Commons Chamber
Friday 4th July 2025
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10:50
Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)
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Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)
This bill aims to close existing loopholes that are far too often used by dishonest breeders and smugglers to disguise commercial imports of cats and dogs as non- commercial imports in order to avoid compliance with existing welfare standards. I welcome raising the minimum wage at which cats and dogs can be imported to six months. Non-. The bill also restricts the import of heavily pregnant animals. The Dogs Trust has seen a record 600 % increase in the number of heavily pregnant bitches intercepted at the border.
Preparing for this debate today, I read about the most appalling cases of pregnant animals being transported in cramped conditions with little food or water to give birth. This barbaric act is can permanently damage the health of both the mother and puppies and kittens. Similarly, we support the decision to cap the number of animals transported noncommercially. This will close another loophole exploited by smugglers which allows them to transport several dozen animals in one trip, claiming ownership of five per certain -- person.
And equally glad to see this legislation banning the import of cats and dogs with non-exempt mutilations into Britain. Charities such as the RSPCA have seen incidences of this scaffold 20 fold in the last decade. We are committed on the side of the House to end this horrible practice, and I wish to pay tribute to my Honourable friend, the member for Epping Forest, who like the member for Winchester, is also veterinary surgeon and a passionate advocate of this reform.
Of course, mutilation is not limited to dogs. This legislation also outlaws the declawing of cats. This is a horrible procedure which has no medical basis and we support this measure as well. This is a good bill. It -- its measures are well considered and designed to implement positive change to protect our beloved pets. Are pleased to confirm on behalf of the Opposition that we support this bill. I sincerely hope it gets the support it deserves across the house.
-- I am pleased to confirm on behalf of the Opposition confirm on behalf of the Opposition that we support this bill.
Preparing for this debate today, I read about the most appalling cases of pregnant animals being transported in cramped conditions with little food or water to give birth. This barbaric act is can permanently damage the health of both the mother and puppies and kittens. Similarly, we support the decision to cap the number of animals transported noncommercially. This will close another loophole exploited by smugglers which allows them to transport several dozen animals in one trip, claiming ownership of five per certain -- person.
And equally glad to see this legislation banning the import of cats and dogs with non-exempt mutilations into Britain. Charities such as the RSPCA have seen incidences of this scaffold 20 fold in the last decade. We are committed on the side of the House to end this horrible practice, and I wish to pay tribute to my Honourable friend, the member for Epping Forest, who like the member for Winchester, is also veterinary surgeon and a passionate advocate of this reform.
Of course, mutilation is not limited to dogs. This legislation also outlaws the declawing of cats. This is a horrible procedure which has no medical basis and we support this measure as well. This is a good bill. It -- its measures are well considered and designed to implement positive change to protect our beloved pets. Are pleased to confirm on behalf of the Opposition that we support this bill. I sincerely hope it gets the support it deserves across the house.
-- I am pleased to confirm on behalf of the Opposition confirm on behalf of the Opposition that we support this bill.
10:52
Emma Hardy MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
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Emma Hardy MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
I'd like to congratulate the honourable Member for Winchester who has championed this bill and guided its passage through the House. I have welcomed his expertise that has led to this debate and his information and the way he has used that during the Committee Stage. I was fascinated to learn about the Stop the Crop campaign. I'd like to thank all members that have contributed to a constructive and positive debate during each of the bill's parliamentary stages and, of course, today.
My Honourable friend, course, today. My Honourable friend, the member for Hamilton South... I thank him for reminding us all of the importance of Doorstep Dogs. One of my favourite is a dog that pulling stages. I'd like to thank him for support and join him in supporting animal charities as well. And my Honourable friend, the member for Bolton, who mentioned dog fences. This is part of the dangerous dogs act and we are working with stakeholders to encourage responsible dog ownership and reduced dog attacks.
As my honourable friend pointed out, it is a minority of dog owners but it is extremely distressing for anybody involved in that. The member for Glasgow East mentioned about stray dogs and the difficulty they have gaining trust, which is so true, and the damage, the cruelty to animals can do throughout the pet's life. How can we make sure we are sending the right message as all of us together in this House that the practices of mutilating animals is unacceptable? And the member for Bolton West, I thank him for his support and for raising the importance of ending smuggling for bio security.
It's the wrong thing to do for the animal's welfare but also from a bio security perspective as well. It's a very important point. And how we need to bring down the demand for mutilated dogs. I think there is more that we can all do across the whole house for this. I also agree with him about ferrets. My Honourable friend, the member for Crawley, I thank him for his support. I can offer assurance that yes, centre's sleigh does have a separate system so there is no difficulty in Rangers passing between the border on the ninth of -- the night of 24 December.
-- Reindeers. My Honourable member, the member for Portsmouth North. I'd like to join her in thanking the charities imports with. I thank him for all the work -- I thank them for all of the work that they do across her constituency. As noted, isn't it nice when we have the whole house united on a matter of animal welfare? What a nice way to end the week. The public is my passion for pets is very much reflected in the statistics.
According to the PDSA, pet ownership has increased in recent years with over half of adults all owning a pet. As a proud owner of my cat, city now, Megatron and Lily, I feel I cats receive equal rights to dogs. I pay tribute to my daughter Isabel and the magic way she has with animals. She has a particular talent. We find young kittens, in helping -- we have had young kittens. She has helped bring them up to be very loving.
Honestly, more like a dog than a cat, really, was our beloved pet. It only goes to reinforce the expert point that was made that when cats and animals are treated well when they're little, they grow up to be soft and gentle and loving animals. Imported cats should have parity of protection as they do across other animal welfare laws. I'm going to give a small mentioned to Jenny's Cat House. Jenny gives a home to lots of cats who have been abandoned.
She does great work as many do across the
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constituency. As we are talking about
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As we are talking about constituency issues, there is a very sad matter that has happened in Northampton recently. There was an Northampton recently. There was an arson attack in Dunelm and that spread to Pets at Home and that spread to Pets at Home and that ripped through the dog rumours and the store. Will the Minister join me in saying thank you to all the volunteers, vets and groomers and volunteers, vets and groomers and fire services who saved so many pets
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is that fire took hold? I thank him for his intervention. Very happy to join him in thanking everyone involved. It's horrific everyone involved. It's horrific that somebody would wish to attack a building where they knew animals would be receiving treatment. I hope would be receiving treatment. I hope whoever has done that is quickly brought to justice for what they've done. As the number of pet owners in done. As the number of pet owners in this House has increased, there will be more people travelling with their be more people travelling with their pets.
Many dogs, cats and ferrets pets. Many dogs, cats and ferrets were moved noncommercially. The rise in non-commercial movement also accounts for the uptake in and scrupulous traders that abuse our pet travel laws to smuggle animals into the country. Due to its illicit nature, we cannot now the true number of beds illegally smuggled into Britain. What we do know is the devastating effect it can have on the health and welfare of animals that suffer as a result. I'm delighted to reiterate the government's support for this bill.
These measures represent a crucial step forward in our efforts to tackle the pet smuggling trade. As we set out in our Manifesto, this government is committed to ending smuggling. The measures on the face of the bill closely pulls in a travel laws that smugglers exploit. The bill will tighten these roles -- rules by reducing the amount of animals in can non-commercial -- in non-commercial movement across non-commercial movement across borders. These limits will be reduced further should our travel rules be abused further.
As the honourable member from Winchester has highlighted, the bill also introduces the powerful government to tackle low fare imports. The government must use these regulation making powers to introduce a set of three impactful restrictions. This will include raising the minimum age at which dogs and cats can be moved into Great Britain to six months. This will ban -- also banning the import of heavily pregnant dogs and cats and banning the import of dogs cats and banning the import of dogs We want less animals to suffer.
I know colleagues are keen to see these regulations make it onto the statute book as soon as possible. The government is committed to introducing the prohibitions on the bill as soon as practicable. Delivering these measures through secondary legislation will allow the government to work closely with stakeholders to understand where appropriate exemptions from these measures may be needed. These will need to be carefully considered to make sure we do not inadvertently create any loopholes that can be abused. Of course enforcement of the measures in the bill will be crucial to their success.
Local authorities and the Animal and Plant Health Agency will continue to be responsible for enforcing pets travel and commercial import requirements. We will be working closely with enforcement bodies to ensure they have the right tools and guidance to enforce these measures effectively. I welcome the new powers in the bill to make regulations which will provide authorities with a clear process and enforcement powers but presented with a non-compliant pets. This will allow for the cost of detention to be met and, if necessary, the animal to be rehomed.
This will bolster the enforcement tools to agencies empowering them to take appropriate action where the new rules are not followed. But ensuring we are protecting the welfare of individual pets that are imported illegally. At the Public Bill Committee, the government supported several amendments to the bill which provided drafting clarifications and the necessary flexibility for genuine owners will be impacted by the new rules due to protected characteristics or circumstances beyond their control. I was pleased to see these amendments passed. I'm confident they will strengthen the bill.
During Committee stage, the government supported amendments to narrow the bill's power to make criminal offences was essential that any criminal offences that are created under this power are foreseeable on the face of the bill and receive the appropriate scrutiny from Parliament. The offence is specified on the face of the bill have been formed by engagement with enforcement bodies to ensure they are fit for purpose. As touched upon by the honourable gentleman, the bill received clarification drafting changing the Public Bill Committee.
This change made clear that the existing definition of pet and within our Pet Travel Regulations is not affected by the bill's measures. Ultimately it ensures that the status quo is maintained and the effective operation of our pet travel regime. The bill was also amended to allow an appropriate authority to effectively grant an exemption from the tighter non- commercial pets travel rules is amending the bill in exceptional or compelling circumstances. I would like to reassure honourable members, this will be more tightly controlled.
The government is committed to ensure it will not result in loopholes that can be exported from smugglers. This mechanism will give the government flexibility to deal with unanticipated events that may impact the ability of genuine pet owners to follow the more stringent pet travel rules introduced by the bill. For example, in cases of a force majeure such as a natural disaster that grounded planes or medical emergencies that stop owners from travelling within five days of their pet. Furthermore, these amendments seek to ensure that the new measures introduced by the bill do not adversely impact protected groups such as assistance dog users who may wish to travel together in groups larger than five.
This has been carefully considered by the government in accordance with its Public Sector Equality Duty under the 2010 Equality Act. Importantly these amendments do not provide bank it exemptions for the rules and instead each case will be considered on an individual basis. Governments will work with the Animal and Plant Health Agency to ensure that there is a clear process to follow, but exemptions are only granted in truly exceptional or compelling The government also supported an amendment that removes the bill's power to make further consequential amendments arising from the bill changes to the pet travel rules and corresponding import rules.
Since the bill was introduced we are further assessed the potential changes that might be necessary to legislation as result of the measures in the bill. We are confident that no further amendments are required. We are keen to ensure that we do not take more power than is necessary. These amendments have not been considered likely, and I'm in no doubt they improve the deliverability and enforcement of the bill. Furthermore, in this debate, several MPs have raised resetting relations with the EU. As announced at the summit in May, the EU and UK have agreed to work together on phytosanitary which means taking pets on holiday into means taking pets on holiday into the EU will be easier and cheaper.
It's important we get the right agreement for the UK so we are not putting any arbitrary deadlines to negotiations. We will of course provide more information on pet passport in due course. In the meantime, owners will still need an animal health certificate for their pets. If they are travelling from Great Britain to an EU country. While I am unable to comment on life negotiations, I want to reassure honourable members that the government will continue to support this bill while negotiating and SPS agreement with the EU.
As set out in the government's manifesto, we are committed to ending puppy smuggling and delivering a better future for animals. I'm pleased to say that this bill does that. It's key measures deliver recommendations put forward by the committee and tackle multiple concerns that have been raised by stakeholders regarding loopholes in our current pet travel rules. Therefore I commend the honourable member for Winchester for
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taking forward this important bill. I'm very much looking forward to seeing it on the statute book. With the leave of the house I
My Honourable friend, course, today. My Honourable friend, the member for Hamilton South... I thank him for reminding us all of the importance of Doorstep Dogs. One of my favourite is a dog that pulling stages. I'd like to thank him for support and join him in supporting animal charities as well. And my Honourable friend, the member for Bolton, who mentioned dog fences. This is part of the dangerous dogs act and we are working with stakeholders to encourage responsible dog ownership and reduced dog attacks.
As my honourable friend pointed out, it is a minority of dog owners but it is extremely distressing for anybody involved in that. The member for Glasgow East mentioned about stray dogs and the difficulty they have gaining trust, which is so true, and the damage, the cruelty to animals can do throughout the pet's life. How can we make sure we are sending the right message as all of us together in this House that the practices of mutilating animals is unacceptable? And the member for Bolton West, I thank him for his support and for raising the importance of ending smuggling for bio security.
It's the wrong thing to do for the animal's welfare but also from a bio security perspective as well. It's a very important point. And how we need to bring down the demand for mutilated dogs. I think there is more that we can all do across the whole house for this. I also agree with him about ferrets. My Honourable friend, the member for Crawley, I thank him for his support. I can offer assurance that yes, centre's sleigh does have a separate system so there is no difficulty in Rangers passing between the border on the ninth of -- the night of 24 December.
-- Reindeers. My Honourable member, the member for Portsmouth North. I'd like to join her in thanking the charities imports with. I thank him for all the work -- I thank them for all of the work that they do across her constituency. As noted, isn't it nice when we have the whole house united on a matter of animal welfare? What a nice way to end the week. The public is my passion for pets is very much reflected in the statistics.
According to the PDSA, pet ownership has increased in recent years with over half of adults all owning a pet. As a proud owner of my cat, city now, Megatron and Lily, I feel I cats receive equal rights to dogs. I pay tribute to my daughter Isabel and the magic way she has with animals. She has a particular talent. We find young kittens, in helping -- we have had young kittens. She has helped bring them up to be very loving.
Honestly, more like a dog than a cat, really, was our beloved pet. It only goes to reinforce the expert point that was made that when cats and animals are treated well when they're little, they grow up to be soft and gentle and loving animals. Imported cats should have parity of protection as they do across other animal welfare laws. I'm going to give a small mentioned to Jenny's Cat House. Jenny gives a home to lots of cats who have been abandoned.
She does great work as many do across the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
constituency. As we are talking about
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As we are talking about constituency issues, there is a very sad matter that has happened in Northampton recently. There was an Northampton recently. There was an arson attack in Dunelm and that spread to Pets at Home and that spread to Pets at Home and that ripped through the dog rumours and the store. Will the Minister join me in saying thank you to all the volunteers, vets and groomers and volunteers, vets and groomers and fire services who saved so many pets
**** Possible New Speaker ****
is that fire took hold? I thank him for his intervention. Very happy to join him in thanking everyone involved. It's horrific everyone involved. It's horrific that somebody would wish to attack a building where they knew animals would be receiving treatment. I hope would be receiving treatment. I hope whoever has done that is quickly brought to justice for what they've done. As the number of pet owners in done. As the number of pet owners in this House has increased, there will be more people travelling with their be more people travelling with their pets.
Many dogs, cats and ferrets pets. Many dogs, cats and ferrets were moved noncommercially. The rise in non-commercial movement also accounts for the uptake in and scrupulous traders that abuse our pet travel laws to smuggle animals into the country. Due to its illicit nature, we cannot now the true number of beds illegally smuggled into Britain. What we do know is the devastating effect it can have on the health and welfare of animals that suffer as a result. I'm delighted to reiterate the government's support for this bill.
These measures represent a crucial step forward in our efforts to tackle the pet smuggling trade. As we set out in our Manifesto, this government is committed to ending smuggling. The measures on the face of the bill closely pulls in a travel laws that smugglers exploit. The bill will tighten these roles -- rules by reducing the amount of animals in can non-commercial -- in non-commercial movement across non-commercial movement across borders. These limits will be reduced further should our travel rules be abused further.
As the honourable member from Winchester has highlighted, the bill also introduces the powerful government to tackle low fare imports. The government must use these regulation making powers to introduce a set of three impactful restrictions. This will include raising the minimum age at which dogs and cats can be moved into Great Britain to six months. This will ban -- also banning the import of heavily pregnant dogs and cats and banning the import of dogs cats and banning the import of dogs We want less animals to suffer.
I know colleagues are keen to see these regulations make it onto the statute book as soon as possible. The government is committed to introducing the prohibitions on the bill as soon as practicable. Delivering these measures through secondary legislation will allow the government to work closely with stakeholders to understand where appropriate exemptions from these measures may be needed. These will need to be carefully considered to make sure we do not inadvertently create any loopholes that can be abused. Of course enforcement of the measures in the bill will be crucial to their success.
Local authorities and the Animal and Plant Health Agency will continue to be responsible for enforcing pets travel and commercial import requirements. We will be working closely with enforcement bodies to ensure they have the right tools and guidance to enforce these measures effectively. I welcome the new powers in the bill to make regulations which will provide authorities with a clear process and enforcement powers but presented with a non-compliant pets. This will allow for the cost of detention to be met and, if necessary, the animal to be rehomed.
This will bolster the enforcement tools to agencies empowering them to take appropriate action where the new rules are not followed. But ensuring we are protecting the welfare of individual pets that are imported illegally. At the Public Bill Committee, the government supported several amendments to the bill which provided drafting clarifications and the necessary flexibility for genuine owners will be impacted by the new rules due to protected characteristics or circumstances beyond their control. I was pleased to see these amendments passed. I'm confident they will strengthen the bill.
During Committee stage, the government supported amendments to narrow the bill's power to make criminal offences was essential that any criminal offences that are created under this power are foreseeable on the face of the bill and receive the appropriate scrutiny from Parliament. The offence is specified on the face of the bill have been formed by engagement with enforcement bodies to ensure they are fit for purpose. As touched upon by the honourable gentleman, the bill received clarification drafting changing the Public Bill Committee.
This change made clear that the existing definition of pet and within our Pet Travel Regulations is not affected by the bill's measures. Ultimately it ensures that the status quo is maintained and the effective operation of our pet travel regime. The bill was also amended to allow an appropriate authority to effectively grant an exemption from the tighter non- commercial pets travel rules is amending the bill in exceptional or compelling circumstances. I would like to reassure honourable members, this will be more tightly controlled.
The government is committed to ensure it will not result in loopholes that can be exported from smugglers. This mechanism will give the government flexibility to deal with unanticipated events that may impact the ability of genuine pet owners to follow the more stringent pet travel rules introduced by the bill. For example, in cases of a force majeure such as a natural disaster that grounded planes or medical emergencies that stop owners from travelling within five days of their pet. Furthermore, these amendments seek to ensure that the new measures introduced by the bill do not adversely impact protected groups such as assistance dog users who may wish to travel together in groups larger than five.
