Live Debate: Lords Chamber

Lords Chamber

Thursday 23rd October 2025

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10:06

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Sometimes. That That this

10:07

Introduction(s): Bishop of Portsmouth

Such Such a.

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Charles Charles the Charles the Third, Charles the Third, by Charles the Third, by the Charles the Third, by the grace

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Charles the Third, by the grace of God of the United Kingdom, of Great Britain and Northern Ireland Great Britain and Northern Ireland and other other realms and territories, King, head of the Commonwealth, defender of the Faith to the right of Reverend, our right trustee and well beloved Jonathan Hugh, Bishop of Portsmouth, greeting. Whereas our Parliament for arduous and urgent affairs concerning us, the state and defence of our United Kingdom, and the of our United Kingdom, and the church is now met at our city of Westminster, we strictly in joining Westminster, we strictly in joining command you upon the faith and love by which you are bound to us, that considering the difficulty of the set affairs and dangers impending, waiving all excuses, you be waiving all excuses, you be personally present at our aforesaid Parliament with us and with the Parliament with us and with the prelates, nobles and peers of our said Kingdom, to treat and give your counsel upon the affairs aforesaid, and this as you regard us and our honour, and of the safety and honour, and of the safety and defence of the said Kingdom and church, and dispatch of the said affairs, in no wise do you omit witness our self at Westminster, the eighth day of September, in the

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fourth year of our reign. I. Jonathan, Bishop of

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I. Jonathan, Bishop of Portsmouth, do swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to His Majesty, King Charles, his heirs and successors Charles, his heirs and successors

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I.

10:11

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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I. I. I.

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To. First oral question Baroness Berger.

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Berger. To ask the question standing in my name on the Order Paper, my

10:12

Baroness Berger (Labour)

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my name on the Order Paper, my Lords, was the maternal mortality rate has slightly decreased recently. This report makes it quite clear that further urgent action is needed. That's why this government has launched an independent investigation into NHS, maternity and neonatal services, with interim findings expected in December. Moving from care for prevention, the publication of a new maternal mortality care bundle, planned for next month, targets the five key areas that disproportionately contribute to maternal mortality. I

10:12

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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thank my noble friend for her reply. If I can ask specifically about the If I can ask specifically about the issue of late maternal deaths and which was significantly higher in this reporting period, and deaths this reporting period, and deaths linked to mental health issues, including suicide and substance use, were the leading cause of late were the leading cause of late maternal deaths. Almost half of women who died by suicide were from the most deprived areas. What can we do to stop the case that if you're from a poor background, you're most likely to take your life during this period? And would the minister consider introducing an urgent consider introducing an urgent referral pathway for women with complex social needs? Well, my noble complex social needs? Well, my noble friend is quite right in her friend is quite right in her observation and in terms of the maternal care bundle, which will be maternal care bundle, which will be a real focus for change and to tackle inequalities, maternal mental tackle inequalities, maternal mental health is one of the areas where it's been identified for urgent

10:13

Lord Patel (Crossbench)

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it's been identified for urgent action, and the reason for that is the ability to improve outcome, but also the ability to reduce also the ability to reduce inequalities. But I can certainly say to her that identified pathways as she described, are also part of the solution that we do have underway.

10:14

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Because there are considerable concerns in.

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Another embrace report and the same message overall again and again, for example, women with black back black women have twice the risk of dying. Asian women have a higher incidence than white women, and we're not addressing the issues that we're not addressing the issues that lead up to these deaths in this. Minority groups can minister the Minority groups can minister the noble Baroness the Minister tell us what what measures the government is likely to take? The maternity review

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addresses? Well, let me say first to your Lordships' House that this Lordships' House that this government is committed to closing the Black and Asian maternal mortality gap. It is unacceptable mortality gap. It is unacceptable that in 2025 that black women are that in 2025 that black women are twice as likely to die in in childbirth. I was speaking with a childbirth. I was speaking with a clinician yesterday who said to me, for every woman who dies, 100 women for every woman who dies, 100 women experience a severe maternal morbidity event such as stroke, morbidity event such as stroke, kidney failure, acute psychosis, which can lead to lifelong health implications.

As the noble Lord has implications. As the noble Lord has referred to. So the maternal care bundle, which we have developed in partnership with embrace, does, for partnership with embrace, does, for example, in propose intervention on the issue of blood clots. These are the issue of blood clots. These are three times as likely to occur in black women and can have tragic circumstances. circumstances. my Lords, there are considerable concerns in Leeds at the service's maternity services in the Leeds Hospital trusts.

