Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Rachael Maskell and Caroline Johnson

Committee stage
Thursday 9th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)]

I support clause 10. We heard compelling evidence from Professor Gilmore last week about the tactics the industry uses to try to get young people addicted to nicotine, so that it can continue to profit from their buying the products for the rest of their lives. We also heard from Professor Gilmore about emerging evidence showing that exposure to nicotine at a young age, particularly as a teenager, can rewire the brain, making it more difficult to quit. I therefore welcome the powers in clause 10 that allow the Government to be flexible and respond to changing techniques in the market in order to stop children becoming addicted to nicotine, but why do we not just make it illegal to sell nicotine of any kind to children?

[Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

I appreciate being called to speak to clause 10, which is a very important part of the Bill. As we have heard many times already, the industry will look at every possible mechanism to try to bring about a new generation of people who are addicted to nicotine and make it harder for them to quit. That goes not just for people under 18 but for those in later adolescence and adulthood.

My concern is with products already on the market that are being taken up quite readily. Next week, the Health and Social Care Committee will look at the public health measures being taken in Sweden. We will see how nicotine pouches—snus, as they are referred to there—are being used as an alternative to smoking, really quite extensively.

[Dr Johnson]

Does the hon. Lady agree that nicotine pouches are starting to be marketed to young people in a similar way to vapes, with an increasing amount of flavours, a relatively inexpensive price per unit and horrifyingly high levels of nicotine?

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[Rachael Maskell]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for that, and I agree that we want to be able to adapt as soon as the market does, but right now the industry is promoting nicotine pouches and we must ensure that we take the earliest opportunity to bring them into the scope of legislation, so that the industry does not just think, “Well, we’ve got six months now to promote our product.” Given the way the industry is behaving, this is a bit like a game of cat and mouse, and we need to do whatever we can to ensure that we are ahead of the curve, whether that is through primary or secondary legislation.

I ask the Minister to ensure that the regulations are brought forward expeditiously and that the first set—we may need further sets; I appreciate what the hon. Member for Harrow East says—is introduced in the shortest time possible. Can she tell the Committee what the timescale will be for that, so that we know how quickly these other products will be brought within the scope of the Bill, ensuring that young people are protected?

[Dr Johnson]

I agree with the hon. Lady and with my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East. Clause 10 applies to clauses 7, 8 and 9, giving the Government flexibility on all three. As the hon. Lady said, it is great to have the flexibility to bring in regulations to amend clauses 8 and 9, but on clause 7, can she think of any good reason why we would want to be able to sell nicotine products to under-18s?

[Rachael Maskell]

The hon. Lady is following up on a theme that I probed at earlier stages of the Bill, notably on Second Reading. I believe that we need to look at stringent measures, so that people do not have their choices restricted by the addiction that they adopt. It is really important that young people today, or anyone else who engages with these products, do not get addicted at an early stage. We have to look at the issue of the impact of addiction in that wider realm, as we are doing on the Health and Social Care Committee, which is looking at products that are addictive and harmful to health in connection with the public health measures that we are scrutinising.

The hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham makes an important point, and at a later stage of the legislative process I hope to examine how we address the drug nicotine and its harmful impacts on young people and more widely. Addiction has been utilised by people who exploit the lives of others for their own profit, and we need to ensure that they do not get the opportunity again with children, young people or adults. They plague those who live in the greatest deprivation in our country, driving them to more harmful addiction. I therefore welcome the legislation, but I believe that we can go further. Given the industry’s activities right at this moment in trying to find new ways around legislation before it is even on the statute book, the Committee needs to be wise about ensuring that it does not get that opportunity.

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[Rachael Maskell]

If I might be so bold, I think the Minister is making life slightly complicated for herself. We know the impact that taking smoking products out of the line of sight of people who go into shops or supermarkets has had. Putting them in closed cabinets has very much had the effect that we would want. People do not see the products, but they have to request them; they are not on display for people to just glance an eye over. They are simply not there in the line of sight.

If the same legislation applied to all vaping and nicotine products, that would make things simpler for shopkeepers and supermarkets. They already have the shelving and the shutters; it is not as if they would have to make a financial investment in new shelving. They would not have to do anything different—just pick up the vapes and put them into a contained, enclosed space. I do not see any reason why that could not be in primary legislation, because it would be so simple, and I believe the expectation of the public is already there.

I walked down a street in York just the other day, and almost every shop had their little vape display. Putting them behind the counter, behind screens, behind shutters, would be the simplest method of dealing with that. We know it is effective for smoking. There is no reason why tobacco products should be dealt with at a different standard than vaping products when people go to purchase them, and we would get the effect of “out of sight, out of mind”. We know how much the industry spends on packaging to draw the eye to products, and how powerful that is. Putting them out of sight would have the required effect of reducing people’s thinking about those products.

Simplifying and bringing the legislation into line, for shopkeepers, the public and for us as legislators would meet the public expectation that this is what will happen. I do not think we need separate legislation to deal with vapes one way and smoking products another. Let us just pool it together, make it simple and say that this is about protecting the public. I do not think anyone will bat an eyelid.

