Corby Fire Services
Debate between Penny Mordaunt and Andy Sawford
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Penny Mordaunt)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) on securing this important debate, not least because it affords me the opportunity to congratulate Northamptonshire fire and rescue authority on its tremendous success in keeping its local community safe. Since the start of this Parliament, there has been a 34% reduction in all fire incidents in Northamptonshire, and no fire fatalities at all were reported last year. That is good news for people in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, and everyone involved in those achievements deserves praise.
However, we cannot afford to be complacent. Fire and rescue authorities must continue to put prevention and protection first in all that they do. We have made a clear commitment to ensuring the ongoing effectiveness of front-line fire and rescue services, despite the need to tackle the deficit inherited from the previous Administration.
It is clear that Northamptonshire fire and rescue service shares that commitment. Its recently published community protection plan reviews the strong progress that it has made towards delivering its strategic targets and objectives, as set out in its 2013 to 2017 integrated risk management plan. It has set out clearly how it has successfully delivered on those original plans, which were to collaborate with other blue light responders and develop the potential for an integrated emergency service across the county, in order to provide better local services. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) pointed out, it is a world leader in that work: to keep the public safe through partnerships with other agencies; to continue to work to reduce the cost of false alarms, which has fallen by more than 50% since 2008; and to ensure the ongoing safety of its firefighters through the provision of enhanced training facilities and methods, and the adoption of new capabilities, technology and equipment.
Although there have been reductions in funding over recent years, fire and rescue authorities have been given some important protection across the spending review period. Funding reductions have been back-loaded to give fire authorities more time to make sensible and considered savings without their having an impact on the quality of services offered to communities. As Northamptonshire is a county fire authority, its budget allocation is a matter for Northamptonshire county council. Overall, the county’s spending power was reduced by only 1.6% in this financial year, and the provisional settlement for the next financial year will see its spending power increase. In addition, the county has received £488,000 of funding for the forthcoming financial year for specialist equipment to improve resilience for flooding and other emergencies.
We are supporting fire and rescue authorities to transform the delivery of services by promoting greater efficiency, either independently or in collaboration with other emergency service partners. As I announced in October, 37 fire and rescue authorities have been awarded a proportion of the £75 million fire transformation fund for next year, and Northamptonshire is one of those authorities.
The county council has been proactive in planning its spending over the current round, setting out its proposals in a new community protection plan. That document has been subject to full consultation with the local community.
Andy Sawford
The Minister is talking about additional funds. Does she understand why my constituents and I will be perplexed when she suggests that the Government have given Northamptonshire county council and the fire service additional funds, since the chief fire officer and the county council’s cabinet member for finance have come to me to say that they are cutting the engine because they do not have any money and have to make cuts? To me, those two things do not add up. Will the Minister explain?
Penny Mordaunt
I would be very happy to clarify things for the hon. Gentleman, because some of the things that he said in his speech do not add up. I am happy to address the points that his constituents have made, but I also want to set out the facts, because it is incredibly important that whatever decisions people take—I am not taking them—the public are aware of the facts. We do not want to scaremonger and make people concerned about things that will not come to pass. All Members realise how important fire and rescue services are to our communities, so we need to ensure that we deal with the facts of the case.
The county council’s consultation closed today, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman has put in a submission and made his views known. Part of Northamptonshire’s proposed strategy is to move towards a new firefighting system called Cobra.
Andy Sawford
Cobra is incredibly important, but before the Minister turns to that will she clarify whether she is saying that Northamptonshire county council will have more or fewer resources for fire services as a result of the funds and changes she has outlined?
Penny Mordaunt
For the forthcoming financial year the authority’s spending power will increase, and I have mentioned the fund of almost half a million pounds that has been provided for resilience and flooding. The only action I can take, and the only part within my remit as Minister—quite rightly, these are devolved issues—is the fire transformation funding that has funded the vehicles I am about to describe. I am not minded to withdraw that funding. It is close to £2.3 million, and I would rather Corby have that money. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to argue to the contrary—I am sure he will not.
Penny Mordaunt
I will make some progress and then I will be happy to take an intervention.
Cobra is a new technology that utilises high-pressure water and can be used in conjunction with an abrasive compound to cut through materials releasing high-pressure water droplets into a fire compartment—I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman has seen that in action, but I understand that Corby already has two of those appliances. Northamptonshire fire authority is a proactive user of that technology, which it believes will enable it to develop and deliver a new strategic approach to firefighting. The authority already uses those vehicles. It currently has two, and it wants to increase those to seven. The vehicles have been used in rural areas, covering places where retained duty staff availability is insufficient to allow early intervention at incidents, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned, and they will move around as necessary.
We fully support a forward-looking strategic approach, and have awarded Northamptonshire £2.3 million, of which £1.5 million is for the purchase of five new Cobra-enabled vehicles. That award was the result of a rigorous, fair and consistent evaluation process, and the bid was assessed against a range of criteria set out in published guidance to meet the fund’s transformation objectives. It was in competition with other fire authorities and the authority was awarded that money because we had confidence in the bid and the difference it would make to the hon. Gentleman’s community.
Penny Mordaunt
I will make some progress. The authority is clear that the new Cobra vehicles will enhance—not compromise, as was suggested—the flexibility of response within Corby and the north of the county. It will maintain the current two-appliance capability, and although it will facilitate a reduction in whole-time staff, those reductions will be met only through natural wastage rather than any redundancies. I can conclude only that the hon. Gentleman does not support the benefits that Cobra will bring and would like me to withdraw the fire transformation fund funding, but I can see no reason to do so.
