Personal Independence Payment and Universal Credit
(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)
Read Full debate
Baroness Spielman
To ask His Majesty’s Government what recent assessment they have made of trends in the level of people claiming Personal Independence Payment and Universal Credit.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)
My Lords, this Government are concerned about levels of economic inactivity in our society. It is crucial that our social security system supports and incentivises work. This Government will transform the system from one that writes people off to one that gives people the support and opportunities to live their fullest lives. That means supporting those who can work to do so while always protecting those with the most severe needs.
Baroness Spielman (Con)
My Lords, if the Minister agrees that work is the best route out of welfare dependency, why did the Budget contain no measures that the OBR judged would have a material effect on employment?
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, the Question was about levels of PIP and universal credit, both of which were creations of the previous Conservative Government, under which levels of inactivity went through the roof. The Opposition want to look at what we have done; we have already taken steps to reform the system. We have rebalanced universal credit to reduce the gap between the standard rate and the health-related rate. We have invested in the right to try, given out employment support and launched the biggest crackdown on fraud and error in the social security system. This month, reports will come from the Timms and Milburn reviews and, after that, the Government will show how this system can be created into one that supports work and pushes forward. I urge the noble Baroness to watch this space.
Lord Young of Cookham (Con)
My Lords, in last Thursday’s debate on PIP, I gave examples of websites that are helping people to game the system. While applicants are entitled to professional independent advice, at least two websites advise people to tell lies to pursue a fraudulent claim. What is the noble Baroness’s department doing about that?
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
The noble Lord raises an important point. We are watching carefully and monitoring benefits-related content and emerging risks online, and we are working to ensure that people have access to appropriate support. In the coming weeks, we will also introduce a new code of practice that will clamp down on activity by claims management companies that are trying to get people to pay them to apply for benefits that they can get perfectly well for free. That simply is not there. If the noble Lord looks, he will see that our new “Don’t pay to claim” marketing campaign has already gone live. It will be out there between now and Christmas encouraging pensioners and those who support them not to pay anything for benefits that they can get for free. I am glad the noble Lord raised this: we are acting in this space and will keep monitoring it.
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)
My Lords, the Question is about the trends in claims. I have not heard anything from the Minister about how the Government are looking at the trends and what they are doing to deal with those trends. It is just: “We are doing the same as we have done before”. There are trends, and I do not think they are being looked at carefully enough.
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
I apologise: clearly, I have not explained myself clearly enough. Let me try again, because we are absolutely not doing what used to happen. We are doing different things, and they are starting to have an effect. For example, when I say that we have rebalanced universal credit, what the previous Government did was to freeze the rates for universal credit but not for disability benefits. What then happened was that people were either driven into poverty or were diverted into sickness and disability benefits. What we have done is to rebalance universal credit. We have invested in right to try, so that people who are disabled can take a risk on work, knowing that if it does not work, they can still get support. Crucially, we are investing in employment support to help people to get out there and into work. If the noble Lord looks at the trends, the number of people who are economically inactive because of long-term sickness has been going up stratospherically; that rise has finally levelled off. That is the difference that we are beginning to make. We will not do this overnight. Nobody has ever fixed this overnight. Oppositions often pretend too; Governments do not. We are going to make a difference.
Baroness O’Grady of Upper Holloway (Lab)
My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that Labour’s commitment to strengthen rights to flexible working will help to lower the barriers to employment that many people with disabilities and mental health problems have experienced? Does she agree that, rather than punishing people with health conditions, one of the best ways to get more money into the Exchequer is by improving dignity at work?
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My noble friend raises a really important point. We know that many people would like to work but struggle to. We have to do a number of things. We have to invest in them—for example, our Connect to Work programme involves working with people who have disabilities or other barriers to try to find out what work they could do and what they would like to do, match them to a job and, crucially, support the employers to make that possible.
Charlie Mayfield, who did the brilliant Keep Britain Working review for us, produced recommendations for employers. Ten months on from that, we are now developing Britain’s first workplace health system, bringing together better workplaces, support and intelligence. Our job is to make sure that everyone who can work should be working. If they need help to do that, it is the Government’s job to give them that help and make sure that employers can encourage those people into the workplace and enable them to stay there.
The Lord Speaker (Lord Forsyth of Drumlean)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, is taking part remotely. I invite him to speak.
Lord Shinkwin (Con) [R]
My Lords, one of the greatest threats to PIP and, for example, Motability—I declare an interest as a beneficiary—is the growing resentment among the public at the seemingly inexorable extension of eligibility, over which, I should add, Motability has no say. What measures are the Government taking to reduce eligibility and thereby put PIP on a sustainable footing for those who need it most?
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. I have already said what we are doing, but, just for example, the Milburn review is looking at the position of young people, because almost 1 million—one in eight—of our young people are not in employment, education or training, and a growing number of those are on the grounds of sickness, disability or the inability to work. We also have a growing number of people across the age range who are simply not able to work. We need to make sure that the system supports them and gets them into work. The Milburn review will look at young people. The Timms review, by my right honourable friend Stephen Timms, is reviewing whether PIP is fit for purpose—the interim report suggests that it is not. Both reports will be coming out this month, the Government will respond soon after that and we will be legislating in the new year.
Lord Scriven (LD)
My Lords, earlier this year, the Government told me that they do not expect to identify the impact of the evidence-led decision-making trial on people with a learning disability and have no specific available evaluation to do so. Will the Minister commit that the trial will not be expanded until the impact on people with a learning disability has been measured and published?
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My Lords, I know the noble Lord has raised this before and that it is an issue about which he is deeply concerned. The Government look carefully in their decision-making at the impact of all the reforms on all those who use the service and who have a range of different needs. Whenever that happens, we have to look, for example, at an equality impact assessment, and we look at the impact of changes. We will continue to do that. All evaluation that is to be published will be done at the appropriate time.
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)
My Lords, will the Minister explain how, as we get people back into work, which the majority of people want to do, we will ensure that they do not have to work from home? I fully agree that for many it is a huge advantage, but the latest figures from the well-being survey at Bupa show how lonely young people are and how easy it is to lose employment if you have no social connection with the people you are working with. Can we ensure that the Government carefully consider how employers will be responsible for bringing people into work as well, so that it does not become cheaper to employ people who are disabled at home?
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
The noble Baroness raises an important point. There are some people for whom working from home may be the only practical thing that they can do because of their condition, and I know that with her background she will understand that very well. But I also think she makes an important point. I know that in my very first job I was probably, frankly, utterly useless for the first few months—I was working in an office; yes, I know, insert joke of your choice here, I realise—and a lot of what I learned, I learned from listening to other people. I learned how people talked on the phone. I learned how you operated a system. I learned how you got on with colleagues and how to navigate a difficult environment—which has stood me in great stead, I must say, in recent years. When people are starting out on a career, in most cases it will be helpful for them to have experience. One of the things we are doing is looking at how we can invest in work experience early on, work experience in schools, so when you turn up on day one it is not the first time you have been into a workplace. I think that the noble Baroness makes an important point.
Lord Watts (Lab)
My Lords, is it not the case that blunt cuts in benefits do not work and the most effective way of reducing benefits and getting people back to work is to give them the support that they need?
Baroness Sherlock (Lab)
My noble friend raises an excellent point. Successive Governments have looked very hard at finding ways to do this. The reason that we asked Alan Milburn to look carefully at young people and the drivers behind inactivity is that we need to understand why people are not in work, not just tell them that they should be and cut money. We need to find a way to make sure that the social security bill is sustainable over time, but we also need to make sure it is doing its job of supporting people to get into work and, crucially, supporting them to stay there and to flourish when they do.