Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Lords Hansard - part one & Report stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

15: Clause 12, page 13, line 12, after “includes” insert “, in particular—
(i) domestic abuse within the meaning of the Domestic Abuse Act 2021 (see section 1 of that Act),(ii) sexual offences,”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment clarifies that “violence” for the purposes of Chapter 1 of Part 2 includes domestic abuse and sexual offences.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, as I set out in Committee, the Government are absolutely committed to tackling violence against women and girls. In July this year, we published a cross-government Tackling Violence Against Women and Girls strategy, which set out a range of actions to help ensure that more perpetrators are brought to justice and face the full force of the law, that we improve support to victims and survivors, and, ultimately, that we work to prevent these crimes. Our complementary domestic abuse strategy will be published early next year. However, there is always scope to do more. In Committee, I undertook to consider further an amendment tabled by my noble friend Lady Bertin, which sought to expressly provide in the Bill that “violence” for the purposes of the serious violence duty includes domestic abuse, domestic homicide and sexual violence.

I reiterate that the draft statutory guidance for the serious violence duty already makes it clear that specified authorities are able to take into account any form of serious violence that is of particular concern in a local area in their strategies. The guidance specifies that this could include, for example, domestic violence, alcohol-related violence, sexual exploitation, modern slavery or gender-based violence. We have been clear throughout that we believe that specified authorities are best placed to determine what the priorities should be for their area based on the local evidence. However, we agree that there is benefit to making it absolutely clear in the Bill that domestic abuse and sexual offences, perpetrated against adults or children, are included within the meaning of “violence” for the purposes of the serious violence duty. These government amendments do just that. To ensure that clarity, the amendments include definitions of “domestic abuse”, importing that contained in Section 1 of the Domestic Abuse Act 2021, and of “sexual offences”, utilising the list in Schedule 3 to the Sexual Offences Act 2003, subject to certain appropriate modifications.

I commend my noble friend and Nicole Jacobs, the domestic abuse commissioner, for their campaigning on this issue. These amendments are a tribute to their work and I commend them to the House.

[Baroness Bertin (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to welcome this group of government amendments. Making the change to explicitly recognise that domestic abuse and sexual offences are included in the Bill’s definition of violence really matters. It sends the signal loud and clear that these destructive and damaging crimes cannot just be swept under the carpet, ignored or tolerated, and that not tackling them is no longer an option.

The omission in the original legislation risked undermining very real progress and momentum in our fight against these pervasive offences, and the Government deserve real credit for recognising that and making this change. I thank again my noble friend the Minister, who does a huge amount on the Floor of this House but also an awful lot behind the scenes. These amendments may seem very easy to get over the line but they are not, and I know that she did a huge amount behind the scenes to ensure that that happened. I also thank the Home Secretary, because I know that she gets this and that she cares. The continued political leadership in this area from both of them is greatly needed if we are to continue making this kind of progress, so I thank them for that. I echo what my noble friend the Minister said about the domestic abuse commissioner and her dedicated team. If there was a blueprint of how to put together a brilliant team that supports so many important changes that have to be made, hers is that blueprint, and that team deserves huge credit today.

If done properly, this change will make a fundamental difference to how we tackle these crimes; putting prevention front and centre is the only way in which we can hope to be making different speeches in 10 years’ time. These amendments may be simple on the face of it, but the reality on the ground is very complex, and it is vital that the accompanying guidance gives local authorities the best chance of success.

On the guidance more broadly, I want to make a couple of points. I hope that the Home Office will continue to work with the domestic abuse commissioner’s office, as well as sector specialists and violence reduction units, which are already making these changes on violence against women and girls, domestic abuse and sexual offences—notably, in Nottingham and London—to make sure that the detail of best practice is properly communicated and effectively rolled out. One concern that I still have is that the guidance still refers local authorities back to the serious violence strategy, although the strategy still makes no reference to domestic abuse or sexual offences. Therefore, the guidance should be beefed up to help that omission.

