CSC: Redundancies

Neil Gray Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2017 Westminster Hall

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Sir Edward. I congratulate my UK Parliament football club teammate, the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Toby Perkins), on securing this debate. I do not know about him, but it is certainly a while since I have been able to turn out for the team, and it appears results have been improving in that time—I am sure there is no correlation.

The hon. Gentleman’s excellent and powerful contribution brought a very important issue to the attention of hon. Members. He highlighted well the impact that the redundancies will have on his constituency and across the public sector. In Chesterfield, as he stated clearly, where CSC moves in, jobs move out. The size of the new company and its likely dominance of the market will therefore be of concern. Equally concerning is CSC’s lack of contact with its local Member of Parliament, particularly when it was about to become the subject of this debate. The hon. Gentleman raised some very concerning issues for the Minister to address.

[Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)]

Since I am a Newcastle Member of Parliament, it may seem that my constituents are not directly affected by this debate. However, I have been contacted by a constituent who is employed by the company, is very concerned about the news and wants some reassurance from the Minister about the support that will be provided for those being made redundant. They may not all be at specific employment sites; they may be employed remotely around the country.

[Neil Gray]

I thank the hon. Lady for raising a salient point, which relates to some questions that I will put to the Minister later.

The hon. Member for Preston (Mr Hendrick) highlighted the fact that the behaviour of CSC in Preston suggests that it knew about the recently announced redundancies long before it notified staff. He also said that 20% of staff had been made redundant this year alone, which is a very concerning trend for a large Government contractor.

As the hon. Member for Chesterfield said, CSC is headquartered in Texas and provides IT services for a large chunk of UK Government organisations, including Network Rail, the Metropolitan police, the NHS, the civil nuclear fuels and the Departments he mentioned, particularly the DWP. It is clearly an important public sector contractor that works in sensitive organisations, so the current issues have far-reaching consequences. At the end of this month, CSC will merge with HP Enterprise Services to form DXC Technology and the new company is likely to be the largest single IT services supplier by some margin. In the run-up to the merger, CSC has announced two redundancy programmes under which 1,600 out of just under 5,500 staff will be out of the company by the end of March. Those are the latest cuts at a firm that has had nine separate redundancy rounds in this financial year. In parallel, it is also running a contractor reduction programme from a starting point of around 700 contractors.

Unite, the largest union that serves CSC employees, has stated that it believes that

“the company is critically endangering its own ability to continue to provide these services.”

It appears that many of the jobs will be moved abroad. That alone should be of concern to the UK Government, and not just because CSC is an important public sector contractor. As we approach the Brexit Britain landscape, how will we ensure that such jobs are not only retained but attracted here? The job cuts do not appear to be about the performance of the business in the UK, which appears to be doing well, as briefings have outlined. The UK Government must be concerned about the implications for the public sector organisations that rely on CSC services.

I hope the Minister will advise us whether the Government are concerned about the speed of these cuts; what support they will provide to try to protect as many of the threatened jobs as possible; what support they will provide to anyone who is made redundant, as the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) asked; and what contingency plans they have to deal with the impact of the cuts on the services provided to major public sector bodies.

Draft Important Public Services (Health) Regulations 2017 Draft Important Public Services (Border Security) Regulations 2017 Draft Important Public Services (Fire) Regulations 2017

Neil Gray Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2017 General Committees

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

Yesterday, when we discussed other areas covered by similar instruments, I asked the Minister what direct discussions her Government had had with Ministers in the Scottish Government and other devolved Administrations. Although she could not provide an answer then about direct contact, has she had a chance, 24 hours since, to check up on what consultation has taken place?

[Margot James]

I can confirm that Ministers in what was the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills did have discussions with their counterparts in the Scottish Government.

As I was saying, strike action in important public services in the health, border security and fire sectors can have a significant impact on the public. That is why we have introduced a 40% approval threshold, which is to apply to important public services such as health, border security and fire, in addition to the requirement for a 50% turnout threshold.

[Margot James]

This is not a blanket coverage of every worker and every job description in the public service categories that we are debating. The regulations pertain to listed job descriptions within those important sectors. They do not encompass every single worker; they encompass workers whose work has a direct impact on the public in those sectors. If the hon. Gentleman wants a more specific answer on exact job categories, I can provide that, but not at this juncture.