This has been carefully considered by the government in accordance with its Public Sector Equality Duty under the 2010 Equality Act. Importantly these amendments do not provide bank it exemptions for the rules and instead each case will be considered on an individual basis. Governments will work with the Animal and Plant Health Agency to ensure that there is a clear process to follow, but exemptions are only granted in truly exceptional or compelling The government also supported an amendment that removes the bill's power to make further consequential amendments arising from the bill changes to the pet travel rules and corresponding import rules.
Since the bill was introduced we are further assessed the potential changes that might be necessary to legislation as result of the measures in the bill. We are confident that no further amendments are required. We are keen to ensure that we do not take more power than is necessary. These amendments have not been considered likely, and I'm in no doubt they improve the deliverability and enforcement of the bill. Furthermore, in this debate, several MPs have raised resetting relations with the EU. As announced at the summit in May, the EU and UK have agreed to work together on phytosanitary which means taking pets on holiday into means taking pets on holiday into the EU will be easier and cheaper.
It's important we get the right agreement for the UK so we are not putting any arbitrary deadlines to negotiations. We will of course provide more information on pet passport in due course. In the meantime, owners will still need an animal health certificate for their pets. If they are travelling from Great Britain to an EU country. While I am unable to comment on life negotiations, I want to reassure honourable members that the government will continue to support this bill while negotiating and SPS agreement with the EU.
As set out in the government's manifesto, we are committed to ending puppy smuggling and delivering a better future for animals. I'm pleased to say that this bill does that. It's key measures deliver recommendations put forward by the committee and tackle multiple concerns that have been raised by stakeholders regarding loopholes in our current pet travel rules. Therefore I commend the honourable member for Winchester for
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taking forward this important bill. I'm very much looking forward to seeing it on the statute book. With the leave of the house I
11:06
Dr Danny Chambers MP (Winchester, Liberal Democrat)
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With the leave of the house I call the doctor to wind up. I would like to thank all members
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I would like to thank all members who have been involved in this bill at the various stages including on at the various stages including on the Bill Committee. And for affording me a lot of correspondence about this as well. I would also like to thank the government and the Minister for the support for this bill and the civil servants and the House for the support they gave this office to get it done. About 10 years ago I was on the British Veterinary Association policy committee where we were tackling puppy smuggling and working with other organisations like RSPCA, Dogs Trust, Bakassi's home, and it is great day for other organisations who have wanted to see this happen..
I would also like to thank Lord Trees who is kindly sponsoring this bill through the upper house. He was 19 at Liverpool vet school and in the third year, he failed my five meant I had to spend the summer revising instead of coming back for resits. Given this bill will help prevent diseases coming into the UK, I'm hoping he might consider going back and giving me a retrospective distinction for the work that has been done. I would also like to thank my team, Private Members' Bills are a lot of work especially for a new team.
I noticed a couple of last-minute changes to my speech, I can only guess who wrote some of these was the I want to thank the team including my chief of staff, Tom Woods, and his cat, who is clearly the most intelligent cat in the world. And like to thank Emily kitchen, and her cats Tango, the most clumsy cat in the world. I would also like to thank Sophie happens, my Palmach assistant was on maternity leave as she did a huge amount on this.
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I wonder whether my friend the honourable member for Winchester would agree with me that it is most would agree with me that it is most appropriate that Madame did share is
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sitting in this chair. I am the proud owner of two lovely dogs. I look forward to seeing those
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I look forward to seeing those paintings. I want to thank Sophie Hammond for the work she did in the Hammond for the work she did in the early stages. She is on maternity leave now, I am so happy today. No longer will dogs and cats we take away from the parents of hugely away from the parents of hugely young age, but in the back of the van, sedated, mutilated, sick, overheated. This is something that overheated. This is something that will come to an end now.
It is a great step forward for animal great step forward for animal welfare. I would like to finally thank all the people of Winchester who elected me to serve as their MP who elected me to serve as their MP one year ago today. I am so pleased to be able to bring forward a piece of legislation that shows people of legislation that shows people that what happens here have a real impact in the real world. So thank you.
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The question is that the bill be
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The question is that the bill be read 1/3 time. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye". And of the
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contrary, "No". Green/GREEN MAC Dogs (Protection of Livestock)
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Dogs (Protection of Livestock) (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill. To be
Dr Danny Chambers MP (Winchester, Liberal Democrat)
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With the leave of the house I call the doctor to wind up. I would like to thank all members
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I would like to thank all members who have been involved in this bill at the various stages including on at the various stages including on the Bill Committee. And for affording me a lot of correspondence about this as well. I would also like to thank the government and the Minister for the support for this bill and the civil servants and the House for the support they gave this office to get it done. About 10 years ago I was on the British Veterinary Association policy committee where we were tackling puppy smuggling and working with other organisations like RSPCA, Dogs Trust, Bakassi's home, and it is great day for other organisations who have wanted to see this happen..
I would also like to thank Lord Trees who is kindly sponsoring this bill through the upper house. He was 19 at Liverpool vet school and in the third year, he failed my five meant I had to spend the summer revising instead of coming back for resits. Given this bill will help prevent diseases coming into the UK, I'm hoping he might consider going back and giving me a retrospective distinction for the work that has been done. I would also like to thank my team, Private Members' Bills are a lot of work especially for a new team.
I noticed a couple of last-minute changes to my speech, I can only guess who wrote some of these was the I want to thank the team including my chief of staff, Tom Woods, and his cat, who is clearly the most intelligent cat in the world. And like to thank Emily kitchen, and her cats Tango, the most clumsy cat in the world. I would also like to thank Sophie happens, my Palmach assistant was on maternity leave as she did a huge amount on this.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I wonder whether my friend the honourable member for Winchester would agree with me that it is most would agree with me that it is most appropriate that Madame did share is
**** Possible New Speaker ****
sitting in this chair. I am the proud owner of two lovely dogs. I look forward to seeing those
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I look forward to seeing those paintings. I want to thank Sophie Hammond for the work she did in the Hammond for the work she did in the early stages. She is on maternity leave now, I am so happy today. No longer will dogs and cats we take away from the parents of hugely away from the parents of hugely young age, but in the back of the van, sedated, mutilated, sick, overheated. This is something that overheated. This is something that will come to an end now.
It is a great step forward for animal great step forward for animal welfare. I would like to finally thank all the people of Winchester who elected me to serve as their MP who elected me to serve as their MP one year ago today. I am so pleased to be able to bring forward a piece of legislation that shows people of legislation that shows people that what happens here have a real impact in the real world. So thank you.
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The question is that the bill be
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The question is that the bill be read 1/3 time. As many are of that opinion say, "Aye". And of the
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contrary, "No". Green/GREEN MAC Dogs (Protection of Livestock)
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Dogs (Protection of Livestock) (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill. To be
11:10
Aphra Brandreth MP (Chester South and Eddisbury, Conservative)
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considered. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I
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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move that the bill be read 1/3 time. It is a pleasure to reach 1/3 time. It is a pleasure to reach this milestone in the journey of the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill. Livestock problems have devastated consequences for animals and farmers. I and other members shared the expenses that are resonated with them are farmers who have suffered attacks to their livestock. The damage of a livestock attack can be horrific.
Causing brutal injuries which are tragically often fatal. There are instances of stress causing pregnant livestock to miscarry, and separation of mothers and young leading to hypothermia or starvation. I've seen pictures from farmers in my constituency where attacks have mutilated their calves beyond any hope of keeping them alive. The consequences no matter what the scale of the attack are profound. Attacks are sadly all too common. The data from the recent National Sheep Association Survey speaks for itself.
97% of respondents had experienced incidents in the last 12 months. 98% agreed there is an urgent need for additional police powers. Highlighting that this remains a
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huge problem for the sector and showing how important it is to deliver this bill. I will give way. Is someone who grew up on a sheep
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Is someone who grew up on a sheep farm and as a vet he was treated the injuries that have been caused by injuries that have been caused by dogs being out of control, and also as someone who continues to work with farmers quite closely, I cannot with farmers quite closely, I cannot emphasise how necessary this legislation as it is devastating for legislation as it is devastating for the animals but a huge economic kit as well. It is horrendously stressful for everyone involved and this is not a niche problem.
It
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this is not a niche problem. It happens all the time. So I thank you for bringing forward the specific piece of legislation. Can I thank the honourable Member
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Can I thank the honourable Member for his insights as a vet, and for emphasising what so many people across the House no, these changes are vitally important. Can I also say how grateful I am to the honourable and right honourable members who took the time to serve on the Bill Committee. I'm truly grateful for their support, their contributions during the committee, the conversations I've had with many of them about the contents of this of them about the contents of this bill.
As we heard at committee, this bill will modernise the 1953 dogs protection of livestock act. Ensuring it reflects the needs of modern day farming. The bill strengthens police powers so they can do their job more effectively. Specifically, the bill gives police powers of entry, allows them to seize and detain dogs, and allows them to collect evidence. Changes that farmers in my constituency have specifically raised with me as being necessary. The bill will also increase the penalty and in turn we hope the deterrent against livestock, to an unlimited fine to reflect the severity of this practice from an animal welfare standpoint as was the economic toll and attack can have on farming.
Farming has diversified, and therefore the scope of livestock required protection has increased. I'm delighted therefore that alpacas and llamas will now be species protected within the scope of this bill. Anyone who has driven down country roads such as those in my constituency of Chester South and Eddisbury will know that farmers move livestock and the provisions within this bill to include roads and pass as locations for where an offence may take place grants recognition to this. It will give farmers greater reassurance when moving livestock.
As I said at committee stage, this legislation puts animal welfare and farmers right at its heart. Today marks exactly one year since the general election. And I'm deeply proud and grateful in my first year as the member for Chester South and Eddisbury. I have been able to bring forward a bill in my name that will make a genuine difference, both for animal welfare and for farmers. This is precisely why I stood for election. It is testament to the strength of this Parliament that an opposition backbencher and help deliver meaningful change in the law that will have a real and lasting impact.
Enjoying the countryside is something we should all be able to do. There is no finer countryside than in my constituency. However, that enjoyment comes with responsibility to preserve and protect it, and to support those who care for it every day. Our farming community. This bill gives us the opportunity to act. To protect our countryside, support our farmers, and strengthen animal welfare. I hope that members from all sides of this House will join me in backing it just as they did at committee
Aphra Brandreth MP (Chester South and Eddisbury, Conservative)
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considered. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I
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Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move that the bill be read 1/3 time. It is a pleasure to reach 1/3 time. It is a pleasure to reach this milestone in the journey of the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill. Livestock problems have devastated consequences for animals and farmers. I and other members shared the expenses that are resonated with them are farmers who have suffered attacks to their livestock. The damage of a livestock attack can be horrific.
Causing brutal injuries which are tragically often fatal. There are instances of stress causing pregnant livestock to miscarry, and separation of mothers and young leading to hypothermia or starvation. I've seen pictures from farmers in my constituency where attacks have mutilated their calves beyond any hope of keeping them alive. The consequences no matter what the scale of the attack are profound. Attacks are sadly all too common. The data from the recent National Sheep Association Survey speaks for itself.
97% of respondents had experienced incidents in the last 12 months. 98% agreed there is an urgent need for additional police powers. Highlighting that this remains a
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huge problem for the sector and showing how important it is to deliver this bill. I will give way. Is someone who grew up on a sheep
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Is someone who grew up on a sheep farm and as a vet he was treated the injuries that have been caused by injuries that have been caused by dogs being out of control, and also as someone who continues to work with farmers quite closely, I cannot with farmers quite closely, I cannot emphasise how necessary this legislation as it is devastating for legislation as it is devastating for the animals but a huge economic kit as well. It is horrendously stressful for everyone involved and this is not a niche problem.
It
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this is not a niche problem. It happens all the time. So I thank you for bringing forward the specific piece of legislation. Can I thank the honourable Member
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Can I thank the honourable Member for his insights as a vet, and for emphasising what so many people across the House no, these changes are vitally important. Can I also say how grateful I am to the honourable and right honourable members who took the time to serve on the Bill Committee. I'm truly grateful for their support, their contributions during the committee, the conversations I've had with many of them about the contents of this of them about the contents of this bill.
As we heard at committee, this bill will modernise the 1953 dogs protection of livestock act. Ensuring it reflects the needs of modern day farming. The bill strengthens police powers so they can do their job more effectively. Specifically, the bill gives police powers of entry, allows them to seize and detain dogs, and allows them to collect evidence. Changes that farmers in my constituency have specifically raised with me as being necessary. The bill will also increase the penalty and in turn we hope the deterrent against livestock, to an unlimited fine to reflect the severity of this practice from an animal welfare standpoint as was the economic toll and attack can have on farming.
Farming has diversified, and therefore the scope of livestock required protection has increased. I'm delighted therefore that alpacas and llamas will now be species protected within the scope of this bill. Anyone who has driven down country roads such as those in my constituency of Chester South and Eddisbury will know that farmers move livestock and the provisions within this bill to include roads and pass as locations for where an offence may take place grants recognition to this. It will give farmers greater reassurance when moving livestock.
As I said at committee stage, this legislation puts animal welfare and farmers right at its heart. Today marks exactly one year since the general election. And I'm deeply proud and grateful in my first year as the member for Chester South and Eddisbury. I have been able to bring forward a bill in my name that will make a genuine difference, both for animal welfare and for farmers. This is precisely why I stood for election. It is testament to the strength of this Parliament that an opposition backbencher and help deliver meaningful change in the law that will have a real and lasting impact.
Enjoying the countryside is something we should all be able to do. There is no finer countryside than in my constituency. However, that enjoyment comes with responsibility to preserve and protect it, and to support those who care for it every day. Our farming community. This bill gives us the opportunity to act. To protect our countryside, support our farmers, and strengthen animal welfare. I hope that members from all sides of this House will join me in backing it just as they did at committee
11:16
Mike Reader MP (Northampton South, Labour)
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Mike Reader MP (Northampton South, Labour)
The question is that the bill now be read for the third time.
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It is a pleasure to speak on another bill on animal welfare and another bill on animal welfare and fantastic, as the honourable member for Chester South and Eddisbury said, to see this brought in by a party that is not in government and we see cross-party support for this we see cross-party support for this legislation. I should declare that I am on the NFU's food and farming partnership. I've had the privilege partnership. I've had the privilege of visiting farms here in the UK of visiting farms here in the UK from farmers with a range of specialties.
I can say that this will be supported across the will be supported across the will be supported across the country. I met a farmer yesterday at a food event in Northampton as we launch the Northamptonshire Food Plan, and we spoke about the fact they want to see more government support for the real economy. This go wrong with this bill goes some go wrong with this bill goes some way in helping that. -- This bill goes some way in helping that.
I commend the member and the committee for making sure we get that right. The inclusion of alpacas and llamas, The inclusion of alpacas and llamas, which we are seeing more and more of. It is really, really positive. I think it will be positive we can continue to look at that. It is important to ensure sustainability and farming long-term. Bills like this must be continued to be adapted and evolve through successive governments. A farmer told me governments.
A farmer told me recently about an incident that happened on the land. It was shocking to hear the impact on him and his staff who had to discover that. Also the fact that the police really struggled to take action because some of the lack of powers and things like forensics. It is positive to see we are increasing the power through this bill as well, particularly the capture of DNA from dogs to ensure that perpetrators can be cut and brought to justice. It is a grim, green thing that continues to happen year on year and we need to take positive steps to change it.
I would also say this is really well time. And Northamptonshire, the police Commissioner has recognised that rural crime has been neglected over recent years. She is launched a rural crime survey, a number of roundtables and panels with farmers across the county, and now we are seeing farmer and production communities front and centre in the Northamptonshire Action Land. Northampton is possibly the largest town. There are also miles and acres of beautiful countryside. Really great timing to see this come through, before the summer as well.
I know that not just my Police and Crime Commissioners but Police and Crime Commissioners across England will recognise this as a positive step forward. When I read through the bill, the expansions I found interesting. For the record, my uncle is the president of the Randall's Association and repeatedly reminds me of the right to roam -- -- Ramblers Association. There is clear definition in the law to protect farmers and set boundaries for those who are walking their dogs.
Really positive to see recovery of costs in their. That's a big step forward which will deter people and be a reminder to many people who may be impacted by this bill. Overall, I think this is a very responsible and balanced approach and I commend the member on her work. Dog owners are responsible, as we heard earlier today, so many dog owners here in the chamber, and dog owners are not generally responsible. When things go wrong and you get someone who doesn't take that seriously, there has to be possibility for the police to step in.
It is the right balance, and I commend it. I thank the honourable member for bringing forward.
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It is a pleasure to speak on another bill on animal welfare and another bill on animal welfare and fantastic, as the honourable member for Chester South and Eddisbury said, to see this brought in by a party that is not in government and we see cross-party support for this we see cross-party support for this legislation. I should declare that I am on the NFU's food and farming partnership. I've had the privilege partnership. I've had the privilege of visiting farms here in the UK of visiting farms here in the UK from farmers with a range of specialties.
I can say that this will be supported across the will be supported across the will be supported across the country. I met a farmer yesterday at a food event in Northampton as we launch the Northamptonshire Food Plan, and we spoke about the fact they want to see more government support for the real economy. This go wrong with this bill goes some go wrong with this bill goes some way in helping that. -- This bill goes some way in helping that.
I commend the member and the committee for making sure we get that right. The inclusion of alpacas and llamas, The inclusion of alpacas and llamas, which we are seeing more and more of. It is really, really positive. I think it will be positive we can continue to look at that. It is important to ensure sustainability and farming long-term. Bills like this must be continued to be adapted and evolve through successive governments. A farmer told me governments.
A farmer told me recently about an incident that happened on the land. It was shocking to hear the impact on him and his staff who had to discover that. Also the fact that the police really struggled to take action because some of the lack of powers and things like forensics. It is positive to see we are increasing the power through this bill as well, particularly the capture of DNA from dogs to ensure that perpetrators can be cut and brought to justice. It is a grim, green thing that continues to happen year on year and we need to take positive steps to change it.
I would also say this is really well time. And Northamptonshire, the police Commissioner has recognised that rural crime has been neglected over recent years. She is launched a rural crime survey, a number of roundtables and panels with farmers across the county, and now we are seeing farmer and production communities front and centre in the Northamptonshire Action Land. Northampton is possibly the largest town. There are also miles and acres of beautiful countryside. Really great timing to see this come through, before the summer as well.
I know that not just my Police and Crime Commissioners but Police and Crime Commissioners across England will recognise this as a positive step forward. When I read through the bill, the expansions I found interesting. For the record, my uncle is the president of the Randall's Association and repeatedly reminds me of the right to roam -- -- Ramblers Association. There is clear definition in the law to protect farmers and set boundaries for those who are walking their dogs.