Indeed, there are considerable concerns that investigations that are now beginning will take a considerable amount of time. Can the Minister confirm to me that in the inquiry, the ongoing inquiry into services generally, they will be bringing some conclusion to those

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investigations in Leeds as soon as possible? I can give that assurance in

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I can give that assurance in respect of services across the country, in fact, and the independent maternity and Neonatal Investigation will act at pace. It will be chaired. It is an will be chaired. It is an independent investigation and will be chaired by the noble Lady

10:16

Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)

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be chaired by the noble Lady Baroness Amos. But I would also add that the Secretary of State, Wes Streeting, is showing how high a priority this is for us for urgent action by himself chairing the maternal, Maternity and Neonatal Taskforce. And I can say that these will work at pace to bring about the change we need to see. change we need to see.

10:17

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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So I I'm pleased to hear that the noble Lady of the Minister says that this is urgent. So while waiting for the review to take place, the report did call for improved interagency working. So could I ask? Well, the government is waiting for that review. Are there any specific changes with regards to information sharing and coordinated care pathways between maternity services, social services, specialist domestic abuse services and other statutory agencies that the government will ask to be implemented on an interim basis to ensure that as many women

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as possible live. Yeah. I feel it's important that I say we're not waiting for results of investigations or taskforce into in

10:17

Baroness Gohir (Crossbench)

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investigations or taskforce into in terms of taking action as a number of issues that are already in train and making a difference for a just for example, rolling out the maternal mental health services and specialist perinatal mental health services in every area across the country, but to the point that the noble Lord asks about, I give one example. A single patient record will ensure that maternity teams have all the information they need about previous consultations that will be of great assistance and improving safety and efficiency.

My improving safety and efficiency. My Lords, apparently an NHS resolution. Strangely, we're not collecting ethnicity data for maternity ethnicity data for maternity negligence claims. They are now, apparently after I've challenged them, even though this was when minority ethnic women had poorer outcomes. Can the government provide assurances that ethnicity data is now being collected properly? And what assessments has the government what assessments has the government made so far on maternity negligence claims from minority ethnic women? And I'm happy to have that information in writing.

10:18

The Earl of Courtown (Conservative)

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Yeah.

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I'll be very pleased to make that information available in writing. It's an important point. The noble It's an important point. The noble Lady makes and data is key to our advances, but particularly where we are seeking, as I said, to address

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are seeking, as I said, to address inequalities on racial lines. my Lords. The report makes clear

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my Lords. The report makes clear that many women who died experienced multiple intersectional

10:19

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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disadvantages highlighted by the noble Baroness Lady Barker and the noble Lord. Lord Scriven, poverty, mental health, domestic abuse and social exclusion does the noble Baroness minister said that tackling maternity, maternal mortality requires an intersectional approach that brings together health, mental health and social care services rather than treating them in isolation?

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I do agree with that. The core of the observation from the noble Lord. But and that is why the maternity care bundle, to be published next care bundle, to be published next month, to be actioned next year, is so crucial because it picks up the

10:20

Baroness Manzoor (Conservative)

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so crucial because it picks up the point that he's making, which is about the five clinical areas for urgent action. They have been chosen because of their ability to improve outcomes and to reduce inequalities, and also the feasibility of implementation within NHS services, which I know is a matter of great interest to your Lordships' House.

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my Lords, I'm really pleased to hear that the Secretary of State has indicated there will be an independent inquiry at Leeds Teaching Hospital at data is important. So therefore can I ask

10:20

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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important. So therefore can I ask the noble Lady the Minister a what it data generally through the NHS is going to be collated. But more importantly what is the governance structure both in terms of trust chairs and NHS boards, in terms of looking at risk management? Because wherever we've got failings, it's always a failing of leadership. So

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what will how will the government be tackling this? Well, one of the interventions

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Well, one of the interventions aimed, for example, at addressing inequalities, which will I'm sure be of interest, is the delivery of what's called an inequalities dashboard that allows local systems dashboard that allows local systems to monitor using data where inequalities are in place because,

10:21

Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)

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inequalities are in place because, as the noble Lady rightly suggests, if we don't know where there is a problem, we cannot address it. So that in addition to projects on removing racial bias from, for example, clinical education and also example, clinical education and also embedding genetic risk inquiry, all these are very data driven and will these are very data driven and will make a difference in the way that we all seek.

10:22

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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Thinking about leads. Could I ask noble Lady, the minister and particularly following on from the last question of leadership, how can the chief former Chief Executive of the Leeds Teaching Hospitals, who was there at the time that this was happening, then go on to be the Chief Executive of the CQC? Isn't there something that needs to be looked at at recruitment processes, particularly when chief execs have been leading failing services such as the ones in Leeds?

