The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr Simon Burns)
I, too, begin by congratulating the hon. Members for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) and for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) on securing the debate. It is clearly a topic that arouses considerable interest, as has been seen in hon. Members’ speeches. I suspect that the policies advocated by the Greek chorus on one part of the Opposition Benches vary somewhat from the policies of the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) on another part of the those Benches.
I particularly enjoyed the thoughtful speeches of my hon. Friends the Members for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) and for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), and there was an interesting speech from the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), but I gently remind him that it is this Conservative and Liberal Democrat coalition Government—and not simply the Liberal Democrats—who are making such record investments in our rail infrastructure.
As usual, I listened with considerable care and interest to the extremely thoughtful speech of the hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley), who raised a number of issues. First, he asked whether the headquarters would be in York. I understand why he did so: the issue is important to him, because York is his constituency. Obviously we would not expect to specify the location of the headquarters in any future franchise proposals, but there is nothing to prevent the new franchise company from choosing to locate its headquarters in York, especially given the current precedent.
The hon. Gentleman sought to tempt me down another route, asking for an independent commission to be set up to establish whether passengers wanted services to be taken away from Directly Operated Railways. I am afraid that I must disappoint him. I will not be tempted on to the wayside. We have no plans to set up any such commission, although perhaps I can give him some consolation. We are working with the independent body Passenger Focus to ensure that we understand what passengers, on the basis of their own experiences, want from their rail service, and that will influence any proposals that emerge from the franchise process.
The hon. Members for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald), for Easington (Grahame M. Morris), for Livingston (Graeme Morrice), for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) and for Blyth Valley (Mr Campbell) all made their customary contributions. I am afraid that, while their delivery may have gained in rapidity, theirs is a message that I have heard many times before. I am sorry that they are not on message in relation to their hon. Friend the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood). I think it would be fair to say—they will be proud of this—that they would like an outright renationalisation of the whole railway system.
Mr Burns
No, but I think that that conclusion could be drawn from what the hon. Gentleman has said. [Interruption.] He is being a little too coy now. We do know his history; he does have form. I do not think that even the hon. Member for Nottingham South is advocating an outright renationalisation.
The debate is so important, and of so much interest to so many people, because the east coast franchise serves so many communities and businesses, and helps to drive the economy along the length of the country, from London in the south to Aberdeen and Inverness in Scotland. I am grateful for my second opportunity in less than three weeks to discuss the franchise. We needed to revisit the issue today because Members felt that, given the high level of interest, the last debate—which was restricted to one and a half hours—was not long enough.
It is clear that the inter-city coast franchise is a valuable one. That, in my view, is a major part of why it should be returned to the private sector as soon as possible, as was originally envisaged by Lord Adonis when he brought it into temporary public ownership as Secretary of State in 2009. He said—I am repeating this for a reason—
“I do not believe that it would be in the public interest for us to have a nationalised train operating company indefinitely.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 1 July 2009; Vol. 712, c. 232.]
The work that has been done on the east coast franchise in the last three and a half years of public ownership, to which many Members have rightly referred, will allow an operator from the private sector to apply its own skills and innovative thinking to building long-term value for both the taxpayer and passengers on the route. I was informed during the Westminster Hall debate two weeks ago that Lord Adonis had changed his views on the ownership of the franchise, but I have not, and the Government have not. We remain committed to obtaining, for east coast passengers and for the taxpayer, the great benefits of franchising that we have seen since privatisation.
I think it is very interesting that the noble Lord and the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), along with the shadow Secretary of State, put out a press release this morning in advance of the debate. I would love to know the date of the telephone conversation the hon. Member for Nottingham South had with Lord Adonis when he told her he had changed his mind. I would be very grateful if she would intervene and tell me. [Interruption.] She says that she had a telephone conversation—[Interruption.] She said she never had one?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. We must have a debate across the Dispatch Box so it can be recorded. We do not want prompting and responses from any Member who does not have the Floor Minister, you have the Floor.
Lilian Greenwood
I intervene merely to confirm that I have not had any telephone conversation with the noble Lord since we last spoke over the Dispatch Box.