Really positive to see recovery of costs in their. That's a big step forward which will deter people and be a reminder to many people who may be impacted by this bill. Overall, I think this is a very responsible and balanced approach and I commend the member on her work. Dog owners are responsible, as we heard earlier today, so many dog owners here in the chamber, and dog owners are not generally responsible. When things go wrong and you get someone who doesn't take that seriously, there has to be possibility for the police to step in.
It is the right balance, and I commend it. I thank the honourable member for bringing forward.
11:21
Sarah Russell MP (Congleton, Labour)
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Sarah Russell MP (Congleton, Labour)
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I went to thank the honourable member for Chester South for bringing forward this bill. It is immensely popular with local farmers. I know having met with the NFU and their membership repeatedly over months now, if not really the whole of last year. It is one of the first things they have always mentioned to me. I want to commend her for her sterling work in the very collegiate way in which she always conducts herself and has always conducted herself in this matter.
In terms of the bill itself, it's fantastic that we are extending protection to alpacas and llamas, and no one wants to see attacks or worry, and having both of those definitions, both attack and worry, is really important and strengthens the law appropriately. I'm also incredibly impressed with the fact that it makes it clear that this covers past and roads. -- Pats and covers past and roads. -- Pats and roads. -- paths. Of course, countryside is not most beautiful in Chester because mine is better.
I went to a festival last weekend and we are talking about paths and we want new paths. They are used want new paths. They are used regularly by dog walkers but it is important to have boundaries. I've been on a farm with a family in the aftermath of a dog attack, and it's been so terrible. Were not here to demonise dog owners. We have so many consider it, sensible, loving dog owners in my constituency. I know she is not here for that either.
We need to make sure that the overall majority of people are left in peace to go about their daily lives, both the farming community and the dog owner community, but to make sure this rural crime is properly prosecuted, and I would like to mention in the course of the debate mention in the course of the debate the fact that GPS test -- theft is another component of crime in my Commissioner has also worked on this.
I would like to get an update on this from the Minister. I'd like to say thank you to the NFU. Also on the Food and Farming Fellowship and have learned a lot from farms in my constituency and would like to thank them for continuing to feed us.
In terms of the bill itself, it's fantastic that we are extending protection to alpacas and llamas, and no one wants to see attacks or worry, and having both of those definitions, both attack and worry, is really important and strengthens the law appropriately. I'm also incredibly impressed with the fact that it makes it clear that this covers past and roads. -- Pats and covers past and roads. -- Pats and roads. -- paths. Of course, countryside is not most beautiful in Chester because mine is better.
I went to a festival last weekend and we are talking about paths and we want new paths. They are used want new paths. They are used regularly by dog walkers but it is important to have boundaries. I've been on a farm with a family in the aftermath of a dog attack, and it's been so terrible. Were not here to demonise dog owners. We have so many consider it, sensible, loving dog owners in my constituency. I know she is not here for that either.
We need to make sure that the overall majority of people are left in peace to go about their daily lives, both the farming community and the dog owner community, but to make sure this rural crime is properly prosecuted, and I would like to mention in the course of the debate mention in the course of the debate the fact that GPS test -- theft is another component of crime in my Commissioner has also worked on this.
I would like to get an update on this from the Minister. I'd like to say thank you to the NFU. Also on the Food and Farming Fellowship and have learned a lot from farms in my constituency and would like to thank them for continuing to feed us.
11:24
Phil Brickell MP (Bolton West, Labour)
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Phil Brickell MP (Bolton West, Labour)
I rise today to support the bill and I commend the honourable member for Chester South and Eddisbury for bringing it here to Parliament. I wanted just to make some brief remarks about what is sometimes perceived as a tension between those who wish to responsibly enjoy the countryside and clearly the detrimental harm that can be caused by livestock worrying and both the economic toll and the harm to livestock that the honourable member has mentioned. Since being elected to this place, I have been a very strong champion for expanding what my friend, the member for Northampton South has mentioned as the right to roam campaign so access to responsible -- so responsible to responsible -- so responsible access to countryside.
It focuses on that point, to make sure that those of us who wish to go out and enjoy our wonderful countryside, whether that is in Cheshire or whether that is in the wonderful West Pennine Moors in my constituency, most of them want to do so in a responsible way. It is those who do not ensure that their dogs are conducting themselves in a considerate manner who will feel the wrath of the measures contained within this bill today. I must say that I particularly welcome that because there is a balance to be struck between farmers and those who look after livestock in the countryside and those who want to enjoy our great outdoors.
With that in mind, I just wanted to touch on a couple of points, which is the point around extending the provisions to alpacas and llamas which there are a number of in my constituency. They look rather incongruous on the West Pennine Moors but I can assure the house that they are incredibly popular both in terms of the opportunity to walk around the Moors but also for school visits. I also wanted to touch on a couple of points that the Minister made -- may pick up in her remarks about opportunities that present themselves outside the criminal law to push greater responsible enjoyment of the countryside, in particular about increasing investment and promoting awareness of the countryside code.
I'm just going to read out some of the provisions of the code just for awareness. These are principles that everyone in this place can rally around, which are do not feed livestock, horses and wild animals. Do not cause damage or disturbance and leave no trace. Always keep dog under control and make sure that dog waste is bagged and been. To glitter home. I think most importantly to be courteous, be nice and share the space with others. I think that should be the golden thread that runs through all of our time spent in the countryside.
It's worth me putting on the record that the UK ranks lowest of 14 European nations in regards to its nature in regards to its nature And out of 15 nations that have been serving, 11 in terms of physical activity. I think there is a lot of work to be done in terms of providing for access to nature but also enjoyment of it and breaking down some of the barriers and opportunities that exist there. But nevertheless, I must commend the honourable member for Chester South and Eddisbury for bringing this bill forward.
I very much appreciate the concerns that she has raised around livestock worrying and she has been
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a champion for that because ever since you got elected to this place. Thank you. May I start by
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Thank you. May I start by commending my friend, the member for Kingston, for praising her daughter in the chamber. It is very important in the chamber. It is very important to place children. My and Mary --
It focuses on that point, to make sure that those of us who wish to go out and enjoy our wonderful countryside, whether that is in Cheshire or whether that is in the wonderful West Pennine Moors in my constituency, most of them want to do so in a responsible way. It is those who do not ensure that their dogs are conducting themselves in a considerate manner who will feel the wrath of the measures contained within this bill today. I must say that I particularly welcome that because there is a balance to be struck between farmers and those who look after livestock in the countryside and those who want to enjoy our great outdoors.
With that in mind, I just wanted to touch on a couple of points, which is the point around extending the provisions to alpacas and llamas which there are a number of in my constituency. They look rather incongruous on the West Pennine Moors but I can assure the house that they are incredibly popular both in terms of the opportunity to walk around the Moors but also for school visits. I also wanted to touch on a couple of points that the Minister made -- may pick up in her remarks about opportunities that present themselves outside the criminal law to push greater responsible enjoyment of the countryside, in particular about increasing investment and promoting awareness of the countryside code.
I'm just going to read out some of the provisions of the code just for awareness. These are principles that everyone in this place can rally around, which are do not feed livestock, horses and wild animals. Do not cause damage or disturbance and leave no trace. Always keep dog under control and make sure that dog waste is bagged and been. To glitter home. I think most importantly to be courteous, be nice and share the space with others. I think that should be the golden thread that runs through all of our time spent in the countryside.
It's worth me putting on the record that the UK ranks lowest of 14 European nations in regards to its nature in regards to its nature And out of 15 nations that have been serving, 11 in terms of physical activity. I think there is a lot of work to be done in terms of providing for access to nature but also enjoyment of it and breaking down some of the barriers and opportunities that exist there. But nevertheless, I must commend the honourable member for Chester South and Eddisbury for bringing this bill forward.
I very much appreciate the concerns that she has raised around livestock worrying and she has been
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a champion for that because ever since you got elected to this place. Thank you. May I start by
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Thank you. May I start by commending my friend, the member for Kingston, for praising her daughter in the chamber. It is very important in the chamber. It is very important to place children. My and Mary --
11:28
John Grady MP (Glasgow East, Labour)
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John Grady MP (Glasgow East, Labour)
to place children. My and Mary -- auntie Mary would always emphasise to me how important was to give children confidence in their abilities and their qualities. I mentioned, obviously, we were talking about dogs earlier and David Hockney. I would like to mention Elizabeth Blackadder who is a fine printmaker from Glasgow, one of the finest artists in the united kingdom responsible for reviving printmaking in Scotland. There is currently an exhibition from Tron Gate -- intron gate in Glasgow currently by artists with disabilities.
It is a beautiful exhibition. This bill does not apply exhibition. This bill does not apply to Scotland because this is devolved to Scotland. It is an important issue in Scotland and there has been some discussion in Scotland about the lack of prosecutions for this sort of offence. I think it is very, very important that these offences are prosecuted. Farming is a very important part of the British economy and Scottish economy. I know this will because, as a complete Tony, who gets very uncomfortable when there is a lack of cars and motor race, I married into a family of farmers.
My wife's family are dairy farmers on the Solway Firth. Sheep farming is very important and can be. I don't think my lovely father-in-law, Andrew, is particularly impressed with my farming abilities. He generally thinks I'm incompetent in the farming area. I think after 22 years of marriage -- 23 years of marriage, I think he thinks I'm all right as a husband and father, but have not checked this week. Now, my wife's checked this week.
Now, my wife's Were Were sheep Were sheep farmers. Were sheep farmers. It Were sheep farmers. It is Were sheep farmers. It is a Were sheep farmers. It is a very difficult thing to do. Have to get up early, have to look after the animals coming up to protect the animals, you have to pay that vet bills. It is a tough job and I don't think we should estimate -- underestimate how important this bill is. It supports farmers and takes into account their concerns. These are tough jobs and farmers are stewards of the countryside.
Obviously, Glasgow is the most beautiful place in the world but I don't want to get into a dispute about where the most beautiful place in Cheshire is because Cheshire is very beautiful. Farmers are important for stewarding the countryside and it is so important to us. Farmers are important for the British economy, not just for firms themselves but we have brilliant farmers who help supply restaurants, help supply shops and create the great revival of the British cooking and cuisine that we have seen in our So this bill, by way of background, is very important, and I do hope the Scottish government looks at this bill carefully and perhaps review the lack of prosecution of these offences.
I should say something of the bill itself, because this is a very important bill. There are important constitutional aspect of this, but it doesn't cover Scotland. But clause two is very important. There is limited scope for the police to seize dogs for prolonged periods of time, even when they are causing danger. And it is common, I am afraid, regrettably, and, for dogs that have been seized, to then carry out further attacks, pending the trial of the dog owner.
And therefore, the ability for police to seize dogs for long periods of time will prevent these repeated attacks, and I commend the honourable member for addressing this in clause two, it is an important thing, the honourable member is quite right to do so. Clause three, as a recovering lawyer, I have, at times, had interest in the investigation of crime. Of course, whichever legal system, you have to have sufficient evidence brought in to convince a judge or jury to convict. And rural crime is particular difficult.
The reason for that is self evident, when you think about it. There is a complete -- As a complete Towneley, it has taken me some time to reach
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that point. Yes. My honourable friend refers to
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My honourable friend refers to himself with the description I would apply to myself, but of course, just because we reside in urban areas because we reside in urban areas doesn't in any way mean we are unconcerned about the fortunes of our fellow parliamentarians representing countryside areas, or indeed their communities that play a indeed their communities that play a vital role in sustaining us. The importance of food, very often grown importance of food, very often grown around there, whatever the focus on industry is today, fundamentally, society comes down to can we feed and house ourselves? And COVID and house ourselves? And COVID particularly through drove that point, it is vital.
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point, it is vital. I thank my honourable friend for his intervention, very thoughtful his intervention, very thoughtful and very important point. And I think actually, when one looks at think actually, when one looks at the cities and towns, and the countryside, we all have great countryside, we all have great yearning for the countryside. In fact, my local park, it is a wonderful part, I would commend wonderful part, I would commend everyone to visit, there is a farm which of course houses llamas and alpacas, so this bill protects llamas and alpacas, I will simply point out I would not want to sully this debate with a political point, but the SNP council regularly threaten to close this form.
And it also has some wonderful rose gardens which they do not look after particularly well, which is a real disappointment to my constituents, and they are right to be very disappointed about this. Back to the bill, the investigation of crimes, Madame Deputy Speaker, if I may, the investigation of crimes in the countryside is difficult, there is not lots of people about, no CCTV, very few witnesses, if any. And therefore, it does become difficult to investigate crimes. So clause three, which allows for the collection of forensic evidence, is very, very important.
Because that forensic evidence, I am afraid, will be very important in linking dog to the animal that has been attacked and the owner. The prosecution of these crimes and the bringing of justice to these crimes, these are serious crimes, justice. Again, it is fair to say my honourable friend has dealt with a very important issue here. Improving powers of entry and search, to search for samples, to take impressions, teeth impressions I assume, are very important as well, and extending the powers here is an important thing to do.
Again, it makes investigation of these crimes easier. And it's important that we investigate these crimes, because if you do not, the law sits on a statute book unenforced and un-ignored. And if we don't have the enforcement mechanisms, this is why the honourable lady a right to include these in the bill. We are wasting our time here, we do not want to waste our time, because everyone in this House agrees that cracking down on these terrible crimes is very important.
So, this is an important bill. And I am particularly pleased to see that the bill deals with roads and paths, because having helped, incompetently, utterly incompetently, on many occasions my father-in-law with things like moving animals around, something like my career in the petrochemical industry and putting diesel in a car, it was not always something I was cut out for. Animals can be attacked on roads and paths. And I think it is also right that this is dealt with differently, from worrying livestock.
Finally, Madame Deputy Speaker, as I think I have properly said enough about this bill, I am particularly pleased to see that camelids are protected or to be protected by this legislation. Llamas and alpacas are beautiful animals. We have them, as I mentioned, in the city farm. It recognises the innovation in the agricultural sector, in that the farming sector in Britain does look to move the new products. It of course, alpacas and llamas are not just important as animals, they are also, for example, a very good source of very fine wool for clothes.
And anyone who has been to Peru will have bought a package and post, a lovely soft wool. So, it is important -- Bought alpaca jumpers. It is important that we are developing innovation in the farming industry. I cannot speak highly enough about this bill. And I cannot speak highly enough for the number for Chester South and Eddisbury for bringing this to the House.
It is a beautiful exhibition. This bill does not apply exhibition. This bill does not apply to Scotland because this is devolved to Scotland. It is an important issue in Scotland and there has been some discussion in Scotland about the lack of prosecutions for this sort of offence. I think it is very, very important that these offences are prosecuted. Farming is a very important part of the British economy and Scottish economy. I know this will because, as a complete Tony, who gets very uncomfortable when there is a lack of cars and motor race, I married into a family of farmers.
My wife's family are dairy farmers on the Solway Firth. Sheep farming is very important and can be. I don't think my lovely father-in-law, Andrew, is particularly impressed with my farming abilities. He generally thinks I'm incompetent in the farming area. I think after 22 years of marriage -- 23 years of marriage, I think he thinks I'm all right as a husband and father, but have not checked this week. Now, my wife's checked this week.
Now, my wife's Were Were sheep Were sheep farmers. Were sheep farmers. It Were sheep farmers. It is Were sheep farmers. It is a Were sheep farmers. It is a very difficult thing to do. Have to get up early, have to look after the animals coming up to protect the animals, you have to pay that vet bills. It is a tough job and I don't think we should estimate -- underestimate how important this bill is. It supports farmers and takes into account their concerns. These are tough jobs and farmers are stewards of the countryside.
Obviously, Glasgow is the most beautiful place in the world but I don't want to get into a dispute about where the most beautiful place in Cheshire is because Cheshire is very beautiful. Farmers are important for stewarding the countryside and it is so important to us. Farmers are important for the British economy, not just for firms themselves but we have brilliant farmers who help supply restaurants, help supply shops and create the great revival of the British cooking and cuisine that we have seen in our So this bill, by way of background, is very important, and I do hope the Scottish government looks at this bill carefully and perhaps review the lack of prosecution of these offences.
I should say something of the bill itself, because this is a very important bill. There are important constitutional aspect of this, but it doesn't cover Scotland. But clause two is very important. There is limited scope for the police to seize dogs for prolonged periods of time, even when they are causing danger. And it is common, I am afraid, regrettably, and, for dogs that have been seized, to then carry out further attacks, pending the trial of the dog owner.
And therefore, the ability for police to seize dogs for long periods of time will prevent these repeated attacks, and I commend the honourable member for addressing this in clause two, it is an important thing, the honourable member is quite right to do so. Clause three, as a recovering lawyer, I have, at times, had interest in the investigation of crime. Of course, whichever legal system, you have to have sufficient evidence brought in to convince a judge or jury to convict. And rural crime is particular difficult.
The reason for that is self evident, when you think about it. There is a complete -- As a complete Towneley, it has taken me some time to reach
**** Possible New Speaker ****
that point. Yes. My honourable friend refers to
**** Possible New Speaker ****
My honourable friend refers to himself with the description I would apply to myself, but of course, just because we reside in urban areas because we reside in urban areas doesn't in any way mean we are unconcerned about the fortunes of our fellow parliamentarians representing countryside areas, or indeed their communities that play a indeed their communities that play a vital role in sustaining us. The importance of food, very often grown importance of food, very often grown around there, whatever the focus on industry is today, fundamentally, society comes down to can we feed and house ourselves? And COVID and house ourselves? And COVID particularly through drove that point, it is vital.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
point, it is vital. I thank my honourable friend for his intervention, very thoughtful his intervention, very thoughtful and very important point. And I think actually, when one looks at think actually, when one looks at the cities and towns, and the countryside, we all have great countryside, we all have great yearning for the countryside. In fact, my local park, it is a wonderful part, I would commend wonderful part, I would commend everyone to visit, there is a farm which of course houses llamas and alpacas, so this bill protects llamas and alpacas, I will simply point out I would not want to sully this debate with a political point, but the SNP council regularly threaten to close this form.
And it also has some wonderful rose gardens which they do not look after particularly well, which is a real disappointment to my constituents, and they are right to be very disappointed about this. Back to the bill, the investigation of crimes, Madame Deputy Speaker, if I may, the investigation of crimes in the countryside is difficult, there is not lots of people about, no CCTV, very few witnesses, if any. And therefore, it does become difficult to investigate crimes. So clause three, which allows for the collection of forensic evidence, is very, very important.
Because that forensic evidence, I am afraid, will be very important in linking dog to the animal that has been attacked and the owner. The prosecution of these crimes and the bringing of justice to these crimes, these are serious crimes, justice. Again, it is fair to say my honourable friend has dealt with a very important issue here. Improving powers of entry and search, to search for samples, to take impressions, teeth impressions I assume, are very important as well, and extending the powers here is an important thing to do.