The monitoring of the duty will also be vital. I would welcome close scrutiny from the Home Office to understand why any areas did not include these crime types, when we know how prolific they are nationally. I would also welcome greater involvement from the HMICFRS in responding to the new duty and how it is working in relation to these offences.

Briefly and finally, I want to talk about stalking. I absolutely accept the omission of stalking in this amendment, although reluctantly. However, does my noble friend the Minister agree that much more urgency and joined-up thinking needs to be applied to this crime? There is still a huge gap in understanding across the entire criminal justice system, from policing to the judiciary. The ratio of victims to convictions is absolutely wrong. We know that approximately half of stalking-related cases are perpetrated by a current or ex-partner. Could she clarify and confirm that ex-intimate partner-related stalking, such as domestic abuse-related stalking, is implicitly understood and intended to be included in the duty?

Given that the other half of stalking cases are stranger cases, I very much believe that the spirit of this duty should extend to all forms of stalking. It will therefore be essential to ensure that specific and robust instruction on the nature of stalking and the types of interventions needed to tackle it are included in the guidance. In particular, I would welcome an explicit reference to MASIP, a multi-agency approach to managing the risk and reducing reoffending by stalking perpetrators. Not enough local authorities or police forces use that approach, but it does work—I have witnessed it myself in the Met team. It helps front-line officers to understand what they are dealing with. There are experts there, including potentially mental health experts, and it is an important new approach to this crime.

All in all, today is very welcome, and I hope that it gives victims hope and reassures them that their voices are beginning to be heard.

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[Lord Rosser (Lab)]

My Lords, as the Minister said, government Amendment 15 clarifies that violence for the purposes of Part 2, Chapter 1 includes domestic abuse and sexual offences. We very much welcome these government amendments, the object of which has been a key issue for these Benches. It is a hugely important change to the Bill and an example of what can be achieved by this House, and indeed by Parliament as a whole, through proper scrutiny.

I too pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Bertin, and to Nicole Jacobs, the domestic abuse commissioner, for the key roles that they played on this issue. I also pay tribute to my honourable friends Sarah Jones MP and Jess Phillips MP who began a campaign for this change when the Bill arrived in the Commons in March. This has been a cross-party, cross-House effort to ensure that these extremely serious, high-harm types of violence are recognised as such and are prioritised.

It has been mentioned that, although these amendments add domestic abuse and sexual violence to the definition, they do not specifically include stalking. Stalking that involves domestic abuse and sexual offences would be covered by the terms of these government amendments, which provide for the inclusion of violence against women and girls in the definition of serious violence. Of course, that does not include all cases of stalking. I hope and expect that we will hear from the Minister at some stage during the remaining stages of this Bill what the Government are doing to change the way we respond to stalking across the board.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Bertin for her comments. I share entirely my noble friend’s commitment to ensuring that best practice in this area is properly communicated to duty holders. That is what will make it effective. I look forward to working with the domestic abuse commissioner’s office and wider stakeholders to develop the statutory guidance which will be subject to public consultation following Royal Assent. We intend to develop options and include detail on monitoring progress in our statutory guidance. In addition, specified authorities will be requested to keep their strategy under review. PCCs will also have a discretionary power to monitor performance, and routine inspection programmes undertaken by individual inspectorates in future may also consider the organisational response to local serious violence issues.

As my noble friend and others will know, the statutory guidance under Clause 18 already includes references to sexual offences, domestic abuse and gender-based violence. In updating the guidance ahead of the consultation, we will explore whether we should revise it to make it clear to specified authorities that they should consider violence against women and girls, including domestic abuse and sexual offences, in determining what amounts to serious violence in their areas.

