(2 days, 17 hours ago)
Lords ChamberRead Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, the Government’s own cybersecurity experts, Innovate UK, have warned about the threat to the city of London from the embassy. Even the Government of the United States and the Dutch Parliament have raised concerns about the presence of sensitive telecommunications infrastructure, especially cables, beneath the Royal Mint Court. Given the well-documented history of cyber-related and infrastructure-related intrusions linked to the Chinese state, does the Minister agree that planning permission should never have been granted to a Chinese embassy, for many reasons, including that the Royal Mint Court is adjacent to the Wapping Telephone Exchange, and it carries highly sensitive information?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Baroness Taylor of Stevenage) (Lab)
My Lords, before I answer the specific question from the noble Baroness, may I update the House? The inspector’s report was received on 10 June by the department. Parties have been notified a decision will be made on or before 9 September 2025. As the report has just been received, we have not yet begun to assess the case. The inspector’s report will form part of the final decision and will be released alongside it. Until that point, neither the recommendation nor the report will be made public. I hope that update is helpful to noble Lords.
Turning to the noble Baroness’s question, because we now have the report and we will be considering it, it would not be helpful to comment on any specific security issue raised in the application while it is under active consideration by the department. However, all decisions that come before Ministers are subject to examination by an independent planning inspector, usually through a public inquiry. The planning inspector then provides an evidence-based recommendation, setting out full reasons for that recommendation. The inspector’s report considers the application against published local, regional and national policy, which is likely to include a wide variety of material planning matters that may include safety and national security.
On the specific issue of cybersecurity, as I have said, no decision has been made on the case. Ministers will come to a decision based on the material planning considerations I have referred to, in line with the established process that these cases follow.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)
That update from the Minister is most helpful.
We know from public warnings from the director-general of MI5 that China has been operating on an “epic scale” in its attempts to obtain political influence in the United Kingdom through educational arrangements and the use of state funds. That is why these Benches are disappointed that the Conservative Opposition have agreed this week with the Government to exempt China from the foreign influence registration scheme in respect of educational arrangements and the use of sovereign wealth funds.
We also know that, through its embassy in the UK, China has been co-ordinating transnational repression of people who are carrying out normal activities in the UK but who have bounties on their head. I shall not ask the Minister about any technical planning or security considerations, but what statutory provision can there be in the embassy to prevent foreign influence from the Chinese embassy on our political processes, and to help prohibit transnational repression of those living in this country?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
National security is, of course, the first duty of government more generally. On the specifics of the case, the inspector’s report will consider the application against all the national, local and regional issues, according to planning policy. Safety and national security will be taken into consideration to make sure that we have considered fully all the issues that may relate to this planning application.
It is difficult to answer general questions about the relationship with China in the same space as a planning decision, which has to be taken according to a fixed process. But noble Lords should be assured that we very strongly consider national security to be our first duty.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, it is hard to imagine that, if in 1980 the former Soviet Union had asked for a prime site for a new mega-embassy, we in Parliament would have agreed. It is even harder for me to understand why we are doing this for a regime accused by the House of Commons of genocide against Uyghur Muslims in Xinjiang, one which has incarcerated over a thousand pro-democracy activists in Hong Kong, including a British national Jimmy Lai, sanctions parliamentarians of both Houses—including me—and, as the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, has just said, places bounties on heads of activists, including a bounty of 1 million Hong Kong dollars on the head of a young girl, Chloe Cheung, who lives in the United Kingdom. Why, in comparison with what we would have done in 1980, are we doing this now?
In the Commons, the Minister there said that the Government is open to further representations. To whom should they be made? How will they be considered? Given that the conditions set by the Government around the consolidation of Chinese consulate premises and access to the Cistercian abbey ruins on the site have both been rejected by the Chinese, how do the Government intend to address the rejection of those conditions?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
The noble Lord raises a number of points and I have heard him speak many times on these issues to my colleagues from the FCDO. The Government stand firm on human rights, including against China’s repression of the people of Xinjiang and Tibet. Members of the Government have raised human rights with President Xi and members of the Chinese Government. We continue to co-ordinate efforts with our international partners to hold China to account.
On the issue of Jimmy Lai, I know this question has been answered before in your Lordships’ House, but we continue to call on the Hong Kong authorities to end their politically motivated prosecution and release Jimmy Lai. The Prime Minister raised his case with President Xi at the G20, and the Foreign Secretary raised it most recently with Foreign Minister Wang Yi in April. The Prime Minister is following Jimmy Lai’s trial closely, and the Minister for the Indo-Pacific remains in regular contact with Mr Lai’s son and last met him on 28 April.
In relation to the noble Lord’s question, which I believe was about representations, representations can be made in the normal way to the Secretary of State or the planning casework unit in MHCLG. All material planning considerations will be taken into account in determining the case. If any noble Lords wish to do so, they should be directed to the Secretary of State or the planning casework team.
Lord Spellar (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister has rightly outlined some of the concerns regarding the Chinese Communist regime and the way that it treats its nationals, let alone its international activities. However, international relations between states have never implied approval of those states, or indeed of their domestic regimes. They are about relations between states and that implies embassies as well. The fact is that big states have big embassies—for example, look at the US embassy south of the river. China is a big state; that is a fact. Can we dial down the rhetoric a bit?
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
I am not sure that was really a question, but I say to the noble Lord that the Government take a consistent long-term and strategic approach to managing the United Kingdom’s relations with China, which are firmly rooted in our national interest.
Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I had not intended to make any points on this, as I tread with care regarding accusations levelled at all Members of Parliament and community leaders who support people of Chinese heritage with whom many of us have long-standing relationships. However, following my noble friend’s question, the fallout from some of our high rhetoric and tension has an impact on the community outside. In my local area, I live alongside a large community of Hong Kong Chinese and I have had associations for 50 years with the Chinese community in Tower Hamlets and Newham, who have contributed hugely to the whole community. Will the Minister agree that, whatever the relationship is Government to Government, we must not make the communities the fifth column? I say this as someone who is Muslim and has experienced in the community the reverberations of the rhetoric in public discourse. Does the Minister agree that we need to make sure that we are extremely cautious in any condemnation of states and consider the fallout that may be experienced by the local communities?
Noble Lords
Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)
It is important to reiterate that this is a planning issue and will be considered on planning grounds. However, the noble Baroness raised concerns about the Hong Kong community. In January, the Foreign Secretary and Minister West met those who were recently targeted with arrest warrants and bounties by the Hong Kong police and, in June, the Security Minister and Minister West met those recently targeted by Hong Kong police with arrest warrants. The Government will continue to stand with and support members of the Hong Kong community who have relocated to the UK, as Labour pledged to do in our manifesto. Freedom of speech and other fundamental rights of all people in the UK are protected under domestic law, regardless of nationality. The UK Government will not tolerate any attempts by foreign Governments to coerce, intimidate, harass or harm their critics overseas, especially in the United Kingdom.
I reiterate that this is a planning matter and the issues will be considered by planning Ministers against the criteria, including national security and other security issues. A decision will be taken on or by 9 September.