During the passage of the Trade Union Bill last year, the Government consulted on the services within the public service categories set out in the legislation that should be subject to the 40% threshold and on how the threshold should operate in practice. We analysed more than 200 responses, reviewed the available evidence on the impact of strike action across different public services and listened to stakeholders’ views. The Government response to the consultation was published in January last year, when we also published the draft regulations. The substance of those draft regulations was discussed in Parliament during the passage of the Trade Union Bill. The regulations limit the application of the threshold to those services in the health, border security and fire sectors where there is the most compelling evidence of the impact of strike action. The regulations will ensure that the scope of strike action is proportionate.

What does that mean for the sectors affected? The pressing social need that we are addressing in the health sector is the risk to life or injury to the public in the event of industrial action. We have therefore focused the impact of the threshold where reduced service levels can have the most immediate impact on the lives and safety of patients and the public. That is why the regulations cover emergency and urgent health services. That includes—this goes some way to responding to the hon. Member for Glasgow South West’s question— ambulance staff, accident and emergency medical staff in hospitals, services that are provided in high-dependency units and intensive care in hospitals, and psychiatric, obstetric and midwifery services provided in hospitals for conditions that require immediate attention to prevent serious injury, illness or loss of life.

In the fire sector, our aim again is to protect the public against the risk to life or injury. In the light of that, we have focused on firefighting services, including co-ordination of the emergency response, because those services are critical to ensuring that fires are dealt with promptly and effectively to protect the public.

[Neil Gray]

The Minister rightly talks about the protection that workers in these sectors provide for all of us. They risk their lives and dedicate their lives for us on a day-to-day basis in all the sectors we are discussing. Given the dedication, the risk and what they are putting on the line for us, can she explain how the restrictions to the capacity of their right to strike are proportionate?

[Margot James]

I think I have already explained that, but if the hon. Gentleman requires me to restate it, we are seeking to rebalance the rights of those workers to strike with the rights of the public, particularly in the case he mentioned. For patients facing critical illness or emergencies, those two rights have to be balanced, and that is what the legislation is all about.

In the Border Force, we are addressing the significant risks to public safety in the event of disruption to border controls. We have focused on services in respect of the entry and exit of people and goods, as those are central to the carrying out of checks and to preventing illicit commodities and other threats to our security from entering the country.

Members of the public will agree that strikes in those important public services should take place only when there is a strong level of support and a justifiable mandate. I hope I have reassured Members that the regulations are justified and proportionate to our objective.

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[Chris Stephens]

I agree. The point is well made, and there is a distinction that must be made clear. The Government always seem confused in these debates, and about trade unionism in general, because they seem to think that after a ballot result is announced, whether the turnout is low or not, trade union activists, including full-time officials, develop Jedi-like powers to persuade other workers. It is as if the trade union officials wave a hand and say, “This is the strike you are looking for.” That is not what happens in trade union organised workplaces; I can say that as someone who was a trade union activist for 20 years before my election.

[Neil Gray]

Following on from the point made by the hon. Member for Windsor about days lost to strike action in these areas, although he used the word “alarming”, my understanding is that those figures have improved. Given my hon. Friend’s extensive experience in this area, does he think that these regulations will go any way towards improving workplace relations between trade unions and employers?

Draft Important Public Services (Education) Regulations 2017 Draft Important Public Services (Transport) Regulations 2017

Neil Gray Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2017 General Committees

[Margot James]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Evans.

The Trade Union Act 2016 modernises the UK’s industrial relations framework to better support an effective and collaborative approach to resolving industrial disputes. The Act restores a level of fairness to our industrial relations regime and gives effect to the Government’s manifesto commitments. It ensures that strikes can happen only as a result of a clear positive decision by those entitled to vote, balancing the interests of unions with the interests of the majority of people who rely on important public services.

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

The important public services that we are discussing today—education and transport—are devolved competences. What consultation has there been with the Scottish Government?

[Margot James]

I will come back to that point, if the hon. Gentleman permits.

The Act received Royal Assent in May 2016. Today we are debating two statutory instruments that implement a 40% threshold for ballot mandate approval for important public services in the education and transport sectors. As well as the requirement that 50% of union members who are eligible to vote do so, 40% of all eligible members will have to agree with the proposed mandate. We propose that the 40% threshold for the two sectors comes into force on 1 March.