In terms of stalking, we are very clear that the reference to domestic abuse to be added by the government amendments will encompass stalking in so far as it takes place in a domestic abuse context. Noble Lords will know that while many stalking offences take place in a domestic abuse context or involve violent behaviour, it is not the case in all instances. We have not expressly set these out in the Bill because we are seeking to avoid an exhaustive list of crime types, partly to allow local areas to take account of new and emerging forms of serious violence as they develop and are identified, and partly to recognise the geographical difference in the prevalence of these types of serious violent crimes.

As I have said, the draft statutory guidance for the duty sets out that there is flexibility for local areas to take account of their evidence-based strategic needs assessment and include in their strategy actions which focus on other related types of serious violence, including gender-based violence, which includes all forms of stalking as well as many other forms of violence against women and girls. We can look to make that clearer in the next iteration of the guidance, which we will be consulting on, as I have said. This is a view shared by the domestic abuse commissioner, and I put on record—following my noble friend’s thanks—my thanks to her for her continued engagement in this area.

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

My noble friend referred to sexual violence against women and girls. Can I clarify that this legislation actually covers all aspects of sexual abuse and stalking, not just that against women and girls?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I am glad my noble friend has mentioned that. We have said right from the outset that it covers both sexes, but this violence is predominantly meted out to women and girls; that is why noble Lords sometimes question this. But, of course, anyone who is a victim of domestic abuse or serious violence is captured by this.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, asked me about the initiatives we have in place. We have tripled the funding we provide to the National Stalking Helpline, run by the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, this year. The additional funding is enabling the trust to answer more calls and expand its advocacy service. I set out in Committee the other actions we are taking to tackle stalking, and I refer the noble Baroness to those comments. Our forthcoming domestic abuse strategy will include stalking as well.

On that note, I hope that I have answered my noble friend’s questions and those of other noble Lords. I conclude by thanking my noble friend and the commissioner, and I beg to move.

Amendment 15 agreed.

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

16: Clause 12, page 13, line 14, at end insert—
“(3A) In subsection (3)(a)(ii), “sexual offence” means an offence under the law of England and Wales which is for the time being specified in Schedule 3 to the Sexual Offences Act 2003, other than the offence specified in paragraph 14 of that Schedule (fraudulent evasion of excise duty).(3B) In determining for the purposes of subsection (3A) whether an offence is specified in Schedule 3 to the Sexual Offences Act 2003, any limitation in that Schedule referring to the circumstances of a particular case (including the sentence imposed) is to be disregarded.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment defines “sexual offence” for the purposes of the amendment in the name of Baroness Williams of Trafford at page 13, line 12 by reference to most of the England and Wales offences for the time being specified in Schedule 3 to the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

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Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

19: Clause 15, page 15, line 41, leave out “a disclosure of information that”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment and the amendments in the name of Baroness Williams of Trafford at page 15, line 41, page 15, line 42 and page 15, line 45 have the effect that Clause 15 does not authorise the disclosure of patient information or the disclosure of personal information by a health or social care authority.

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Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

23: Clause 15, page 15, line 45, at beginning insert “a disclosure of information that”
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for the first amendment in the name of Baroness Williams of Trafford at page 15, line 41.

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Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

26: Clause 16, page 16, line 22, after “that” insert “is held by the person to whom the request is made and that”
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment limits the information that may be requested by a local policing body under Clause 16 to information held by the person to whom the request is made.

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Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

31: Clause 16, page 16, line 39, at beginning insert “a disclosure of information that”
Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for the first amendment in the name of Baroness Williams of Trafford at page 16, line 35.

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16:12

Division 1

Ayes: 83

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Liberal Democrat: 55
Crossbench: 15
Labour: 6
Independent: 3
Green Party: 2
Bishops: 2

Noes: 183

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Conservative: 155
Crossbench: 17
Democratic Unionist Party: 5
Independent: 4
Ulster Unionist Party: 2

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Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

36: Clause 18, page 17, line 37, at end insert—
“(4) After issuing guidance under this section, the Secretary of State must lay a copy of the guidance before Parliament.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires guidance from the Secretary of State relating to Chapter 1 of Part 2 to be laid before Parliament.

