17:56 - Division on Amendment 14 - Ayes: 213 / Noes: 209 - Amendment 14 agreed.
19:15 - Division on Amendment 22 - Ayes: 187 / Noes: 188 - Amendment 22 disagreed.
Lord Liddle
My Lords, we have had a long debate on this set of amendments. We on the opposition Front Bench strongly support this group of amendments, spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. I shall focus our debate on Report on the essence of these amendments, which is to reduce the 56 varieties of referendum lock that the Bill contains to referenda on new treaties and three major issues: joining the euro, joining Schengen and the setting up of a single European army or force, as my noble friend Lady Symons mentioned.
What people who accuse us of proposing a set of wrecking amendments have to take into account is that the Bill as amended would be a substantial step forward in public accountability as far as the European Union is concerned. There could be no major new treaties containing the kind of proposal that former Prime Minister Tony Blair floated last week—for an elected president of the European Union—without a referendum. We could not join the euro, which clearly might now mean significant steps towards a fiscal union, under the amendments in this group. We could not join Schengen, which would certainly mean abolishing our own border controls and replacing them with border controls at the EU frontier, a common set of asylum rules, burden sharing and so on. Under the amendments that we are proposing, that would be subject to a referendum, as would a major step towards common defence.
Therefore, these amendments do not wreck this Bill; they just make it more sensible and get rid of the huge number of referenda in it. That is wholly in line with the spirit of your Lordships’ Constitution Committee’s recommendation that referenda should be confined to matters of major constitutional significance. One of the curiosities of the many days of debate that we have had is that we have never heard why the Government think they can set aside in this way the recommendations of your Lordships’ committee on these specific matters when it comes to the European Union. On all these other matters—on which, if this amendment were passed, there would be no need for a referendum—there would still be a need for an Act of Parliament. That is an enormous change from the position that we are in now. We are not wrecking this Bill; we are trying to improve it. I hope that on that basis the Government might be prepared to show a flexibility that they have so far lacked in these debates.
One of the very wise contributions to this discussion was made by my noble friend Lord Rowlands. In a distinguished career in another place, he was a sceptic in the proper sense of the word and had to be convinced about the case for Britain’s membership of the European Union and the pooling of sovereignty that it involved. However, as he said, we are setting up a far too overcomplicated process of accountability with the plethora of referendums proposed. What I find difficult about this is why the presumed lack of legitimacy of the European Union is seen as being so peculiar and special compared with the huge problems that our democracy as a whole faces in today’s world.
I looked at the Eurobarometer opinion poll for October 2010—that poll asks people questions about trust on a regular basis—and found that a very depressing 64 per cent of the British people do not trust the European Union. That is why we accept that there is a legitimacy problem. However, it seems that 66 per cent do not trust the British Parliament, 67 per cent do not trust the UK Government and 82 per cent do not trust political parties in Britain, so what is so peculiar about the lack of legitimacy of the European Union compared with the rest of our democracy?
It is argued either that confidence in Europe has been destroyed by so-called competence creep or that we face lots of threats to our sovereignty in future. As my noble friend Lord Triesman has said many times, if you are in government and do not want to do something, you just say no. The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, made a very interesting speech in which he pointed out that there is a very distinctive issue about the irreversible nature of the surrenders of sovereignty that take place in the European Union and the problems of a Union that moves by a process of intergovernmental compromise. Many of us who are pro-Europeans have been worried about this issue for many years and have wanted to think of ways of closing that democratic deficit. Certainly, we should have a debate about the role of the European Parliament, which plays a much bigger role now than it did 15 years ago, largely because of the treaties that the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, when she was leading for the Government, put through this House. However, I presume that the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, would not regard those treaties or the strengthening of the European Parliament as being good things. I agree with him that we have to think of ways of addressing that democratic deficit, but I suspect that he is not prepared to accept these kinds of remedies.
There is a problem of legitimacy vis-à-vis Europe that is particular to Britain, because over decades we have failed to establish a cross-party consensus about our membership of the European Union and failed to argue the case for British membership with a united voice. Amendment 31—which we shall discuss later; the noble Lord, Lord Radice, moved it in Committee—will try to address that problem in part. However, there is another explanation of why the EU has run into problems. The explanation is, as I said at Second Reading, that there are two ways of looking at legitimacy. One is to think about it in terms of how decisions are approved, but the other is to think about whether the institution is effective at doing the job that it is supposed to do. One of the problems with Europe is that it is not as effective as it could be, and this causes public disillusion.
I looked at a poll carried out last November about attitudes to the European Union. If you ask a general question—do people think that we should co-operate more or do they want us to loosen the links with the European Union?—only 21 per cent want us to co-operate more, but 49 per cent would have us loosen the links. However, when you ask people questions about specific areas such as climate change, attacking terrorism and crime, regulating banks, minimum rights for workers, or minimum levels of tax on business, a strong majority in Britain want the European Union to do more. I therefore argue that it is not a question just of how decisions are taken, but of how we make Europe effective. That is what we ought to focus on in our debate.