--- Later in debate ---

[Margot James]

As I do not dwell on my own electoral circumstances, I cannot give an absolutely accurate answer to the hon. Lady’s question. However, I do not regard that as a parallel. That sort of question was raised when we debated the Bill last year. Everybody gets a say in the election of an individual MP to represent a constituency. It is not just a vote for one or another candidate; a range of candidates are on offer. Everyone who is going to be affected by the eventual outcome of such an election gets a say. In the cases we are describing, the non-striking workforce and—more important for this argument—the public, who require and depend upon these services, as they do in the hon. Lady’s own constituency, get no say whatsoever.

This is an attempt not to deny strike action or the validity of it, but to rebalance the interests involved. That is why we have introduced a 40% approval threshold to apply to these important public services, in addition to the requirement for a 50% turnout. It is in the interests of the public to know that where they face disruption in these crucial services as a result of strike action, it is because union members have secured a democratic mandate. That is also important for union members who did not support the strike action.

The Government believe that the measures being put in place strike the right balance. During the passage of the Trade Union Bill last year, the Government consulted on which services within the public service categories set out in the Bill should be subject to the 40% threshold and on how the threshold should operate in practice. We analysed more than 200 responses, reviewed the available evidence for the impact of strike action across different public services and listened to stakeholder views.

At this point, I will answer the question from the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts on what consultation took place with the Scottish Government. The Government held a public consultation on these measures during the passage of the Bill, published skeleton regulations as part of the Government response and invited comments from all stakeholders and members of the public, including in Scotland.

[Neil Gray]

A public consultation is very different from one-to-one correspondence with a Minister. Will the Minister elaborate on whether any direct contact was made with the Scottish Government on these matters?

[Margot James]

I imagine it was, but as I was not the Minister responsible at the time I cannot confirm that categorically.

As I said, the Government believe that the measures being put place strike the right balance. During the passage of the Trade Union Bill last year, the Government consulted on which services within the public service categories set out in the Bill should be subject to the additional 40% threshold and on how the threshold should operate in practice. The Government response to the consultation was published in January last year, when we also published draft regulations. The substance of those was discussed in Parliament during the passage of the Trade Union Bill. The regulations we are introducing today limit the application of the threshold to those services where there is the most compelling evidence of the impact of strike action and ensure that its scope is proportionate.

What does that mean for the education and transport sectors affected? The Government aim to ensure that all children have the right to an education, so we have focused on teachers who work with pupils of a compulsory school age in state-funded institutions. That reflects the importance of those years for children’s education and the disproportionate impact on learning that strike action can have. In the transport sector, our priority is to ensure that large numbers of people can rely on the services they need every day to make important journeys as far as possible. We have therefore focused on passenger services, because strike action is more likely to have an adverse and immediate impact on people’s ability to go to work, school, college and important appointments. That is why the regulations cover passenger railway services, including the maintenance of trains and the network, and the signalling and control of the operation of the train network. The regulations will also cover any London local bus services, civil air traffic control services and airport and port security services.

Industrial Strategy Consultation

Neil Gray Excerpts

Monday 23rd January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Greg Clark]

I will, indeed. Talking about the life sciences in the north-west touches on one of the themes of the Green Paper, which is the interaction between sectors and places, and how we can build institutions that can encourage smaller businesses to benefit from the presence of a range of other businesses in that sector. We have further work to do, and my hon. Friend will be expert adviser on it.

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

A Green Paper should set out the Government’s ambitions in a particular policy area, and the central focus of an industrial strategy should be on jobs. I asked the Secretary of State on 13 December 2016 about the disability employment gap and how the industrial strategy could help to support the Government’s ambition to halve that gap by 2020. Will he explain why the words “disability” and “disabled” do not feature in the Green Paper?

[Greg Clark]

The Green Paper does mention the fact that we will set out further measures on employment policies. I have agreed with the hon. Gentleman in the past that, just as I said in relation to the question from the hon. Member for Livingston (Hannah Bardell), when people’s contribution is not adequately made use of, it is a loss and an injustice for not just the individuals concerned, but the whole of the country and the economy.

Oral Answers to Questions

Neil Gray Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

3. What his priorities are for the development of the Government’s industrial strategy.

[Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)]

6. What his priorities are for the development of the Government’s industrial strategy.

[The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Greg Clark)]

Our industrial strategy will help to build an economy that works for everyone. To do that, we will look to drive productivity and growth in all parts of the country. We have already set out steps to deliver this, including, as my hon. Friend the Minister for Universities, Science, Research and Innovation just said, significant funding announcements for science, research and development and infrastructure in the autumn statement.