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Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

37: Clause 19, page 19, line 7, after “includes” insert “, in particular—
(i) domestic abuse within the meaning of the Domestic Abuse Act 2021 (see section 1 of that Act),(ii) sexual offences,”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment clarifies that “violence” for the purposes of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 includes domestic abuse and sexual offences.

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Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

40: Page 20, line 32, at end insert—

health or social care authority

section 9(9)”

Member’s explanatory statementThis amendment is consequential on the amendment in the name of Baroness Williams of Trafford at page 12, line 11.

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Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

42: Clause 31, page 27, line 7, at end insert—
“(3) After issuing guidance under this section, the Secretary of State must lay a copy of the guidance before Parliament.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires guidance from the Secretary of State relating to Chapter 2 of Part 2 to be laid before Parliament.

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[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, if I may just say a few words in support of this amendment, which was moved with such clarity by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, two points seem to me to arise. The first is that if the reviews are held in a centralised way, they will be more efficient. There will be less of a postcode lottery when it comes to the review taking place. Secondly, and most importantly, if social services, medical services, the police and others know that there will be a review in every case in which there is murder as a result of a domestic situation, they will take greater care. We know that that has not, unfortunately, always been the case, whatever their good intentions.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for outlining this amendment with such clarity. Domestic homicide is a horrendous crime and I reassure the House that tackling this is a key priority for the Government. Part of the solution is ensuring that domestic homicide reviews take place at every opportunity. They offer an opportunity, as the noble Lord said, to learn lessons to prevent the same mistakes occurring again. It is important that every domestic homicide is considered for a domestic homicide review so that, as he said, lessons can be learned and further deaths prevented.

I reassure the noble Lord that domestic homicide reviews are conducted in the great majority of cases, but there may be instances where one is not appropriate or necessary. The Government are clear that domestic homicide reviews should be considered at every opportunity, and the 2004 Act already makes provision for the Home Secretary to direct that a domestic homicide review takes place where required.

When a community safety partnership decides not to conduct a review, the decision is closely scrutinised and escalated to the Home Secretary to enable her to use her powers to direct a domestic homicide review, if appropriate. This involves a review of the decision by the independent quality assurance panel, whose views form the basis of the advice provided to the Secretary of State. The review of all decisions not to conduct a review is a new process implemented earlier this year. Since implementing it, the Secretary of State has directed four homicide reviews. I hope the noble Lord sees this as an example of how seriously this Government take these reviews.

On data collection, I reiterate to noble Lords that the Home Office has in fact committed to creating an online central repository of domestic homicide reviews to improve accessibility, exactly for the reason the noble Lords, Lord Carlile and Lord Ponsonby, pointed out. At present, all reports are published on individual local authority or community safety partnership websites, but often only for a limited period. Creating the central repository will mean that all completed reviews are readily available, including to support the monitoring of the implementation of any recommendations. This is expected to go live next year. I understand that the terms of reference of the review have been published.

Regarding the letter the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, cited at the beginning of his remarks, I will do some investigating and come back to him, because I really do not know what has happened to it. That is unfortunate, but I will chase it up and ensure he has a response. With that, I hope he will be happy to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab)]

My Lords, I will of course withdraw the amendment, which was essentially intended to nudge the noble Baroness. I thought the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, made a very reasonable point when he highlighted the postcode lottery if there is not a review of all cases. He also said—I thought very persuasively—that services will take greater care if they know there will be a review. Perhaps I could ask for an additional, interesting piece of information to be included in the letter: how many domestic homicides have there been in a recent period where there has not been a review? I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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The final point made in the introduction by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, was an intriguing suggestion: that the person handing over the data should be able to see what is being downloaded. I presume he means that, as more and more of our data is stored not on our phones but on the cloud, you can actually see people accessing your data, if you give them permission, as they are taking it. This is indeed a novel suggestion—I had not thought of it—and it is true that we are all being encouraged to store more and more of our data on the cloud, rather than on devices themselves. I look forward to the noble Baroness’s response.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I agree that this has been a very thoughtful debate. I hope that, at the end of this, the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, will not find me guilty of “Baroness-splaining”. This is such an important issue. As the right reverend Prelate pointed out, for young people, their mobile phones are their life and contain things that certainly their parents should not see, nor others either.

