Debate Excerpts: Robert Halfon vs Flick Drummond

Adult and Further Education

Debate between Robert Halfon and Flick Drummond

Wednesday 5th July 2023

(9 months, 3 weeks ago)

Commons Chamber

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The Minister for Skills, Apprenticeships and Higher Education (Robert Halfon)

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I am pleased to respond to the debate. When my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker), the former Schools Minister and now the Chair of the Education Committee, said that he had applied for the debate, I welcomed it because I wanted a good debate on further education. Despite the kind words of the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), I do not know if he is quite the secret weapon I would take with me when I have negotiations with the Treasury, but his point was well made.

I heard a lot of rhetoric from the shadow spokesperson, the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr Perkins). Warm words butter no parsnips. Last year, FE Week reported that:

“Labour cannot commit to boosting FE funding levels”.

The article went on to say that speaking to FE Week, the hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson)

“said the economic landscape had changed significantly and could not pledge any uplift in cash for further education or address the disparity between FE and higher education funding until the economic outlook was clearer.”

So despite what the hon. Member for Chesterfield says, the Opposition are not guaranteeing any uplift in further education funding.

I thank the hon. Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood) for opening the debate. She is passionate about adult education; I am with her and I understand the absolute importance of community learning. I have seen that in my own constituency and I champion it in the Department. I will say more about adult and community learning later in my remarks, but looking at all the programmes together—the skills boot camps, the level 3 offer, Multiply and adult apprenticeships—we are spending well over £3 billion.

My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) as well as the hon. Member for Wirral West raised the issue of community learning, which has actually increased over the past year. If we look at the key focus, we will see that, in the 2021-22 academic year, 304,000 learners participated in a community learning course, compared with 243,000 in the 2020-21 academic year. That is an increase of 24.9%. I have other figures that I could quote, but that does not mean that everything in the garden is rosy. We are doing a lot of work to try to support adult and tailored learning, which I will go on to discuss a bit later in my speech.

I am experiencing a bit of déjà vu here. This time last year, I believe that I was the Chair of the Education Committee leading the estimates debate, and my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester was answering it. What we say here is, I think, touché. What I would say to him is that, absolutely, he has made a valid case for funding for further education, as have many other Members. I will go on to talk about that a bit later in my remarks. I also think that it is important that we do not paint just a partial picture. We should look at the 10% uplift in T-level funding, the £300 million that we are spending on institutes of technology, the £115 million spending on higher technical qualifications, which are now being taught in more than 70 institutions, the £2.7 billion that we will be spending on apprenticeships by 2025, the up to £500 million that is being spent on Multiply, and the many millions of pounds being spent on boot camps. Billions and billions of pounds are being spent on skills, which is absolutely right. It is right, too, to make the case for ever more resources—I always champion more resources—but it is important to paint the whole picture, not just a partial one. There are many good things happening, and it is fair to acknowledge that.

The hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) raised the issue of BTECs, as did my hon. Friend the Chair of the Select Committee. He was resolute on this, so I will be quite resolute in return. BTECs have already been delayed. They have already been reviewed, and are being reviewed. There will be a significant number of BTECs that remain. We have specifically introduced the T-level transition year, the whole purpose of which is to prepare those students for T-levels, because, as was rightly said by my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Lia Nici), T-levels are harder. But there is now a T-level transition year, and more than 60 institutions are teaching it, and there will be another 70 along the way to prepare students.

Importantly, we are removing some BTECs and other qualifications that have low uptake or poor progression. The hon. Member for Twickenham mentioned the tourism qualification. I shall write to her with the details and the figures. I shall also come on to childcare in a bit because of the brilliant speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Dame Andrea Leadsom). As I was saying, though, we are removing T-levels that have low uptake or not great progression, or that significantly overlap with other T-levels. The whole purpose of this is that we have created employer-led qualifications through our apprenticeship reforms. The T-levels and the higher technical qualifications are all employer-designed with the Institute for Apprenticeships and Technical Education; I was proud to legislate for them in my last stint in this role. Employers will be able to develop new qualifications. For example, if they wanted to, they could develop a new tourism qualification.

