EU Council

Debate between William Cash and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 29th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his response and for the way he has gone about it. He is right to say that “constructive” is the correct word. I was pleased that the discussions last night did not have a tone of European Union countries demanding this set of actions while Britain argued for that set of actions. There was a mature and calm understanding that we need each other and that we need this negotiation to proceed well and have a good outcome. That is in all our interests. I think we got off on the right foot, and I will do everything I can—whether in this job or as a Back-Bench MP—to ensure that we keep those strong relationships with our European partners, because we are going to need to.

On the issue of immigration versus the single market, the right hon. Gentleman is right to say that this is the biggest and most difficult issue to deal with, whether we are in the European Union arguing for changes or outside it and trying to secure the best possible access to the single market. My answer to the problem was to bring in the welfare restrictions that I negotiated. It was incredibly tough to negotiate them, and I am sad that they will now fall away as a result of the referendum decision. There is no doubt that the next Government are going to have to work very hard on this. I personally think that access to the single market and the strength of our economy will be the single most important issue that they will have to deal with.

On the question of article 50, that will be a matter for the next Prime Minister, and there is a very good reason for that. Before we go into the tunnel of the article 50 negotiations, which have a two-year time limit, we will want to have made the best possible preparations for the precise blueprint that we want to achieve at the end. That will help Britain, and frankly it will help the other European Union countries to understand what it is that we are shooting for. They have said that there can be no negotiation without notification, but I do not think that that excludes discussions between the new Prime Minister and partners or institutions, so that we can continue to get off on the right foot. That is the strong advice that I would give to them.

The right hon. Gentleman asked about the devolved institutions. I have had conversations with the First Minister of Scotland, the First Minister of Wales and the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, and I shall continue to do so. I want them to be as involved as possible and I want their voices to be heard loud and clear.

The right hon. Gentleman also asked about legal advice, and the legal advice that I have seen is that this is a UK decision to be made by the United Kingdom Government and the United Kingdom Parliament. It has to be done in that way. I completely agree with what he said about racism. We should all reiterate the statements that we have made to the EU nationals who are here. We should thank them for their contribution and say that their rights are guaranteed while we remain in the EU and we will be working hard on that question. I am sure that all the contenders in the Conservative leadership campaign will want to make it clear that they want to safeguard for the future the rights of people from the European Union who work here and study here, but that will be a matter for them.

Finally, the right hon. Gentleman asked about suspending the fiscal rule. This feels a little bit like a stuck record. Whatever the problem or issue, his answer always seems to be: more borrowing, more spending, more taxing and more debt. I have to say that you do not get investment unless you have economic stability, and you do not have economic stability if you do not have a plan for dealing with your debts and your deficit. This has been proved the world over, including in some of his favourite countries such as Venezuela, and I really would argue against going down that route.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend has quite rightly referred to trade and co-operation with the European Union, and we on the leave side have always argued for that. Will he, however, give us some further advice? He is talking about very precise blueprints and about alternative models. Will he give us an absolute assurance that any such models or blueprints will be exclusively based on the assumption that we are repealing the European Communities Act 1972?

[The Prime Minister]

We are leaving the European Union, so surely that must be the case. The reassurance that I can give my hon. Friend is that I am not saying that there are only four or five blueprints and that Britain has to follow any one of those. Obviously, we can try to amend blueprints and have Norway-plus or Norway-minus or a better trade deal than Canada. It is important for colleagues in the House and people in the country to understand that there are some quite fundamental questions about whether we want full unrestricted access to the single market and the price we might have to pay in return, or whether we will be satisfied to have less than full access along with some other compensating advantages. We have to go through all those questions, and the more we can attach facts and figures to them, the more we will enable people to make an informed choice.

Outcome of the EU Referendum

Debate between William Cash and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 27th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

First, our focus should be to get the very best deal for the United Kingdom outside the European Union, and that should be the very best deal for Scotland as well.