Again, it makes investigation of these crimes easier. And it's important that we investigate these crimes, because if you do not, the law sits on a statute book unenforced and un-ignored. And if we don't have the enforcement mechanisms, this is why the honourable lady a right to include these in the bill. We are wasting our time here, we do not want to waste our time, because everyone in this House agrees that cracking down on these terrible crimes is very important.
So, this is an important bill. And I am particularly pleased to see that the bill deals with roads and paths, because having helped, incompetently, utterly incompetently, on many occasions my father-in-law with things like moving animals around, something like my career in the petrochemical industry and putting diesel in a car, it was not always something I was cut out for. Animals can be attacked on roads and paths. And I think it is also right that this is dealt with differently, from worrying livestock.
Finally, Madame Deputy Speaker, as I think I have properly said enough about this bill, I am particularly pleased to see that camelids are protected or to be protected by this legislation. Llamas and alpacas are beautiful animals. We have them, as I mentioned, in the city farm. It recognises the innovation in the agricultural sector, in that the farming sector in Britain does look to move the new products. It of course, alpacas and llamas are not just important as animals, they are also, for example, a very good source of very fine wool for clothes.
And anyone who has been to Peru will have bought a package and post, a lovely soft wool. So, it is important -- Bought alpaca jumpers. It is important that we are developing innovation in the farming industry. I cannot speak highly enough about this bill. And I cannot speak highly enough for the number for Chester South and Eddisbury for bringing this to the House.
11:38
Peter Lamb MP (Crawley, Labour)
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Peter Lamb MP (Crawley, Labour)
Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. Can I, as members of the House who have spoken so far, express my congratulations to the Member for Chester South and Eddisbury. As my honourable friend was setting out for Glasgow East, in his speech, we are, in Crawley, an urban constituency. On the plus side, it means I get to avoid the general Over who has the best rural constituency, we have the best urban constituency for we are not known for our fans in Crawley, to be honest, fairly tight boundaries around town.
But we do actually have farms in the town, which often surprises people, because the safeguarded land between the urban area of the town at the airport is currently only usable as agricultural land, we are not allowed to build anything else there, which we will take up with ministers in due course, to help release that, for much-needed
**** Possible New Speaker ****
economic housing space. I thank the honourable member for giving way. Does he agree with me that it is vital, having farms in a built-up setting, to give that connection between those who perhaps do not have the good fortune of getting out into the countryside, to getting out into the countryside, to understand how crucial farming is to this country as a whole, but also, frankly, to be able to go about a giant livestock in a responsible
**** Possible New Speaker ****
manner. I would agree with my honourable
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I would agree with my honourable friend. Having come I think, any form of green space in close box form of green space in close box empty the people is vital, there is empty the people is vital, there is research shown, we are going on to talk about the space industry soon, research taken by those involved in the space industry goes to show the huge psychological boost green huge psychological boost green presents to people, just being physically in close proximity to these things.
It is, of course, worth bearing in mind that farming worth bearing in mind that farming itself is not necessarily the best representation. I do worry sometimes representation. I do worry sometimes in this place, when we get into conversations around housing developments, all too often people too obsessed with the notion that Britain is supposed to be a land of rolling fields, the reality is that this country was densely forested areas, which the green fields of had to have substantial amounts of biodiversity removed.
We believe we should look at these as greenfield land or brownfield land, on the basis that actually, this is not what Natural England is supposed to look like. In fact, the new housing development in many cases will have greater levels of biodiversity. But nonetheless, integrating farming along the sides of industry, I think is an important part of developing well-rounded communities. I am familiar with these farms, in part, because when I was a member of West Sussex County Council, many years ago, not many years ago enough from my particular experiences of being a county councillor, but one of the investments we undertook during that time was to buy one of those farms, which was viewed as being a fantastic idea, on the basis that that land would come in due course, be developed into a runway and would make absolute killing out of it.To say, even if the process comes forward right now, that would still be farmland, that is not what the proposed runway is.
There was a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
number of the county investments, it has not played out as they plan. I will. The National Wealth Fund, which
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The National Wealth Fund, which is something the government is focusing on building, to be fair, on work carried out by the previous administration, is a real focus on helping local authorities make sense helping local authorities make sense of investments. Would my honourable of investments. Would my honourable friend agree with me, that given the friend agree with me, that given the other ones, the interest rates from Hammersmith and Fulham back in the day, that that is a very sensible objective of the National Wealth Fund?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Fund? I am sure we will be speaking to
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I am sure we will be speaking to the bill which is the protection of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
livestock. I will go back to it, just to address the honourable member's address the honourable member's point, having been a local authority leader for quite some time, the pressure on councils, if their income is being reduced in other income is being reduced in other forms to make those other investments, they absolutely have to do that, but there are clearly many lessons that had to be learned from lessons that had to be learned from that and I very much hope there will be far better opportunities for public money.
But if members will please allow me to get back to the please allow me to get back to the substance of the bill. I will be proceeding with all due haste. Nonetheless, we are surrounded, consequently, the issues that affect these areas affect my constituents. Within the constituency itself though, livestock is based, and my experience around all the issues addressed in this bill stems much more actually from one of the towns main parks, where we have the nature main parks, where we have the nature centre.
It is actually just been rebranded as a zoo, but for a long time, it was the Nature and Rare Breeds Centre, where I have spent many happy a year, in various capacities, it is where I got married, that was a high point. It is where I was bitten by a turkey at the age of two, that was a low point! I am sure it all balances out in the long run, in my head. I am sure we don't have any alpacas or llamas there, we are supposed to be rolling out new country exhibits as time goes on, but I'm reminded that, of course, they are no laughing matter, alpacas and llamas.
The Iain Mackay empire, never develop the wheel, the entirety of the empire was built off the back of alpacas and llamas. And their animal worthy of great respect. What they do have their is sheep and cows. And we had some pretty harrowing cases of what happened to that livestock in the centre, on one case, she was set on fire while still alive. I think some of the mentality that goes into disrespecting these animals is worthy of note. -- A sheet was set on fire.
I quite often, we have had dogs set on these animals, or at least people have not been able, they had to remove the sheep entirely, on the basis of that. In fact, bit further than that because the owners that own the park, consequently to deal with this, it was not just around that area but around the main lake in that area, we kept finding cygnets and baby ducklings were being mauled by dogs that have come off leeches leashes, so we took the decision to implement something to allow the dogs around those areas to try and reduce the risk to other animals, and I will be honest and say it wasn't well received we are consulting on it now, and I think cuts are the big problems around this issue, people love dogs, they love their own dog, the dog would never possibly do anything wrong, and in the overwhelming majority of cases, I am certain they are right about that.
But there will always be situations with an animal where you are not going to be in control of something happens, and as a result, others pay the price, where we lose animals in these areas. And despite having voluntary provisions in these areas, that is insufficient to the task, to try and require people to keep their dogs under control. You needed to be pretty much all the cases, you cannot deal with the odd exception. I think it's important as a result of this bill, does put in place provisions which will enable the police to act and take appropriate action to be able to monitor and investigate and resolve situations where this is taking place.
And it's important, I think, where resources have been in place. We have a habit I think sometimes we will produce the recollections around these things, but if you don't allocate the resource, you are not actually producing a better outcome. I think there is a big concern of mine in particular, if you create laws you do not enforce, what you are actually encouraging is lawlessness. We should allocate or have sufficient regulation that we are prepared to enforce. In order to maintain the value and meaning of While the impact upon the livestock While the impact upon the livestock themselves is tragic when these instances occur, this is fundamentally and this is the point I was making to my honourable friend, it is a matter of clicks as well.
This is an industry, it is people's livelihoods. The operators we are now well aware from debates that have taken place over the course of the last year on extreme tight margins. But we cannot afford the kind of losses this kind of abuse can have. As an impact. It is important to have systems of regulation in place to operate effectively into the future. It is not simply about what happens to not simply about what happens to them. Agriculture is a matter of national security for all of us.
The lessons of this, we have had to learn as an island many times. As a country we have always had to import some food overseas. That has been linked back to the Neolithic age. When we imported from Scandinavia. The impact on society as a whole The impact on society as a whole from World War II was very clear when it disrupted the trade system empire and the impact on convoys, the sailors putting their lives at risk to ensure people would be able to survive.
The efforts this country made both at the time with the grow your own campaigns but also the efforts that have been made since to try and create a large number of agricultural sector make a large enough agricultural sector in the UK that will always be able to feed our population. It ensures the market fluctuates and drives people out of business. And we should continue it to operate to some level of this today. As was driven home to us on national security and the impact especially during COVID and the attention we gave to people working in the agricultural sector and we designated them as key workers.
I think it is regrettable as a society we have progressed from this and these people are agriculture a far more fundamental in our day-to-day lives than people in society wish to promote. We need to support these industries to be able to thrive. In summary, I would agree with the proposal set out in this bill. I have condensed my speech at the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
fastest possible pace to make that point. I caught shadow Minister.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I caught shadow Minister. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to thank my honourable friend for Chester South and Eddisbury for introducing this bill which has introducing this bill which has enjoyed such wide support across the House. The honourable member for Northampton South reminded us of the Northampton South reminded us of the need to keep control of dogs on path and country lanes. The member for and country lanes. The member for Congleton stressed how important these improved protections are for her farmers as indeed they are for
But we do actually have farms in the town, which often surprises people, because the safeguarded land between the urban area of the town at the airport is currently only usable as agricultural land, we are not allowed to build anything else there, which we will take up with ministers in due course, to help release that, for much-needed
**** Possible New Speaker ****
economic housing space. I thank the honourable member for giving way. Does he agree with me that it is vital, having farms in a built-up setting, to give that connection between those who perhaps do not have the good fortune of getting out into the countryside, to getting out into the countryside, to understand how crucial farming is to this country as a whole, but also, frankly, to be able to go about a giant livestock in a responsible
**** Possible New Speaker ****
manner. I would agree with my honourable
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I would agree with my honourable friend. Having come I think, any form of green space in close box form of green space in close box empty the people is vital, there is empty the people is vital, there is research shown, we are going on to talk about the space industry soon, research taken by those involved in the space industry goes to show the huge psychological boost green huge psychological boost green presents to people, just being physically in close proximity to these things.
It is, of course, worth bearing in mind that farming worth bearing in mind that farming itself is not necessarily the best representation. I do worry sometimes representation. I do worry sometimes in this place, when we get into conversations around housing developments, all too often people too obsessed with the notion that Britain is supposed to be a land of rolling fields, the reality is that this country was densely forested areas, which the green fields of had to have substantial amounts of biodiversity removed.
We believe we should look at these as greenfield land or brownfield land, on the basis that actually, this is not what Natural England is supposed to look like. In fact, the new housing development in many cases will have greater levels of biodiversity. But nonetheless, integrating farming along the sides of industry, I think is an important part of developing well-rounded communities. I am familiar with these farms, in part, because when I was a member of West Sussex County Council, many years ago, not many years ago enough from my particular experiences of being a county councillor, but one of the investments we undertook during that time was to buy one of those farms, which was viewed as being a fantastic idea, on the basis that that land would come in due course, be developed into a runway and would make absolute killing out of it.To say, even if the process comes forward right now, that would still be farmland, that is not what the proposed runway is.
There was a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
number of the county investments, it has not played out as they plan. I will. The National Wealth Fund, which
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The National Wealth Fund, which is something the government is focusing on building, to be fair, on work carried out by the previous administration, is a real focus on helping local authorities make sense helping local authorities make sense of investments. Would my honourable of investments. Would my honourable friend agree with me, that given the friend agree with me, that given the other ones, the interest rates from Hammersmith and Fulham back in the day, that that is a very sensible objective of the National Wealth Fund?
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Fund? I am sure we will be speaking to
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I am sure we will be speaking to the bill which is the protection of
**** Possible New Speaker ****
livestock. I will go back to it, just to address the honourable member's address the honourable member's point, having been a local authority leader for quite some time, the pressure on councils, if their income is being reduced in other income is being reduced in other forms to make those other investments, they absolutely have to do that, but there are clearly many lessons that had to be learned from lessons that had to be learned from that and I very much hope there will be far better opportunities for public money.
But if members will please allow me to get back to the please allow me to get back to the substance of the bill. I will be proceeding with all due haste. Nonetheless, we are surrounded, consequently, the issues that affect these areas affect my constituents. Within the constituency itself though, livestock is based, and my experience around all the issues addressed in this bill stems much more actually from one of the towns main parks, where we have the nature main parks, where we have the nature centre.
It is actually just been rebranded as a zoo, but for a long time, it was the Nature and Rare Breeds Centre, where I have spent many happy a year, in various capacities, it is where I got married, that was a high point. It is where I was bitten by a turkey at the age of two, that was a low point! I am sure it all balances out in the long run, in my head. I am sure we don't have any alpacas or llamas there, we are supposed to be rolling out new country exhibits as time goes on, but I'm reminded that, of course, they are no laughing matter, alpacas and llamas.
The Iain Mackay empire, never develop the wheel, the entirety of the empire was built off the back of alpacas and llamas. And their animal worthy of great respect. What they do have their is sheep and cows. And we had some pretty harrowing cases of what happened to that livestock in the centre, on one case, she was set on fire while still alive. I think some of the mentality that goes into disrespecting these animals is worthy of note. -- A sheet was set on fire.
I quite often, we have had dogs set on these animals, or at least people have not been able, they had to remove the sheep entirely, on the basis of that. In fact, bit further than that because the owners that own the park, consequently to deal with this, it was not just around that area but around the main lake in that area, we kept finding cygnets and baby ducklings were being mauled by dogs that have come off leeches leashes, so we took the decision to implement something to allow the dogs around those areas to try and reduce the risk to other animals, and I will be honest and say it wasn't well received we are consulting on it now, and I think cuts are the big problems around this issue, people love dogs, they love their own dog, the dog would never possibly do anything wrong, and in the overwhelming majority of cases, I am certain they are right about that.
But there will always be situations with an animal where you are not going to be in control of something happens, and as a result, others pay the price, where we lose animals in these areas. And despite having voluntary provisions in these areas, that is insufficient to the task, to try and require people to keep their dogs under control. You needed to be pretty much all the cases, you cannot deal with the odd exception. I think it's important as a result of this bill, does put in place provisions which will enable the police to act and take appropriate action to be able to monitor and investigate and resolve situations where this is taking place.
And it's important, I think, where resources have been in place. We have a habit I think sometimes we will produce the recollections around these things, but if you don't allocate the resource, you are not actually producing a better outcome. I think there is a big concern of mine in particular, if you create laws you do not enforce, what you are actually encouraging is lawlessness. We should allocate or have sufficient regulation that we are prepared to enforce. In order to maintain the value and meaning of While the impact upon the livestock While the impact upon the livestock themselves is tragic when these instances occur, this is fundamentally and this is the point I was making to my honourable friend, it is a matter of clicks as well.
This is an industry, it is people's livelihoods. The operators we are now well aware from debates that have taken place over the course of the last year on extreme tight margins. But we cannot afford the kind of losses this kind of abuse can have. As an impact. It is important to have systems of regulation in place to operate effectively into the future. It is not simply about what happens to not simply about what happens to them. Agriculture is a matter of national security for all of us.
The lessons of this, we have had to learn as an island many times. As a country we have always had to import some food overseas. That has been linked back to the Neolithic age. When we imported from Scandinavia. The impact on society as a whole The impact on society as a whole from World War II was very clear when it disrupted the trade system empire and the impact on convoys, the sailors putting their lives at risk to ensure people would be able to survive.
The efforts this country made both at the time with the grow your own campaigns but also the efforts that have been made since to try and create a large number of agricultural sector make a large enough agricultural sector in the UK that will always be able to feed our population. It ensures the market fluctuates and drives people out of business. And we should continue it to operate to some level of this today. As was driven home to us on national security and the impact especially during COVID and the attention we gave to people working in the agricultural sector and we designated them as key workers.
I think it is regrettable as a society we have progressed from this and these people are agriculture a far more fundamental in our day-to-day lives than people in society wish to promote. We need to support these industries to be able to thrive. In summary, I would agree with the proposal set out in this bill. I have condensed my speech at the
**** Possible New Speaker ****
fastest possible pace to make that point. I caught shadow Minister.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I caught shadow Minister. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to thank my honourable friend for Chester South and Eddisbury for introducing this bill which has introducing this bill which has enjoyed such wide support across the House. The honourable member for Northampton South reminded us of the Northampton South reminded us of the need to keep control of dogs on path and country lanes. The member for and country lanes. The member for Congleton stressed how important these improved protections are for her farmers as indeed they are for
11:50
Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)
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Sir Ashley Fox MP (Bridgwater, Conservative)
her farmers as indeed they are for the sum -- the farmers in Somerset. The honourable members for Bolton West emphasise the need for responsible access to the countryside and I agree with him. And the honourable member for Glasgow East told us of the need for strengthened police powers. The honourable member for Crawley took us on a gentle country ramble in his speech. He told us his constituency is entirely urban and he knows little of farming. Well let me tell him not to worry.
Because he is clearly eminently qualified to be Labour's next Secretary of State for, food and rural affairs. He could scarcely know less or do worse than the current incumbent. I also want to pay tribute to those groups who have long championed this reform. They include the National sheep Association, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals cruelty to animals, the British veterinary Association, the National Farmers' Union and the APPG for animal welfare. As I have already mentioned once today Britain is invention -- is a nation of animal lovers and conservatives are proud of our level of record in government of improving Britain's world leading position on animal welfare.
This follows that tradition because livestock is a blight on our countryside and a blight on our farmers. In a recent survey by the National sheep Association 87% of respondents said they had experienced a dog attack on their lifestyle like livestock in the past 12 months. One in 20 of those respondents said they had experienced between 10 and 30 such attacks. Which is truly appalling. These attacks cause distress and injury to livestock and in the most extreme cases, they can cause the death of animals.
This is not only traumatic for farmers but it can be expensive too. NFU Mutual data shows insurance claims for dog attacks on farm animals exceeded £1.8 million in 2023. Farmers have enough to worry about with this government's new family farm tax without the additional burden of attacks on their livestock like dogs. This bill makes several improvements to the existing law. Firstly it introduces a vital distinction between livestock worrying and attacking. This chain will help strengthen enforcement where serious harm has occurred.
Clause 2 expands police powers to cease dogs Maxis dogs they believe have been reasonably involved in such offences. This important amendment serves to close important legal loopholes and ensure swift police action to prevent further harm. Clause 3 empowers police and veterinary professionals to take samples or impression from wounded animals or suspected dogs to aid criminal investigations. This change will make it significantly easier to gather evidence and bring charges. The National Farmers' Union has rightly championed this measure.
