The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Coaker) (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, for those last remarks that she made.
I thank everyone who has contributed to the debate today. I thank particularly the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Goldie and Lady Smith, for their Front-Bench contributions, and my noble friend Lady Chapman for her opening remarks. This is a huge discussion. I will not answer every question that has been posed to me. However, given the importance of the debate, and given the times in which we live, it would be remiss of me not to ask my officials, with Foreign Office officials, to go through the debate and write to everyone who has contributed, to make sure that we respond to everything in full. We will place a copy of that in the Library. I make that commitment to everyone because it is an important thing for us to do.
I join the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, in something I know we all share in: paying tribute to our Armed Forces, their personnel and their families, including those who have served in the past—our veterans. It is important to do that and to continue to do so, and I am very pleased to do it. We should also reflect on the recent tragic accident resulting in the death of Lance Bombardier Ciara Sullivan of The King’s Troop Royal Horse Artillery in Windsor. We remember her and her family and friends.
We come together at a really difficult time. I say that because, as I often say, there are differences between us and there will be debates both within and across the Chamber about some of the issues that we are confronting today, but the important thing that should come out of this—this is the important point that I make time and again, because our deliberations are read and looked at by our adversaries—is that there is nothing disunited about this Parliament, whether in this place or the other place, in our determination to stand up for our country and the values that we uphold and to work with our friends, partners and allies across Europe, and indeed the world, to fulfil those. That is an important point that we need to continue to make, because, as I say, and as others across this Chamber will know from their own experiences, what happens in this Parliament is repeated back to us. We appreciate the democracy in which we live, and it is important that free and frank debate should not in any way be construed as weakness on our part in the pursuit of that.
I turn to answering particular points, which the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, will be delighted about. It took 40 seconds for the noble Lord to get to the subject of Chagos—I should have had a sweepstake on it. He is quite right to ask those questions. I said I would find out a couple of things for him, and I will read him those answers because I thought he might ask them. On why the Government denied humanitarian aid to the Chagossians on the island, I repeat what I said to him in answer to the questions he asked on that: the reporting of the incident that we have read is inaccurate. The British Indian Ocean Territory Administration has not refused humanitarian resupply. BIOTA engaged in good faith and expedited discussions over the Easter period to facilitate a resupply mission, approving a permit covering approximately 140 categories of items, including several items not essential for humanitarian purposes. Upon the resupply vessel’s arrival in the territory, BIOT customs and immigration officers discovered aboard a number of items that were not on the manifest. Had those been prepared for the manifest, they would almost certainly have been permitted, so what was on the manifest was allowed.
On the question of resettlement, as the noble Lord pointed out, I have written to clarify those remarks. The proposed UK-Mauritius agreement provides the only viable path to resettlement on the archipelago. Mauritius will be able to resettle the islands other than Diego Garcia, and it will be for Mauritius to set the terms of and manage any future resettlement. That may not satisfy the noble Lord, but it is the answer.
With regard to the landings on Peros Banhos, the individuals who landed on that atoll did so illegally without a permit. There is no legal right for anyone, regardless of their citizenship or heritage, to enter the islands without a valid permit, and there is a temporary court order in place preventing vessels from transporting further people on to the Chagos Islands. I hope I have reassured the noble Lord by answering the questions that I promised him I would the next time I had the opportunity at the Dispatch Box.
Moving from the specifics to more general points, I will start by speaking about the national conversation. Let us be clear about this, so that noble Lords know whom to hold to account. In terms of the Ministry of Defence—not the whole of government—I have now been given responsibility for the national conversation. I am all for accountability; I will not shy away from it, but that is where we are with it. It is quite right that the noble and gallant Lords, Lord Stirrup and Lord Houghton, and others, raised the point, as did the noble Baronesses, Lady Harris, Lady Royall, Lady Antrobus, Lady Rafferty, and the noble Lords, Lord Naseby and Lord Hannan, my noble friends Lord Forbes, Lord John and Lord Harris, and others. The national conversation is crucial. I will come to defence spending and to the defence investment plan in a moment. But the national conversation is absolutely crucial, which is why so many noble Lords have raised the issue.
A discussion that we are having now in government is about how that starts—it will start soon—and what that national conversation should be about and what script we should take to the British people to discuss with them. The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, and others, are right: we will ask other people about their views, and we will take advice so that we have an agreed way of speaking to the British public that is inclusive, which lays out the threat without being alarmist, and takes us forward. That is what we will do with respect to the national conversation, and it is absolutely crucial that we do that.