In Committee, I gave assurance that the Government were considering very carefully the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee recommendation to the effect that provisions regarding the extraction of confidential information from electronic devices should be set out in the Bill rather than left to regulations, as Clause 42 currently provides. In our response to the DPRRC, which we sent to the committee last week, we confirmed that we accept the recommendation. Amendments 47, 49 and 52 to 55 make the necessary changes to Chapter 3 of Part 2 of the Bill to include provisions dealing with this issue.

These amendments are designed to ensure that additional safeguards will apply where an electronic device may contain confidential information, because authorised persons will be required to go through a separate assessment of the appropriateness of using the power where there is a risk that confidential information may be held on a device. To answer the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, confidential information for these purposes includes legally privileged, journalistic and other types of protected materials, but I think that is what she suspected.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, asked whether information extracted from a mobile phone would be disclosed to the defence. These provisions do not alter disclosure rules, which will continue to apply as now.

The amendments place an obligation on authorised persons to make a risk assessment, based on information that they have available, to decide how likely it is that they will come across confidential information on the device that they wish to examine. Having done so, they must turn their mind to the potential volume of confidential information held on the device and its potential relevance to the purposes set out in Clauses 36(2) and 40(2), for which the power can be used, in order to come to a view as to whether it is proportionate to use the power. This is intended to ensure particular consideration is given to the potential handling of inherently sensitive information. This will be reinforced by best practice guidance, to be set out in the code of practice under Clause 41. Authorised persons will be required to have regard to the code in exercising the powers under this chapter. We consider that this approach provides that balance between enabling extraction to go ahead in appropriate cases and safeguarding against improper access to confidential material.

Turning to the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, the House will recall that substantial changes were made to these provisions in Committee to further strengthen the safeguards for device users. These changes have been warmly welcomed by the Victims’ Commissioner. We believe, and I think noble Lords alluded to this, that any further issues can and should be addressed through the code of practice—more on that later—which will provide authorised people with detailed guidance on the lawful use of these powers.

Amendments 43 and 44 would afford a device user the option of observing the extraction taking place, unless that is impracticable or inappropriate. I can see the appeal of that, but different authorised people will have different tools available to them to carry out extraction, and these may be held in parts of a police station or law enforcement premises where only members of staff can be present. It could also be held in third-party laboratories which are not equipped to host members of the public. We think that these restrictions will make this obligation impractical in many cases, and we do not think that an obligation to allow a device user to observe this process is workable.

Amendment 44 would also place a legal limit on the length of time that an authorised person can keep a device in their possession. Authorised persons already keep all devices for the minimum amount of time necessary, but the precise length of time is determined by a number of factors, and the officer to whom the individual gives their device gives an indication of how long this period will be. If for any reason this length of time changes, individuals are kept informed. I have highlighted in my notes that the rape review action plan makes clear our ambition to ensure that no victim is left without a phone for more than 24 hours.

Amendment 45 returns to a debate that we had in Committee about whether the necessity test in subsection (5)(c) of Clause 36 should use the language of “strict necessity”, as in the Data Protection Act, in these clauses. As I have said previously, the powers in Clauses 36 and 40 must be read alongside existing obligations under the Data Protection Act or, indeed, the UK GDPR. Looking at the requirements in more detail, Part 3 of the DPA 2018 contains specific provisions relating to processing personal data for a law enforcement purpose. The “law enforcement purposes” are defined, in Section 31 of that Act, as

“the prevention, investigation, detection or prosecution of criminal offences or the execution of criminal penalties, including the safeguarding against and the prevention of threats to public security.”