Noting many livestock wearing incidents -- worrying incidents go unnoticed due to lack of confidence enforcement. enforcement.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The possibility of losing DNA testing -- the possibility of using DNA testing could be successful for prosecution. I urge the government prosecution. I urge the government to support further research and work with police forces to implement the results. Clause 4 allows officers results. Clause 4 allows officers with a warrant to search properties for dogs believed to be involved in an attack. This is a crucial power an attack. This is a crucial power to ensure justice is served and will help end the widespread perception among farmers that little can be among farmers that little can be done once an attack occurs.
Another done once an attack occurs. Another major improvement is the inclusion of roads and public path within the legislation scope. Livestock often legislation scope. Livestock often move between fields using country lanes. Under current rules if an lanes. Under current rules if an animal is attacked outside the field the burden unfairly falls on the the burden unfairly falls on the farmer. This bill corrects that and rightly places responsibility on dog rightly places responsibility on dog owners to always control their pets. Near livestock.
The bill broadens Near livestock. The bill broadens the definition of livestock to include animals such as alpacas and llamas who are increasingly part of rural enterprises. I welcome this clause particularly, especially behalf of establishments such as the animal adventure park in my constituency. This bill brings in many essential if -- enforcement powers that allow our police to crackdown on worrying incidents but we must not forget about prevention. Responsible dog ownership is key. The previous government working group brought together police, stakeholders and welfare organisations to improve education on how to keep pets and livestock say.
In Wales a 64% drop in livestock worrying incidents between 2023 and 2024 has been credited to outreach campaign, dog training courses and affective rural teams. We must continue amplifying educational messages like those in the country code. I would like to call on the government to make sure it continues its vital work and to look at how we might further encourage responsible dog ownership. As an MP with a large farming community I have seen firsthand how livestock worrying impact my constituents.
I recently met Austin Nokia who farms in my constituency. He told me he struggles with irresponsible owners allowing their dogs off Leeds, on public footpaths through his fields. Treating them like recreation grounds. And worrying his sheep. I know this new bill will be a comfort to him and those like him. And we are acting to shift the burden of responsibility to the dog owners. I am pleased to have supported this bill since it started and through committee. It is a pleasure to stand here at the Dispatch Box and confirm on behalf of the opposition we support the bill in full.
I urge colleagues around the House to support this bill and to bring an end to the scourge of livestock worrying in our rural communities.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Minister. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a privilege to speak at the third reading debate. I express my third reading debate. I express my gratitude to the member for Chester for taking this bill through the bill. I really was not going to get
Because he is clearly eminently qualified to be Labour's next Secretary of State for, food and rural affairs. He could scarcely know less or do worse than the current incumbent. I also want to pay tribute to those groups who have long championed this reform. They include the National sheep Association, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals cruelty to animals, the British veterinary Association, the National Farmers' Union and the APPG for animal welfare. As I have already mentioned once today Britain is invention -- is a nation of animal lovers and conservatives are proud of our level of record in government of improving Britain's world leading position on animal welfare.
This follows that tradition because livestock is a blight on our countryside and a blight on our farmers. In a recent survey by the National sheep Association 87% of respondents said they had experienced a dog attack on their lifestyle like livestock in the past 12 months. One in 20 of those respondents said they had experienced between 10 and 30 such attacks. Which is truly appalling. These attacks cause distress and injury to livestock and in the most extreme cases, they can cause the death of animals.
This is not only traumatic for farmers but it can be expensive too. NFU Mutual data shows insurance claims for dog attacks on farm animals exceeded £1.8 million in 2023. Farmers have enough to worry about with this government's new family farm tax without the additional burden of attacks on their livestock like dogs. This bill makes several improvements to the existing law. Firstly it introduces a vital distinction between livestock worrying and attacking. This chain will help strengthen enforcement where serious harm has occurred.
Clause 2 expands police powers to cease dogs Maxis dogs they believe have been reasonably involved in such offences. This important amendment serves to close important legal loopholes and ensure swift police action to prevent further harm. Clause 3 empowers police and veterinary professionals to take samples or impression from wounded animals or suspected dogs to aid criminal investigations. This change will make it significantly easier to gather evidence and bring charges. The National Farmers' Union has rightly championed this measure.
Noting many livestock wearing incidents -- worrying incidents go unnoticed due to lack of confidence enforcement. enforcement.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
The possibility of losing DNA testing -- the possibility of using DNA testing could be successful for prosecution. I urge the government prosecution. I urge the government to support further research and work with police forces to implement the results. Clause 4 allows officers results. Clause 4 allows officers with a warrant to search properties for dogs believed to be involved in an attack. This is a crucial power an attack. This is a crucial power to ensure justice is served and will help end the widespread perception among farmers that little can be among farmers that little can be done once an attack occurs.
Another done once an attack occurs. Another major improvement is the inclusion of roads and public path within the legislation scope. Livestock often legislation scope. Livestock often move between fields using country lanes. Under current rules if an lanes. Under current rules if an animal is attacked outside the field the burden unfairly falls on the the burden unfairly falls on the farmer. This bill corrects that and rightly places responsibility on dog rightly places responsibility on dog owners to always control their pets. Near livestock.
The bill broadens Near livestock. The bill broadens the definition of livestock to include animals such as alpacas and llamas who are increasingly part of rural enterprises. I welcome this clause particularly, especially behalf of establishments such as the animal adventure park in my constituency. This bill brings in many essential if -- enforcement powers that allow our police to crackdown on worrying incidents but we must not forget about prevention. Responsible dog ownership is key. The previous government working group brought together police, stakeholders and welfare organisations to improve education on how to keep pets and livestock say.
In Wales a 64% drop in livestock worrying incidents between 2023 and 2024 has been credited to outreach campaign, dog training courses and affective rural teams. We must continue amplifying educational messages like those in the country code. I would like to call on the government to make sure it continues its vital work and to look at how we might further encourage responsible dog ownership. As an MP with a large farming community I have seen firsthand how livestock worrying impact my constituents.
I recently met Austin Nokia who farms in my constituency. He told me he struggles with irresponsible owners allowing their dogs off Leeds, on public footpaths through his fields. Treating them like recreation grounds. And worrying his sheep. I know this new bill will be a comfort to him and those like him. And we are acting to shift the burden of responsibility to the dog owners. I am pleased to have supported this bill since it started and through committee. It is a pleasure to stand here at the Dispatch Box and confirm on behalf of the opposition we support the bill in full.
I urge colleagues around the House to support this bill and to bring an end to the scourge of livestock worrying in our rural communities.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
Minister. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a privilege to speak at the third reading debate. I express my third reading debate. I express my gratitude to the member for Chester for taking this bill through the bill. I really was not going to get
11:57
Emma Hardy MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
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Emma Hardy MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Kingston upon Hull West and Haltemprice, Labour)
bill. I really was not going to get party political today on this day of unity we are all in so much agreement however the honourable gentleman has prompted me and who am I to turn away such an invitation. When prompted. It is marvellous he thinks this bill is such a good idea and he is so fully supportive of it. I would just gently suggest the honourable gentleman, there were 14 years in which they had the opportunity to support bills like this and indeed such as the bill came -- that came before this debate.
I would also gently say to the honourable gentleman it is also interesting to have a spokesperson stand up to defend the previous government record in terms of DEFRA when we all know what happened to everything a river, lake and sea filled with sewage. I think if we are going to start getting into a discussion about the record of the previous government I am more than happy to have that. However moving back to the tone of unity and support, I would like to thank everyone who contributed in this bill to this stage and everyone who has been involved in the Committee stage.
I have been briefed of how much support was shown for the bill so thank you to all honourable members across the House for their work in doing this. I would like to thank the honourable member for Northampton South for mentioning his memory chip of the NFU food and farming fellowship and support they give. And how he will completely agree, the importance of capturing DNA from dogs and how different that is going to make this in terms of making it more enforceable. And how the importance of needing this to be adopted and developed.
And again I am tempted back into politics am tempted back into politics answer. And again how rural has been neglected under the 14 years of the previous government and we are starting to take this more serially. And my honourable friend, the memo Congleton who again -- member for Congleton who engages frequently with the NFU. I thank her for frequency representing their views and the views of farmers in Parliament and across her constituency. It is important this legislation covers parts and roads as well.
I am not going to get involved in the debate over which is the most beautiful constituency, how could I Madam Deputy Speaker? When you and I already know Yorkshire is God's own county. I would also like to thank my honourable friend, the member for Malton West. -- Bolton West. The having a discussion about responsible access to the countryside. It is crucial when we are outside enjoying the beautiful nature we all obey the countryside code. Hopefully there will be something all members can help to promote across their constituencies, the importance of this.
I mentioned as well dog pool being bagged and binned, which reminds me of when I attended the Filey folk Festival and heard one of the most amusing songs I think I have for a long time about the dog pool tree. This was a song dedicated to all of those people who go on walks, collect the dog pool in the dog pay bag, get towards the end of the walk and then hang the bag on the dog pool tree. So reminding us all we need to bin it and take it away as well as bagged it.
Of course.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
On that point I did the village fair this weekend and I had a pop-up surgery and I just want to say thank surgery and I just want to say thank you to the constituents who told me you to the constituents who told me about the dog pool academic -- epidemic and she asked what the government will do and we will make sure the County Council have the sure the County Council have the powers to do something about it and take action in what is clearly an issue for the residents.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
issue for the residents. I thank my honourable friend. I completely agree. It is incredibly completely agree. It is incredibly unpleasant. It is as always all of these things a minority of people who are doing this. My honourable friend, the member for Glasgow East. I am grateful for the tip on where we should go and visiting Glasgow we should go and visiting Glasgow and visiting the beautiful area. I hope his father-in-law is impressed hope his father-in-law is impressed with his support for this bill if not for his ability as a farmer.
I not for his ability as a farmer. I would like to congratulate him on his 24th wedding anniversary, 23rd his 24th wedding anniversary, 23rd his 24th wedding anniversary, 23rd Congratulations ahead of that. And my honourable friend, the number for Crawley, talking about the Crawley, talking about the psychological boost we get near nature, completely right, it is such a positive feeling to be out in the world and something I was always talking about with my local Yorkshire wildlife group about the importance of tangle, where some people see mess, other people see biodiversity and nature.
And actually, you get the most nature where you get a tangle, different plants growing, you get very little nature where you see a mowed lawn. You get it where you see the weeds, different habitats, you see different areas for species to grow and develop. I am kind of convinced that this is a reason why we do not need to do as much gardening because we are supporting biodiversity and we are supporting the need for tangle. And also, the importance of planting more forest has been mentioned, and how we can raise the amount of biodiversity in new estates, all of which I completely agree with.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank the Minister for getting way. When you mentioned it, I wanted way. When you mentioned it, I wanted to take the opportunity to congratulate Trees for Congleton, who have just planted the 30,003 in who have just planted the 30,003 in Congleton, they set out -- The Congleton, they set out -- The 30,000 tree, they set out to plant these trees and I think it is remarkable.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
remarkable. I join my honourable friend incredulity them, that is an incredible achievement, 30,000 trees, due congratulations, let's hope they keep going. The number of livestock kept in the UK has nearly livestock kept in the UK has nearly The Dogs Protection of Livestock Act 1953 was passed, there has been an increase in dog ownership since then. In 2025 survey, it indicated 96% of respondents had between one 96% of respondents had between one to 10 incidents of sheep worrying in the last 12 months, highlighting the urgent need to modernise the legislation to address this issue.
I legislation to address this issue. I respondents on average reported for sheep deaths per year, by sheep worrying dogs, that is an increase in previous years and one respondent in previous years and one respondent reported 44 sheep killed in a single attack. That doesn't account for the miscarriages of land and other secondary impacts of livestock worrying. The behaviour of dogs that chase, attack or cause stress to livestock, can have devastating outcomes, resulting in injury and death which of course can have a detrimental impact on farmers.
Livestock worrying can also have wider implications, such as land being aborted, flocks of birds being smothered, demonstrating how harmful the incidents can be. It is clear that we need stronger measures to attack livestock worrying at the devastating effects on farmers and livestock this bill would deliver these measures. The government recognises the distress livestock worrying can cause animals and their keepers. All reported crime must be taken seriously. Investigated. And, where appropriate, taken through the courts and meet the appropriate penalties.
This bill amends the dogs protection livestock act 1953, which underpins that livestock worrying offence enforcement, and I would like to underline the three main areas the bill will address, before going into more detail on them themselves. It will modernise the definitions and scope of the livestock worrying offence, by extending the locations where an offence may take place, to include roads and paths, and will expand the species scope to include camelids, which are commonly found. It will strengthen police powers, including powers of entry, the seizure and detention of dogs, and a collection of evidence to improve enforcement and will increase the maximum penalty from a fine of £1000 to an unlimited fine, to act as a deterrent.
These three key areas will strengthen the legislation and deterrence around livestock worrying and attacks on livestock. On scope, the bill will specifically broaden the locations where an offence may take, to include roads and paths. Dogs and dog walkers are commonly found walking on roads and paths and this new measure will help protect livestock where they are being moved. Such as cows going into a milking parlour or sheep being moved across the fields. this is an important new protection from will also protect those being protected by the act, such as camelids like alpacas and llamas, it is estimated there might be as many as 40,000 alpacas owned in England, and 20,000 owned by nonmembers.
The bill amends the wording of the offence of livestock worrying so that attacking livestock is dealt with separately from worrying livestock. Attacking is part of what is more widely described as worrying, in the 1953 act, however, the term worrying can dismiss the severity of some offences. Reframing the act so that attacking is distinct from worrying but highlights the violent nature of incidents involving attacks on livestock. The new police powers would be a huge help to the police. The primary focus of the bill is to strengthen these powers to enable the police to respond to livestock worrying incidents more effectively.
These include extending powers of seizure, modifying entry powers, and introducing a new power to take samples of impressions from livestock and suspected dogs furthermore in the survey carried out by the National Sheep Association 2025, 98% of respondents agreed, which is probably a generally unheard-of to get 98% of people to agree on something, but there is urgent need for additional police powers. The police currently only sate as the purposes of identifying the owner. The police come and have a limited powers at their disposal to address reoffending, when either the same dog is found attacking livestock repeatedly, or, the same owner has several dogs who worry livestock.
Under this bill, if the police have reasonable grounds to believe there is a risk that could attack or worry livestock again, they have the power to seize and detain a dog. The dog can be detained until an investigation has been carried out. Or until the proceedings have been determined or withdrawn. We hope this power will address the issue of reoffending on dog owners who disregard the law, and will help address the most serious incidences of livestock worrying. Secondly, the bill will introduce a power to enable the police to take samples and impressions from a dog or livestock, where they have reasonable grounds to believe the dog has attacked or worry to livestock.
And that simple impressions might provide evidence of the offence for can then be used as evidence to support a prosecution. Samples may be retained either until the police investigation into a potential offence has finished or until court proceedings have finished or being withdrawn from finally, the bill will extend the powers of entry, under current legislation, the police can only enter the premises and purpose of identifying the dog owner. It is to ensure the police can collect the necessary evidence to prosecute these crimes and will extend police powers to allow the police to enter and search a premises with a warrant to seize a dog and take samples from a dog if there are reasonable grounds to believe an offence has been committed.
The expanded powers of entry will allow the police to seize items which may be evidence of an offence. For example, a dog collar or a towel with blood on it. These powers are important for improving conviction rates. In reducing the prevalence of reoffending to protect our respected farmers from the horrific consequence of livestock worrying. By improving enforcement mechanisms to allow the police to deal with and investigate incidents of livestock worrying more effectively, we hope that livestock owners or bystanders will feel encouraged to report more incidents and know that the reports will be taken seriously.
The bill will also increase penalties, the penalty is currently set at a maximum fine of £1000. The maximum penalty will be increased to an unlimited fine to act as a deterrent. The courts will determine an appropriate amount in Sentencing Guidelines, that takes into The seriousness of the offence, and the circumstances of the offender. The courts can also require offender to make financial reparation to the victim for any personal injury, loss or damage resulting from an offence. Compensation may be ordered for such an amount the court considers appropriate, having regard to any evidence, including any representations made by the offender or prosecutor.
There is no limit in the value of a single compensation order handed down to an offender, order handed down to an offender, and the bill will not change this. A survey carried out by the National Farmers' Union 2025 found in England, the Midlands was the worst region by cost, the dog attacks on livestock costing an estimated £425,000, followed by the south- west, which estimated £225,000. Farm animals in the south-east of England are worth an estimated £125,000 were killed, up 23% from the previous year.
The National Sheep Association found that more than half of respondents felt that increased fines punishment and seizure powers will reduce sheep worrying incidents. Of course, many responsible dog walkers enjoy the countryside without incident. And dog owners have a responsibility to ensure that dogs are kept safe and under control. The countryside code highlights that it is best practice to keep dogs on lead around livestock. Visitors should always check local science, as there are locations where you must keep your -- Local science, there are locations where you must keep your dog on a lead.
We recognise there is a careful balance to be struck, and the freedom dog owners enjoy when walking their dogs, and of course, the welfare of these dogs, including the freedom for dogs to exhibit normal behaviours for their welfare. The new police powers that this bill will introduce will ensure that effective response to reported cases are a vital measure for helping improve enforcement and protecting the livelihood of our valuable farming communities. I just want to mention a bit more because countryside access came up.
This bill would cover a scenario where the person in charge of the dog causing it to attack livestock on a road or path, the 1953 act protects livestock that may have strayed from one field to another, if this is agricultural land, as defined in the act, subject to certain exemptions and defences. The countryside code encourages people to check local signs and leave gates as they found them. The guidance highlights the responsibly of landowners to regard way marking &s, such as using them to one road users for things that are not obvious, it is the responsibility of the owner and must take measures to protect livestock and owners of livestock should also take reasonable care to see their livestock does not stray.
And there is a common law duty of anyone who keeps animals in a field next to a road, to take reasonable care in preventing their escape from preventing damage. At this bill focuses on delivering the most impact via the private members bill by improving police powers to investigate and support convictions. In answer to the question of whether it would be an offence not to report, it would not be an offence to fail to report an incident, it will always encourage dog walkers to be responsible in such circumstances by bringing this to the attention of the livestock owner and police ensuring that any injured livestock can receive the care or treatment they need is important for welfare reasons.
It would be very difficult to enforce legal reporting requirements. And in terms of the species being protected, sheep are specifically protected by dogs at large, because they are the most susceptible for stress, in the presence of dogs, and sheep are prone to abort the young when it distress, but primary legislation can be considered in the future to add other species if necessary. And it's a point raised by one of my honourable friends in the countryside code highlights it is best to keep dogs on leads around livestock and we encourage dogs and livestock and we encourage dogs and walkers are kept safe.