10:22

The Lord Bishop of Leicester (Bishops)

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Oh well, I know what the noble Lord says and I will take his

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comments back to the Secretary of State. Question Lord Bishop of Leicester.

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Leicester. I beg leave to ask the question standing of my name on the Order Paper. my Lords DWP.

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my Lords DWP. Monitors demand for job centre support on an ongoing. Basis, and has well established workforce planning systems.

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workforce planning systems. To make sure we have. The right. People in the right. Place at the right time. These

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Place at the right time. These systems help us to prioritise job centre activities where needed, protecting our most effective interventions and making sure we maintain a constant focus on getting people into work whilst remaining within funding limits and providing

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value for money. I thank the noble Lady, the Minister, for her response. A recent

10:23

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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Minister, for her response. A recent BBC article suggested that capacity has only been created in job centres by reducing the number and length of appointments. One work coach they spoke to said that only having ten minutes with clients means you're just being a benefits policeman, and some work coaches feel that they are not able to provide the necessary supports, in particular to help

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disabled people into work. It's the government. Confidence of being able to improve the employment rate for

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improve the employment rate for people with disabilities. Our Jobcentres. Provide a. Professional.

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Professional. Targeted service. But we recently conducted a thorough review of Jobcentre activity to look at ways in which we can respond to demand without having a negative impact on outcomes for a negative impact on outcomes for claimants or indeed on on benefit expenditure or fraud and error. And after the review, the Department did introduce a series of operational introduce a series of operational changes and the aim was to maintain consistency in jobcentres across the country. However, consistency my country.

However, consistency my Lords isn't the same as uniformity. I mean, it can't be sensible to have the same regime for a 20 year old the same regime for a 20 year old who hasn't worked ever since leaving school, a 40 year old who's recovering from serious illness, and a 60 year old who is actually a 60 year old who is actually working in a job but not earning quite enough to escape from the demands of the Jobcentre. So we're demands of the Jobcentre. So we're exploring ways to adapt the length and the frequency and the channels for appointments, so they're better

10:24

Lord Bellingham (Conservative)

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tailored to the needs of the individual. And that way we'll be able to protect the interventions most effective, but also to try to make sure we direct the resources where they're most needed. And we have now got additional work, which is working specifically on our programmes to support people with health conditions and disabilities. And we have committed to spending £1 And we have committed to spending £1 billion by the end of the decade, customers.

10:24

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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I Lord, sir.

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I was. During my. Time as MP, I made a point of trying to visit local jobcentres

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every year on a very regular basis, and one of my consistent observations is. That all too often.

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Local offices were never properly involved in designing services to address local priorities. So is it not time we've got away from this one size fits all, Whitehall led

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mentality? I suspect the noble Lords been reading on get Written working plan. That's the only explanation for that comment. That's exactly what we want to do. We bet. And he's so right. He's so right on this. We've been saying from the beginning that the one size doesn't fit all. And then what we're looking to do in employment interventions is to work employment interventions is to work closely with local leaders. So we're running a series of trailblazers around the country working with local mayoral authorities, the local local mayoral authorities, the local government.

Because what every Labour mark is different. We do not have a single Labour market. He's quite right. In Britain we have a

10:25

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat)

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quite right. In Britain we have a series of different Labour markets with different challenges, different populations, different employment patterns. And our job is to make sure we respond to those needs. So for example, with youth trailblazers, we've got eight of these right around the country from from the Teesside to the South West, Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, east to West Midlands and London to look at what works. We'll learn from look at what works. We'll learn from that and then help people to make people.

10:26

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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Yeah. My lord, my Lords.

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It's that sounds a very optimistic viewpoint from noble Lady to the minister. But reports are to the minister. But reports are that staff stress levels are at historic highs and many are leaving historic highs and many are leaving for better pay and less stress. And allowing for that, staff shortages allowing for that, staff shortages mean support for less support for vulnerable clients. I wonder if the

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minister could give a more optimistic view than being reported. Yeah.

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I'm not. Lot may be an optimist. I'm also very positive, but I believe in our staff and I understand there are times when this understand there are times when this can be a really stressful job, but there's no question about that. But we've been looking really carefully to make sure that we can predict to make sure that we can predict demand levels and manage our staffing levels accordingly. And one of the challenges that we're asking people to do a different job from people to do a different job from what they did in the past.

I was having a really interesting conversation recently with one of our senior people who's worked on our senior people who's worked on the frontline about who she recruits to be a work coach, because thinks that, you know, you've got to find

10:27

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Labour)

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that, you know, you've got to find people who can have the appropriate levels of empathy, who can motivate people, but also able to have a tough conversation when you need a tough conversation. And one thing I said was where people recruit from, she said. Really different background teachers, people from retail, people from call centres, the emergency services, from some legal officers who be looking for a skill sets and characteristics that can do a really tough job. But we're also investing in our people, creating a work coach academy to upskill them, to give them the tools upskill them, to give them the tools they need to do the job, and investing in AI so they've got the information they need to help the customers.

