Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Wera Hobhouse and Mike Freer

Thursday 16th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

T7. Since Brexit, many UK companies have stopped exporting to the EU altogether, whatever the Minister is trying to sell us. The situation has become even worse for many of my small businesses in Bath since the closure of the SME Brexit support fund. Will the Government consider introducing a new version of that fund?

[Mike Freer]

I would direct the hon. Lady’s businesses to contact the export support service, which provides practical assistance in overcoming particular issues. On top of that, we also have the internationalisation fund, the shared prosperity fund and the trade access programme. Picking on one pot that is no longer available misses the point. A whole range of financial support pots are available to businesses. If she would like directions to those pots, I am more than happy to write to her.

Transgender Conversion Therapy

Debate between Wera Hobhouse and Mike Freer

Monday 13th June 2022 Westminster Hall

[Mike Freer]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I know he spends a lot of time on this issue, and we are probably of a similar mindset about where we want to get to.

I am straying into parliamentary draftsmanship, but I think it is possible to draft a Bill that ensures that attempts to reopen the Equality Act 2010 or the Gender Recognition Act would be out of scope. That is one of the dangers: if we write a Bill that is open to being repeatedly amended, there is a risk of the debate widening beyond conversion therapy, which is why I am trying to ensure that the Bill is narrow. However, the way I see it—I cannot give that cast-iron guarantee, because I am not the parliamentary draftsperson—is that a Bill about conversion practices would be amendable. Of course, that is a debate for another time, but our purpose is that the Bill remains narrow, so that it is limited to conversion practices and does not get hijacked and caught up in debates about other issues. I hope that we can keep it very, very narrow.

The extra work of scoping out, which I hope will be done at pace, is about ensuring that legitimate clinicians and therapists are protected in being able to explore all the reasons why somebody might be suffering from gender distress. It is also to make it abundantly clear that parents can have robust conversations with their children. There is nothing wrong with a parent disagreeing with their child’s trans status or sexual orientation—that is not a conversion practice.

[Wera Hobhouse]

We are having a good debate, but can the Minister confirm that conversion practices are those that are aimed at a certain outcome? What he is describing—an open conversation to explore a person’s gender identity—is of course not something that a ban should include, but all practices with a closed outcome should be banned, and that ban should include trans people.

[Mike Freer]

A conversion practice is clearly defined as where a person has the predetermined objective of taking someone away from being trans and pushing them towards not being trans. Being straight and being gay would be symmetrical. Key to the additional work that I am seeking to get undertaken at pace is the clarity that we need to ensure that clinicians, parents and teachers are protected, to ensure that the chilling effects, which some clinicians and therapists have expressed concern about, are equally mitigated.

The Cass report mentions how affirmative therapy could be abused. We will always find a rogue practitioner with any practice, but it is legitimate to consider how affirmative therapy should be performed. Again, it is about achieving clarity so that people are not caught and made to feel that they have practised conversion therapy by simply being a good therapist or clinician. That is why the work that we have scoped and done at pace will, I hope, allow us to achieve a consensus and put to bed many of the fears and concerns that people have legitimately expressed. Although I am clearly disappointed that we are having this debate again and that we are where we are, I feel that it is not unreasonable to take some extra time to try to build a consensus, so that when a Bill comes forward, we can make it as inclusive as possible. I cannot guarantee that we will get there, but that is my aim and objective, and I do not think it is wrong to spend some extra time trying to ensure that we can build as much consensus as possible.

Let me turn to a couple of points that have been raised. We have talked about trans healthcare. I have spoken to Dr Cass a couple of times, and she has clearly put a lot of thought into how we need to reform the healthcare system for trans people—not just for under-18s, but in general. The idea that people wake up on a Monday, decide that they want to change their gender, and have been banged through surgery by Friday is clearly nonsense. Anybody who has spent any time looking at the whole trans journey knows that it is cumbersome, it is not patient-centred, and it does not work. It forces too many people to opt out and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) said, to buy things on the internet—the wild west—where we do not know what they are doing and what they are being exposed to. That is an important piece of work, alongside the work we are doing on conversion practices.

I want to reiterate that the call for the ban on conversion practices to wait until Dr Cass has reported in full, and the Government have responded, is missing the point. Dr Cass has said that our work is complementary—we are not sequential—and that her work is not a reason not to bring forward the legislation. She has made that abundantly clear. In fact, she has gone as far as publishing a Q&A on her website, which clearly says:

“The Cass Review was commissioned as an independent review of NHS gender identity services for children and young people. Its terms of reference do not include consideration of the proposed legislation to ban conversion therapy.