To process personal data lawfully under Part 3 of the Data Protection Act, it must either be with the consent of the data subject or strictly necessary for a law enforcement purpose. In the case of the latter, one of the conditions in Schedule 8 to the Act must also be met. For example, the processing must be necessary for the protection of someone’s vital interests or necessary for the safeguarding of children or individuals at risk. The draft code of practice makes clear that “strict necessity” is the standard that must be met when exercising these powers for a law enforcement purpose and that “consent” is not an appropriate lawful basis.

The UK GDPR provides the regime that must be complied with for all other data processing; that is to say, processing for a purpose other than a law enforcement purpose. The regime is likely to apply where the powers are being used for the purpose of locating a missing person, protecting a child or an at-risk adult from neglect or physical, mental or emotional harm, or the investigation of death where there is no suspicion of criminal activity. It is not therefore appropriate to set one standard of data processing in these clauses where these different regimes apply. As I have previously indicated, the obligations under the DPA and the UK GDPR continue to apply, and we think that the code of practice is the appropriate tool to communicate these responsibilities to authorised persons.

Amendment 46 would remove the provision that allows for authorised persons to use these powers where other means of obtaining the information exist but it is not reasonably practical to use them. It is necessary that this provision remains, as there may be instances where alternative means are available, but they require excessive resource—for example, either time or costs. The draft code of practice makes clear that the authorised person must assess whether other means available would be unreasonable in the circumstances and that delay alone is not sufficient justification not to pursue an alternative method unless there is a real and immediate risk of harm.

Amendment 48 would create a formal process for an individual to request a review from a senior officer of the necessity and proportionality of using the powers. We agree that all individuals must be given all relevant details about any requests for personal information and have included the obligation to share these details in writing. The data processing notice used by the police includes details of how to challenge a request, but, in all cases, individuals should be asked to volunteer their device and agree to the extraction of information from it only as a last resort, and requests must be necessary and proportionate.

As part of the rape review action plan, Thames Valley Police has begun a pilot to introduce the ability for victims in rape cases to request a review when the police make a request for personal information during the investigation stage. This is not confined to requests for digital evidence. We will continue to engage with interest with colleagues in the NPCC and Ministry of Justice who are working with Thames Valley Police. Following the pilot, if appropriate, we can address this issue further in revisions to the code of practice.

Amendment 50 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, would ensure that the matters set out in subsection (3) of Clause 38 are explained to a device user orally as well as in writing. The clause requires notice to be given in writing to ensure that this information is formally recorded and can be referred to at a later stage of an investigation or inquiry if needed. We think that the code of practice is the best place to provide that additional guidance to authorised persons on how best to communicate this information to an individual before they agree to the extraction of information.

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Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

47: Clause 36, page 30, line 13, at end insert—
“(7A) Subsection (7B) applies if the authorised person thinks that, in exercising the power in subsection (1), there is a risk of obtaining confidential information.(7B) The authorised person must, to be satisfied that the exercise of the power is proportionate— (a) have regard to the matters in subsection (7C), and(b) be satisfied that—(i) there are no other means of obtaining the information sought by the authorised person which avoid that risk, or(ii) there are such other means, but it is not reasonably practicable to use them.(7C) The matters referred to in subsection (7B)(a) are—(a) the amount of confidential information likely to be stored on the device, and(b) the potential relevance of the confidential information to—(i) a purpose within subsection (2) for which the authorised person may exercise the power, or(ii) a purpose within subsection (2) of section 40 for which the authorised person may exercise the power in subsection (1) of that section.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would, in circumstances where an electronic device may contain confidential information, require an authorised person to carry out the additional steps in new subsection (7B) of Clause 36 in order to be satisfied that the exercise of the power in clause 36(1) to extract information from the device is proportionate.