I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman about the despicable acts of racism that have taken place. Let me reassure him as well that we will take every step that we can. He asked questions specifically about interest rates; that is a matter for the Governor of the Bank of England and the Monetary Policy Committee, and they set out their views in advance of the referendum. The right hon. Gentleman asked about budgets; that will be a matter for a future Government, but let me say this to him: Scotland benefits from being in two single markets—the United Kingdom and the European single market. In my view, the best outcome is to try to keep Scotland in both.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

May I pay tribute to the Prime Minister for the dignity with which he addressed the nation from 10 Downing Street on Friday? Will my right hon. Friend take a positive and simple message to the leaders of the other 27 member states of the European Council tomorrow—namely, that the voters of the United Kingdom have demonstrated the value of that great principle, the principle of democracy, for which people fought and died?

[The Prime Minister]

Let me thank my hon. Friend for his comment. Of course, when I go to the European Council tomorrow, I will report directly on the result and the decision of the British people. No one should be in any doubt about that, but it is important that we set off on this path of exiting from the European Union by trying to build as much good will as possible on both sides.

European Council

Debate between William Cash and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 21st March 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I have to say that I profoundly disagree with the hon. Gentleman. The idea that if we had found safe routes for people to come to Europe then somehow all the people-smuggling, the criminal gangs and the mass movement of people would have come to an end is complete and utter nonsense. We have to have some hard borders. A country is responsible for its borders, and if it is an external country to the European Union, it is particularly responsible for its border. The combination of harder border controls but compassion in helping refugees in the region is the right answer. We play our part by putting in the money and by taking the 20,000 refugees, but the idea that if we open up safe routes the whole problem will be solved is complete nonsense.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

Given the extraordinary difficulties that occurred with regard to the charter of fundamental rights, and the human rights and the asylum laws, how does my right hon. Friend propose that the Turkey deal will be legally, let alone politically, enforceable?

[The Prime Minister]

It is the view of the legal adviser to the European Council that what is being proposed is legal. Is it difficult to achieve? Yes, absolutely it is, because we have to consider each case individually. Is it possible, if we designate Turkey as a safe country for Syrian refugees, to return people there? Yes, it is possible. Looking at the problems we have had with mass movements of people over the years, we have to have a set of measures that break the link between getting in a boat and getting settlement. Until we do that, we are basically unable to deal with the crisis. That is what Europe has now set out to do, and we should encourage it in that goal.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between William Cash and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 9th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. Friend the Chancellor and I have consistently backed Scotland, Scottish whisky and this vital industry, but let me say this to the hon. Gentleman: on the day that the profit and loss account for Scotland has come out, we can see that Scotland would face a £15 billion gap if it were outside the United Kingdom. I dread to think what taxation would have to be levied not just on whisky, but on petrol, work, incomes and homes. That is the prospect of life outside the United Kingdom, and that is why I am so glad we voted to stay together.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

The Government have just presented three White Papers to Parliament under their self-imposed legal duty to provide information under the European Union Referendum Act 2015. The Minister for Europe, during proceedings between the two Houses, gave me an undertaking that the Government information under that Act would certainly, as he put it, be accurate and impartial. The three recent White Papers are not. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is the enforcer of the ministerial code, which demands that Ministers give accurate information to Parliament. Will he issue instructions to Foreign Office Ministers to review and correct those White Papers?

[The Prime Minister]

First, let me say to my hon. Friend that we believe in the sovereignty of Parliament. Parliament dictated that those documents would be published, and that is why they are being published. On the question of their content, their content has been prepared by civil servants under all the appropriate codes. If he does not agree with some of the content, I would say to him and to other colleagues: challenge the content. Have an argument about the content. Stop arguing about the process.

European Council

Debate between William Cash and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 22nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

First, I can confirm that I will make, as I have done today, a positive case based on Britain being stronger, Britain being safer, and Britain being better off, but this is a choice. It is important that we set out the choice and the alternative to the British people, because this is potentially the most important decision that people will make on a political issue in their lifetime. I do not want anyone to take a step into the dark without thinking the consequences through properly.