Finally, in support of the amendment, perhaps I may say that we have had a good and long debate, but one of the depressing things about it is a tendency to be historical, to look back to the past, to take trips down memory lane, and to look at the debates in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. I am very prone to that tendency, and this is therefore a self-criticism. When we think about Europe, we really should remember that the world of which the European Union is part is transforming itself at enormous speed. Since the Maastricht treaty, communism has fallen and that aspect of the world has changed enormously, the Arab world is in revolution, China has risen enormously as a power, and the weight of the European Union in the world is decreasing at a rapid rate. Our weight in the world as the United Kingdom is decreasing at an even more rapid rate.
Yet, in response to these extraordinary developments of the past 20 years, this Government have come forward with a policy on Europe that is essentially, “Thus far and no further”. In other words, “We have no imagination about how the European Union might develop. We are saying there should be no change without a referendum”. This is a depressing attitude that destroys the flexibility that a British Government should have to respond to an unpredictable and unknowable future. I urge the House to support these amendments because they confine referendums to the really big issues on which the people ought to decide.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, we have had a rather amazing debate in which I found all kinds of echoes of agreement that did not seem to be there in the darker days of May when your Lordships first went into Committee to examine the details of the Bill. We have come a long way since then and there seems to be a greater appreciation—not necessarily combined with agreement—about some of the issues that the Bill seeks to address.
We have of course been down memory lane with the various comments by noble Lords who have been extremely experienced in European affairs over almost half a century. Edmund Burke featured again, although I must say that the more I think about that great man, the more I hear in my mind his remark, “Show me the man; show me the things”. In other words, he was interested in the situation as it actually was, rather than in the high theory of how it ought to be. I did not agree with the final remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle. He should not be depressed because the possibilities for our leading in European reform are much greater than he accepts, although he is an expert in these matters. He is entirely right to say that the landscape has changed and that we are dealing with an entirely new situation.
Lord Goodhart
I accept that other countries in the European Union have been very reluctant, as have our Government, to join up to the EPPO and I think it is unlikely that there will ever be an EPPO, but that is mostly because of the inadequacies of the legal system in a number of those countries. For this country, under Article 86 of TFEU:
“The European Public Prosecutor's Office shall be responsible for investigating, prosecuting and bringing to judgment … the perpetrators of, and accomplices in, offences against the Union's financial interests, as determined by … regulation”.
That makes it perfectly clear that those who would suffer would not be ordinary citizens in this country. If the EPPO was brought into this country, those who would be subject to it would be international criminals and some major commercial companies. It would not affect the ordinary people in this country in the slightest.
Lord Howell of Guildford
I respect what my noble friend is saying, but one has only to pause for a moment and think about the phrase, the European Union's financial interests. Who will interpret that? How widely or narrowly will that be interpreted? Will offences be generated by the misuse of structural funds or other arrangements to do with the EU's finances? We do not know. We do not know who will define these things, but we can see clearly that they may well lead to a prosecution authority outside the UK, when we have our own prosecution authorities which are perfectly adequate in most—indeed, in all—cases to deal with those matters. We will have a prosecution authority from outside the United Kingdom for the first time charging and prosecuting British citizens. That is one reason why a huge uncertainty hangs over that.
Furthermore, once set up, although it is confined to EU financial interests now, the range can spread. Who is to say that it may not? We do not know. All those matters are reasons why many European countries—possibly the majority—are reluctant to see a development of that kind and why, if a Government in this country decided to change their mind, flatly against what the previous Labour Government wanted and flatly against what the present Government want, that should certainly be one item that should be put to a referendum.
I turn now to some of the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, which were very reasonably put. I know that he felt that he was in a consensual and concessionary mood and looked for some reciprocity from the Government. In that, I fear that he will be disappointed. The passerelles allowing for a move to QMV, which are listed in Clause 6(5), have been included simply because they are covered by Schedule 1. That is obvious to most of your Lordships. It would be wildly illogical to provide for a referendum on an amending treaty which abolished those vetoes without also providing for a referendum on any decision to use the passerelles attached to the specific articles listed in Clause 6(5), which would achieve exactly the same result. That would be tantamount to locking the front and back doors of the house—not closing them, locking them; and not throwing away the key either, but giving the key to the British people—but leaving the kitchen window open.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
On one small point of fact, the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said that we have just given up the veto on the annual budget. The annual budget has been adopted by a majority vote by a provision of the Treaty of Rome which was negotiated before we joined, which we have applied. Therefore, it has been taken by a majority vote throughout the period of our membership. It really is not wise to adduce changes which have not taken place during the period of our membership.
Lord Howell of Guildford
I totally disagree; I think that it is pertinent and a healthy reminder of what happens. We can contribute all we wish to in all these vital areas. The surrender of the veto can lead to consequences which can be extremely dangerous.
Finally, I should like to say a word on common defence, because that has come up and it is important. Amendments 15 and 16 suggest that the only controversial element of a decision to move to common defence would be a decision to develop a single integrated military force—in other words, that it is only that particular interpretation of common defence which is of real concern.