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Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

49: Clause 36, page 30, line 24, at end insert—
““confidential information” has the meaning given by section 42;”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendment in the name of Baroness Williams of Trafford at page 30, line 13.

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Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

52: Clause 40, page 35, line 17, at end insert—
“(6A) Subsection (6B) applies if the authorised person thinks that, in exercising the power in subsection (1), there is a risk of obtaining confidential information. (6B) The authorised person must, to be satisfied that the exercise of the power is proportionate—(a) have regard to the matters in subsection (6C), and(b) be satisfied that—(i) there are no other means of obtaining the information sought by the authorised person which avoid that risk, or(ii) there are such other means, but it is not reasonably practicable to use them.(6C) The matters referred to in subsection (6B)(a) are—(a) the amount of confidential information likely to be stored on the device, and (b) the potential relevance of the confidential information to a purpose within subsection (2) or section 36(2).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would, in circumstances where an electronic device may contain confidential information, require an authorised person to carry out the additional steps in new subsection (6B) of Clause 40 in order to be satisfied that the exercise of the power in Clause 40(1) to extract information from the device is proportionate.

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Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

53: Clause 42, page 36, line 16, leave out subsection (1)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the amendments in the name of Baroness Williams of Trafford at page 30, line 13 and page 35, line 17. It omits provision requiring the Secretary of State to make regulations about the exercise of the powers under Clauses 36 and 40 (extraction of information) in relation to confidential information.

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[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, I waited because I wanted to hear which amendments our Front-Bench speakers were supporting. I made my views clear in our previous debate on this issue. I was a member of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Gypsies, Travellers and Roma and I no longer am, because in my view the behaviour of some Travellers—I stress “some Travellers”—was not being publicly condemned. I used the phrase “the 2R formula”: I will absolutely continue to defend the rights of Travellers, but along with those rights, in our society, there also comes the responsibility to behave in a reasonable way.

I congratulate my noble friend Lady Whitaker on her amendment, because at least there is an acknowledgement in it that there are problems with behaviour, and we should recognise that. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for his contribution about adopting a proportionate response to this. This is not about dehumanising Gypsies, Roma and Travellers; it is not about taking us back to Auschwitz, and I say that as a non-practising Jew, so I hope my contribution will be taken in this light. There are, unfortunately, real examples of some Travellers behaving in ways that are totally unacceptable. Some, unfortunately, have been associated with modern slavery. These are cases that have been proven. Others seem to think that it is perfectly reasonable to go around collecting building waste, or other waste, and saying it will be disposed of properly when it will not—it will be dumped. We had this on our own village green.

When somebody says that people are opposed to Travellers, they mean that they are opposed to the unreasonable behaviour of some Travellers. That is what causes a lot of it. Of course there are examples of people who are prejudiced, but we should not generalise on this issue. I have some sympathy for my noble friend Lady Whitaker’s amendment and that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, who has genuinely tried to find a way forward on this.

I thank the Minister; we had a useful meeting, and I suggested to her that one thing that could be done is to set up local liaison committees—they may exist already—which would involve representatives of Travellers, residents and local authorities. I have not tried to define specifically what they would be but there certainly needs to be more contact and communication between the groups. It would be useful if the Minister could give some examples of what she considers best practice around the country; I believe some examples have been usefully quoted.

A minority of Travellers behave in ways that are unacceptable to communities. If that behaviour could be stopped or condemned, I think there would be a totally different attitude within communities. It is about proportion, about getting the balance right. Have the Government got it absolutely right? I am not sure—I am waiting to hear the Minister’s response—but polarising the debate in this House as some have done by saying that it is all based on people’s innate prejudice and discrimination against Travellers does not help.