There is another important issue, which has come up time and again. I have said that some BTECs will remain. I recognise that disadvantaged students are doing some of these BTECs, but we go down a very dangerous road if we say that we want to keep some qualifications because disadvantaged students do them, and the other ones, the middle class and everybody else can do. That is a dangerous road, because I do not want to have two-tier qualifications: some for the disadvantaged and others for the middle class and the well-off. What I want, and what I have devoted my whole parliamentary life to, is to develop state of the art, world-beating vocational and technical qualifications that are as good as, if not better than, A-levels. That is what is important. That is how I would respond, politely but robustly, to my hon. Friend the Chair of the Select Committee.

Mrs Drummond

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That is a very interesting comment on the people who are doing BTECs at the moment. We were told by several people that T-levels had a very high entry requirement. Can my right hon. Friend confirm that that is no longer the case? The other point we heard in our inquiry was that 20% were dropping out of T-levels. What will they be doing if they are not able to carry on with T-levels?

Robert Halfon

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First, as I say, a significant number of BTECs remain and will remain. There are new qualifications that can be developed so that those who do not pass will be able to do some other qualification at level 3, or they may want to do a level 2 or level 3 apprenticeship instead. There will be options for those people, but we could make the same arguments about those people who fail A-levels. We should not just have one rule for T-levels and another rule for those doing A-levels.

I will come on to funding, because every hon. Member has raised that. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Gill Furniss) talked about it, and I am pleased that she has had more £7 million invested in Sheffield City College. My right hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) was thoughtful as always; we have talked a lot about skills over the years and I reiterate that we are championing quality qualifications, which will address the skills deficits, and introducing lifelong learning through the lifelong loan entitlement.

The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Andrew Western) again talked about funding; I will come on to that, and I am happy to write to him about the specific issue that he raised regarding Trafford College. I was pleased to meet my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Edward Timpson) and the principal of Reaseheath College. Land colleges have been beneficiaries of important capital funding and I know the college has received more than £6.5 million. I said in that meeting that I would work with my hon. and learned Friend on the issues he has raised and I will continue to do so as much as I possibly can.

The hon. Member for Twickenham talked about the skills wallet, and we do have a difference here. I have sympathy with many of the things she says and I genuinely admire her for her knowledge of education and skills, but we looked at the skills wallet and, as I understand it, it gives every adult £10,000 to spend on training, but with incremental payments, starting with £4,000 at age 25, £3,000 at age 40 and the final £3,000 at age 55. That would mean that learners would be constrained by when the funding became available. We want to be fair to students and fair to the taxpayer. Our lifelong loan entitlement will be transformative, because everyone will have access to up to £37,000 that they can take any time up to the age of 60. There are 12 entry points and they can do short courses or modules of courses.

I have nothing but incredible admiration for the way my right hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire champions early years. I have good news for her, because when I found out she was on the list to speak in this debate, I wanted to be sure about what we were doing on early years skills—as my Department officials, who are watching, will know.

To let my right hon. Friend know what is going on, there is a lot. The first-ever national professional qualification in early years leadership cohort began in October 2022 and the second cohort commenced in February 2023. The employer trailblazer groups have developed level 2 and level 3 apprenticeships, but we now have a level 5 apprenticeship and we fund more than 20 childcare courses through our free courses for jobs offer. Some 2,000 learners started T-levels in education and childcare in September 2022, and there is a load of early years higher technical qualifications. There is masses going on, so we will have the trained workforce that she passionately and rightly talks about, right across that sector.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Sir David Evennett) has great experience and wisdom. He too talked about funding, and he will know that his college—I think it is the London South East Colleges group—has had £24.5 million since 2020. I think the shadow Minister has also had £18 million in capital funding for Chesterfield College in his constituency; again, that is a brilliant investment by the Government that no doubt he will be celebrating to the rafters.