I cannot remember who, but somebody said that they were not necessarily frightened of Russian paratroopers arriving in their particular vicinity. The nature of the conflicts that we face, however, exist in the era of cyber, of grey warfare, of threats to underwater cables. These are all things that noble Lords in here will know. In that sense, we are already threatened; we are already being attacked. We need to do this for all of us and, of course, that requires resilience. What does this mean for us in terms of protecting our own infrastructure and protecting our own cyber space? What should we ask our population to be able to provide for themselves on an individual or family basis? My noble friend Lady Rafferty mentioned Defence Medical Services; again, we need to have a whole-of-society approach, not just in defence but in terms of medical provision and local authorities and all those things that each and every noble Lord would say are important.
On spending, I cannot and will not satisfy people in here about spending or about the defence investment plan, but, as has been pointed out a number of times, I think that if we are saying to our population that we require more money to be spent on defence, rather than on other things, then we require a conversation with them to address the fact that the prioritisation of spending—for this Government or for any Government —will have to change to a certain extent with respect to defence, and that will perhaps mean that less will be spent on this or that. We need to have that conversation and bring people with us to do that. No Government can shy away from that, and there will be differences of view. Your families may be different to mine, but we have good discussions sometimes in my own family about this, and that is a perfectly proper thing to do. Something that we will have to take forward is how we build that resilience. I understand the points that have been made about the defence readiness Bill that is being prepared at the moment.
Another general topic was soft power. The noble Lords, Lord Lamont and Lord Howard, and many others, made the point about the importance of diplomacy. Of course it matters how many tanks, ships, aircraft and submarines you have, but one thing this country has that sometimes we do not give ourselves enough credit for is our enormous ability to influence across Europe, and across the globe, through our relationships.
When I go to other countries—people here travel all over the world—they want the UK stood beside them. This is a Foreign Office/MoD debate. The noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, will know that having a British ambassador in a foreign embassy stood with British military personnel, going to discuss a particular problem, conflict or crisis —something that needs to be done—with the military-to-military and ambassador-to-ambassador co-operation and network, is fundamental to the architecture we have across the world. Nation after nation asks for that. I will tell noble Lords why I think they ask for it. The involvement of the British military, with the ambassador, gives a confidence, legitimacy and status to a particular Government who are seeking to do something to resolve a conflict in their area. The integrated global defence network that we run from the MoD, in partnership with our Foreign Office colleagues, is fundamental. We need to build and develop that.
On overseas development assistance, difficult decisions have been made. The only point I will make, which I think our population needs to hear, is that at current prices in 2026-27 we are still spending £10 billion on overseas development assistance. I will give noble Lords the figures; they will go down next year and I appreciate that. I am not saying it will not go down, but it will still be £8.9 billion. The year after, in 2028-29, it goes back up again to £9.4 billion. We can say that it should never have been reduced, but significant sums of money are still being spent by our Government—our country—to deliver certain things. I have lifted out particular things. The BBC World Service is receiving additional grants and the British Council grant in aid is also increasing. I appreciate the difficulties and points noble Lords have made. All I am saying is that, alongside that, we are still doing things.
On the defence investment plan, I cannot add much to the points I have made in the past. I know the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, the noble Lords, Lord Tugendhat, Lord Magan, Lord Hintze, Lord Leigh and Lord Dannatt, and the noble and gallant Lords, Lord Houghton and Lord Stirrup, made the points—
Lord Lee of Trafford (LD)
Could the Minister tell us whether the defence investment plan is likely to be published during the premiership of the present Prime Minister?
Lord Coaker (Lab)
No. I just cannot add anything further to what I have said. The defence investment plan will come forward and lay out some things, and that will be related to the spending we decide on.
On the UK-EU relationship, the Government’s position is quite clear. We have laid it out. There is a debate about rejoining the EU; I know the Liberal Democrat Benches want to lay out that we should rejoin. Our position is that it would be futile and silly not to say that we should have a close relationship. As my noble friend Lady Ashton pointed out, of course we should have a close relationship with Europe. It does not mean we are going to rejoin the EU. But we should have a relationship with Europe to defend Europe and work with Europe in terms of economic prosperity and military assistance to each other, given the fact that NATO is the fundamental defensive alliance for us. Of course we should do that.
The point was made by my noble friend Lady Royall about bilateral relationships. That is why we have signed agreements with France and Germany. The noble Lord, Lord Magan, was talking about Germany. It is why we have established and agreed a bilateral treaty with Germany, recognising the importance of that relationship. We have also done it with Poland and other countries. It is why we lead JEF. We have those relationships with Europe and we will develop and strengthen them. However, we will do it in a way that does not reopen arguments and get us into a sterile argument about whether we join the EU or not and whether we are respecting the referendum, when actually what we are doing and saying is that we need a close and proper relationship.