The bill will not amend section 12 a of the 1953 act which sets out an exemption to section 12C for guide dogs, therefore the owners of guide dogs will remain exempt from criminal liability if they are at large, infield or closure where there are sheep. However, the offence of chasing or attacking livestock applied to guide dogs and the owner of the guidebook be committing an offence if the dog chased or attack livestock. ultimately it remains a matter for the courts decide what can be considered a guide dog.
So, I recognise the strong public support for animal welfare in this country as reflected in the volume of correspondence received by my department and engagement from stakeholders. Key stakeholders have been engaged in these measures, including the livestock and farming
**** Possible New Speaker ****
sector, animal welfare, police and veterinary sectors, of course. Very grateful to the Minister for giving way, and I apologise for the response for this bill, for being late, I hope to be here earlier. Can I ask the Minister on a particular I ask the Minister on a particular point, she talked about the importance of animal welfare, around the country, not least she knows in Newcastle-under-Lyme, can you give a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
flavour of when the government will publish the animal welfare strategy. I thank my honourable friend for his intervention and I hate to give his intervention and I hate to give him a parliamentary answer, in due course. He will have to forgive me on this matter. Of course, as illustrated by the two bills, Madame illustrated by the two bills, Madame Deputy Speaker, we have taken through Parliament this morning and the actions we have done in our first year, we have passed, very first year, we have passed, very committed to animal welfare, it is of huge importance to the country, we have heard in this debate, we are we have heard in this debate, we are a nation of animal lovers and have a a nation of animal lovers and have a caring nation, we will not revisit the names of all our pets from the previous debates, but we generally have a kind of coalition, but one of have a kind of coalition, but one of my favourite moments, one of my events in parliament, when there was events in parliament, when there was the dog competition, which is more fiercely thought fourth and some by-elections, which dog makes it the most popular across the House.
The depth of concern on this issue has once again been evident in today's debate. The government is therefore fully committed to supporting this important bill as it progresses through the other place. This government was elected on a mandate to introduce plans for animal welfare in a generation. The Department initiated a series of meetings Vicky animal welfare stakeholders as part of the developed of an overarching approach to animal welfare them asserting our commitment to improving animal welfare across the board at the Prime Minister has committed to publishing animal welfare strategy I would like to thank all honourable members across the House for the engagement and constructive comments and once again I am also grateful to the support for farmers, welfare stakeholders, police and others who welcome the bill.
This bill will make a lasting impact of those affected by livestock worrying and I am delighted to support this bill. I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
thank the honourable lady and I look forward to seeing it part of the statute book. With Leader of the House I call
**** Possible New Speaker ****
With Leader of the House I call the member to windup.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
the member to windup. With the leave of the House may I take this opportunity to thank the take this opportunity to thank the Minister for the majority of her remarks although of course we do disagree about the Conservative record on animal welfare. I thank record on animal welfare. I thank her for her personal support and the government for that support for this government for that support for this bill. I would like to pass on my bill. I would like to pass on my thanks to a number of people who have contributed to this bill.
This bill commenced its journey in the last Parliament as a Private Members
I would also gently say to the honourable gentleman it is also interesting to have a spokesperson stand up to defend the previous government record in terms of DEFRA when we all know what happened to everything a river, lake and sea filled with sewage. I think if we are going to start getting into a discussion about the record of the previous government I am more than happy to have that. However moving back to the tone of unity and support, I would like to thank everyone who contributed in this bill to this stage and everyone who has been involved in the Committee stage.
I have been briefed of how much support was shown for the bill so thank you to all honourable members across the House for their work in doing this. I would like to thank the honourable member for Northampton South for mentioning his memory chip of the NFU food and farming fellowship and support they give. And how he will completely agree, the importance of capturing DNA from dogs and how different that is going to make this in terms of making it more enforceable. And how the importance of needing this to be adopted and developed.
And again I am tempted back into politics am tempted back into politics answer. And again how rural has been neglected under the 14 years of the previous government and we are starting to take this more serially. And my honourable friend, the memo Congleton who again -- member for Congleton who engages frequently with the NFU. I thank her for frequency representing their views and the views of farmers in Parliament and across her constituency. It is important this legislation covers parts and roads as well.
I am not going to get involved in the debate over which is the most beautiful constituency, how could I Madam Deputy Speaker? When you and I already know Yorkshire is God's own county. I would also like to thank my honourable friend, the member for Malton West. -- Bolton West. The having a discussion about responsible access to the countryside. It is crucial when we are outside enjoying the beautiful nature we all obey the countryside code. Hopefully there will be something all members can help to promote across their constituencies, the importance of this.
I mentioned as well dog pool being bagged and binned, which reminds me of when I attended the Filey folk Festival and heard one of the most amusing songs I think I have for a long time about the dog pool tree. This was a song dedicated to all of those people who go on walks, collect the dog pool in the dog pay bag, get towards the end of the walk and then hang the bag on the dog pool tree. So reminding us all we need to bin it and take it away as well as bagged it.
Of course.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
On that point I did the village fair this weekend and I had a pop-up surgery and I just want to say thank surgery and I just want to say thank you to the constituents who told me you to the constituents who told me about the dog pool academic -- epidemic and she asked what the government will do and we will make sure the County Council have the sure the County Council have the powers to do something about it and take action in what is clearly an issue for the residents.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
issue for the residents. I thank my honourable friend. I completely agree. It is incredibly completely agree. It is incredibly unpleasant. It is as always all of these things a minority of people who are doing this. My honourable friend, the member for Glasgow East. I am grateful for the tip on where we should go and visiting Glasgow we should go and visiting Glasgow and visiting the beautiful area. I hope his father-in-law is impressed hope his father-in-law is impressed with his support for this bill if not for his ability as a farmer.
I not for his ability as a farmer. I would like to congratulate him on his 24th wedding anniversary, 23rd his 24th wedding anniversary, 23rd his 24th wedding anniversary, 23rd Congratulations ahead of that. And my honourable friend, the number for Crawley, talking about the Crawley, talking about the psychological boost we get near nature, completely right, it is such a positive feeling to be out in the world and something I was always talking about with my local Yorkshire wildlife group about the importance of tangle, where some people see mess, other people see biodiversity and nature.
And actually, you get the most nature where you get a tangle, different plants growing, you get very little nature where you see a mowed lawn. You get it where you see the weeds, different habitats, you see different areas for species to grow and develop. I am kind of convinced that this is a reason why we do not need to do as much gardening because we are supporting biodiversity and we are supporting the need for tangle. And also, the importance of planting more forest has been mentioned, and how we can raise the amount of biodiversity in new estates, all of which I completely agree with.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
I thank the Minister for getting way. When you mentioned it, I wanted way. When you mentioned it, I wanted to take the opportunity to congratulate Trees for Congleton, who have just planted the 30,003 in who have just planted the 30,003 in Congleton, they set out -- The Congleton, they set out -- The 30,000 tree, they set out to plant these trees and I think it is remarkable.
**** Possible New Speaker ****
remarkable. I join my honourable friend incredulity them, that is an incredible achievement, 30,000 trees, due congratulations, let's hope they keep going. The number of livestock kept in the UK has nearly livestock kept in the UK has nearly The Dogs Protection of Livestock Act 1953 was passed, there has been an increase in dog ownership since then. In 2025 survey, it indicated 96% of respondents had between one 96% of respondents had between one to 10 incidents of sheep worrying in the last 12 months, highlighting the urgent need to modernise the legislation to address this issue.
I legislation to address this issue. I respondents on average reported for sheep deaths per year, by sheep worrying dogs, that is an increase in previous years and one respondent in previous years and one respondent reported 44 sheep killed in a single attack. That doesn't account for the miscarriages of land and other secondary impacts of livestock worrying. The behaviour of dogs that chase, attack or cause stress to livestock, can have devastating outcomes, resulting in injury and death which of course can have a detrimental impact on farmers.
Livestock worrying can also have wider implications, such as land being aborted, flocks of birds being smothered, demonstrating how harmful the incidents can be. It is clear that we need stronger measures to attack livestock worrying at the devastating effects on farmers and livestock this bill would deliver these measures. The government recognises the distress livestock worrying can cause animals and their keepers. All reported crime must be taken seriously. Investigated. And, where appropriate, taken through the courts and meet the appropriate penalties.
This bill amends the dogs protection livestock act 1953, which underpins that livestock worrying offence enforcement, and I would like to underline the three main areas the bill will address, before going into more detail on them themselves. It will modernise the definitions and scope of the livestock worrying offence, by extending the locations where an offence may take place, to include roads and paths, and will expand the species scope to include camelids, which are commonly found. It will strengthen police powers, including powers of entry, the seizure and detention of dogs, and a collection of evidence to improve enforcement and will increase the maximum penalty from a fine of £1000 to an unlimited fine, to act as a deterrent.
These three key areas will strengthen the legislation and deterrence around livestock worrying and attacks on livestock. On scope, the bill will specifically broaden the locations where an offence may take, to include roads and paths. Dogs and dog walkers are commonly found walking on roads and paths and this new measure will help protect livestock where they are being moved. Such as cows going into a milking parlour or sheep being moved across the fields. this is an important new protection from will also protect those being protected by the act, such as camelids like alpacas and llamas, it is estimated there might be as many as 40,000 alpacas owned in England, and 20,000 owned by nonmembers.
The bill amends the wording of the offence of livestock worrying so that attacking livestock is dealt with separately from worrying livestock. Attacking is part of what is more widely described as worrying, in the 1953 act, however, the term worrying can dismiss the severity of some offences. Reframing the act so that attacking is distinct from worrying but highlights the violent nature of incidents involving attacks on livestock. The new police powers would be a huge help to the police. The primary focus of the bill is to strengthen these powers to enable the police to respond to livestock worrying incidents more effectively.
These include extending powers of seizure, modifying entry powers, and introducing a new power to take samples of impressions from livestock and suspected dogs furthermore in the survey carried out by the National Sheep Association 2025, 98% of respondents agreed, which is probably a generally unheard-of to get 98% of people to agree on something, but there is urgent need for additional police powers. The police currently only sate as the purposes of identifying the owner. The police come and have a limited powers at their disposal to address reoffending, when either the same dog is found attacking livestock repeatedly, or, the same owner has several dogs who worry livestock.
Under this bill, if the police have reasonable grounds to believe there is a risk that could attack or worry livestock again, they have the power to seize and detain a dog. The dog can be detained until an investigation has been carried out. Or until the proceedings have been determined or withdrawn. We hope this power will address the issue of reoffending on dog owners who disregard the law, and will help address the most serious incidences of livestock worrying. Secondly, the bill will introduce a power to enable the police to take samples and impressions from a dog or livestock, where they have reasonable grounds to believe the dog has attacked or worry to livestock.
And that simple impressions might provide evidence of the offence for can then be used as evidence to support a prosecution. Samples may be retained either until the police investigation into a potential offence has finished or until court proceedings have finished or being withdrawn from finally, the bill will extend the powers of entry, under current legislation, the police can only enter the premises and purpose of identifying the dog owner. It is to ensure the police can collect the necessary evidence to prosecute these crimes and will extend police powers to allow the police to enter and search a premises with a warrant to seize a dog and take samples from a dog if there are reasonable grounds to believe an offence has been committed.
The expanded powers of entry will allow the police to seize items which may be evidence of an offence. For example, a dog collar or a towel with blood on it. These powers are important for improving conviction rates. In reducing the prevalence of reoffending to protect our respected farmers from the horrific consequence of livestock worrying. By improving enforcement mechanisms to allow the police to deal with and investigate incidents of livestock worrying more effectively, we hope that livestock owners or bystanders will feel encouraged to report more incidents and know that the reports will be taken seriously.
The bill will also increase penalties, the penalty is currently set at a maximum fine of £1000. The maximum penalty will be increased to an unlimited fine to act as a deterrent. The courts will determine an appropriate amount in Sentencing Guidelines, that takes into The seriousness of the offence, and the circumstances of the offender. The courts can also require offender to make financial reparation to the victim for any personal injury, loss or damage resulting from an offence. Compensation may be ordered for such an amount the court considers appropriate, having regard to any evidence, including any representations made by the offender or prosecutor.
There is no limit in the value of a single compensation order handed down to an offender, order handed down to an offender, and the bill will not change this. A survey carried out by the National Farmers' Union 2025 found in England, the Midlands was the worst region by cost, the dog attacks on livestock costing an estimated £425,000, followed by the south- west, which estimated £225,000. Farm animals in the south-east of England are worth an estimated £125,000 were killed, up 23% from the previous year.
The National Sheep Association found that more than half of respondents felt that increased fines punishment and seizure powers will reduce sheep worrying incidents. Of course, many responsible dog walkers enjoy the countryside without incident. And dog owners have a responsibility to ensure that dogs are kept safe and under control. The countryside code highlights that it is best practice to keep dogs on lead around livestock. Visitors should always check local science, as there are locations where you must keep your -- Local science, there are locations where you must keep your dog on a lead.
We recognise there is a careful balance to be struck, and the freedom dog owners enjoy when walking their dogs, and of course, the welfare of these dogs, including the freedom for dogs to exhibit normal behaviours for their welfare. The new police powers that this bill will introduce will ensure that effective response to reported cases are a vital measure for helping improve enforcement and protecting the livelihood of our valuable farming communities. I just want to mention a bit more because countryside access came up.
This bill would cover a scenario where the person in charge of the dog causing it to attack livestock on a road or path, the 1953 act protects livestock that may have strayed from one field to another, if this is agricultural land, as defined in the act, subject to certain exemptions and defences. The countryside code encourages people to check local signs and leave gates as they found them. The guidance highlights the responsibly of landowners to regard way marking &s, such as using them to one road users for things that are not obvious, it is the responsibility of the owner and must take measures to protect livestock and owners of livestock should also take reasonable care to see their livestock does not stray.
And there is a common law duty of anyone who keeps animals in a field next to a road, to take reasonable care in preventing their escape from preventing damage. At this bill focuses on delivering the most impact via the private members bill by improving police powers to investigate and support convictions. In answer to the question of whether it would be an offence not to report, it would not be an offence to fail to report an incident, it will always encourage dog walkers to be responsible in such circumstances by bringing this to the attention of the livestock owner and police ensuring that any injured livestock can receive the care or treatment they need is important for welfare reasons.
It would be very difficult to enforce legal reporting requirements. And in terms of the species being protected, sheep are specifically protected by dogs at large, because they are the most susceptible for stress, in the presence of dogs, and sheep are prone to abort the young when it distress, but primary legislation can be considered in the future to add other species if necessary. And it's a point raised by one of my honourable friends in the countryside code highlights it is best to keep dogs on leads around livestock and we encourage dogs and livestock and we encourage dogs and walkers are kept safe.
The bill will not amend section 12 a of the 1953 act which sets out an exemption to section 12C for guide dogs, therefore the owners of guide dogs will remain exempt from criminal liability if they are at large, infield or closure where there are sheep. However, the offence of chasing or attacking livestock applied to guide dogs and the owner of the guidebook be committing an offence if the dog chased or attack livestock. ultimately it remains a matter for the courts decide what can be considered a guide dog.
So, I recognise the strong public support for animal welfare in this country as reflected in the volume of correspondence received by my department and engagement from stakeholders. Key stakeholders have been engaged in these measures, including the livestock and farming
**** Possible New Speaker ****
sector, animal welfare, police and veterinary sectors, of course. Very grateful to the Minister for giving way, and I apologise for the response for this bill, for being late, I hope to be here earlier. Can I ask the Minister on a particular I ask the Minister on a particular point, she talked about the importance of animal welfare, around the country, not least she knows in Newcastle-under-Lyme, can you give a
**** Possible New Speaker ****
flavour of when the government will publish the animal welfare strategy. I thank my honourable friend for his intervention and I hate to give his intervention and I hate to give him a parliamentary answer, in due course. He will have to forgive me on this matter. Of course, as illustrated by the two bills, Madame illustrated by the two bills, Madame Deputy Speaker, we have taken through Parliament this morning and the actions we have done in our first year, we have passed, very first year, we have passed, very committed to animal welfare, it is of huge importance to the country, we have heard in this debate, we are we have heard in this debate, we are a nation of animal lovers and have a a nation of animal lovers and have a caring nation, we will not revisit the names of all our pets from the previous debates, but we generally have a kind of coalition, but one of have a kind of coalition, but one of my favourite moments, one of my events in parliament, when there was events in parliament, when there was the dog competition, which is more fiercely thought fourth and some by-elections, which dog makes it the most popular across the House.
The depth of concern on this issue has once again been evident in today's debate. The government is therefore fully committed to supporting this important bill as it progresses through the other place. This government was elected on a mandate to introduce plans for animal welfare in a generation. The Department initiated a series of meetings Vicky animal welfare stakeholders as part of the developed of an overarching approach to animal welfare them asserting our commitment to improving animal welfare across the board at the Prime Minister has committed to publishing animal welfare strategy I would like to thank all honourable members across the House for the engagement and constructive comments and once again I am also grateful to the support for farmers, welfare stakeholders, police and others who welcome the bill.
This bill will make a lasting impact of those affected by livestock worrying and I am delighted to support this bill. I
**** Possible New Speaker ****
thank the honourable lady and I look forward to seeing it part of the statute book. With Leader of the House I call
**** Possible New Speaker ****
With Leader of the House I call the member to windup.
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the member to windup. With the leave of the House may I take this opportunity to thank the take this opportunity to thank the Minister for the majority of her remarks although of course we do disagree about the Conservative record on animal welfare. I thank record on animal welfare. I thank her for her personal support and the government for that support for this government for that support for this bill. I would like to pass on my bill. I would like to pass on my thanks to a number of people who have contributed to this bill.
This bill commenced its journey in the last Parliament as a Private Members
12:18
Aphra Brandreth MP (Chester South and Eddisbury, Conservative)
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Aphra Brandreth MP (Chester South and Eddisbury, Conservative)
last Parliament as a Private Members Bill under the sponsorship of Baroness coffee. It is... I'm grateful to her for her support and I shall put on record my sincere thanks. I would like to thank again all members who have spoken during the passage of this bill. It has been a pleasure to work with colleagues and I am incredible grateful for their involvement. I also wanted to acknowledge the contributions made today that rightly emphasise this bill is not about targeting dog owners.
I am a dog lover myself and I know the vast majority of dog owners are responsible and care deeply about animal welfare. Whether it is dogs, sheep, or indeed alpacas. This bill is about ensuring we can all enjoy the countryside responsible. Can I also put on record my thanks to the team in the Public Bill Office and in DEFRA who have worked so hard with this bill. And all of the help of my brilliant team. They are very hard-working and I particularly would like to thank Joe Hetherington for his infallible support.