[Neil Gray]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer, and I note that he said that the industrial strategy should work for everybody. The Office for Budget Responsibility projects that there will be an additional 500,000 new jobs by 2020, but even if all those jobs were taken up by disabled people, the disability employment gap would still not be halved. Can the Secretary of State explain how the industrial strategy will support achieving the Government’s commitment to halve the disability employment gap by 2020?

[Greg Clark]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. It is important that we close that gap, and the Government have made a firm commitment to doing so. He will see when we make our proposals—I hope that he will contribute to them—that part of our purpose is to ensure that people who may have been excluded from the labour market have the skills to enable them to prosper in the future.

Exiting the EU and Workers’ Rights

Neil Gray Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to take part in this debate today and, I have to say, to follow the right hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood). Although I have great respect for the way in which he delivered his speech, I could not agree with a word of it apart from when he said that democracy is on trial. It is indeed, and the people of Scotland are watching intently.

However, begging your patience, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to start with probably the only thing I have to say today that will garner support from Members on both sides of the House and offer my congratulations to Scotland’s own Andy Murray on securing top spot in the global tennis rankings. Becoming the first Scottish or British men’s No. 1 in the strongest era of the global sport of tennis is an incredible achievement. He will go down as not only one of the best Scottish or British sportsmen, but one of the greatest ever male tennis players. Well done, Andy; it is thoroughly well deserved.

We are now approaching five months since the EU referendum vote took place and we are still no clearer than on 23 June about what leaving the EU will actually mean. We still do not even know what role this House of Commons or the devolved Parliaments will have in invoking article 50. You would have thought that this would be a fairly simple matter of process that would be spelled out in a document before the referendum—perhaps something like a White Paper. Regardless of what people thought of the White Paper on Scottish independence—whether people agreed with the blueprint for an independent Scotland or not—it is clear that the people of Scotland were given far more information about what their vote would mean than happened in the EU referendum.

The Scottish Government produced a 700-page White Paper on Scottish independence. Whether this UK Government or the leave campaign, nobody came up with as much as a side of A4 on what would happen if the UK voted to leave—no plan, no blueprint, no vision. That is why it is impossible to tell what motivated a majority in the UK to vote to leave. Was it some idea of British nationalism? Was it immigration? Was it the whopper about £350 million a week for the NHS? Was it the ridiculous scaremongering from the former Chancellor or all the surviving former Prime Ministers? That is why when people talk about mandates and what the people want, it is clear the Prime Minister has a mandate to pursue exit from the EU, but she has no mandate over what that exit looks like, or to rip Scotland from EU institutions against its will. Indeed, the only detailed mandate that has been delivered to the Tories regarding Brexit is on the matter of the single market. It is spelled out in their 2015 manifesto, which states:

“We say: yes to the Single Market.”

It could not have been clearer, yet now we see prevarication.

What is clear is that far from having a cunning plan, this Government do not even have a seating plan. Where do they sit on the single market, on the customs union, on social security rights for UK nationals living in Europe, on the right to take advantage of the Erasmus scheme, or on Europol? Finally—although this list is far from exhaustive—where do they sit on the rights of EU workers to remain here in the UK?

[John Redwood]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Neil Gray]

I think you’ve had your say—[Interruption.] I think the right hon. Gentleman has had his say.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. That was a good correction just in time, but if I have to be strict with the Official Opposition Front Bench at this end of the Chamber, I have to be strict with the SNP Front Bench at that end as well.

[Neil Gray]

I perfectly understand.

Despite months of SNP campaigning for the security of EU workers based in the UK, they are still to be played as bargaining chips or negotiating pawns for at least another two years. We have no idea how EU workers in the UK will be treated after Brexit or what rights they will have. This is about not just morality and the fact that these workers and their families have chosen to live, work and contribute to the UK, but the economic value that they add. The Scottish Parliament’s Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee is currently taking evidence on the economic impact of exiting the European Union. A paper submitted by 4-consulting states that EU workers contribute £7.3 billion to the Scottish economy. That is why the SNP is so keen to see a different immigration system for Scotland, one that recognises not only the value of workers from other countries to our economy but how dependent many communities and sectors are on imported skilled labour. But this Government will not give Scotland those guarantees, and we have no guarantees about workers’ rights in general either. We are getting mixed messages from those on the Government Benches. We are being told by some that workers’ rights are a burden, with the right hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps) wanting a sunset clause, and others saying that we should implement only the workers’ rights that are practical.

