Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Nusrat Ghani and Stephen Kinnock

Thursday 7th March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)]

I have repeatedly asked Ministers whether any strings were attached to the £500 million of taxpayers’ money that was given to Tata Steel, particularly with regard to job guarantees. I have not had a straight answer, so I will try again today. Can the Secretary of State please confirm whether any conditionality was attached to the £500 million, or did the Government simply buy Tata Steel’s bluff about closure, and give it £500 million so that we could make 2,800 people redundant?

[Ms Ghani]

The hon. Gentleman attends the transition board meetings, so he knows that his question is not really relevant to what he is trying to get to the bottom of. We provided £500 million to ensure that steel making continues in Port Talbot. Tata made it clear that it was uneconomic and unsustainable to continue with steel making, so the support that we have given will ensure that north of 5,000 jobs will continue in Port Talbot, and it will support supply chains. On top of that, £100 million has been provided to the transition board, so that its members, including the hon. Gentleman, the unions and all the local representatives, can ensure that local people who need to go through transition get the support that they need. Without that support, there would not be any future steel making at Port Talbot.

Steel Industry: Wales

Debate between Nusrat Ghani and Stephen Kinnock

Wednesday 21st February 2024 Westminster Hall

[Ms Ghani]

I will in a moment.

I am on record as having had a regular, constructive relationship, so it disappoints me when Members come to this place and do not accept the reality of what was taking place in Port Talbot. If we had not provided support—the biggest support we have provided to the steel sector—there would have been a devastating effect on the entire 8,000 jobs.

[Stephen Kinnock]

Will the Minister give way?

[Ms Ghani]

There is a queue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Ghani]

There is a queue.

[Stephen Kinnock]

Surely when the Government entered into a negotiation with Tata Steel, which is highly experienced in the business of negotiation, they considered the possibility that a gun was being held to their head, and that Tata Steel would of course make threats about total closure because that would strengthen their negotiating position. Were the Government completely naive or just incompetent when they went into a poker game dismissing the possibility that they might be getting bluffed?

[Ms Ghani]

The hon. Gentleman knows better than most that these conversations and negotiations have been going on for years. The Labour party had an opportunity to invest in the blast furnaces when it was in government, and it did not do so. He also knows that the blast furnaces are coming to the end of their life, so a decision would have to be made at some time. Tata could have decided to exit completely, which would have resulted in a loss of the 8,000 jobs and certainty in the supply chain. The hon. Gentleman knows that, because he had I have been at meetings with the unions and at the transition board. I know it is very difficult when there are potential job losses in one’s constituency, but the reality is that the model was not working.

Before I give way to the hon. Member for Croydon Central, let me say that Opposition Members constantly want harder, greener net-zero policies, and this is what happens when we flow those through. Customers—end users—want cleaner, greener steel that is made in electric arc furnaces, and this is the outcome of that demand. The reality is that, without the support, there would have been a high risk of Port Talbot and Tata no longer producing steel in the constituency of the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock).

[Ms Ghani]

I will go on to reference that, but not all unions subscribe to the plan, as the hon. Member knows. It was put forward by a collective, but not by all of them. Tata has been clear that keeping open a blast furnace for a very narrow period of time while opening up electric arc furnaces, which will provide the certainty that we need so that we can use scrap steel in the UK, is neither credible nor financially viable. Keeping a blast furnace open also creates difficulties around security and health and safety.

The negotiations continue, and a consultation is taking place. I was asked about what I am doing to ensure that Tata is observing the parameters of that consultation. The transition board is in place, and our focus is on ensuring that the consultation is as wide and deep as it can be, and that the transition board can do the job that it was set up to do, with huge sums of money.

I have already mentioned, and I cannot reiterate enough, the threat that the Port Talbot plant was under. We recognise the vital importance of the steel industry to the community’s heritage and identity. As I have mentioned, the Government have committed £500 million —the biggest sum ever invested in the steel sector—as part of a total investment of £1.25 billion to ensure the future sustainability of Port Talbot steel. That is what we have been able to do, and we should reflect on that. The investment is a huge step towards fortifying UK steel. Sustaining the blast furnaces would entail significant additional losses for the company and compound its current issues. Moreover, as the hon. Member for Llanelli knows, the UK’s blast furnaces, such as those in Port Talbot, are approaching the end of their operational lifespan.

[Stephen Kinnock]

The Minister keeps saying that the blast furnaces—plural—are reaching the end of their lifespan. Yes, everybody agrees that blast furnace No. 5 is very close to the end of its lifespan; that part of the heavy end, with the coke ovens, should shut down, because the investment does not wash its face. The lifespan of blast furnace No. 4 is until 2032. It does not require that additional investment. I would be grateful if the Minister would stop saying that both blast furnaces are reaching the end of their lifespan.

