Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Eighth sitting)

Debate between Trudy Harrison and Preet Kaur Gill

Committee stage
Tuesday 14th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Trudy Harrison]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. That is really what I am calling for, although it does not detract from the need to prevent the normalisation of vaping. However, I repeat the request for more in-depth research into the impacts of vaping and nicotine addiction on children.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Most public places are already smoke free on a voluntary basis. We do not believe it is necessary or proportionate to make such a legal requirement, which would risk increasing the widespread misperception that vaping is as harmful as smoking. In the United Kingdom, vaping is already prohibited on a voluntary basis in most, if not all, places visited by children; public transport—trains, airports, planes, buses, coaches and ferries—most, if not all, sports stadiums; music venues; many hospitals or hospital grounds; restaurants and cafes, at least definitely those used widely by children; and a lot of pubs and bars. As was discussed in last week’s evidence sessions, the health harms underpinning the smoking ban are not proven for vaping, and such an approach would be hard to justify on health grounds. This would be a complicated piece of legislation to introduce, and now is not the time at which, and the Bill is not the place in which, to do so.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Trudy Harrison and Preet Kaur Gill

Committee stage
Wednesday 1st May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Trudy Harrison (Copeland) (Con)]

Q We have heard various accounts of the impacts of vapes on children and young people—that there are limited direct consequences of vaping on children and young people’s bodies, but plentiful and multiple different indirect impacts of that behaviour in schools and such like. I am starting to hear that it almost feels like an unbearable choice between whether we protect children and young people from vaping, or prevent older people from being able to stop smoking through the use of vapes. I am struggling with making that choice; I can see both sides of the argument. Do you have a view? Could you help the parliamentarians here to understand the choice we are faced with?

Dr Squire: The Bill helps in all ways. The Bill is very clear on tobacco and, as I say, we do not have a role on that, but the proposal is to put more requirements on vapes, and in our experience more requirements add to the barrier to something getting on to the market, which is helpful. One of the problems we have with e-cigarettes is their availability.

I am not sure I see the choice between the two. We are seeing here a Bill that, as people have said before, is balanced. It recognises that vapes are useful for people who already smoke, and it puts in some very big restrictions on people who already smoke, but it also tightens the rules around vapes. I think that is what gives it the balance, which is helpful. The problem, which others are more qualified than I am to talk about, is: if we did not have vapes at all, where would people who smoke go? It is not a good answer, but if you do not smoke, don’t vape. That has been said a number of times, and we definitely agree with it.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q How many products that have gone through the notification process have been deemed illicit and have therefore been removed by trading standards?

Dr Squire: I think I have some figures about that— can I write to you? I do not have them in front of me, but I think they are quite high numbers. We have about 67,000 on the list at the moment, and quite a high proportion have come off as a result of the activities of trading standards.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q In your opinion, does the Bill do enough to address the sale of vapes with illegal capacities and nicotine strengths? Will it give Government the powers they need to address future trends in this area?

Mr Lawson: From the products we have tested, 78% of those are already deemed illegal based on the tobacco and related products regulations, which are the current regulations in the UK, so enforcing those regulations more stringently would have removed most of the products that people are now using. Implementing new regulations on top of regulations that are not currently enforced may not be effective in reducing the number of those products being sold on the market.

[Trudy Harrison]

Q I am the very proud mum of four daughters, aged between 21 and 25. When I think back to them as teenagers, I do not think they would have found a unicorn, a cartoon character or a bubble gum flavour particularly trendy—when they were four or five, yes—so I do not buy the idea that teenagers are attracted to such things. I worry that whatever we manage to do to avoid cartoon characters or bubble gum flavours being prevalent just will not work. For example, cigarettes are still attracting many young people, which is why the Bill is needed. I think they taste absolutely revolting, but that is not putting children off. What are your thoughts on what needs to be done to prevent teenagers from finding vapes attractive?

Mr Lawson: I am not sure we can ever prevent any youth getting access to vapes—that is an impossibility. Youth are known to engage in risky behaviours, so they will drink alcohol under age and engage in risk-taking behaviour. What we can do is limit the drivers that bring youth to using vape products, such as flavours that are appealing or cartoons they are familiar with. These are small factors that play into the overall picture as to why somebody may pick up a vape when they did not previously smoke. That needs to be balanced with the question of adults quitting smoking. If you restrict flavours to only tobacco flavour, as we see in the US pretty much at the moment, adults are then limited to flavours that remind them of smoking, and that is probably less likely to reduce the smoking prevalence in the population.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Trudy Harrison and Preet Kaur Gill

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Trudy Harrison]

Q You are both very effectively articulating the complexity of your programme of work within trading standards, but 2027 seems like a terribly long timeframe. Given what we know about nicotine addiction and the outcomes, is it the right timeframe, and what will you need to be doing in that timeframe to achieve the deadline?