Finally can I thank the farmers in my constituency of Chester South and Eddisbury who have shared their experiences with me their devastating insight into the impact of the tax and securing prosecutions under the current law have been valuable in helping this legislation was -- shaping this legislation. It has been a team effort and the difference we can make as a result of this bill will be felt across farming communities. It is for them we have brought this legislation forward and I could not be prouder to have played my part in delivering it.
Thank you.
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The question is the Bilby now read the third time. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. contrary, "No". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I will give a few The ayes have it. I will give a few moments for the Front Benches to
I am a dog lover myself and I know the vast majority of dog owners are responsible and care deeply about animal welfare. Whether it is dogs, sheep, or indeed alpacas. This bill is about ensuring we can all enjoy the countryside responsible. Can I also put on record my thanks to the team in the Public Bill Office and in DEFRA who have worked so hard with this bill. And all of the help of my brilliant team. They are very hard-working and I particularly would like to thank Joe Hetherington for his infallible support.
Finally can I thank the farmers in my constituency of Chester South and Eddisbury who have shared their experiences with me their devastating insight into the impact of the tax and securing prosecutions under the current law have been valuable in helping this legislation was -- shaping this legislation. It has been a team effort and the difference we can make as a result of this bill will be felt across farming communities. It is for them we have brought this legislation forward and I could not be prouder to have played my part in delivering it.
Thank you.
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The question is the Bilby now read the third time. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. contrary, "No". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I will give a few The ayes have it. I will give a few moments for the Front Benches to
12:20
Private Members' Bills: Absent Voting (Elections in Scotland and Wales) Bill: Remaining Stages
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Private Members' Bills: Absent Voting (Elections in Scotland and Wales) Bill: Remaining Stages
shop -- swapped over.
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Absent Voting (Elections in Scotland and Wales) Bill as amended in Public Bill Committee, to be in Public Bill Committee, to be Before we begin proceedings I remind members of the differences between members of the differences between report stage and third reading. The scope of this report stage debate is only amendment one in the name of only amendment one in the name of the member in charge. The scope of the third reading debate to follow will be the whole bill as it stands after report stage.
Members may wish after report stage. Members may wish to consider these points and then decide at which stage or stages they want to try and catch my eye. Amendment one, Tracy Gilbert. Amendment one, Tracy Gilbert.
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Amendment one, Tracy Gilbert. I beg to move the amendment be made. I am very pleased to be here today in this chamber and I would like to thank all honourable members like to thank all honourable members who have taken part in the passage of this bill so far. This bill addresses an issue that needs to be addresses an issue that needs to be resolved at pace. To ensure electors in Scotland and Wales can benefit in time for the devolved parliament time for the devolved parliament
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Absent Voting (Elections in Scotland and Wales) Bill as amended in Public Bill Committee, to be in Public Bill Committee, to be Before we begin proceedings I remind members of the differences between members of the differences between report stage and third reading. The scope of this report stage debate is only amendment one in the name of only amendment one in the name of the member in charge. The scope of the third reading debate to follow will be the whole bill as it stands after report stage.
Members may wish after report stage. Members may wish to consider these points and then decide at which stage or stages they want to try and catch my eye. Amendment one, Tracy Gilbert. Amendment one, Tracy Gilbert.
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Amendment one, Tracy Gilbert. I beg to move the amendment be made. I am very pleased to be here today in this chamber and I would like to thank all honourable members like to thank all honourable members who have taken part in the passage of this bill so far. This bill addresses an issue that needs to be addresses an issue that needs to be resolved at pace. To ensure electors in Scotland and Wales can benefit in time for the devolved parliament time for the devolved parliament
12:21
Tracy Gilbert MP (Edinburgh North and Leith, Labour)
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Tracy Gilbert MP (Edinburgh North and Leith, Labour)
time for the devolved parliament elections next May. I am grateful to this House for the unanimous support I have received. I hope you will be able to complete comments passage of this bill today but before that is possible I believe a minor and technical amendment must be made. Amendment one amends the 12 B power the bill adds to the Scotland Act. This is done in clause 2 of the bill to expressly indicate the power can be used to amend secondary legislation made under the Scotland Act.
This amendment came at the request of the Scottish government to correct an oversight concerning how the devolved legislation operates and how this bill will be
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implemented. I will give way. I am obliged to my honourable
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I am obliged to my honourable friend forgiving way. She speaks eloquently on this matter. She agree eloquently on this matter. She agree with me for the UK government focus on the Secretary of State for on the Secretary of State for Scotland for working closely with Scottish Government where possible Scottish Government where possible to be pragmatic, it is important this is in securing an amendment to this bill which will be of benefit this bill which will be of benefit to the voters in Baillieston in my constituency who go to the polling stations at multiple primary
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schools, which are wonderful. I thank my honourable friend for
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I thank my honourable friend for his intervention and yes I do agree there has been support from the Scottish government and we have been Scottish government and we have been working in cooperation. How this bill will be implemented by the bill will be implemented by the Scottish government is a core part of this amendment. Because without this amendment, the bill could still deliver on its purpose however deliver on its purpose however Scottish Government would have to appeal and restate the entire Scottish Parliament election order Scottish Parliament election order 2015 with the new provisions.
This amendment seeks to remedy this amendment seeks to remedy this oversight and ensure the Scottish Government are able to impairment the bill in their own devolved legislation -- implement the bill in their own devolved legislation so the Scottish electors may benefit in the Scottish electors may benefit in time for the May 2026 elections. It is unfortunate to make a technical amendment this late in the process of Parliamentary scrutiny particularly given the error that has been identified some time ago but I'm glad to be able to assist the Scottish Government with this
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matter. I commend this amendment to the House. The question is this amendment be made. Minister.
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made. Minister. Thank you. I want to begin by congratulating my honourable friend, congratulating my honourable friend, the member for Edinburgh and Leith the member for Edinburgh and Leith for her work. The commitment she has for her work. The commitment she has shown during its passage so far has been admirable and her commitment to
This amendment came at the request of the Scottish government to correct an oversight concerning how the devolved legislation operates and how this bill will be
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implemented. I will give way. I am obliged to my honourable
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I am obliged to my honourable friend forgiving way. She speaks eloquently on this matter. She agree eloquently on this matter. She agree with me for the UK government focus on the Secretary of State for on the Secretary of State for Scotland for working closely with Scottish Government where possible Scottish Government where possible to be pragmatic, it is important this is in securing an amendment to this bill which will be of benefit this bill which will be of benefit to the voters in Baillieston in my constituency who go to the polling stations at multiple primary
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schools, which are wonderful. I thank my honourable friend for
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I thank my honourable friend for his intervention and yes I do agree there has been support from the Scottish government and we have been Scottish government and we have been working in cooperation. How this bill will be implemented by the bill will be implemented by the Scottish government is a core part of this amendment. Because without this amendment, the bill could still deliver on its purpose however deliver on its purpose however Scottish Government would have to appeal and restate the entire Scottish Parliament election order Scottish Parliament election order 2015 with the new provisions.
This amendment seeks to remedy this amendment seeks to remedy this oversight and ensure the Scottish Government are able to impairment the bill in their own devolved legislation -- implement the bill in their own devolved legislation so the Scottish electors may benefit in the Scottish electors may benefit in time for the May 2026 elections. It is unfortunate to make a technical amendment this late in the process of Parliamentary scrutiny particularly given the error that has been identified some time ago but I'm glad to be able to assist the Scottish Government with this
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matter. I commend this amendment to the House. The question is this amendment be made. Minister.
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made. Minister. Thank you. I want to begin by congratulating my honourable friend, congratulating my honourable friend, the member for Edinburgh and Leith the member for Edinburgh and Leith for her work. The commitment she has for her work. The commitment she has shown during its passage so far has been admirable and her commitment to
12:24
Rushanara Ali MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Bethnal Green and Stepney, Labour)
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Rushanara Ali MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Bethnal Green and Stepney, Labour)
been admirable and her commitment to delivering this bill for the benefit of voters in Scotland is evident in her work. I would also like to take this opportunity to reaffirm once again this bill has the full support of the government. I am very grateful to have seen support from across the House for this bill and the changes it will make possible. Amendment one is further evidence of the diligence my honourable friend has shown to this bill. I am particularly grateful to her for accommodating the Scottish government's request for a new amendment at this late stage.
She has very clearly explained this is a minor and technical amendment which will sympathise the implementation process for the Scottish Government. This change in clause 2 makes explicit the new section 12 B power introduced by this bill can amend secondary legislation made under the Scotland Act. This amendment has been considered by my officials who are content it does not present any kind of novel approach to legislation. Nor said any precedent. It is simply a sensible change which will avoid unnecessary restatement and then reconsideration of existing legislation by the Scottish Parliament.
Increasing the chances of the important changes made possible via this bill being delivered in time for the May 2026 Scottish Parliament and Senedd Cymru elections. I am pleased this issue has been identified at this stage and I can confirm the government
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supports this amendment. The question is amendment one be made. As many as are of that
She has very clearly explained this is a minor and technical amendment which will sympathise the implementation process for the Scottish Government. This change in clause 2 makes explicit the new section 12 B power introduced by this bill can amend secondary legislation made under the Scotland Act. This amendment has been considered by my officials who are content it does not present any kind of novel approach to legislation. Nor said any precedent. It is simply a sensible change which will avoid unnecessary restatement and then reconsideration of existing legislation by the Scottish Parliament.
Increasing the chances of the important changes made possible via this bill being delivered in time for the May 2026 Scottish Parliament and Senedd Cymru elections. I am pleased this issue has been identified at this stage and I can confirm the government
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supports this amendment. The question is amendment one be made. As many as are of that
12:26
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made. As many as are of that opinion, say, "Aye". Of the contrary, "No". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Consideration completed. Third reading what day?
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Now. Tracy Gilbert to move third reading.
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reading. I beg to move the Absent Voting (Elections in Scotland and Wales) Bill now be read 1/3 time. With your Bill now be read 1/3 time. With your leave Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to thank honourable members across the House for their contribution the House for their contribution during the various stages of the bill's passage. I can I also thank the civil servants in the registration and franchise policy team and the Public Bill Office and Parliament for providing me with Parliament for providing me with such support with the bill.
I can confirm I have received quite an education in the legislative education in the legislative process. I would also like to pay particular tribute to my honourable friend, the Minister for friend, the Minister for homelessness and bureaucracy for her steadfast support during the passage steadfast support during the passage of this bill to date. The introduction of the online absence voting application service gives electors in England, Scotland and Wales the option to apply online for a postal and proxy voting for UK general elections.
Electors in England are also given the option to England are also given the option to use their online service to apply for a postal and proxy voting for all other types of election. They all other types of election. They can participate in. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for voters in Scotland and Wales with Mac. Voters in Scotland and Wales face a fragmented system. One where you may apply online for a General Election but have to fill out a paper form for their local council election.
for their local council election. This bill enables this inconsistency to be ended. The bill insured would allow for the extension of the same online application options to voters online application options to voters in Scotland and Wales the devolved elections. The goal is to have these elections. The goal is to have these measures in place ahead of the election scheduled for May 2026. I have emphasised this before but I have emphasised this before but I would like to once again stressed -- once again stressed the importance once again stressed the importance of devolution.
Devolution and the importance of elections for the Scottish parliament and Senedd Cymru are important for these nations. The bill is drafted to ensure devolution is respected with proposals having been discussed with Ministers from been discussed with Ministers from both Scottish Government and Welsh Government. Alongside the support for the Scottish and Welsh Government, this bill has been enjoyed cross-party support enjoyed cross-party support throughout its passage. I will give way.
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Now. Tracy Gilbert to move third reading.
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reading. I beg to move the Absent Voting (Elections in Scotland and Wales) Bill now be read 1/3 time. With your Bill now be read 1/3 time. With your leave Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to thank honourable members across the House for their contribution the House for their contribution during the various stages of the bill's passage. I can I also thank the civil servants in the registration and franchise policy team and the Public Bill Office and Parliament for providing me with Parliament for providing me with such support with the bill.
I can confirm I have received quite an education in the legislative education in the legislative process. I would also like to pay particular tribute to my honourable friend, the Minister for friend, the Minister for homelessness and bureaucracy for her steadfast support during the passage steadfast support during the passage of this bill to date. The introduction of the online absence voting application service gives electors in England, Scotland and Wales the option to apply online for a postal and proxy voting for UK general elections.
Electors in England are also given the option to England are also given the option to use their online service to apply for a postal and proxy voting for all other types of election. They all other types of election. They can participate in. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for voters in Scotland and Wales with Mac. Voters in Scotland and Wales face a fragmented system. One where you may apply online for a General Election but have to fill out a paper form for their local council election.
for their local council election. This bill enables this inconsistency to be ended. The bill insured would allow for the extension of the same online application options to voters online application options to voters in Scotland and Wales the devolved elections. The goal is to have these elections. The goal is to have these measures in place ahead of the election scheduled for May 2026. I have emphasised this before but I have emphasised this before but I would like to once again stressed -- once again stressed the importance once again stressed the importance of devolution.
Devolution and the importance of elections for the Scottish parliament and Senedd Cymru are important for these nations. The bill is drafted to ensure devolution is respected with proposals having been discussed with Ministers from been discussed with Ministers from both Scottish Government and Welsh Government. Alongside the support for the Scottish and Welsh Government, this bill has been enjoyed cross-party support enjoyed cross-party support throughout its passage. I will give way.
12:28
Tracy Gilbert MP (Edinburgh North and Leith, Labour)
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Tracy Gilbert MP (Edinburgh North and Leith, Labour)
My honourable friend, the member for Edinburgh North & Leith recently had her birthday. She is quite right to emphasise the importance of good work in between the Scottish Government and the Westminster government to ensure voting rules are harmonised. Would she outline how that benefits voters at East Bank primary school and East Bank Academy in my wonderful
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constituency? I thank my honourable friend for his intervention. I would imagine it would mean they would get an extra day of school, for the elections which most kids enjoy getting during which most kids enjoy getting during the election stage. It does enhance democracy. As we saw last you and democracy. As we saw last you and the General Election was called, it was actually quite tricky for Scottish voters because of the tight time window and this will allow time window and this will allow people to work with more ease to apply for access to a ballot if they are to be away on holiday.
The bill has also been welcomed by the electoral centre who recognise the electoral centre who recognise the benefit of expanding the streamline and secure system. This is a and secure system. This is a testament to what can be achieved when we work collaboratively like my honourable friend has said earlier. honourable friend has said earlier. Across government and parties in the interest of democratic participation. I hope this bill will proceed through the House and proceed through the House and swiftly pass to the other place.
I would urge members to support this would urge members to support this passage today for 'Last Emperor' --
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this passage today. The question is the bill be now
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read 1/3 time will stop. I congratulate my honourable friend from Edinburgh North & Leith to getting this bill to its third reading and getting both sides of the House behind it although I know members from the SNP now I am here, I am obviously a proud member for an English constituency but we have seen in the Newcastle-under-Lyme constituency the benefit of a system that defends and supports the franchise and make sure people are able to have their say and so I wanted to very gently contribute to this debate to give my support my honourable friend and encourage colleagues to get behind this bill.
That is not least because democracy is important and how important is it we discussed this bill? Making sure people up and down the United Kingdom and extended to Wales and Scotland are able to hold their policy issues to account, to make sure the decisions taken by those are reflective of them and we do so on the first anniversary of this Labour government. I think that Labour government. I think that speaks very much to how -- the power of the vote.
This bill is about of the vote. This bill is about making sure that people have as much support as possible to vote and have their say, to shape the future and their say, to shape the future and as I say to hold their elected representatives to account. At a local level and the devolved level local level and the devolved level I worked as a Bush MP and lived in Scotland, to work as a Scottish MP, and other challenges and experiences... I will happily give way.
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constituency? I thank my honourable friend for his intervention. I would imagine it would mean they would get an extra day of school, for the elections which most kids enjoy getting during which most kids enjoy getting during the election stage. It does enhance democracy. As we saw last you and democracy. As we saw last you and the General Election was called, it was actually quite tricky for Scottish voters because of the tight time window and this will allow time window and this will allow people to work with more ease to apply for access to a ballot if they are to be away on holiday.
The bill has also been welcomed by the electoral centre who recognise the electoral centre who recognise the benefit of expanding the streamline and secure system. This is a and secure system. This is a testament to what can be achieved when we work collaboratively like my honourable friend has said earlier. honourable friend has said earlier. Across government and parties in the interest of democratic participation. I hope this bill will proceed through the House and proceed through the House and swiftly pass to the other place.
I would urge members to support this would urge members to support this passage today for 'Last Emperor' --
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this passage today. The question is the bill be now
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read 1/3 time will stop. I congratulate my honourable friend from Edinburgh North & Leith to getting this bill to its third reading and getting both sides of the House behind it although I know members from the SNP now I am here, I am obviously a proud member for an English constituency but we have seen in the Newcastle-under-Lyme constituency the benefit of a system that defends and supports the franchise and make sure people are able to have their say and so I wanted to very gently contribute to this debate to give my support my honourable friend and encourage colleagues to get behind this bill.
That is not least because democracy is important and how important is it we discussed this bill? Making sure people up and down the United Kingdom and extended to Wales and Scotland are able to hold their policy issues to account, to make sure the decisions taken by those are reflective of them and we do so on the first anniversary of this Labour government. I think that Labour government. I think that speaks very much to how -- the power of the vote.
This bill is about of the vote. This bill is about making sure that people have as much support as possible to vote and have their say, to shape the future and their say, to shape the future and as I say to hold their elected representatives to account. At a local level and the devolved level local level and the devolved level I worked as a Bush MP and lived in Scotland, to work as a Scottish MP, and other challenges and experiences... I will happily give way.
12:31
Adam Jogee MP (Newcastle-under-Lyme, Labour)
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Adam Jogee MP (Newcastle-under-Lyme, Labour)
The purpose of this bill is to bring some much-needed consistency across our family nations, would he agree with me, voters in Newcastle- under-Lyme, Newcastle upon Tyne, or Newcastle turn on the Scottish
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borders, should be able to exercise foes in a reasonably consistent way. My honourable friend makes an
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My honourable friend makes an important point, I'm an English MP, we are talking about Scotland and Wales, my wife is from Northern Ireland, so our four nations are Ireland, so our four nations are very much represented emotional contributed to this debate this contributed to this debate this afternoon. -- Represented in my small contribution. While I personally love the vote in While I personally love the vote in person, the West Midlands, voting by person, the West Midlands, voting by post, knocking on doors, despite seeing my colleague on the front bench beating Tories when and where bench beating Tories when and where we can.