[Ms Ghani]

The hon. Gentleman has been at the same meetings as I have, so he knows that the blast furnaces cannot be going if we are to transition in a period of time to having the electric arc furnaces up and running. However, I know that conversations are taking place with the unions, because I spoke to them this week. They are continuing to put their case forward, which is why a consultation is taking place. The hon. Member also knows that we need to give those conversations time to be followed through.

[Stephen Kinnock]

On a point of information, the multi-union plan is based on a 1.5 million tonne electric arc furnace. Nobody is denying that electric arc furnaces should not be in the mix. We fully support an EAF. We need a 1.5 million tonne EAF, running alongside blast furnace No. 4, not least because that blast furnace could then produce the iron ore-based metallics that are a vital part of sweetening the mix for the electric arc furnace. That would allow us to continue to deliver the current customer portfolio and be ready to embrace the opportunities of the future. I urge the Minister to recognise that we want an electric arc furnace; it is just that a 3 million tonne electric arc furnace is madness.

[Ms Ghani]

Three million tonne electric arc furnaces do exist in other parts of the world; it is not a unique capacity of arc furnace. I spoke to the unions on Monday, so I know that they are continuing to put their plans forward. Let us see what happens in the next few weeks.

I think everyone recognises that a transition has to take place. We have talked not only about supply chain resilience, but about how we can use scrap steel in electric arc furnaces as technology moves forward. Tata has confirmed that it will observe 90% of its supply chain contracts.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Ghani]

We cannot force Tata. We put the support package in place when Tata said that it was struggling and making losses of over £1 million a day, but we cannot insist that Tata continues. We have provided an offer of support, and we want to ensure that the least amount of people are impacted, that the transition board provides support for those impacted, that supply chains continue to be resilient, and that any decision Tata takes to transition is one that meets the framework it puts forward. For example, if Tata plans to continue with its plan for a 3 million tonne capacity electric arc furnace by 2027, we need to ensure that all the milestones are met.

I want to touch on the issue of procurement, which we really have to address. First, less than 1% of UK steel is needed by the defence industry, and it has nothing to do with Port Talbot. This Government have implemented the procurement pipeline, which I was committed to doing when I became the steel Minister, to encourage our steel producers to access more contracts. In the last reporting year, there was an increase in the value of UK-sourced steel, from £97 million to £365 million. It is important to put that on the record, because Ministers say that they will try to increase UK procurement and we have most definitely done so.

I am worried that we are going to run out of time. The reality is that without our support there would have been a serious conversation fundamentally about the loss of 8,000 jobs at Port Talbot. I appreciate that the Opposition cannot understand the realities of business, but under Labour employment in the UK steel industry was cut back by more than half, or 40,000 jobs. Obviously, the Opposition do not appreciate the number of jobs that we hope to have saved.

We understand that Tata’s announcement will come as a heavy blow to the people of Port Talbot, but I recognise that everyone present accepts that we cannot stop the clocks. Technology has moved on. There has to be a transition, and this is a transition in which the majority of jobs will be supported with a substantial sum of money, and of course by the transition board as well. The transition we are talking about is one that enables us to adopt new technologies, with even more allowed to be adopted further down the line. It prevents the further loss of profit and prevents a dependence on imports going forward because we can use scrap steel within our own economy.

I assure the hon. Member for Llanelli that we are committed to working with Members throughout the House to realise a brighter future for our steel-making industry. If the options proposed by Opposition Members—whether it is the £28 billion or the £3 billion—were seen as serious and credible, I am sure that Tata would have taken heed of those support packages. Obviously it thought either that they were not credible or that they would not enable it to continue to do what it wanted—to transition to electric arc furnaces—and that they could have meant even more job losses in Wales and across the UK.

[Stephen Kinnock]

Will the Minister give way?

[Ms Ghani]

This is the last intervention.

[Stephen Kinnock]

The Minister is being generous in giving way. She said that the Tata plan would enable us to be open to new technologies. In fact, the opposite is the case because the 3 million tonne electric arc furnace negates the possibility of direct-reduced iron capability, of an open slag bath furnace and of a plate mill; the plan is closing down routes to other technologies, not opening them up.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Nusrat Ghani and Stephen Kinnock

Thursday 25th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)]

14. Whether she has had recent discussions with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on taking fiscal steps to help support the steel industry.

[The Minister for Industry and Economic Security (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

The Chancellor and I meet regularly, and obviously we know and recognise the importance of the steel sector in the UK economy. Our commitment to the sector is clear, and we will be investing more than £500 million in the Port Talbot site to ensure that steelmaking continues in the UK. Without that investment, the 8,000 jobs at the port and the 12,500 jobs in the supply chain would have been at risk.

We are working with Tata, and we have set up a transition board—the hon. Gentleman knows about that because we both serve on it—and we have provided more than £100 million of support for affected employees and the local economy. Last Friday, Tata announced that it will provide an additional £130 million of support for employees facing redundancy. The option was steel- making no longer continuing at Port Talbot, or the investment that we have provided.