I absolutely agree with the right hon. Gentleman about one thing. Although Brussels and the institutions can be frustrating, we should never forget what brought this institution into being in the first place. Even at the most frustrating times in talks, I look round the table and think of how these countries fought one another and killed one another’s people for so long, so the dialogue and action that we take together is positive. As for the vote in Scotland, this is one UK vote.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend has spoken about national Parliaments, democracy and our sovereignty. In his Bloomberg speech, he made it clear that he regarded our national Parliament as the root of our democracy. Yesterday, he referred to the “illusion of sovereignty”. Will he explain and repudiate that statement, specifically in relation to the question now before us, our Parliament, our democracy and the making of our laws, which at this moment in time under the European Communities Act 1972, are made by a majority vote of other countries, are introduced by an unelected Commission, and are enforced by the European Court of Justice? Does he not accept that the only way of getting out of that and returning our democracy is to leave the European Union?

[The Prime Minister]

First, I have huge respect for my hon. Friend, who has campaigned on this issue for many years, and the one thing he will welcome is the fact that we are now allowing the British people a choice on whether to stay in or leave the European Union. Let me confirm that, yes, this Parliament is sovereign. We have chosen to join the European Union, and we can choose to leave it. Let me explain exactly what I meant when I said that there would in many cases be the “illusion of sovereignty” by taking one issue. We now have safeguards so that British banks and businesses cannot be discriminated against if we stay in the European Union because we are not in the euro. Were we to leave, we would not have that protection. They could discriminate against us. Frankly, I think they would discriminate against us, so we might feel more sovereign, but it would be an illusion of sovereignty because we would not have the power to protect the businesses that create jobs and livelihoods in our country.

UK-EU Renegotiation

Debate between William Cash and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

First, let me say that, yes, when this campaign comes—of course, we will first need an agreement, a recommended position from the British Government and all the rest of it—it should of course be a positive campaign. In terms of what the right hon. Gentleman says about treaty change and whether this is legally binding, as I explained, it is legally binding and it does envisage treaty change.

In terms of timing, as I explained at Prime Minister’s questions, it is a matter for the House. The House debated it and the House ruled out coinciding with the Scottish, Welsh and London elections, but the House did not rule out holding a referendum at another time. Specifically, the former First Minister, the right hon. Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond), said that six weeks was the appropriate gap. Obviously, we have to wait to see whether an agreement is reached, but where I disagree with the right hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) is that I do not believe that somehow this is confusing the issues: I think people are perfectly capable, six or more weeks after one set of elections, to consider another election. I note that the Leader of the Opposition, whose party is in control of Wales, was actually pressing me to hold the referendum on 23 June. There is obviously a range of opinions out there. I think the best thing to do is to get the deal done and then hold a referendum.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

This is all about voters’ trust. Why has my right hon. Friend, in order to stay in, bypassed so many promises and principles? Our national Parliament is the root of our democracy, as he said at Bloomberg, not a majority of red cards in other Parliaments. He said that we would have full-on treaty change, not the arrangements that have been announced to us today. We were promised a fundamental change in our relationship with the EU. We were promised that we would deal with the excessive immigrant numbers, but that has been whittled down to an issue about in-work benefits controlled by the European Court of Justice. Above all, we were told and promised that this entire package would be both legally binding and irreversible, but now it will be stitched up by a political decision by the European Council, not by a guaranteed treaty change at the right time. I have to say to the Prime Minister that this is a wholly inappropriate way of dealing with this matter.

[The Prime Minister]

I have great respect for my hon. Friend, but I have to say that, on the issue of whether it is legally binding, I really do believe he is wrong. If this document is agreed, it would be an international law decision and, as an international law decision, the European Court of Justice has to take it into account. I would make the point to him, because he follows these things very closely, that Denmark negotiated the same sort of legal opt-outs and, 23 years on, they clearly stand and are legally binding. Those are the facts.

My hon. Friend asks whether we are meeting what we set out in the promises we made. We made very clear promises in our manifesto: get Britain out of ever closer union—that is a promise that we kept; make sure we restrict immigrants’ welfare benefits—that is a promise that we are keeping; real fairness between euro-ins and euro-outs—that is a promise that we are keeping. In every area—more competitiveness, making sure subsidiarity means something—we have met the promises that we have set out.

