(5 years, 6 months ago)
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will reassess their level of preparedness for not reaching a negotiated agreement with the EU in the light of the report by the National Audit Office, The UK border: preparedness for EU exit, published on 24 October.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.
The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)
My Lords, extensive work to prepare for no deal has been under way for two years. Robust plans are in place to ensure that the border continues to operate from the day that we leave. We will always ensure that we have the necessary resources to keep the border secure. That is why we are recruiting over 600 Border Force officers to prepare for the day that we leave, in addition to the 300 officers who will be deployed by the end of 2018.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, the Prime Minister said no deal is better than a bad deal, but now the NAO says the border and HMRC systems needed under WTO rules simply cannot be implemented in time. Business cannot prepare; the car industry warns about the catastrophic impact that no deal would have on its manufacture; ports would be jammed, even without Mr Grayling’s flotilla; and medicines would be in short supply—to say nothing of the urgent legislation required in this House. Is it not irresponsible, even reckless, to continue to threaten no deal? Having got to the cliff edge and looked over, should the Government not be saying, “Better not”?
Lord Callanan
I am not sure what the noble Baroness is asking us to do here. We do not want no deal, but as a responsible Government, we need to prepare for it. Is the Labour Party saying that it would accept any deal given to it? We want a deal, we are working for a deal, we are negotiating for a deal, but putting in place preparations in case there is no deal is the responsible thing to do. That is what a responsible Government should do.
Baroness Ludford (LD)
My Lords, does not this damning report from the National Audit Office perfectly make the case for the people to have a people’s vote, to have a final say on what happens next to this country? There is a myth that the Prime Minister stopped talking about no deal being better than a bad deal, but she repeated it just four weeks ago. In the light of that, it is highly irresponsible—I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for her Question—to be in this state of unpreparedness when the Government say that they are determined, come what may, that we either exit with a deal or have no deal.
Is it true that the Government have been advised that ferries will have to be requisitioned because the capacity at Dover will be 15% to 25% more than normal for six months after no deal? Where will the Government find those ferries? Where will they find the alternative port capacity? What are people who depend on life-saving drugs going to do in the meantime?
Lord Callanan
As the noble Baroness is aware, we have already had the a people’s vote and the people voted to leave, but we will be exploring this subject extensively in the next few hours in response to the Motion tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell. As I said, we remain confident of reaching an agreement with the EU, but it is only sensible for government and industry to prepare for a range of scenarios. We continue to work closely with a range of partners on the appropriate contingency plans to ensure that trade can continue to move as freely as possible between the UK and Europe in the event of no deal—which, I repeat, is not an outcome that we wish.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)
Has my noble friend noted the statement this week by President Macron of France in which he said that although no deal was undesirable, no deal should not be a cause for panic? He specifically said that ferries would operate, trains would continue to run through the tunnel, planes would continue to serve as normal and business would go on.
Lord Callanan
My noble friend makes a very good point. We know that the French National Assembly and the French Government are putting in place preparations for no deal, as are many European countries. That is the responsible thing to do, and I am really not sure why the Opposition think it is such a bad thing to put in place sensible contingency plans.
Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)
My Lords, the NAO report states that the border systems cannot be ready in time for a no deal. Is the Minister saying that the NAO report is wrong?
Lord Callanan
We are putting in place the responses necessary in case of no deal. We have decided to prioritise safety and security, the flow of people and goods and then compliance activity, including the collection of revenue in the short term. Contingency plans are being prepared with the aim of managing all the potential issues, such as queues of traffic in Kent and continuing supplies of essential goods and medicines.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
Is not the reality that with up to 500 box trailers per hour going through Dover alone—2.5 million last year—port clearance at Dover is now utterly impossible in the event that we proceed? The only answer now is inland or destination clearance. Are we actually ready for that? To avoid fraud, all inland clearance transportation would have to be customs sealed, as under the old TIR system, while travelling to destinations within the United Kingdom. Have the Government thought through the implications of that, because that is what will have to happen if we are to avoid fraud?
Lord Callanan
We are looking at all of the potential implications. We are discussing with partners such as ports and ferry operators all the potential implications of no deal. We continue to negotiate to get a deal—that is what we want—but we are putting in place the appropriate contingency plans, operations and processes in case of no deal, as are other European countries, because that is the responsible thing to do.
Lord Wigley (PC)
My Lords, if the NAO’s warnings are correct, is it not crass stupidity for the Government not to contemplate putting back the Article 50 day by enough time to accommodate the necessary provisions if we indeed crash out without a deal?
Lord Callanan
As the noble Lord is aware, that is not a decision that we can make ourselves. We would have to apply for and obtain the consent of the 27 other member states as set out under Article 50, but that is not something that we are going to do or are contemplating—we are leaving the European Union on 29 March next year.
Lord Lilley (Con)
My Lords, can my noble friend confirm—since I am sure that, like me, he has in fact read the report, unlike many who are going on newspaper reports of the report—that it is about process and does not forecast any of these chaotic outcomes? It accepts that customs will prioritise flow over compliance, that there will not, therefore, be delays and that there will be no change in risks in its assessment, which the report accepts, and therefore no extra checks.
Lord Callanan
My noble friend makes some good points but I repeat the point that it is the responsible thing to do to make the appropriate contingency plans for an outcome that we do not want but which is possible. If noble Lords opposite think that we should make no preparations at all and just accept whatever deal is given to us by the European Union, then I am afraid that I do not agree.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)
My Lords, I am not sure if the Minister was present earlier at Question Time when my noble friend Lord Blunkett asked his Question. We cannot cope at the moment at the border. If noble Lords read this report—the Minister is not prepared to say whether he agrees with it—it indicates that we have severe problems facing us next year. Yes, it is prudent and responsible to take the appropriate action, but should we not be advising the British people that their holidays next year could be severely delayed, that there could be major problems at Dover and that people should be thinking well ahead about whether they should proceed? Have the Government had discussions with the insurance industry about the likely costs arising from delays?
Lord Callanan
I did not hear the response to the earlier Question. This Private Notice Question was tabled at relatively short notice and I was busy preparing, so I apologise that I did not hear the earlier Answer. We are having discussions about the potential outcomes with a range of partners, including the insurance industry, port operators and others, and we have published an extensive range of technical notices to inform businesses, people, citizens and others about travel plans in the event of no deal.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, the lack of preparedness that the report outlines will inevitably lead to delays and some chaos. That will clearly lead to an increase in cross-border crime, smuggling and other aspects of law-breaking. What are the Government doing to deal with that particular aspect of the risks that we face and what have they done to liaise with the people in the county of Kent, which is going to be turned into a lorry park?
Lord Callanan
We are undertaking extensive preparations, including discussions with local authorities and port operators in Kent. It is not true to say that we have not been making preparations. They have been ongoing for the past two years for the relevant legislation that is required, both primary and secondary, in the event of no deal, plus all the appropriate contingency plans and discussions with the various operators.