[Stephen Kinnock]

Ministers keep spinning this line that Tata Steel was threatening to close down the Port Talbot works and walk away, but they know that was an empty bluff, because the costs of dismantling and remediating the Port Talbot steelworks were vast and utterly prohibitive. Against that backdrop, let us be clear: is it the case that no strings were attached to the £500 million of taxpayers’ money that has been given to Tata Steel? Was that £500 million given by the Prime Minister to Tata Steel with a green light to make 2,800 steelworkers redundant?

[Ms Ghani]

I would not want steelworkers to think that we are not working together, and the hon. Member and I work together and will be working together to ensure that steelworkers are protected as much as possible. I think it is extraordinary that the position he is now putting forward is that it would have been better to risk the absolute loss of steelmaking in the UK and then allow the taxpayer to pick up the cost to manage the site.

[Stephen Kinnock]

It was a bluff.

[Ms Ghani]

I believe it far more preferential that we made the largest investment ever in steelmaking to protect more than 5,000 jobs at Port Talbot and the 12,500 jobs in the supply chain—[Interruption.] Fundamentally, we have steelmaking—

British Steel

Debate between Nusrat Ghani and Stephen Kinnock

Wednesday 8th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ghani]

I simply do not recognise the picture that the hon. Lady paints. Our recent decision on Tata Steel was welcomed by UK Steel, the organisation representing the UK sector, which said that it was the way forward. UK Steel itself has a net zero strategy, and wants to see the transition proceed apace.

Decisions have been just left to sit there, but now we are able to provide the support that is needed. What we did in Port Talbot has saved thousands of jobs and allowed the adoption of new technology which will, indeed, create thousands of jobs as well.

[Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)]

Last Wednesday morning, Tata Steel executives in Port Talbot summoned the workforce to tell them of the plan to shut down our entire virgin steel making capability by March 2024. This was utterly shocking, because the understanding had always been that some of the heavy end would continue to function while the electric arc furnace was being constructed, but it takes years to construct an electric arc furnace. The plan is utter madness: it involves importing millions of tonnes of steel from the other side of the world. Electric arc furnaces need the products of virgin steel making, such as iron and iron ore—that is why we need direct reduced iron capability—and the loss of 3,000 jobs over a period like that is completely unacceptable and unnecessary.

When the Government did the deal with Tata Steel about Port Talbot, did they know that Tata was actually proposing not a transition at all, but a potentially lethal cliff edge for our steel industry? Did they know that Tata would be doing that? Does the Minister not agree that the idea of this process is that it should be a transition? It needs to be a bridge, not a potentially lethal cliff edge.

[Ms Ghani]

Tata Steel employs more than 8,000 people and 12,500 further in the supply chain. All of that would have been at risk if we had not been able to provide the certainty it needed to increase its investment to over £1 billion to allow it to transition. These are commercial decisions relating to the pace of transition. The hon. Gentleman knows that there is a transition board in place because he is a member. If there has been a failure in consultation at the level and depth of time required, there is no doubt that he and I will take that up as we will both be at the next transition board meeting. The reality is that to ensure the long-term viability of steel in the UK, some tricky decisions have to be made, but the company was provided with support to make sure that it transitioned in a way that supported local jobs, knowing that it had to transition and support the supply chain.

Tata Steel: Port Talbot

Debate between Nusrat Ghani and Stephen Kinnock

Monday 18th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ghani]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right on the importance of virgin steel production. She is the best champion for her constituency and her steel plant, which is now uniquely positioned as the blast furnace to make virgin steel. That will be important in line with our mantra of “continuity, certainty and security.” Conversations have been taking place with British Steel, the details of which are commercially confidential. My hon. Friend campaigns incredibly hard for the steel sector both in the constituency and across the UK. Those meetings will continue. She is right that, obviously, we need a place for virgin steel, and that is in her constituency.

[Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)]

When all is said and done, the purpose of the deal should have been to protect the current order book and to prepare us for the opportunities of the future. All investment is welcome— I do thank the Minister for her work in this area—but I am afraid that the deal will fail to keep us competitive and to deliver a just transition for the thousands of my constituents whose dedication to our proud steel industry is second to none.

Could the Minister kindly address the following questions? Why have the Government put all their eggs into the electric arc furnace basket? Where is the investment in hydrogen, direct reduced iron and carbon capture technology so that we can continue to produce virgin steel, as the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Holly Mumby-Croft) pointed out? Why were the steel unions not consulted in advance of the announcement? There are literally dozens of hydrogen-based steel projects ongoing across Europe. They are not necessarily ready to make steel but at least they are out of the traps, whereas we are still in the changing room putting our trainers on. Why have the Government not actually entered the hydrogen race?

