Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
The Minister for Employment (Priti Patel)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Nuttall.
I congratulate the hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Marie Rimmer) on securing the debate and on her contribution. I thank all Members present for their good, strong and wide-ranging contributions, including my hon. Friends the Members for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans), for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), for Cheadle (Mary Robinson), for Bolton West (Chris Green) and for Ribble Valley (Mr Evans) and the hon. Members for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) and for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue), to name but a few. I hope to cover many of the points they raised.
The debate has been interesting because of its content and the nature and variety of the issues raised. My opening remarks, however, will focus on what the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) said. I, too, welcome him to his new role. He rightly highlighted language and its use, which are incredibly important when discussing people, welfare, benefits and access to welfare. However, I do not accept his assessment that the Government use divisive language. I do not see the Government’s focus of ensuring that work always pays and that Britain moves from being a low-wage, high-welfare and high-tax society to being a higher-wage, lower-welfare and lower-tax society as divisive. Nor do I see as divisive the language used by the Prime Minister this week when he announced our life chances strategy, which is to do with this very issue of welfare and transforming people’s lives.
This Government and the Conservative party are focused on helping people with multiple barriers to their life chances, or with difficulties in life, so that they can get back into work or secure their routes to employment, which the debate has touched on. Importantly, we are securing the right kind of opportunities for all individuals. That is the right thing to do and is what all hon. Members seek to do when they are elected as Members of Parliament to represent their constituents.
Fiona Bruce
I am sorry to interrupt the Minister when she is in full flow, as she often is. Will she clarify one point that arose earlier in the debate when the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) spoke about a “named contact”? I confirmed that, under universal credit, as I understood it, a named personal contact will not only act as a work coach, but also, according to the Under-Secretary of State for Disabled People in a debate on 6 January,
“help them to deal with their individual case when they are navigating complicated benefit systems”.—[Official Report, 6 January 2016; Vol. 604, c. 302.]
Will the Minister confirm that the named contact will supply the support necessary for people both to access their benefits and to get into work?
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Claimants have access to personalised and dedicated support via a named work coach. Indeed, I have been to many of our jobcentres and sat in on universal credit interviews with claimants and work coaches. There is additional support available for claimants who require help with housing and other benefits, arrears payments or even budgeting.
It is therefore worth highlighting how much our welfare system has moved on, compared with the complex and distorted system that existed previously. Many years ago we had a number of benefits but, fundamentally, universal credit has rolled six benefits into one to streamline our system and to make it less complicated. The more complex a benefits system is, as we saw in the past, the more difficult it becomes to support individuals—they spend more time navigating the system than looking for or being supported into work.
All that goes back to some of the fundamental principles of the universal credit: it can support individuals and families not only in having a job, but in their journey to employment. Once they are in work and achieve sustained employment, they get support to secure long-term employment or to work more hours, which removes the barriers that existed under the previous system.
As we have said, universal credit supports individuals to make progress into work in particular. Yes, people are supported by the wages that they earn and benefits they receive at the same time, but, unlike in previous systems, we do not have the barrier of a 16-hour work requirement that may have caused people to restrict their working in order to avoid losing benefits. That is part of the changes brought in by universal credit, which stays with the claimants when they move into work and gradually reduces as their earnings increase. Therefore, people—in particular those on low incomes—do not lose their benefits all at once.
Nick Thomas-Symonds
Lord Freud has said that there will be an automatic movement from tax credits to universal credit in two situations: “repartnering” and a
“new member joining the household”.
Will the Minister confirm that, if someone gets married or has a child, they will be moved from tax credits to universal credit?
Priti Patel
We are clear that people being moved on to universal credit from tax credits will be supported and will not lose out. A fundamental principle of universal credit is that it removes barriers that may have existed and, importantly, it gives people the support they need when they come on to it. That is different from previous systems. It is different from tax credits, for example, which did not provide support for people when they wanted to increase their hours and earnings.
The previous system was fragmented and there was little incentive for people to take up even a few more hours of employment, but under universal credit people can benefit as soon as they start to work. It is a simpler system to understand. It comes back to the point that we have support in our jobcentres to help people to extend their hours of work or, when they are moved on to universal credit, to understand the system and support them.
That is different from what existed before. Under universal credit, no one will have to worry about the Government asking for money back because the real-time information system connects the employer and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs on the number of hours worked. That is dramatically different from the situation when tax credits was introduced and millions of low-income families faced uncertainty about owing money back to HMRC at the end of the year. I am sure all Members have dealt with many examples of casework in that area.
I want to come on to the points raised, because I am conscious of time. There is evidence that universal credit is getting people into work and helping them stay in work. We have reviewed universal credit and, as a result of the support that people are given, we see that they spend 50% more time looking for work. We now see more universal credit claimants moving into employment compared with JSA claimants thanks to the focused support they get through their single point of contact, their work coach and other means.
Mr Nigel Evans
Is not the point—surely this helped win us the general election—the message that no one should be better off out of work than in work? With the national living wage and higher thresholds, we have ensured that far more people who are in work will keep more of their money.
Priti Patel
My hon. Friend is absolutely right about people keeping more of the money that they earn rather than going through the process of having more taken away and then recycled through benefits such as tax credits. It is also worth reflecting on the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale. He mentioned Northwich jobcentre, which has done a great deal of work to support people on universal credit. The award that the Secretary of State gave to staff members there shows how they are supporting people and transforming lives, which is fundamental to the welfare reforms that we are bringing in.
Many comments were made about universal credit in terms of the process, the roll-out and delays. I do not agree with some of the assessments and analysis given, and those with reference to the OBR in particular. We are rolling out universal credit as planned. Importantly, we no longer believe in the “big bang” model used in previous systems such as tax credits, which when introduced brought a great deal of chaos to jobcentres and the welfare system. We have adopted a test-and-learn approach to ensure safe and secure delivery and, importantly, to ensure that we can learn from individuals as they go through the process.
We have an enhanced digital service, which makes it clear immediately that a claim has not been progressed and that further information is needed. Jobcentre Plus and work coaches speak well of the system. I have seen it in action, with the immediate way in which data are exchanged and claims are processed. We have faster electronic payments to allow the Department to make payments via BACS on the same day to minimise further delays, because of course people need to be supported.
I do not agree with the comments made about the report from Citizens Advice, because we know that the research for that was based on anecdotal evidence from a small group of current UC claimants—the sample was less than 1%. Even Citizens Advice said that that was not representative of all claimants on universal credit.
We have universal support working alongside universal credit, which offers wraparound support for those who need it. That comes back to the points raised about no two individuals being the same. Situations are different for claimers and no one can count for the life circumstances of individuals, so universal support provides that wraparound support.
Jonathan Reynolds
It sounds a little inconsistent to say that the Government did not want a big bang approach and want to learn from the roll-out, but then the Minister immediately dismissed one of the most useful and authoritative reports on the roll-out in our area. That report includes a number of cases that, based on my constituency surgeries, are spot on in the problems identified.
Priti Patel
We are clear that we have an agile test-and-learn system. That is not a big bang approach. With all due respect to Labour Members, previous Governments went for the big bang approach on welfare systems and there were consequences: I highlight again the tax credits example.
I will wrap up, because I am conscious of time. In terms of incentives and support, from April we are increasing the amount of eligible childcare cost in universal credit to 85%. That will make a remarkable difference to families. Welfare is about much more than just giving people money. It is about removing barriers for individuals, understanding circumstances and giving people the support they need to get on in life.