But making it easier to we can. But making it easier to vote, making sure people have who have health issues, family issues, have health issues, family issues, called away for work, is vital. And called away for work, is vital. And we have seen the threats to our democracy, people thinking it doesn't represent them, their issues, doesn't involve them, doesn't include them, and what we doesn't include them, and what we can do to neutralise those concerns with my honourable friend has done a brilliant lay in -- So brilliantly in her bill.
I think it speaks for itself. I am here to support my honourable friend and I look forward to this bill successfully passing third readings afternoon.
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I can enter the honourable member for it in the North and Leith for bringing forward the spell, would like to speak today in support of it. The proposal to speak subtly to modernise our democratic processes, modernise our democratic processes, but to safeguard the rights of every citizen across the devolved nations citizen across the devolved nations of the UK. At its heart, this bill is about strengthening participation and ensuring no one is left without a voice in our democratic a voice in our democratic institutions.
In particular, I understand it seeks to streamline and clarify the mechanisms for and clarify the mechanisms for absent voting, voting by vote or by proxy, in the Scottish Parliament in proxy, in the Scottish Parliament in the Senate can route -- In the Senedd Cymru elections. While
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borders, should be able to exercise foes in a reasonably consistent way. My honourable friend makes an
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My honourable friend makes an important point, I'm an English MP, we are talking about Scotland and Wales, my wife is from Northern Ireland, so our four nations are Ireland, so our four nations are very much represented emotional contributed to this debate this contributed to this debate this afternoon. -- Represented in my small contribution. While I personally love the vote in While I personally love the vote in person, the West Midlands, voting by person, the West Midlands, voting by post, knocking on doors, despite seeing my colleague on the front bench beating Tories when and where bench beating Tories when and where we can.
But making it easier to we can. But making it easier to vote, making sure people have who have health issues, family issues, have health issues, family issues, called away for work, is vital. And called away for work, is vital. And we have seen the threats to our democracy, people thinking it doesn't represent them, their issues, doesn't involve them, doesn't include them, and what we doesn't include them, and what we can do to neutralise those concerns with my honourable friend has done a brilliant lay in -- So brilliantly in her bill.
I think it speaks for itself. I am here to support my honourable friend and I look forward to this bill successfully passing third readings afternoon.
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I can enter the honourable member for it in the North and Leith for bringing forward the spell, would like to speak today in support of it. The proposal to speak subtly to modernise our democratic processes, modernise our democratic processes, but to safeguard the rights of every citizen across the devolved nations citizen across the devolved nations of the UK. At its heart, this bill is about strengthening participation and ensuring no one is left without a voice in our democratic a voice in our democratic institutions.
In particular, I understand it seeks to streamline and clarify the mechanisms for and clarify the mechanisms for absent voting, voting by vote or by proxy, in the Scottish Parliament in proxy, in the Scottish Parliament in the Senate can route -- In the Senedd Cymru elections. While
12:34
Laura Kyrke-Smith MP (Aylesbury, Labour)
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Laura Kyrke-Smith MP (Aylesbury, Labour)
Senedd Cymru elections. While respecting the integrity of the devolved powers. The right to vote is the bedrock of our democracy. But the right is only meaningful if it can be exercised in practice and to many voters across Scotland and Wales, especially those in rural areas, students, those with disability, military personnel, have faced avoidable barriers to accessing postal or proxy voting, inconsistent regulations and outdated application process have led to confusion and delays, the result is the people that prevented from participating in our democracy, they may be serving overseas or temporarily relocated for work or caring duties for a loved one, playing a vital part in our society playing a vital part in our society or economy, by being unable to vote.
and this bill is pragmatic in being able to standardise the procedures for these votes. Improving the transparency and accessibility of the system but maintaining a system that is inclusive and fair. I am well insured in doing so the bill does not seek to override or diminish the autonomy of the Scottish Parliament or Senedd Cymru, but rather have a framework that can be adopted in cooperation with them. So, it should be seen at think as a collaborative opportunity, a chance for all corners of the UK to work together to improve the democratic process for every voter.
A voter in Aberdeen should have exactly the same confidence in the integrity and accessibility of their vote as my constituents do in Aylesbury. And I think uniformity really kind of strengthens, not weakens, our union and our democracy. I just wanted to make a wider point on the context to which we are bringing this bill forward, because I think we have seen this decline in voter turnout in recent years. Especially among younger and transient populations, this stems from this wider challenge we have in society of young people,
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people more broadly, feeling a bit disillusioned and disengaged from politics. I will give way. I am obliged, Madame Deputy
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I am obliged, Madame Deputy Speaker. My honourable friend, the member for Aylesbury, mentions the member for Aylesbury, mentions the lack of enthusiasm among some younger people in voter, this is a younger people in voter, this is a problem in Scotland. Would he agree with me, one potential explanation for this is the catastrophic decline for education standards, the insolvency of universities in Scotland and so forth, that may be
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Scotland and so forth, that may be contributing to the decline in enthusiasm. I do agree, I think the education
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I do agree, I think the education system plays a big part in this, and system plays a big part in this, and I thank my honourable friend for his point and it links to the related point and it links to the related point I want to make. I recently ran a work experience program for a fantastic group of 16-18-year-olds in Aylesbury, and I asked the students to come up with ideas about students to come up with ideas about what more we could do for young people in the country and one of the young groups came straight to the young groups came straight to the point of politics and democracy and law.
I would like to thank the young people in that group for their people in that group for their suggestions. There ask of government was that we look at the school curriculum for a much greater focus on voting systems and political awareness, civic engagement, the rule of law, human rights, and I think they were spot on really in that suggestion and we had great discussions about how this should help increase understanding and engagement and participation in our democracy, and I shared my hope that our manifesto commitment, to lower the voting age from 18 to 16 in general elections will help to do just that.
And I hope we will be taking that forward as a government as quickly as possible. The fundamental point is this. I will give way.
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I thank the honourable member for giving way and I thank the Member for Edinburgh North & Leith for this for Edinburgh North & Leith for this change been brought forward today to support the honourable member agree that actually one of the things we need to continue to have the need to continue to have the conversation is about what it means for people. By creating consistency through the voting system, it AIDS
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that conversation. I thank my honourable friend for her point and I do agree, I think her point and I do agree, I think it's exactly that, if we are going to rebuild trust in democracy and we have to start with the voting system have to start with the voting system people have faith in. To return to the bill, I think we have discussed this fundamental point that we do have this urgent need to rebuild engagement and trust in our engagement and trust in our democracy, and I think today's bill, democracy, and I think today's bill, which makes absent voting more user-friendly and more dependable, is one really important concrete step forward.
Madame Deputy Speaker, step forward. Madame Deputy Speaker, I would urge colleagues across the House, regardless of party or region, to support this bill and help ensure that no voter anywhere in the UK is absent from participating in our democracy,
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participating in our democracy, simply because they are absent on polling day. I would like to thank the honourable member for Edinburgh honourable member for Edinburgh North & Leith and I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate and raise issues on fairness and equality in the UK's democracy. In England, we have seen how absent voting, whether by post or proxy, has empowered thousands of people to make their voices heard, even when life sometimes gets in the way.
Whether that is due to illness, work commitments, accessibility concerns, disability, care and commitments, or simply away on holiday, or in the case of my city, serving in another country. No one should be forced to choose between voting and the demands of everyday life and it is therefore only right that voters in Wales and Scotland have the same protections and act access, way most -- And access, and if we are serious about strength interest in politics, it must make voting easier and not harder.
On that note of making voting easier, it would be remiss of me if I were not to welcome the government's move to allow the veterans ID card to be used as a valid form of identification. Something I know is really welcomed by many residents that have served our country. Madame Deputy Speaker, it is absolutely right that those who have served our country are not excluded from them democratic participation due to IT restrictions. Many veterans, particularly older or more vulnerable, had challenges accessing approved forms of ID, so it is a valid and small but significant step valid and small but significant step in ordering the service and ensuring voices are heard by the ballot box.
voices are heard by the ballot box. Although, the speaker, this bill does not address the voting age, I want to place on record, my strong support for extending voting rights support for extending voting rights to 16 and 17-year-oldss across the UK. And ensure fairness, whether it be by absent voting or by age. Many be by absent voting or by age. Many people in Scotland and Wales already vote in local elections, and it is vote in local elections, and it is time people in Northern Ireland had the same voice.
This bill is a step forward for a more fair and accessible democracy, and a sticky mistake. mistake.
and this bill is pragmatic in being able to standardise the procedures for these votes. Improving the transparency and accessibility of the system but maintaining a system that is inclusive and fair. I am well insured in doing so the bill does not seek to override or diminish the autonomy of the Scottish Parliament or Senedd Cymru, but rather have a framework that can be adopted in cooperation with them. So, it should be seen at think as a collaborative opportunity, a chance for all corners of the UK to work together to improve the democratic process for every voter.
A voter in Aberdeen should have exactly the same confidence in the integrity and accessibility of their vote as my constituents do in Aylesbury. And I think uniformity really kind of strengthens, not weakens, our union and our democracy. I just wanted to make a wider point on the context to which we are bringing this bill forward, because I think we have seen this decline in voter turnout in recent years. Especially among younger and transient populations, this stems from this wider challenge we have in society of young people,
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people more broadly, feeling a bit disillusioned and disengaged from politics. I will give way. I am obliged, Madame Deputy
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I am obliged, Madame Deputy Speaker. My honourable friend, the member for Aylesbury, mentions the member for Aylesbury, mentions the lack of enthusiasm among some younger people in voter, this is a younger people in voter, this is a problem in Scotland. Would he agree with me, one potential explanation for this is the catastrophic decline for education standards, the insolvency of universities in Scotland and so forth, that may be
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Scotland and so forth, that may be contributing to the decline in enthusiasm. I do agree, I think the education
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I do agree, I think the education system plays a big part in this, and system plays a big part in this, and I thank my honourable friend for his point and it links to the related point and it links to the related point I want to make. I recently ran a work experience program for a fantastic group of 16-18-year-olds in Aylesbury, and I asked the students to come up with ideas about students to come up with ideas about what more we could do for young people in the country and one of the young groups came straight to the young groups came straight to the point of politics and democracy and law.
I would like to thank the young people in that group for their people in that group for their suggestions. There ask of government was that we look at the school curriculum for a much greater focus on voting systems and political awareness, civic engagement, the rule of law, human rights, and I think they were spot on really in that suggestion and we had great discussions about how this should help increase understanding and engagement and participation in our democracy, and I shared my hope that our manifesto commitment, to lower the voting age from 18 to 16 in general elections will help to do just that.
And I hope we will be taking that forward as a government as quickly as possible. The fundamental point is this. I will give way.
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I thank the honourable member for giving way and I thank the Member for Edinburgh North & Leith for this for Edinburgh North & Leith for this change been brought forward today to support the honourable member agree that actually one of the things we need to continue to have the need to continue to have the conversation is about what it means for people. By creating consistency through the voting system, it AIDS
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that conversation. I thank my honourable friend for her point and I do agree, I think her point and I do agree, I think it's exactly that, if we are going to rebuild trust in democracy and we have to start with the voting system have to start with the voting system people have faith in. To return to the bill, I think we have discussed this fundamental point that we do have this urgent need to rebuild engagement and trust in our engagement and trust in our democracy, and I think today's bill, democracy, and I think today's bill, which makes absent voting more user-friendly and more dependable, is one really important concrete step forward.
Madame Deputy Speaker, step forward. Madame Deputy Speaker, I would urge colleagues across the House, regardless of party or region, to support this bill and help ensure that no voter anywhere in the UK is absent from participating in our democracy,
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participating in our democracy, simply because they are absent on polling day. I would like to thank the honourable member for Edinburgh honourable member for Edinburgh North & Leith and I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate and raise issues on fairness and equality in the UK's democracy. In England, we have seen how absent voting, whether by post or proxy, has empowered thousands of people to make their voices heard, even when life sometimes gets in the way.
Whether that is due to illness, work commitments, accessibility concerns, disability, care and commitments, or simply away on holiday, or in the case of my city, serving in another country. No one should be forced to choose between voting and the demands of everyday life and it is therefore only right that voters in Wales and Scotland have the same protections and act access, way most -- And access, and if we are serious about strength interest in politics, it must make voting easier and not harder.
On that note of making voting easier, it would be remiss of me if I were not to welcome the government's move to allow the veterans ID card to be used as a valid form of identification. Something I know is really welcomed by many residents that have served our country. Madame Deputy Speaker, it is absolutely right that those who have served our country are not excluded from them democratic participation due to IT restrictions. Many veterans, particularly older or more vulnerable, had challenges accessing approved forms of ID, so it is a valid and small but significant step valid and small but significant step in ordering the service and ensuring voices are heard by the ballot box.
voices are heard by the ballot box. Although, the speaker, this bill does not address the voting age, I want to place on record, my strong support for extending voting rights support for extending voting rights to 16 and 17-year-oldss across the UK. And ensure fairness, whether it be by absent voting or by age. Many be by absent voting or by age. Many people in Scotland and Wales already vote in local elections, and it is vote in local elections, and it is time people in Northern Ireland had the same voice.
This bill is a step forward for a more fair and accessible democracy, and a sticky mistake. mistake.
12:41
Amanda Martin MP (Portsmouth North, Labour)
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Amanda Martin MP (Portsmouth North, Labour)
Thank you very much, modern deputies speak of. Can I thank my honourable friend, the honourable member for Edinburgh North & Leith for bringing forward this bill. Devolution has been an interest of mine for a very long time. It was a topic of my masters dissertation, and my first job outside, so happy to be dealing with it again in the concert using affairs Select Committee. It also reminds me that one of the main arguments in favour of an interest in devolution was about freeing up parliamentary time it was considered bizarre that, here we were in the late 20th century,
12:42
Peter Lamb MP (Crawley, Labour)
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Peter Lamb MP (Crawley, Labour)
when it has been debated, feudalism in Scotland are still there, because no government could possibly find the parliamentary time in the UK Parliament to try and resolve these issues and other issues of concern issues and other issues of concern issues and other issues of concern to residents in Scotland. And that highlighted the importance of producing bodies that could grant that time to considering these issues and many other issues on the local basis of what to do best in local basis of what to do best in those areas.
What has come through the Private members Bill today continues to highlight the continues to highlight the importance of trying to secure better parliamentary time in different parts of the UK for the issues that matter to them. At the issues that matter to them. At the importance of devolution to ensuring matters of relevance for Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, R address, as indeed, hopefully England in due course. I note the amendment course. I note the amendment continues with this approach, in empowering the devolved governments ability to make changes in their own particular wife highlights how it makes it possible for the nations to makes it possible for the nations to have the right powers for their citizens to vote in the right way without having to engage with all the problems that come with any actual approach to independence.
So long may that approach continue. I'm gutted to the consultation taking place with the devolved administrations. As I believe that consent is incredibly important part of the process ensuring that our devolution settlement operates well devolution settlement operates well and I believe that this is critical, even though we are still technically a Unitarian system, and we legislate in these areas. But if it survives, it will be have to be one where every part of the United Kingdom played a role in the partnership.
I cannot claim to be a fan of the Elections Act which brought many of these provisions into place. During my time in local government, I was the Chair of the working group at the local government Association set up to go to the provisions of the bill, assisted by representatives and returning officers and representative of office administrators. It would be fair to say that their views were wholly negative. In the context of what the bill sought to do. And many of the arguments did not seem to make huge amount of sense at the time.
Nonetheless, it did produce a number of cross-party completions in relation to that. Which regrettably were not adopted by the LGA until far too late in the process to have any viable impact. Nonetheless, the aspect contained within this aspect contained within this particular bill, I believe, a -- Are positive and should allow greater access for it in Scotland and Wales. And avoid hopefully some of the confusion that comes out of all of this. We have an increasingly confusing set of electoral arrangements as a country.
The fact that we have these many different types of electoral systems now employed, the fact we have different age ranges in different places under different rules about how you do this, that and the other. It creates growing problems with confidence in our electoral system. When people think there is one set of rules at play and in fact there was another in different contexts. It is important to our democracy, I recognise it as a challenge to this, but as far as possible, the general public to understand how the systems operate, how they select their governments, have a use there voices in critical parts of the UK, retaining genuine democratic accountability.
The more that can be done to harmonise arrangements across the entirety of the United Kingdom, harmonised systems to be sure there is a more simple approach for people, in how they go about expressing their views to us, the level of confidence I would argue would be in the system. Certainly having two sets of arrangements around casting your votes. Can't do anything much to encourage people to engage with the process and I think when we look at the general election
What has come through the Private members Bill today continues to highlight the continues to highlight the importance of trying to secure better parliamentary time in different parts of the UK for the issues that matter to them. At the issues that matter to them. At the importance of devolution to ensuring matters of relevance for Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, R address, as indeed, hopefully England in due course. I note the amendment course. I note the amendment continues with this approach, in empowering the devolved governments ability to make changes in their own particular wife highlights how it makes it possible for the nations to makes it possible for the nations to have the right powers for their citizens to vote in the right way without having to engage with all the problems that come with any actual approach to independence.
So long may that approach continue. I'm gutted to the consultation taking place with the devolved administrations. As I believe that consent is incredibly important part of the process ensuring that our devolution settlement operates well devolution settlement operates well and I believe that this is critical, even though we are still technically a Unitarian system, and we legislate in these areas. But if it survives, it will be have to be one where every part of the United Kingdom played a role in the partnership.
I cannot claim to be a fan of the Elections Act which brought many of these provisions into place. During my time in local government, I was the Chair of the working group at the local government Association set up to go to the provisions of the bill, assisted by representatives and returning officers and representative of office administrators. It would be fair to say that their views were wholly negative. In the context of what the bill sought to do. And many of the arguments did not seem to make huge amount of sense at the time.
Nonetheless, it did produce a number of cross-party completions in relation to that. Which regrettably were not adopted by the LGA until far too late in the process to have any viable impact. Nonetheless, the aspect contained within this aspect contained within this particular bill, I believe, a -- Are positive and should allow greater access for it in Scotland and Wales. And avoid hopefully some of the confusion that comes out of all of this. We have an increasingly confusing set of electoral arrangements as a country.
The fact that we have these many different types of electoral systems now employed, the fact we have different age ranges in different places under different rules about how you do this, that and the other. It creates growing problems with confidence in our electoral system. When people think there is one set of rules at play and in fact there was another in different contexts. It is important to our democracy, I recognise it as a challenge to this, but as far as possible, the general public to understand how the systems operate, how they select their governments, have a use there voices in critical parts of the UK, retaining genuine democratic accountability.
The more that can be done to harmonise arrangements across the entirety of the United Kingdom, harmonised systems to be sure there is a more simple approach for people, in how they go about expressing their views to us, the level of confidence I would argue would be in the system. Certainly having two sets of arrangements around casting your votes. Can't do anything much to encourage people to engage with the process and I think when we look at the general election