that may prevent consumer detriment.”

By consumer detriment, we mean lending that drags people into debt.

We might all agree that there is a problem in the market, and that something needs to be done, but the coalition’s choreography is getting in the way, and I fear that our constituents will lose out. In making the case for Government Members to change their mind about the political fancy footwork and instead dance with us to action now, I want to set out what the problem is, what is causing it, what could be done about it and why doing nothing, or even delaying doing anything, should not be an option.

This question is important when we are debating a Finance Bill, because we can use taxation and regulation to deal with social and economic problems. For example, we could tackle problem drinking by raising taxes on high-strength alcoholic drinks. Indeed, in Committee, the Economic Secretary to the Treasury said:

“We can see that such a measure will have a disproportionate impact on tackling problem drinking, because the change in taxation will make it less attractive for producers to make such strong products.”––[Official Report, Finance (No. 3) Public Bill Committee, 17 May 2011; c. 166.]

By the same principle, the Treasury could tackle problem lending by penalising companies that fail to meet certain standards in their provision of consumer credit.

The problems in the lending market make the issues clear. The UK has one of the highest levels of personal debt in the world. As of April last year, Britain owed more than £1.4 billion in private debt. As the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) pointed out, borrowing money is sometimes essential, whether to enable someone to pay for training or a house, or to start a business. Indeed, borrowing is critical for our future economic recovery. I am therefore saying not that we want to stop people borrowing, but that we want to stop problem borrowing. However, the current signs are that personal debt is on the rise, and that is a problem.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stella Creasy]

I agree absolutely with my hon. Friend. There is no ceiling on this market, which means that company rates are going up, not down. We also know about the lack of competition with other sections of the market. Provident owns 6% of the market. In 2004, the Office of Fair Trading referred the doorstep lending industry to the Competition Commission and, in 2006, its report confirmed the lack of competition. As Citizens Advice argues, however, the fact that these problems are getting worse, not better shows that the measures suggested in 2006 have not worked and that it is time to strengthen the intervention we make in this market.

Although I am an avid supporter of the credit union movement, it cannot at this moment present any kind of alternative to this market within any relevant timetable. Credit union membership is growing by 8% a year, but the payday lending industry alone is three times as big as it was two years ago. Credit union lending therefore remains relatively small scale, equivalent to just 5.9% in value terms of the high-cost commercial sector. As a consequence, it is unlikely to exercise any real competitive restraints on the prices in the high-cost credit sector.

With all the signs that this market is growing exponentially, this new clause and the review it recommends would allow us to look at a number of issues on how to tackle it effectively. First, it could consider excess profits—

[Neil Carmichael]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Stella Creasy]

Briefly, as I am conscious of the time.

[Neil Carmichael]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way. I think that credit unions are really important. I have promoted them in my own constituency and I will continue to do so. I have joined one myself to demonstrate that it is something that we should all think about. Surely it would be a good idea to put out a more positive message about the role credit unions can play and encourage people to start thinking about being responsible in the management of their finances through the use of credit unions.

[Stella Creasy]

The hon. Gentleman is being a little unfair to accuse me of not putting out a positive message about credit unions, given that I worked long and hard to set up the Waltham Forest community credit union and to secure it more than 4,000 members from my borough. My point is that when only 2% of the British public are part of a credit union, it cannot be the answer to the problems caused by these companies. The question is how to get the right mix, and I believe that regulation needs to be part of that mix. Of course extending access to affordable credit is part of the solution, but it will take decades for credit unions to provide a serious alternative to these companies from which people are borrowing and getting into debt with now.

Consumer Credit and Debt Management

Debate between Neil Carmichael and Stella Creasy

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Stella Creasy]

My hon. Friend makes an eloquent point. Indeed, I am grateful for the support that we have had from Church Action on Poverty for the campaign and for the proposals before the House.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that the Bills of Sale Act 1878, which enables lenders to go into people’s homes and take property, should be reviewed, because that is an unintended consequence of the Act?

[Stella Creasy]

The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point which Members might want to cover during the debate.

Most importantly, we are looking at the principle of how we could stop people getting into such high levels of debt because of the rates they are charged for the borrowing that they undertake.

Consumer Credit Regulation

Debate between Neil Carmichael and Stella Creasy

Tuesday 9th November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Stella Creasy]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right and makes exactly the point I wanted to mention about how important it is to support and promote credit unions. There is certainly scope for British credit unions to grow, and we are behind other nations in that respect. In Ireland, 50% of the population are members of a credit union. In America and Canada, the figure is around 40%. In Australia and New Zealand it is around 25%, but it is closer to 2% in the UK. Despite that, at least 86% of people are eligible to join a credit union in England, Scotland and Wales on the basis of where they live and the working areas that are served by credit unions. That is not just in Bramley—my excellent Waltham Forest community credit union has more than 4,000 customers.

There is clearly interest in accessing credit through such bodies. Membership of credit unions in Britain increased by 35% between March 2008 and March 2010. The challenge we face is how to scale up credit unions extremely quickly, given the CSR and the level of debt that we are facing. The question of the future of the post office network provides therefore both an opportunity and a threat to some of the excellent work that can be done in this field, which several hon. Members have mentioned.

The previous Government proposed—this is being promoted by the Association of British Credit Unions—connecting up the credit union movement and post offices, which would allow the integration of both services. A one-off investment would be needed to provide the common back-office platform that would allow the technical integration of the two services. In turn, that would allow post offices to offer a wider range of services, including those vital instant small-scale loans, as well as access to a Post Office card account. Staff at post offices could carry out transactions in real time, checking account details and giving instant pre-approved loans that were affordable and convenient. Credit union customers would be able to access their accounts and make payments through the post office. In turn, a transaction fee would be generated by each transaction that would provide a new stream of revenue for the Post Office. That could open up access to affordable credit and help consumers by breaking down the monopoly on supply. It is no wonder that the Finance and Leasing Association has briefed against that proposal and argued that it could restrict consumer choice and hinder competition, which is something that many legal loan sharks seem to think is okay for their specialist services.

Does the Minister stand with the loan sharks or the credit unions? What commitment will his Department make to fund the back-office integration of post offices and credit unions so that the post office network can provide credit union services and increase access to affordable credit for consumers? Those problems require us not only to legislate, but to look at what we can do for the families involved. We must not only clamp down on the exploitation practised by the firms, but extend access to affordable credit through credit unions.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

Has the hon. Lady considered the implications of the Bill of Sale Act 1878, which effectively enables loan sharks to get away with much of their inappropriate behaviour? We all agree that we should not tolerate loan sharks—they are in my constituency as well as in hers and others.

[Stella Creasy]

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair comment. The point behind today’s debate is that there is overwhelming evidence that we can and should intervene, and there is certainly concern about the situation among Labour Members. The credit review offers us, if anything, an opportunity to look at how we can intervene and how the law could be amended. The fact that that is not happening is a travesty, so I hope that coalition Members will challenge the Government to expand the scope of the credit review so that it covers these issues.