I understand that there will be those who say, “We didn’t ask for enough”, or, “We need more reform.” I believe these are the reforms that go to the heart of the concerns of the British people. People feel that this organisation is too much of a political union; it is too bureaucratic; it is not fair for non-euro countries; and we want more control of immigration. Those four things are largely delivered through this negotiation.

I would just say this to colleagues from all parts of the House. I have sat on the Benches on this side and that side and I have heard about the Maastricht treaty, about the Lisbon treaty, about the Nice treaty and about the Amsterdam treaty, but I have never seen a Prime Minister standing at this Dispatch Box with a unilaterally achieved declaration of bringing powers back to our country. That is what we have got. That is what is within our grasp.

EU Council

Debate between William Cash and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We are going to consider this in a very proper way, as I said during the Syria debate, because there are different views among the non-governmental organisations about whether this is the right approach to take. I have said this at the Dispatch Box before. On the question of the people at Calais, we are clear that we will do everything we can to help the French with border security and with helping to process people who are in France, but at the end of the day, people do not have the right to try to break into Britain against our rules. Those people in Calais should be properly processed and dealt with by the French.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend has just stated that his package would “require changes” that are “legally binding and irreversible”. As there is no treaty change on offer, on what grounds can he legitimately and honestly contend that an international agreement registered at the UN would be legally binding and irreversible, and that voters—this is what matters—could absolutely rely on it when they cast their votes? Will this be a cast-iron guarantee?

[The Prime Minister]

There have been occasions when countries have voted in referendums, or indeed when we have voted in this House on treaty proposals, before they are adopted and implemented by every other country. What I have said is that we need changes that are legally binding and irreversible, and those are the changes I seek.

G20 and Paris Attacks

Debate between William Cash and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Tuesday 17th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the right hon. Lady for what she says. She is right that, as the external border of Europe, Greece plays an absolutely vital role and that it is vital that the registration of migrants as they arrive takes place properly. My understanding is that we have given more, I think, than any other country in Europe to the European Asylum Support Office, EASO, so we are certainly putting in the resources, even though, effectively for us, Greece is not our external border; our external border is the border controls at Calais, because we are not part of Schengen. So we are doing what we can; we will continue to see whether more can be done, but she is right that making sure that people can be properly documented as they arrive will be a vital part of our security.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

The planned carnage in Paris shows the danger of allowing declared jihadists to return to their country of origin. Will my right hon. Friend be good enough to review the counter-terrorism legislation to prevent declared UK jihadists from returning to the United Kingdom, whatever human rights or the charter of fundamental rights may say? We must put the lives of the people of this country before human rights.

[The Prime Minister]

I thank my hon. Friend for his point, and I have a huge amount of sympathy with it, and that is why in the counter-terrorism legislation that we passed we took further steps to confiscate people’s passports. If someone is a dual national, we can strip them of their UK citizenship if we think that they no longer merit citizenship of this country. We now have the power—it was controversial but the Home Secretary and I pushed it forward—to exclude temporarily even British nationals from returning to the UK. I am all for looking at options for going further to make sure that we keep ourselves safe, but it was very contentious at the time. This situation is demonstrating that we were right to stick to our guns.

European Council

Debate between William Cash and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 19th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Apart, of course, from that of Wales the day before—that must have been the Cameron in me coming out. However, the match was heartbreaking to watch.

The right hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) raised the issue of helping refugees and other European Union countries. Although we are not in Schengen and although we are not taking part in the quota, we are helping Frontex, the border organisation, of which we are not formally part. Moreover, Britain has made one of the biggest contributions in sending staff to the hotspots that are being established to help with the fingerprinting and processing of migrants so that they can be properly registered and looked after.

As for the steel crisis, it is not mentioned in the conclusions because this was a European Council meeting to talk almost purely about migration. The discussion went on for hours because of the disagreements about hotspots and how this way of moving migrants around Europe should work. However, the British Government are absolutely clear that we will do everything that we can to support and help our steel industry, and that includes the vital discussions that we have held with the European Commission about state aid.

