Lord Bellingham
To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to monitor and control hate speech at music festivals.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)
My Lords, the Prime Minister has been very clear that there is no excuse for hate speech. Performers making threats or inciting violence should not be given a platform at any event. The Culture Secretary has confirmed that she will be having conversations with the BBC and festival organisers to ensure that action is taken to prevent this happening again. There is also robust legislation in place to deal with threatening, abusive, harassing behaviour and incitement to hatred. The Government will support the police in taking strong action against these abhorrent crimes wherever they occur.
Lord Bellingham (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Does he agree that, when it was obvious that the law was being broken by these artists, the BBC should have immediately stopped the live feed? Does he agree that very senior people in the BBC must now take personal responsibility for this? I appreciate that the matter is actually being investigated by the local police, but surely if artists such as Pascal Robinson-Foster, who incited this dreadful violence, murder and hatred by chanting “Death to the IDF”, do not face the same consequences and treatment as Lucy Connolly, every fair-minded person in this country will conclude that we do indeed have two-tier justice.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
First, let me just say to the noble Lord that my right honourable friend the Culture Secretary is in urgent conversation with the BBC and has requested urgent clarification on what action was taken and why it was not taken in the way in which the noble Lord has mentioned. If he will allow me, I will leave that at that.
With regard to prosecutions, he will know that Avon and Somerset police are investigating these allegations. I think it is clear to see that the evidence is there and that those comments were made, but I do not think it is appropriate for a Minister to give a running commentary on police action. I also say to him that I do not accept the challenge of two-tier policing. I think the police have a responsibility to act on the legislation that has been put in place by both Houses of Parliament and which is very clear on harassment, on incitement to hatred and on the type of incidents that have occurred, which are potentially, in any of those circumstances, criminal actions. The police have to follow the evidence, and that is what I believe they will do in this case and what they did in the case of the lady that the noble Lord mentioned, who was sentenced following a police investigation.
Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a former BBC producer. In light of the events at Glastonbury last weekend, the BBC has put out a statement saying that
“we will look at our guidance around live events so that we can be sure teams are clear on when it is acceptable to keep output on air”.
Would the Minister encourage a longer delay when the BBC is live streaming to allow time to stop unacceptable behaviour being broadcast?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I think that that is an eminently sensible suggestion. The BBC is independent of government. My right honourable friend the Culture Secretary has spoken and will continue to speak to the BBC. There needs to be a revision of the guidance and a review of what has happened in this incident, but I think that it is a sensible and obvious suggestion.
Lord McNally (LD)
My Lords, I draw the Minister’s attention, and indeed that of the noble Lord, Lord Bellingham, to the article by Hugo Rifkind in the Times yesterday. Hugo Rifkind actually spent five days at Glastonbury and, right at the end of the article, he points out that he is a Jew. But he points out that Glastonbury was not a hate fest; it was an amazing broadcasting achievement by a public service broadcaster to cover one of the most successful popular music events in the world. We should not simply be going after the director-general’s head. I remind the Front Bench opposite that one of the most disastrous decisions of the Blair Government was to instigate the loss of Greg Dyke as director-general of the BBC over the dodgy dossier. It is very easy for the pack to go after the director-general, but the important issue here, as has just been said, is how we get the benefit of live broadcasting without the perils of second-rate artists causing trouble to get the headlines.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I say to the noble Lord that Glastonbury is a splendid, multicultural festival, celebrating the best in British and international music, and is a showcase. He will know that the organisers of Glastonbury and Emily Eavis, who is now the main organiser, on behalf of her father who founded the festival, have also issued a statement condemning the comments that were made by the individual and are now being investigated by Avon and Somerset Police. So, we can have a good festival, but we can still have within it an appalling potential act which needs to be investigated. I still think, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Culture still thinks, that it is important that we ask serious questions of the BBC about how it managed that incident when it was clear that it would potentially lead to the type of incident that the noble Lord, Lord Bellingham, has raised in the House today.
Baroness Berger (Lab)
My Lords, here we have an artist who gleefully spouted hate speech and incited violence, the largest festival organiser in the country who gave him a platform and a public service broadcaster that has yet again showed scant regard for the Jewish community, which has totally lost trust in the BBC. Does my noble friend the Minister have confidence in the senior leadership of the BBC to properly grip this issue, to implement material changes and to make sure that this does not happen again?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
My noble friend goes right to the heart of the Question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bellingham. Individuals from any community, in this case the Jewish community, have the right to enjoy their lives without intimidation, threat or harassment, or indeed calls for death to be implemented on sections of a community. There is a role for peaceful protest and for argument about who and what happens in the Palestine-Israeli situation; that is perfectly legitimate. It is not legitimate to move that into harassment, intimidation or death threats.
With regard to the BBC, as I have mentioned, my right honourable friend is in active negotiation and discussion with the chair of the BBC. I am sure she will make further statements. Indeed, this very morning at DCMS Questions in the House of Commons, she answered further questions on this. There are certainly lessons to be learned, but I reassure my noble friend that members of the Jewish community, and indeed members of any community who face harassment and intimidation, deserve the support of the law, which is why Avon and Somerset Police are currently investigating to see whether that criminal threshold has been crossed.
Lord Davies of Gower (Con)
My Lords, the Hamas attacks of 7 October targeted innocent people attending a music festival, so it was horrifying to see the events at Glastonbury. Yesterday, during a protest in Whitehall, protesters were repeating the very same chant used by those performers at Glastonbury and currently under investigation by police. Can the Minister confirm that the Government share the view that this calling for the death of Israeli soldiers is incitement to violence, and can he confirm that, in the interest of applying the law equally, leading on from the point made by my noble friend Lord Bellingham, the same action will be taken against those who incite violence on our streets, not just those who do so from a stage?
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
I hope that I can again reassure the noble Lord. Legislation is in place, and his Government previously and this Government now want to see that legislation implemented when the police judge that criminal thresholds have been crossed. It is not for Ministers to determine whether a criminal threshold has been crossed; it is for the police to present a case to the Crown Prosecution Service, for the Crown Prosecution Service to put that to the courts and for a jury to convict or otherwise on the basis of evidence supplied. But I am supportive of his general aim. It is important that harassment, intimidation, threats and calls for death are seen as the serious criminal events that they potentially are. Therefore, it is right and proper that in this case Avon and Somerset Police follow that through, and it is right and proper that in any event, be it at a music festival, a football ground, a street protest or anything else, people have the right to protest but not the right to threaten, harass, intimidate or call for death.
Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)
I suggest to the Minister that it would be a sensible, practical measure for he and Ministers at DCMS to get together to produce a bespoke website aimed at festival organisers, performers and audiences, so that they understand what hate crimes are, what is and is not acceptable, and what will be the consequences if they choose to break criminal laws that have been created by all Governments in the last 15 years.
Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)
That is a helpful suggestion. The noble Lord will know that this is a fluid discussion both with the BBC and internally within DCMS and the Home Office. I am repeating myself, but I reiterate that it is for the police to determine criminal action, but it is certainly for the Government, be it DCMS, the Home Office, jointly or both, in conjunction with other agencies, such as the BBC, to make sure that there is wide dissemination and understanding of where that criminal line is drawn. I am grateful for the noble Lord’s suggestion, which I will reflect on outside the Chamber today.