There is a genuine problem, and it may be that the Government’s solution is not absolutely right. I was interested in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick; I might have known that he would put his legal finger on it when he asked whether, if someone was behaving reasonably and gave an excuse that there was no other stopping place, that would be considered a reasonable response in the circumstances.

I look forward to the Minister’s reply. I hope my noble friends will recognise that although I have not entered this debate with the most popular view, I have tried to show that I do not discriminate against Gypsies, Roma and Travellers—far from it. I continue to want to support their rights, but on the basis that they recognise that they too have responsibilities.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in what has been quite a wide-ranging debate on Part 4 of the Bill. Part 4 delivers on a clear manifesto commitment to tackle the harms caused by unauthorised encampments. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for his comments, and agree that equating the measures in this Bill with the atrocities committed in Nazi Germany is, quite frankly, disgraceful. I will not take an intervention until I have finished my point. Any noble Lord who thinks that I would stand at this Dispatch Box and promote anything that had even a sniff of that is quite wrong. I give way to the noble Lord.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

I thank the Minister. I hope she will read Hansard carefully in the morning. She will see that I did not equate this Bill with what happened in that period. I said that, when prejudice is inflamed, it can morph into terrible things; historically, we know that to be true. That is all that I said—I did not say that that is what the Government are doing. I do not like what the Government are doing in Part 4. I support the amendment, and I gave very good reasons for that.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, it is interesting that the noble Lord thinks that I was referring to him. I said that the comments of noble Lords who equated this with the atrocities of Nazi Germany were, quite frankly, disgraceful. I did not name him. It is interesting that he thinks it might have been him to whom I was referring.

We have brought forward the measures in Part 4 because we understand the challenges that many locations across the country face when individuals cause significant damage, disruption or distress to communities, businesses and landowners. It is important to remember why we are introducing a new offence: to tackle individuals who cause significant harm. This could include unauthorised encampments within urban areas set up in local parks, car parks or on local sports fields. It could include fly-camping which is a huge problem within national parks and our natural beauty spots, where people park cars, campervans or motorhomes on land without permission and damage the land.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

I thank the noble Baroness for answering my earlier question. As I understood her answer, it was that there can be no reasonable excuse for causing significant damage or significant disruption. I point out to her that the defence under new subsection (6) is that the defendant would have a defence if they have

“a reasonable excuse for … failing to comply as soon as reasonably practicable with the request”

to leave. It has nothing to do with whether they have caused disruption, distress or damage; they have an absolute defence if there is a reasonable excuse for not leaving the land when asked to do so. That is why I put to her that, surely, it could be a reasonable excuse that there is nowhere else they can go. Would she like to reflect on that?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

As the noble Lord probably knows, that will be a determination for the courts to make.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

I am simply anxious that the matter is not left on the basis that the Minister put it, because I respectfully suggest that that is not right.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

Perhaps we could discuss this further if that is amenable to the noble Lord, but I accept his point that it is not right to just leave it like that. In determining what is a reasonable excuse, it would be for the police and the courts to determine whether the excuse was reasonable.

--- Later in debate ---

19:04

Division 2

Ayes: 171

---

Labour: 83
Liberal Democrat: 60
Crossbench: 16
Independent: 8
Green Party: 2
Conservative: 1
Bishops: 1

Noes: 171

---

Conservative: 150
Crossbench: 11
Democratic Unionist Party: 5
Independent: 4
Ulster Unionist Party: 1

--- Later in debate ---

19:20

Division 3

Ayes: 71

---

Liberal Democrat: 54
Labour: 9
Crossbench: 4
Green Party: 2
Bishops: 1
Independent: 1

Noes: 167

---

Conservative: 143
Crossbench: 15
Independent: 5
Democratic Unionist Party: 3
Ulster Unionist Party: 1

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

56: Clause 65, page 64, line 43, at end insert—
“(6) The Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a copy of any guidance or revised guidance published under subsection (5).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment requires the Secretary of State to lay any guidance published under the section before Parliament.