John Herriman: I think this is all about strategic resourcing. As I have already articulated, the profession has had a significant cut in resources over the last decade or so. Actually, we now have to go into a phase where we are rebuilding the capacity. We can do this; we know that we can enforce regulations, because we have seen that we can do it successfully within the world of tobacco. It is now about what we are doing as a profession to start building back that capacity. We are taking some new steps: for example, there are now apprenticeship schemes running in England, both at level 6 and level 4, and we are supporting the level 4 apprenticeships in Scotland and Wales.

One of the things that I think is really good about the Bill, and the work that DHSC and other Departments have been doing, is the taking of a strategic view. We have to build this capacity gradually—fairly swiftly, actually—into trading standards, but we also have to be clear on expectations with businesses, so that they know what is coming and we can therefore make sure that we are moving at the same sort of pace. By taking that strategic approach, it allows us to build the capacity at the right level and make sure we have trading standards officers who are qualified—it can sometimes take two to three years to train somebody as a fully-qualified trading standards officer. That way, we have a sustainable platform to make sure that the legislation can be enforced. Essentially, that is what we are seeing here. We have not seen this level of strategic approach to resourcing and tackling a problem in many other areas, so it is quite welcome.

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q You mentioned that trading standards has faced huge amounts of cuts, with many telling us that in some places there is not even a single trading standards officer. The enabling regulation and the powers within that will be really important, especially when making it clear what trading standards officers must look for when they go into a shop, how vapes are being marketed, and so on. The Government have already consulted on that. Do you think the Government should release that information now, so that they can work with you and do the preparatory work? What kind of timescales do you think there should be? We heard today from ASH that there is some evidence—for example, from Canada—around descriptors that we could already put in the Bill, or that we could implement immediately—why should we wait? Would it have been helpful to have some of that consultation around the enabling regulations already there?

John Herriman: The Bill itself is helpful in that it has enabling regulations within it. It is about a phased approach. We cannot turn a switch overnight: we have to build it up gradually. We will need to do a lot of training—and not just training, but recruitment of new apprentices, students and trainees into local authorities, as well as doing the business education part, alongside that—and move in a very structured way. The worst thing that could happen is that we have the regulations, we have the law in place, but cannot enforce it. That would mean that it became ineffective. It is about having a phased approach, and the Bill does that quite nicely. It fits within where trading standards is as a profession. We need to build back that capacity over time. We are still waiting to hear the outcome of the discussions on funding, which are happening at the moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Preet Kaur Gill]

Q What impact do you think the Bill will have on improving the environmental outcomes?

Laura Young: I think the regulations and how those are designed will be crucial. I know there will be follow-up legislation mopping up other parts of the issues, with disposable vapes hopefully being banned, but it is important that we look at the design. How we get the most circular economy version of vapes is crucial: limiting as much as possible single-use plastic, looking at how we can make them modular, making sure we do not just shove a charging port at the bottom and hope for the best, but actually looking at how they can be circular by design.

On design, it is also important that we are beginning to see vapes that are legal—there are the illegal ones, which are to one side—that I believe are getting around existing legislation in terms of capacity. You now see ones that have different cartridges, so it is almost like the pens that you had where you could switch between the inks. You can now do that with vapes that are being sold legally. They are getting over the limits because they are saying, “This isn’t one big cartridge. This is four small ones.” We are already seeing the industry innovating in a negative way to get around the legislation, so we need to make sure that that does not happen when we bring in environmental topics as well as all the other ones for public health.

[Trudy Harrison]

Q You have expertly explained the concerns around plastic pollution from vapes, but what do we know so far about the impacts on nature and biodiversity from cigarette butts? Also, are you aware of any concerns about the air pollution risks on biodiversity from cigarettes?

Laura Young: This may be something that has gone under the radar: the No. 1 item littered is cigarette butts, particularly when you look by number. They have a huge environmental impact, particularly because plastic is inside the filters, and the filter is the butt that is let behind. Although there has been a lot of campaigning around the environmental impact of vapes, there have been amazing efforts to raise awareness of the environmental issues around tobacco by organisations like ASH Scotland and the Marine Conservation Society, one of which I know has already given evidence.

Globally, we also need to look at this as a huge industry. Of course, kind of like any other industry, they need to be looking at their footprint and their sustainability measures. We know of course that air pollution is absolutely key to the conversation, and that has an impact as well on wildlife and biodiversity. Neither tobacco or nicotine products, such as vaping, are good for the environment; they are very harmful to the environment. We are just beginning to see those harms with disposable vapes in particular, but we know that cigarette butts have had a longstanding impact on the environment. They are also just a nightmare to collect. They are so small and so problematic. On beaches, you will see them as much as you see sand. We definitely need a lot more action across both those sectors.