[Michael Tomlinson]

As ever, the hon. Gentleman is making his case eloquently. However, did he fail to listen to the speech made by the Secretary of State, who set out clearly that all these rights will be transferred?

[Neil Gray]

For how long? In addition, does the Secretary of State carry the confidence of his Back Benchers? We are still to find that out. As I have said, so many of his colleagues have given us mixed messages about the so-called “burden” of EU workers’ rights on this country.

A substantial component of UK employment law is grounded in EU law, and where it exists it provides a minimum standard below which domestic employment cannot fall. Although some protections already existed in domestic law before being enhanced at an EU level, in many cases new categories of employment rights have been transposed into domestic law to comply with emerging EU obligations. Subject to the provisions of the EU withdrawal arrangement or a subsequent trade agreement, withdrawal from the EU would mean that the UK employment rights currently guaranteed by EU law would no longer be so guaranteed, which leaves us reliant on a Conservative Government to step up for workers.

A post-Brexit Government could also seek to amend or remove protections enshrined in EU law for UK workers. The House of Commons Library paper makes it clear that EU-derived employment rights that feature in primary legislation would be relatively safe from the effects of leaving the EU, but would be

“newly susceptible to the possibility of change.”

[Roger Mullin (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (SNP)]

On 27 October, I received a reply to a question about what would be in the great repeal Bill. Part of the answer was that on exit day existing rights would be enshrined, but subsequently it would be open to the Government and this Parliament to change those rights.

[Neil Gray]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, and the point he raises will fill workers up and down this land with dread, because it will be this Conservative Government who are going to be responsible for the workers’ rights that we all enjoy. The Library paper identifies the greatest risk as the uncertainty surrounding the protections in secondary legislation, which is where much employment law is contained. That is where Unison and others also see the greatest risk, with the right hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield having been reported as seeking a five-year sunset clause to the great repeal Bill. That would mean that all protections currently the subject of EU regulation would automatically expire, wreaking intended and unintended damage to hard-fought workers’ rights and, in turn, to the economy.

[Tom Brake]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that workers’ rights are most vulnerable in areas relating to agency workers and working time limits, particularly now that the Cabinet contains senior Members who have previously advocated a bonfire of the regulations on workers’ rights?

[Neil Gray]

Absolutely, and I will come on to those points later in my speech.

The Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 predates EU rules, but EU standards have led to the introduction of broad duties on employers to evaluate, avoid and reduce workplace risks. According to the TUC, the number of worker fatalities in the UK has declined significantly since EU directives were implemented. The Scottish National party continues to argue for better work conditions and fairer working environments. The protections for workers in insecure employment, including part-time workers, agency workers and those on fixed-term contracts, are enhanced by the EU.

[Kevin Foster]

The hon. Gentleman said that workers should be filled with dread, but should they not feel encouragement, as in so many areas this Parliament has legislated for standards that are higher than the EU minimum, not lower? There is no reason to believe that that will not continue, not least when people want to put election manifestos forward at election time.

[Neil Gray]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the recently passed Trade Union Act 2016 and hope that he will consider his comments in those terms.

In these challenging times, we have seen moves to zero-hours contracts across many industries, and conditions where workers are vulnerable to exploitation and being trapped in a cycle of low pay. EU TUPE rights introduced important protections for workers affected by contracting out, company buy-outs and even the privatisation of public services. Without those rights, employees in permanent, secure jobs could be placed into more uncertain contracts or have their terms and conditions reduced.

The UK must continue to comply with EU employment law in full, including new rights adopted within the EU, meaning that future Governments cannot remove rights at work. UK workers should not be denied any of the rights enjoyed by working people across Europe. New rights are already under discussion within the EU, such as protections for posted workers, improved rights for working parents and the European pillar of social rights, so UK workers could be excluded from these protections post-Brexit. The TUC has said that

“workers should benefit from the highest level of protection in the EU. It should not be possible for future governments to take the opportunity to compete with other countries on the basis of a race to the bottom on rights at work.”

It is female workers who stand to lose the most from Brexit. Alongside the European working time directive, we also now have protections over maternity leave and equal pay, and better protection from sexual harassment and from pregnancy or maternity discrimination. Women in the UK secured the right to equal pay for work of equal value thanks to the EU, and although there is still a long way to go to close the gender pay gap, the protections from the EU push the agenda forward, rather than backward. We have no idea of what is to come post-Brexit. Pregnant women and new mothers have been protected by day one rights and unfair dismissal rights, and by protection from discrimination. The right to paid time off to attend antenatal appointments is also now secure for pregnant women, keeping them in work. The parental leave directive allows parents to take up to 18 weeks’ unpaid leave to care for a child and protects workers who need to deal with family or domestic emergencies. A staggering 8.3 million working parents qualify for these rights in the UK.