Penny Mordaunt
I will make some progress. Operational matters such as the introduction of the deployment of fire appliances and crews are best assessed and planned at local level. It is not for the Government to interfere with the judgments of fire and rescue authorities, or to micro-manage the services provided from central Government. We expect and trust chief fire officers and elected Members to listen to their communities and make the right operational decisions for them. That local voice is critical, which is why I support fire and rescue authorities and oppose Labour’s plans to abolish them and move everything to the centre.
Whether or not the hon. Gentleman thinks that that is the right approach, it is clear that the proposal is not to reduce cover but is about seeking a quicker response in rural areas where there are problems such as those he mentioned. It should be made clear to his constituents that this issue does not warrant scaremongering.
Andy Sawford
It is very simple. May I just explain to the Minister the maths of this? There are currently two Cobra facilities at Corby. They sit on two proper pumps. Four firefighters man those pumps. We are talking about going down to one proper pump with four firefighters and a van with this equipment on the back of it. That is not—the chief fire officer readily acknowledges this—an enhancement of what is available at Corby. It may be that in some other areas of the county there will be some additional service from the seven vehicles—in other areas. In Corby, however, in my area there is a clear reduction in the service. To suggest otherwise—well, the public will not believe it for a moment and they do not believe the county council.
Penny Mordaunt
The point I am making is that it is not as the hon. Gentleman set out in his speech. There are operational reasons why this has been put forward as a proposal. However, I readily admit that local people may disagree with that. There is a consultation which closed today and clearly Corby is an expanding town. This is not just about what the fire service has to deal with today; this is about planning for, and making provision for, the future.
In those circumstances I can see why Corby might want more from its local fire services. I am very aware of the More Fire Cover campaign, which, although it is content with using new technology and the Cobra vehicles and welcomes that new technology, wishes to retain the second traditional appliance for Corby. The campaign, led by Councillor Pursglove, has put forward a way that that could be funded without the need to increase council tax. I give credit to all residents in Corby and Northamptonshire who have made their views known.
Andy Sawford
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I seek your advice? This is an Adjournment debate. The Minister is now talking to proposals I am not familiar with. They were not part of my speech and are not part of the county council’s proposals. They are not really the matter in hand. I just wonder whether it is in order for the Minister to continue in that way.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo)
The Minister is responsible for what she says at the Dispatch Box. The normal procedure is to answer the hon. Member, and the points raised by other hon. Members who have participated in the debate, and I am sure the Minister will bear that in mind.
Penny Mordaunt
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Local leaders will make better decisions with the benefit of the ideas and input from the residents of Corby and the wider area. The idea of using the new homes bonus to fund the cost of a third appliance may not have been considered before, but it is encouraging to see sensible, pragmatic ideas being proposed. There may be other options, but the two we have been discussing today are an improvement on the status quo.
In conclusion, I will not, as the hon. Gentleman might have wanted me to, withdraw the funding for Cobra vehicles. I am very glad that he has put the record straight on that. The service asked for that funding. We were impressed with the project and the new technology, and I think that Corby will be better off for that £2.3 million. I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that if he agrees with the objectives of the More Fire Cover campaign, he might review his opposition to the new homes bonus and support it as a way of providing extra funding, from whichever authority it comes out. I also encourage him, if he values the local voice, as his innovative crowdsourcing debate seems to imply, to hold in high regard fire and rescue authorities and that local accountability that really does put local people in charge and in the driving seat for such local decisions. He might wish to reconsider his wish to centralise fire and rescue authorities. The consultation closed today, and it is not for me to decide what should happen.
Andy Sawford
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I appeal for your advice. There have been repeated claims about my position on a range of matters. For example, it has been suggested that I would not support the expansion of Corby fire service—of course I would; and that I do not welcome additional funds for Corby fire service—of course I do. These claims have been made time and again. It might be orderly—this is where I seek your advice, Madam Deputy Speaker—but it certainly does not seem to be very parliamentary.
Madam Deputy Speaker
As I have said, the Minister is responsible for her own words at the Dispatch Box, and the hon. Gentleman has had the opportunity to correct the record. I remind the Minister that when she is standing at the Dispatch Box, she is answering for her responsibilities as a Minister. Any other observations we can hear at another time.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Penny Mordaunt and Andy Sawford(9 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Penny Mordaunt
I was pleased to be part of that wonderful community event. It is a fantastic new facility, not just supplying state-of-the-art services to the fire and rescue services and as a base for other blue light services, but available for use by the local community as well. I had a wonderful day and I look forward very much to going back and doing more with that fire service.
Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)
Mr Speaker, I am sure the whole House echoes your sentiments about our colleague, Jim Dobbin.
I too welcome the Minister to her post. The Government’s dispute with firefighters has now been ongoing for 1,091 days and there have been 31 strikes. Can she explain why her predecessor and colleague failed to bring the dispute to an end and what she will now do differently?
Penny Mordaunt
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his words of welcome. Resolving the dispute is a key priority for the Government. I have some advantages that my predecessor did not have: when he entered office, we did not have the Williams report, the Knight review and other such reports that enable me and others to make evidence-based judgments. Everyone wants the dispute to be resolved. We are now in a position to have constructive talks, and we have been doing so with the FBU; and we have further meetings in the diary—we meet next after the trades union conference. I am optimistic that the dispute will be resolved soon.