I have mentioned the right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington. I appreciated the way in which he said what he did. We have spending constraints, but I will talk more about those in a moment. My hon. Friend the Member for Waveney spoke powerfully about the skills revolution in his area.

My hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby made a brilliant speech. There was a lot that I agreed with. On the maths to 18 issue, I was one of those people who had a fear of maths. I passed my maths O-level, but it took me three months and a second time around—I was slightly dyspraxic; it was a nightmare. It is wrong that I was told that I would never have to do it again. We should have practical numeracy—basic numeracy, times tables and so on—and what I call numerical literacy, so that people can read bills and understand budgets. That would help those who have difficulties. Of course, any maths teaching should promote careers in mathematics. I think that the Prime Minister is right: we must have maths to 18 along the principles that he set out in his speech. I absolutely believe in that. The experience of my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby was clear to see.

This is an estimates day debate, so we have to talk about facts and figures. The DFE’s resource budget is about £86 billion—an uplift of more than £2 billion since the spending review—and £9 billion is directly linked to apprenticeships and further education. Apprenticeships are a key rung on what I call—colleagues have nicely quoted it back at me—“the ladder of opportunity”. We redesigned the programme in partnership with industry. There are now accredited routes to more than 670 occupations, from entry level to expert. Government funding for apprenticeships will reach £2.7 billion by 2024-25, as I have mentioned, and that money is reaching the economy.

The hon. Member for Twickenham mentioned the apprenticeship budget. We spent 99% of the apprenticeship budget, and let us not forget that we send hundreds of millions to the devolved authority, so the levy is being used. I can give her a raft of quotes from businesses that are supportive of the levy. The Opposition quote one or two businesses here and there that perhaps want it to be a skills levy, but—I have to disagree with the hon. Lady and the shadow Minister—a skills levy would mean no apprentices or a diluted number of apprentices. We are spending billions of pounds on skills. I have already given the figures on that.

As the Chair of the Education Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester, mentioned, the Association of Colleges has called for 50% of the apprenticeship levy to be spent on apprentices at levels 2 and 3, who are below the age of 25. Under-25s made up 50% of starts in 2021-22; 70% of starts were at levels 2 and 3, providing an entry-level springboard into work. Contrary to the bad news set out by the shadow spokesman, we have had a 22% increase in apprenticeship achievements in the academic year—that is what counts: achievements. The 90% who achieve get good jobs when they finish their apprenticeship. There were 8.6% more starts in 2021-22 than in 2021. We are pushing and encouraging more degree apprenticeships. They are a brilliant route up the ladder. We are now putting in £40 million over the next couple of years—it was £8 million previously—to encourage providers to take up more students for degree apprenticeships.

My goodness, what a brilliant visit we had to the college in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Jane Hunt). Anyone who wants an example of T-level success should go to Loughborough College, where state-of-the-art T-levels are being taught brilliantly—including healthcare T-levels, creating a pipeline for future NHS workers—and an institute of technology is being built. It was an honour to lay the groundwork. As I mentioned, we are spending £300 million on 21 institutes of technology around the country, of which there are already 12. They are the Rolls-Royce of further education in collaboration with higher education and big and small businesses, and an example of the Government’s commitment to skills and of the investment in the skills that we need for the future. Sadly, I understand that the principal is leaving Loughborough College, but I am sure that the college will find a principal who is just as brilliant as her to take over.

I mentioned the higher technical qualifications and new and existing levels 4 and 5. We have the T-levels. Yes, there are delays in some of them, but we want to get them right. We have 164 providers across the country, and 10,000 students started T-levels in 2022—that is more than double the 2021 figure. We will roll out T-levels in 2024-25 so that more young people can benefit from those high-quality qualifications. More than 92% of students achieved a pass.

Debates between Robert Halfon and Flick Drummond during the 2019 Parliament

Adult and Further Education

Oral Answers to Questions