Perhaps one opportunity I can see from Brexit is to discuss where the powers and responsibilities currently held at EU level will reside when the UK leaves. Obviously, we would expect the areas of devolved responsibility, such as agriculture and fisheries, to be automatically devolved, along with their substantial budgets, but I would like this to go further. Last year, during the Scotland Bill debates, we were told that we could not devolve employment law, but it makes perfect sense to do it post-Brexit. It is not just the rights currently enjoyed by workers that we can see being eroded; current and future events are likely to have a detrimental impact on working conditions and the quality of life of working families.

We have a perfect storm approaching for working families. We see the report from the Resolution Foundation today on the devastating impact of the benefit cap, but we also have cuts to universal credit work allowances coming down the line, a potentially devastating spike in inflation predicted to arrive next year, a massive drop in the pound and the potential threat to employment law post-Brexit. Employers and employees alike are demanding information, details and plans from this Government to provide security where there is currently significant insecurity and uncertainty.

This evening we are going to hear, as we have indeed already heard, Tory after Tory trump up—that pun was intended—that somehow they speak for workers in these isles and that somehow because it was Conservative Governments that brought in factories Acts in the 19th century, that absolves them of their most recent disastrous history. So let me remind the House that it was a Conservative Prime Minister who destroyed the lives and livelihoods of mineworkers with generations of unemployment; that it was a Conservative Chancellor who said at that Dispatch Box in 1991 that unemployment was a price “worth paying” for bringing down inflation; and it was those Government Members sitting opposite now who forced through the worst legislative attack on workers’ rights in living memory, in the form of the Trade Union Bill. So forgive me if my party and the people of Scotland do not trust any Tory government with workers’ rights.

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[Anna Soubry]

Yes, but the unions did not need to use EU law—that was the point. This country has rights through common law and in statute; it was just not a problem. I am somewhat concerned and slightly agitated about this matter. The very firm words from our excellent Secretary of State—I was delighted when he was appointed to his job—could not have been clearer. He said that all the rights that we have by virtue of our membership of the EU will be transferred into substantive British law. Which part of that do Opposition Members not understand? My right hon. Friend could not have been clearer. I absolutely do take his word, and indeed the Government’s word, on this. In many ways, this is a bit of an otiose debate—if I can put it in those terms—because I have no fear that any of the rights that have been accrued over decades by virtue of our membership of the EU will be diminished.

[Neil Gray]

rose—

[Anna Soubry]

And now, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, because this is a debate.

[Neil Gray]

I ask the right hon. Lady to forgive me for not giving way during my concluding remarks; I thank her for giving way to me. Although she may take her Secretary of State at his word on this, can she not understand our worry that there are members of this Government who are quite clearly of a different view, and who made that very clear during the EU referendum campaign?

[Anna Soubry]

Heaven forbid that we should ever have different points of views within the Government. I will come on to the concerns that some rightly raise about the rhetoric of the leave campaign. I wanted to intervene on the hon. Gentleman because, as someone who had experienced the miners’ strike on an almost daily basis—I was a reporter working for Central Television in Nottingham—I wanted him to understand that what the Conservative Government rightly did was to protect the rights of coal miners in counties such as Nottinghamshire who had had a vote and had decided that they wanted to work. They faced, on an almost daily basis, a small army of pickets who came down and used the most atrocious tactics to try to prevent them from exercising their right to work.

[Neil Gray]

rose—

[Anna Soubry]

With respect to the hon. Gentleman, I am more than happy to have a debate with him about the rights and wrongs of the miners’ strike outside the Chamber, but I take grave exception to the rather large amounts of nonsense that he was spouting when he gave us his comments about Margaret Thatcher and the then Conservative Government. None of those pieces of legislation that were passed by the Thatcher Government —particularly when they were up against the tyranny of trade union leaders who frequently denied workers the right to have a say about how they worked—to restore workers’ rights and to do the right thing by working people were repealed in the 13 years that Labour were in government. Why was that? It was because members of the Labour Government knew in their hearts that that legislation was what working people wanted. I say that as someone who is a proud trade unionist and who was a shop steward in my union.