On renegotiation, I know the right hon. Gentleman is disappointed that more is not set out in the conclusions, but they set out what is necessary. The process was launched in June, there was an update in October, talks are progressing very well and we will have further discussions in December. I am confident that we will reach a good deal and, when we do, I look forward to his support.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

On renegotiation, will my right hon. Friend recognise that even if the words “ever-closer union” were removed from treaties in the future, it would not change any of our existing EU obligations and laws, nor fundamentally change our relationship with the EU under the existing treaties? Will he please comment on that?

[The Prime Minister]

The issue of ever-closer union is important both symbolically and legally. It is important symbolically because the British people always felt that we were told we were joining a common market, and were never really told enough about this political union, which we have never been happy with. I want to make it explicit that for us it is principally a common market and not an ever-closer union, but this concept does have legal force because ever-closer union has been used by the courts to enforce centralising judgments and I want that to change.

Syria: Refugees and Counter-terrorism

Debate between William Cash and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 7th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The point about the migration target is that the Office for National Statistics has calculated migration figures in the same way for many, many years. It includes refugees as well as other migrants. I think the British public wants to know that the system as a whole—for migration and for those seeking asylum —is under control. I am absolutely clear that we are committed to taking 20,000 Syrian refugees, and we will meet that target.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Crispin Blunt) was quite right to emphasise the World Food Programme and the fact that many other European countries have simply not subscribed enough. The website for the World Food Programme demonstrates that the United Kingdom has given twice as much as Germany over the past year and 45% more than Germany over the past five years. Perhaps that is something the Prime Minister would like to take up with Angela Merkel.

[The Prime Minister]

Everyone in Europe is taking action, and it is important that, collectively, we work together to deliver what is needed. On the issue of providing resources not just to the World Food Programme and to Syrian refugee camps but to the countries from which these people are coming in order to stabilise them, there is no doubt in my mind that Britain is leading the way.

Tunisia, and European Council

Debate between William Cash and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 29th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the hon. Lady for the thoughtful way in which she put her question. My answer is that British Muslims, Imams, mosques, community centres and Muslims in our communities are stepping up and saying that they condemn utterly what ISIL does and saying that it is not in their name. Indeed #NotInMyName was praised by President Obama in his speech at the UN. My argument is, I am afraid, that we all have to go on doing that—British Muslims included—for as long as this poisonous ideology exists. I say to British Muslims that, the fact is, these people are taking their religion of peace and perverting it. That is the reason for standing up and saying, “You must not do this. This is not what we believe in or what we are about.” The British Government, who include Muslims in their number, will back all Muslims who do that.

My second point is that we would be making a mistake if we said that we need just to confront those who support violence. Some people and some organisations—frankly, we know which organisations—go along with some of the narrative, think that a caliphate might not be such a bad idea, that Christians and Muslims cannot really live together and that democracy is inferior to another sort of system, and do not believe in equality. Those are people that we must call out, too. I want us to appeal to young British Muslims about what this country can be for them. This is a great multiracial democracy and a country of opportunity and we must also raise our game, as it were, and make this a society into which people want to integrate. It is time to speak out on both fronts. There is a need for integration, but also the need to confront a narrative of extremism, even if it stops short of violence.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

I join the Prime Minister in expressing strong words in condemnation of the evil slaughter of British citizens and others in Tunisia and in condolence for the bereaved.

At the European Council meeting, today and recently my right hon. Friend rightly reaffirmed the Common Market, British courts for British laws, the sovereignty and accountability of our national Parliament and the fundamental change in our relationship with the EU and the eurozone to which many will say yes, yes, yes. He has been buffeted by criticism from other European leaders, who are clearly not listening and who are demanding more integration rather than less. Hope springs eternal, but given his firm objectives in our vital national interests and the EU leaders’ constant criticism of them, what would it take for my right hon. Friend to recommend a no vote?

[The Prime Minister]

I go to these negotiations as an optimist and a believer that we can get a good deal for Britain. I have now had meetings with all 27 Presidents and Prime Ministers in Europe, in what has been dubbed something of an eating tour around the European Union. I am not saying that they instantly all agreed to the points that Britain is raising, but they are open to the sorts of reforms that I believe are necessary.