Successive Governments and successive Ministers, including noble Lords sitting here now in the Chamber, have rightly said that we do not support the introduction of a common defence. A Minister said:
“We oppose the introduction of common defence either at 25”—
there were 25 members when this was said—
“or through enhanced co-operation. We think it is divisive and a duplication of NATO”.
We do not support,
“anything such as the creation of standing inner groups or an inner core on ESDP,
which,
“would undermine the inclusive, flexible model of ESDP that the EU and NATO”—[Official Report, 11/5/04; col. 242]—
have agreed. That comes from a Minister in a previous Government. It is extremely telling and sums up the case very well. However, there would be confusion about any decision that resulted in the establishment of a single integrated military force. For example, would the establishment of an integrated command structure or integrated units or the achievement of integrated budgets count? It is just that lack of clarity that allows for the sort of competence-creep which caused so much distrust and which we are trying to overcome in the Bill.
In addition, we have concerns about a move to a common defence that goes beyond the establishment of a common force. A decision to move to a common defence could lead to the loss by the British Parliament of final decisions over whether to send our troops into harm’s way. Like the previous Government, we think it is vital that the UK is able to maintain an independent defence policy. Indeed, it was one of the red lines during negotiation of the Lisbon treaty, and I cannot understand the Labour Opposition wanting to move away from that today. I accept that a common defence is ill defined but that problem would not be solved with this amendment, which could apply only to the UK. Instead, our promise is that any decision to move to a common defence should be subject to the full scrutiny of the British public.
I have gone on for a long time but this has been a huge debate. There are many vital issues to address and it would be wrong to ignore them. I am pleased that noble Lords recognise the utility of the referendum lock in its application to any proposal to abolish our border controls or adopt the euro. However, I ask your Lordships also to consider the sheer inconsistency of seeking to remove from Clause 6 other measures that would transfer further competence and power from the UK to the EU. They are directly related to the crucial six issues on which successive Governments have insisted they want to protect Britain while being forward and active in encouraging the European Union within their full competences. This is a good European policy and the Bill reinforces it. It should be supported and the amendment should be withdrawn.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this lengthy and interesting debate. I hope that I may be forgiven for saying that there were moments during the afternoon when I thought we were moving back to the future—namely, heading rapidly towards a Second Reading debate. A fair number of contributions bore little relation to the amendments on the Marshalled List but a great deal to the discussions that we had during Second Reading. However, I shall not follow that road now, when we need to focus on the amendments in a much more controlled way.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, for his very thoughtful response and for being so frank about the fact that, although those in whose names the amendments stand were introducing an element of compromise, he did not intend to do so. That was made extremely clear and I hope that all those who listened to the debate will draw the appropriate conclusions from the lack of flexibility on the part of the Government.
There are not many detailed points that need to be referred to. A certain amount of a meal was made by those who spoke against the wording of the amendment relating to an integrated military force. What we are talking about is fairly obvious. We are talking about our old friend—much beloved of the Daily Mail—the European army. We are talking about, for example, our treaty commitment in NATO under which we are part of an integrated military force. I only say to the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, that he will know very well that the NATO obligations apply in exactly the same way to the Navy and the Air Force as they do to the Army. The use of the word “military” is not exclusive to the Army. Therefore, it is obvious what the amendment tries to do: it tries to ensure that, if we were ever to have a British Government who wanted to move in that direction, they would have to submit the matter to a referendum. That is a recognition by those in whose names the amendments stand that the Government are right to have identified that issue as one of fundamental constitutional significance. However, I am afraid that issues such as whom we fought alongside in Iraq are totally irrelevant. We did not fight in Iraq on the basis of any treaty whatever; we fought on the basis of a coalition of the willing without a legal base. Therefore, we should not get muddled up with that issue. There seems to be less trouble about the euro and Schengen. Then, ultimately we come back to the question of whether we should be trying to reduce the number of potential individual referendums. The arguments for that are very strong.
I have been a little saddened by the way in which so many of the protagonists of the Bill and the opponents of the amendments have denigrated the parliamentary process. They have, in fact, thrown up their hands and said that it is completely useless. They seem to have discovered the whipping system, which I think has been in effect since the 18th century or perhaps even earlier, as being at the root of all this evil. That is pretty sad. There are quite a lot of former Whips sitting here and I do not see them covering their heads in sackcloth and ashes and saying that they made terrible mistakes by doing so. It has been part of our constitutional practice for a very long time and we have managed to achieve greater constitutional stability than a lot of countries that do not have it. It is a bit sad that we should be heading off in the direction of plebiscitary democracy-a-go-go instead of thinking about how to make our parliamentary institutions work more effectively. That is why one of the most important points made by the proponents of the amendments is the fact that you need primary legislation for every single change in the Bill. That is really important. It is the way to make parliamentary scrutiny more effective and that is what is needed—not a dash towards plebiscites, which is a very revolutionary approach. I have to say that it comes from a rather unlikely band of revolutionaries from a party whose name suggests that they are counter-revolutionaries. Nevertheless, I think that it is a move in the wrong direction and I should therefore like to test the opinion of the House.