On the Middle East, the noble Lords, Lord Ahmad and Lord Howard, asked me specifically about diplomacy. We carry on with negotiation and diplomacy, of course. That is why my noble friend Lady Chapman went to Israel—and I think Gaza—last year, and it is why she met the Egyptian Foreign Minister yesterday, which the noble Lord asked about. Every single week, I have met defence attachés and ambassadors from the Middle East to talk about the supply of defence equipment and what we are doing to support them in a defensive posture with respect to the Iranian war. We have done all that. In answer to many of the points that noble Lords made, we retain that influence.
Antisemitism is an absolute national disgrace. To have what we have had happen is not just something awful; it is a national stain on this country. We must do all we can to ensure that that view, which the vast majority of people share, is heard loud and clear by the community. In answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, of course Israel remains important to us. But as my noble friend Lord Dubs and many others in this Chamber have said, we will criticise that Government where we think they are wrong. There is nothing contradictory in that. The US criticises us, and we criticise the US. We value Israel, but we are not going to stand aside if we think it has done something wrong. Indeed, another noble Lord made the point that people hold Israel to account in the Knesset.
The noble Lord, Lord Callanan, made a point about Palestine. Recognising Palestine was an important step. It was a way of saying that we want to move the negotiations and discussions forward. It does not in any way undermine the Government’s commitment to the two-state solution. Of course there should be a viable and strong Israel, but alongside that there needs to be a strong and viable Palestine. The only way of achieving that, however frustrating and demanding, and however many times we think it will not work and never happen, is through discussions and negotiations. Somebody mentioned how near we were to an agreement a few years ago. It fell at one of the last hurdles, but we need to recapture that optimism and hope for the future. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton, made the point that sometimes we have to have hope to take these things forward.
On the point that the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, made about genocide, the Government’s position is exactly the same as it has been for years. The UK’s long-standing policy is that any formal determination as to whether genocide has occurred is a matter for a competent national or international court, after consideration of all the evidence available in the context of a credible judicial process, rather than for Governments or non-judicial bodies. I could not agree more with the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, on his point about what a disgrace antisemitism is. I will think about the invite to the event—if that is the appropriate word—that the noble Lord mentioned.
On Pakistan and the role it has played with respect to Iran, without saying too much, if you look at the military-to-military co-operation there, it helps enormously. On Sudan, what is happening is an absolute disgrace. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, that we are going to conference after conference to try to ensure that we move forward and deal with the crisis taking place. On Cyprus, I am very happy to meet the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, if he wants to. We have been delighted with the co-operation and support that we have had in Cyprus with respect to what has been going on.
The noble Lord, Lord Alton, mentioned the need to respond to not only China but Russia. He is quite right. It is important for us to consider the axis of Iran, North Korea, Russia and China and how we respond to that. His contributions in this Chamber are enormously helpful in holding the Government to account and reminding us of our responsibility on that.
As someone else said, it is an absolute delight that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, can say what he says to all of us, although most of us disagree with him. I say again that much of what we are doing is to defend the right of people such as him to say what they think without fear of the police. That not a smart or a sarcastic argument but an important one. I think, from my university days, it was John Stuart Mill who said that you must always remember that the opinion of one is as important as the opinion of a majority in being respected and listened to. When you look back over the years, you sometimes find that a minority opinion at a particular time becomes a majority opinion when you roll it forward 50 years. We should reflect on that.
I will abuse my privilege for another minute or two. I turn to the noble Baronesses, Lady Royall and Lady Neville-Jones, and the noble Lord, Lord Magan. Let us be clear about this: the US-UK relationship is a fundamental strategic alliance that remains hugely important to this country and our global alliances. It is hugely important to NATO and to ensuring that we continue with our efforts. We will continue to work hard on that, however difficult and challenging it may be at times. The biggest strategic point is ensuring that NATO retains its credibility and importance, and we will continue with that.
The noble Baroness, Lady Kingsmill, mentioned the defence readiness Bill and the noble Lord, Lord McDonald, said that meeting strategic threats required political stability. All those sorts of things are important, and we continue to implement the strategic defence review.
If I have forgotten or missed out certain points that people have made, I apologise. We will go through the debate and return to them. I finish where I started and say once again that the influence of our country is enormous across Europe and the world. Europe wants us to stand with it, as do many other parts of the world. We have to have confidence and belief, whatever the challenges. We will in due course publish the defence investment plan and we will come to spending decisions that may or may not please different people, but, at the end of the day, it is significantly important that all of us are united in the determination to ensure that we play our proper part in the world and achieve what we all want: the defence of democracy, human rights and freedom in our own country, our own continent and across the world. All of us are united in that.