[Ms Ghani]

The hon. Gentleman, who worked with me incredibly well as chair of the all-party parliamentary group for steel and metal related industries, answers his own question when he speaks about hydrogen. He knows very well the age of the blast furnaces in his constituency and the fact that we needed a transition that enabled certainty to continue. There is no option other than electric to scale up within the time required. [Interruption.] My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) knows that. We have spoken about this many times, so it is disappointing to see the hon. Member for Aberavon being so political about it now. The electric option was a commercial decision for Tata, but it was the only way to ensure certainty to continue. Another Member talked about supply chains and making sure that production continues, so that Tata can deliver the contracts it has in place. The only way to do that is with electric, and that is the way we are going forward.

Commercially sensitive conversations can take place in a much tighter circle, but the hon. Gentleman will know that discussions have been going on for years and years. There is now a transition board, and there will be a huge amount of consultation. The focus is on ensuring that the people impacted are provided with the support they need to transition into the jobs that they should. The fact is that we are securing the future of the steel sector in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. Without this funding all 8,000 jobs would have been lost, along with 12,000 in the supply chain, and we are not seeing that. We are backing steel in his patch.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Nusrat Ghani and Stephen Kinnock

Thursday 29th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)]

2. What steps she is taking to help the steel industry to decarbonise.

[The Minister for Industry and Economic Security (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

The Paris agreement made clear that the steel industry needs to cut emissions by 93% by 2050, and the Government recognise the vital role that the steel sector plays in our economy. The 2021 net zero strategy sets out our aim to make the transition to a low-carbon economy, and reaffirms our commitment to continuing to work with the steel industry on decarbonisation.

[Stephen Kinnock]

Hundreds of steelworkers gathered in Westminster yesterday to make absolutely clear their feeling that the Government are not doing enough, particularly in comparison with competitor nations, when it comes to investment in the transition to decarbonised steel. The numbers do not lie. The Government are also worryingly slow in introducing a carbon border adjustment mechanism. UK Steel has estimated that nearly 23 million tonnes of non-EU steel could flood the UK market if the UK fails to introduce its own carbon border adjustment mechanism at the same time as the EU in 2026. When will we see the Government stepping up and investing in green steel as is being done in competitor countries, and when can we expect the introduction of a British CBAM?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Nusrat Ghani and Stephen Kinnock

Thursday 23rd March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ms Ghani]

My hon. Friend raises the fishing industry. There are two Back-Bench colleagues present who are huge champions of that industry—I dare not say anything further—and I know that my hon. Friend is a huge promoter of Scottish products, including Scottish whisky. I look forward to a tour post Ramadan at some point soon.

The decision about who falls within the EII scheme was taken by the Treasury. I have been reading about the work that my hon. Friend has been doing on behalf of the sector, and I counter-propose a meeting that involves Treasury officials and Ministers. If my hon. Friend is happy with that, I am more than happy to set it up.

[Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)]

I am honoured to be the chair of the all-party parliamentary group for steel and metal related industries, and I thank the Secretary of State to agreeing to come and meet us—I am very much looking forward to that discussion. However, may I raise again the issue of her Sky interview in which she said, or certainly strongly implied, that it is not a given that we should have a steel industry in this country? Given the rise of authoritarian regimes around the world, the massive role that steel plays in providing good jobs that people can raise a family on and the vital role it plays in the transition to a decarbonised economy, may I invite the Secretary of State to come to the Dispatch Box and clarify her position—that steel is, in fact, a given in the United Kingdom?

[Ms Ghani]

Unfortunately, I have to come to the Dispatch Box—that is just the way it works—so I disappoint the hon. Member by not being the Secretary of State. However, he knows that steel is absolutely key to our sovereignty and security and for the resilience of all our sectors. The Secretary of State has mentioned repeatedly that the quotes that are being repeated in the Chamber are a misrepresentation. The commitment to the sector continues. It was in place for years: it is why we had £800 million of support for the energy sector, and it is why we have a £1.5 billion competitive fund to help the sector decarbonise.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Nusrat Ghani and Stephen Kinnock

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State is well known for his airbrushing skills, but he cannot airbrush the fact that, of the top 10 economies in the world, the UK is the only one with a declining steel industry. When is he going to sit down with Tata Steel and the other businesses to do a deal on green steel for the future of our workforce?

[The Minister for Industry and Investment Security (Ms Nusrat Ghani)]

We are working with the whole steel industry across the UK and regularly hold meetings. I do not think the question was posed in an appropriate way, because we are doing a huge amount of work to support the steel sector, including providing £800 million since 2013. We have provided a package of relief support for non-domestic users throughout this winter worth £18 billion. The report published by the BEIS Committee, which I previously sat on, also mentioned that any earlier bail-out for Liberty Steel, in particular, would not have been good value for taxpayers’ money.