No LGBTQ+ group should be subjected to conversion therapy. However, through its work with clinical professionals, the Review recognises that the drafting of any legislation will be of paramount importance in building the confidence of clinicians working in this area.”

That is what Dr Cass said, and she is absolutely spot-on.

I want to put a couple of other things on the record. Hon. Members raised the victim support service, which is already operating and is run by Galop. The service is fully inclusive and available to anybody who believes they have been subject to conversion practices or believes they have been at risk of those practices, regardless of their sexuality, gender or non-binary identity. Galop is the leading LGBT+ anti-violence charity and has significant expertise in that area of work.

To conclude, I remain wholly committed to delivering our commitment to ban conversion practices and to protect victims and survivors. I know many colleagues in this Chamber, from across the House, are equally committed to realising that goal. We have to work together to ensure that the legislation is right and that we are seen to be supportive of people’s right to be who they are. It is not our job to interfere in how people see themselves; it is a matter of autonomy and dignity. I thank all colleagues for their contributions and I look forward to working together to make the Bill a success.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Wera Hobhouse and Mike Freer

Thursday 3rd March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mike Freer]

Actually, no, I cannot tell the hon. Lady, because I am the Minister for exports, not the Minister for imports. What I can do is ensure that the relevant Minister comes back to the hon. Lady with a substantive answer if she wishes to write to me with the details.

[Wera Hobhouse]

In my constituency, businesses keep contacting me to share details of the detrimental effects that Brexit has had on their business, such as countless zero-sales days, which they had not experienced before. I am not making that up. Will the Government listen to small businesses, stop their Brexit ideological blind spot about this and, for example, reopen the SME Brexit support fund, with a simplified application process and an expanded remit?

[Mike Freer]

I am not sure I am the one with the Brexit blind spot, but I have to say that the Government are working very hard with our trade industry groups and our representative bodies. I frequently meet those groups, ranging from the Federation of Small Businesses all the way up to the CBI. Officials, both here in London and in post, will work with specific Governments to eradicate any issues inter-country, where there is perhaps an overzealous interpretation of the rules. More deep-seated problems will be dealt with on a Government-to-Government level. If the hon. Lady has details of specific businesses and specific issues that she would care to share, I would be more than happy to ensure that the Export Support Service gets back to her or to her constituents who wish to export.

Pride Month

Debate between Wera Hobhouse and Mike Freer

Thursday 1st July 2021 Commons Chamber

[The Comptroller of Her Majesty's Household (Mike Freer)]

First, I have to say that I am in something of an invidious position because normally I stand behind the Chair urging Ministers to be short. Now I am in the position of having to try to go long while ignoring the Bench Whips.

I pay tribute to the sponsors of the debate. The hon. Member for Wallasey (Dame Angela Eagle) and I shared a platform many years ago, probably around 2004, so I know her commitment on these issues over many years and I commend her passion, although I do not always share her analysis. My hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Elliot Colburn) is a co-sponsor. I will touch on some of the technical issues he raised, but he also gave a message about having a supportive family. Despite having a supportive family, I still encountered issues, which shows that, while we have made progress, we still have issues to come. The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (John Nicolson) made a powerful contribution. Indeed, the contributions from all the SNP Members who took part were particularly powerful and, in many ways, insightful.

The debate has, in the main, been one of good humour on both sides of the House. People may disagree on what still needs to be done, or disagree on the history of what has gone before, but the debate has allowed us to celebrate the achievements of what we have seen over the past few years while focusing on the issues that still remain. The first Pride event in this country was held in July 1972, inspired by the infamous Stonewall riots, and brave and determined people marched through Highbury fields in north London with one message: “We are here.” Today, that message remains the same: “We are here.” It is a simple message, but a powerful one. The importance of visibility cannot be underestimated, because to be seen is to be heard and to be counted, and that is the bedrock of our democratic society. There has been some discussion as to whether Pride is a protest or a celebration. In my view, it can be both.

I shall turn to some of the issues raised during the debate. A number of Members raised the international situation. Despite the changes that we have seen and can celebrate in the UK, globally there remain too many places where being LGBT is a daily struggle, where discrimination and violence are a daily occurrence and where tolerance and acceptance are a far-off dream. Members have commented that there are still 70 countries in the world today where it is illegal to be LGBT, and that in 11 of those, the death penalty remains on the statute book. While that remains the reality for millions of LGBT people around the world, it is important that Pride is seen not just as a month of events but as a global movement of visibility.