Mr Burns
I accept the apology.
I have to say to the hon. Member for Nottingham South that that was an interesting and carefully worded response. I was not asking when she had a conversation since the last debate; I asked when she had the conversation in which Lord Adonis told her he had changed his mind. I am not going to get an answer, however, so we will make some progress.
Mr Burns
No, I want to make some progress.
By returning the east coast franchise to a private sector operator, we will provide certainty of ownership and much longer-term planning horizons that are not available to public sector operators. That is vital at a time when this Government are making significant investment in the franchise, both in the infrastructure through our rail investment strategy and in new rolling stock as part of the inter-city express programme. A strong private sector partner will be able to build on that investment and work with local stakeholders, the Department and the railway industry to ensure that the best possible deal is delivered for passengers and taxpayers.
I heard the concerns raised by a number of hon. Members about services along the line and what they would like to see for their constituents and the service in general in any future provision.
Lilian Greenwood
The Minister recently said the east coast needs a long-term private sector partner that is able to cope with the totality of this change programme. Will he explain to the House in plain English what precisely he meant by that?
Mr Burns
Absolutely, and doing so will also help answer the points made by the hon. Member for Livingston. The Government are investing significantly in the east coast main line because its infrastructure needs to be improved and enhanced, but Governments are not awash with unlimited amounts of money. We are more ambitious for the east coast main line, and we believe from the experience of other franchisees that they are prepared to invest their money as well, to build on the investment that the Government provide, through Network Rail and other sources, to ensure that there is more investment in improving services for passengers, which is the key aim. That is why this Government are making record amounts of investment in infrastructure, amounting to billions and billions of pounds; such is our commitment to improving passenger services.
Mr Burns
No, because I am running out of time.
Part of the success of franchising comes from having both a private sector that is willing and able to invest and manage risks and a Government who have the ability to step in, in the short term, to ensure the continued service of the railways in the event of a franchise failure. While we do everything we can to avoid such failure, we must be in a position to step in so that there is a continuation of service if a franchisee were to get into trouble, as happened with National Express on the east coast main line in 2009. That is the whole purpose of DOR. It is not a company like other companies providing franchise services within the rail network. It is there as a company of last resort in an emergency to ensure continuity of service under the Railways Acts. This should never be considered a long-term solution, and it is not an alternative model to franchising. Many Members totally misunderstood or did not get that point. This is fundamental: DOR is not an alternative model to franchising. We firmly believe that the private sector is best placed to deliver the best value for the passenger and taxpayer, and DOR allows us to make that choice.
Mr Burns
No; I am running out of time. The nature of Directly Operated Railways, as an interim measure and operator of last resort, means it would not be right or practicable for it to plan beyond the short term. In order to provide the stability and innovation that is needed for any business, in particular a rail franchise that serves the public, it is necessary to be able to plan well into the future and make investment decisions that have a horizon beyond the short term. To meet this need, the inter-city east coast franchise must be transferred back to the private sector.
A number of Members have suggested that East Coast should be maintained in public ownership for an extended period to provide a comparator or baseline for future private sector operators on the franchise, or against operators on other parts of the network. This approach does not work. All franchises are different, and with changes to charges and funding occurring every five years, they even differ from themselves over time. Any attempt directly to compare one franchise with another, or even one incumbent with another on the same franchise, ends up simply comparing apples with pears. East Coast, a large inter-city franchise, is obviously different from Essex Thameside, a franchise providing commuter services on a much smaller route. Clearly, it would be folly to try to make valid comparisons between them. However, even with the apparently similar inter-city west coast franchise, differences in fleet size, cost base, network grant, investment plans, disruption and other factors make drawing a valid comparison with East Coast almost impossible.
There is a comparator already in existence. In the past 17 years since privatisation, the number of passengers using the railways has doubled from 750 million to 1.5 billion. The number of journeys has doubled, and the amount of freight moving off our congested roads and on to the railways has increased by 60%. The comparator is the British Rail model that satisfied no one, failed to respond to its customers and was totally unsuccessful.