[Dr Johnson]

I rise in support of clause 11 on restricting the display of vaping and nicotine products. I have been horrified to see that after the Government, with good intentions, made it difficult for children to see sweets at the counter, to reduce pester power and help protect them from obesity, the sweets were in many cases replaced by vapes. The Government are doing exactly the right thing in taking the powers to look at displays. As has been mentioned, the ability and flexibility of doing so through regulations means that we can move swiftly when the industry seeks to get round the latest rules. I think that is great.

I have two examples for the Minister. Would they be covered by paragraph (1)(c)? The first is a mini-mart in Grantham. The entire shop window is covered in pictures of things such as Kinder chocolate, Haribos, fruit and very large-size vape devices in bright colours. I was in WH Smith in Nottingham last weekend; this is a shop that sells children’s books, children’s toys, sweets and children’s stationery, yet at the till there is a very large video display of vape adverts immediately behind the shopkeeper’s head. Will these two types of advertising and display be covered by the regulations?

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Rachael Maskell and Caroline Johnson

Committee stage
Wednesday 1st May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Rachael Maskell]

Q But the testing kit would have to come through you?

Dr Squire: It would depend on what it was defined as. I think we could be going into the medical device regulations. I am thinking on my feet, but I would say that a testing kit to test a product would probably not be “for a medical purpose”. It probably would not be under the medical device regulations because the testing kit itself does not have a medical purpose, but it is quite a fine line. We would need to look at the actual testing kit and its purpose.

[Dr Johnson]

Q I want to make sure I have it clear in my head. If someone wants to license something as a medicine or a medical product, they have to go through the more complicated, more expensive process and show you that it is safe, properly made and works as it says it will, and that the risks are outweighed by the benefits of the product. If they want to list something as a product for sale, do they just tell you that they are going to do it and you do not test any of those things?

Dr Squire: No, they are under different pieces of legislation.

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[Dr Johnson]

Q This is very interesting evidence. I want to ask you about flavours. I note that more recently we have started to see flavours among the nicotine pouches that you have just described. I introduced a ten-minute rule Bill last year to ban disposable vapes, because I am concerned about their attractiveness to children and their environmental impact. As part of that, I met representatives of the vaping industry, who told me that the reason they have flavours is essentially to maintain an addiction.

If a person uses a standard stop smoking device, such as a nicotine patch or nicotine gum, the natural history is that they smoke, they use the said gum or patch, they wean themselves off the gum or patch, and then they are no longer a customer providing the industry with revenue. If a person uses vapes, however, they have a choice of flavours that help to maintain the addiction. One thing we have seen with the Bill, which contains powers for the Government to potentially regulate the flavours, is that people are using the argument that it will prevent smokers from stopping smoking. They are trying to argue that flavours do not attract children, but the evidence says otherwise. Do any of you have any comments on that?

Professor Ford: It is true that the flavours are part of the appeal of these products for young people. That appeal is made up of a whole marketing mix of things, and flavours are one element of that. We know that adults like flavours as well, and they might help some adult smokers to migrate away from tobacco, so that is also a factor.

The concern is the vast number of flavours that are available—there are thousands. The way they are described is also an issue. In our pack analysis, we looked at how all the flavours are described: you have a basic flavour such as strawberry, or a flavour blend, but you also have what we call flavour concepts, which do not denote a flavour at all. We had examples such as tiger blood and koala drool. I do not know what they taste like, but they are certainly not flavours that I am aware of.

We believe that those descriptors are tapping into this youth culture and youth slang—some other kind of imagery. They go beyond the factual content of a flavour. One easy way to help to restrict the appeal around flavours would be to restrict those flavour descriptors in the first instance. I think it is great that the Bill would contain the power to go on to restrict flavours if that is the right thing to do.

Dr Branston: Can I add that these are profit-seeking companies? They will do what they can to continue to make the profits that they are making. The profits are as addictive as the products that they make, so it is not in any way surprising to me that they design their products to be as appealing as possible to consumers, as well as being as addictive as possible to consumers.

[Rachael Maskell]

Q I want to come back to the point about advertising. Should the legislation bring tobacco advertising and vaping advertising into line so that the same standards are applied across all products?

Professor Ford: That is something to consider. As I said in my previous answer, it is the whole marketing mix of the current vaping products that has led to the rapid rise in youth use. That includes not only the packaging, the retail displays, which we have spoken about, and the flavours, but the actual product design: the price, the promotion, the price promotion, the images on social media, the posters in the shop window—there are a lot of youth cues and messages in some of those—the accessibility, because of the wide variety of retailers that sell these products, and the user imagery. We find when we speak to young people that they associate vapes not with cessation, but with social vaping.

It is important for the Bill to be mindful of all of the marketing mix, and I would put sponsorship in there as well. We know that there has recently been investment from tobacco companies in outdoor advertising for their vapes, and we are seeing a lot of sponsorship of nicotine products at music festivals and music events and in the sports sponsorship that I mentioned earlier. It is really important to be mindful of all those marketing avenues.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Rachael Maskell and Caroline Johnson

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q Public health messaging is most effective when it is simple. Should the restrictions on vaping being advertised on football shirts, for instance, be in line with those on tobacco advertising, and should there be similar restrictions on where people can vape as there are for smoking?

[Dr Johnson]

I want to ask about the passive effect of vaping. We know that if you are proximal to someone vaping you can smell the blueberry flavour, or whatever it is. Do you have any evidence on the passive health effects of vapes?