I am proud to say that this Government will host “Safe To Be Me”, a global equality conference that will bring together Government representatives, business leaders, civil society and international parliamentarians to address the safety of the LGBT community across the world. The conference is the next step in the UK’s journey towards equality and will focus on decriminalisation, progressing legislative reform, tackling violence and discrimination and ensuring equal access to public services for LGBT people.

My hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell) made reference to the work that we need to do with the Commonwealth. In 2020, we announced an additional £3.2 million of UK-funded projects to help Commonwealth Governments and civil society groups to reform outdated laws and end the legacy of discrimination and violence that persists today.

My hon. Friend the Member for Reigate and others asked whether the commitment from the Prime Minister would be delivered, and I can say that that commitment is still sound and will be delivered. I cannot promise the £40 million that my hon. Friend was asking for; nor can I deliver the reform of the drugs laws. Those matters are well outside the brief of today. In addition to the £3.2 million for work in the Commonwealth, we have given an extra £800,000 to support the vital work of civil society organisations through the Commonwealth Equality Network, which works tirelessly to protect the rights of fellow citizens and to ensure that LGBT people live free from discrimination and violence. I was particularly pleased to see the recent appointment of my noble Friend Lord Herbert of South Downs as the UK’s special envoy on LGBT rights. That further highlights this Government’s commitment to LGBT people at home and abroad.

I will turn to one or two of the specific areas that we have covered today, starting with health. Numerous Members have talked about some of the issues facing the community when accessing health services. That is a regular focus of all our discussions in this House, and it is a focus of this Government’s LGBT work. The appointment of Dr Michael Brady as the first national adviser for LGBT health is another example of our commitment to level up outcomes for LGBT people. Appointed in April 2019, Dr Brady has already achieved a great deal: liaising across NHS England, he has worked to ensure that LGBT health inequalities are given consideration in its long-term planning and implementation. He is working on improving data collection on sexual orientation and gender identity; he has held roundtables on LGBT health; and he has hosted the first national NHS LGBT health conference, highlighting issues that LGBT people experience. This is firmly on the agenda of our Health Department and our equalities team.

On education, our manifesto made clear our commitment to helping teachers tackle anti-LGBT bullying, and the Government continue to fund anti-bullying projects. The Department for Education is tendering for a new anti-bullying programme that will include LGBT in its mandates. The hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine West) asked some specific questions, and I will make sure that we get back to her with answers to all of them, but in particular, she asked about teacher training. Being married to a teacher, I know that this issue is covered, but I do not know whether it is covered to an extent that would satisfy the hon. Lady. I will ask my colleagues in the Department for Education who are responsible for that particular section of teacher training to make contact with her, so that we can have a proper discussion as to whether there are any gaps in teacher training that need to be filled.

Turning to one of the achievements, let us not forget that it was a Conservative-led Government who introduced same-sex marriage in 2013, and extended it to include couples in Northern Ireland last year. Between 2014 and 2017, 25,000 same-sex couples married in the UK, myself included—in fact, I think I was the first Conservative MP to use the legislation. My hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Peter Gibson) mentioned his 13-year civil partnership: those of us in this House know the strains of being a Member of Parliament, and will know the importance that we place on the support of our partners and our family. It is right to put on record that we pay tribute to our partners and our family for all they do to help us do our job in this place. That legislation on same-sex marriage has enabled tens of thousands to enjoy the rights, privileges, and joy that marriage can bring. I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington, who I know is disappointed about his delayed marriage, that I hope that this time next year, he will take part in this debate as a married man.

Of course, there is more still to do. Immense progress has been made since the first Pride march, but we still have to carry on with our progress to achieve full equality for LGBT people here at home. That is why the Government are committed to levelling up outcomes for LGBT people: as well as the groundbreaking global conference, we are committed to banning conversion therapy, tackling hate crime, and making it easier for trans people to access the support they need.

[Wera Hobhouse]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mike Freer]

Will the hon. Lady give me one moment? I may answer her question, or I may not.

With regard to conversion therapy, as announced in the Queen’s Speech, the Government will bring forward legislation to ban that practice. In order to ensure that this legislation places victims at the centre of that work, we will launch a consultation in September this year to ensure we get it right. This will be an important and groundbreaking piece of legislation, and the first action that any UK Government have taken to truly end conversion therapy.