We can do this and we're going to.

10:27

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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I know. she refers to people with medical conditions, that the medical conditions may be preventing them getting back in to work, would she look at whether there are, in fact, enough health advisers in Jobcentres who could help people refer them quickly? I know that there is some pilots in on mental health advisers, but could she look at whether this

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could be perhaps extended through the trailblazers? That's really interesting. We

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That's really interesting. We what we do have, I know, is advisers working out of GP centres. I mean, for example, in Darwen, in Lancashire, in Braehead, where Lancashire, in Braehead, where actually we're placing people so that when GPS are encountering people with certain kind of difficulties, we can actually

10:28

The Earl of Kinnoull (Crossbench)

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difficulties, we can actually provide employment support right then so that people don't then get out of the Labour market and end up being out for some time. We've also got projects working closely with the NHS for people who are in work, but at risk of falling out of work. If we can support them to stay in the jobs. It's much easier and better for the employer than having them falling out. I don't know if we've actually got GPS or health service working in our in our jobcentres, but what an interesting

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idea. And I'll go off and ask that very question. my Lords, I declare my interest at being the chairman of the charity

10:28

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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at being the chairman of the charity that runs the libraries and museums in Perth and Kinross, in Perth and Kinross. There's a feeling that part of the libraries have a part to play here, and that's because there's a certain amount of stigma sometimes attached with going into a job centre for people who are thinking of needing careers advice or job progress. There's no stigma for going to the libraries, and the libraries in Perth and Kinross have been able to provide all sorts of support, and I wondered if the that.

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I'm very grateful. I think that's a really interesting idea. There are certain people, there are people who are happy to go into a job centre, and there are people for whom that would be really difficult. So actually we are we have a number, we actually we are we have a number, we have a number of jobs around the country. We've also got a number of different services. We're operating at a different places, including libraries, but also youth hubs. I mean, we have we're also testing vans.

We've got mobile vans going

10:29

Viscount Younger of Leckie (Conservative)

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out into communities where people won't come out to us. And for example, there are in Burnley Jobcentre, there are family community work coaches based at a community grocer. Whether they can actually reach out to people. We've also got people working out of city councils, working out of local and all kinds of different areas. But there are specifically groups working in libraries. I'll go and find out if there's any more of that we can do, but I've been assured that they can work really well.

It also, I'm concerned about the future of libraries, and if it's a way to

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make sure there are lots of reasons to go to a place, then it can be a win win. My Lord. I further to the

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My Lord. I further to the questions raised by the Right Reverend Prelate that more than half of job centres are reportedly reducing support for people claiming Universal Credit due to a shortage

10:30

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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Universal Credit due to a shortage of work coaches. Not to do with so much to do with shortened appointment time. So although I take the right reference point, recent data obtained through a Freedom of Information request shows that there were just 16,640 work coaches employed by the DWP in August, the lowest number since March last year. But given this my Lords and the department's plans to place job advisers in GP surgeries and mental health services, how does the government intend to ensure that there are enough work coaches to

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deliver effective employment support across all settings? Well, that is the absolute.

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Well, that is the absolute. That's the that's the question. What we're doing is we have an increasingly sophisticated model for increasingly sophisticated model for mapping demand. And we are so far the number of the noble Lord has given pretty much matches the demand that we're that we're predicting. But we have to do is that if demand rises significantly, then we will have to prioritise. But again, as I

10:31

Oral questions: Detention, suspension and exclusion of autistic children in state schools

have to prioritise. But again, as I said in the beginning, for example, at the beginning, at the moment the standard process is but somebody first comes in to the Jobcentre for the first 13 weeks. We want to see them weekly, but there's no point in treating everybody the same, as I said before. So it's not it's not that we're short. It's not that there is a shortage of work coaches there is a shortage of work coaches necessarily driving this. We do have some turnover, but actually we're looking at faster ways to recruit them.

And at the moment we're happy them. And at the moment we're happy we have the right numbers. The challenge is to make sure the support is in the right place for the right people. If all of the work the right people. If all of the work had just spent all of their time checking ticking everybody's boxes, they're not out there doing the things that only they can do, which is get people into jobs. And that's what we want them to do.

10:31

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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Yeah, yeah.

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So to question, what do you. my Lords I beg leave to ask the question standing might even the Order Paper and declare my interest Order Paper and declare my interest is the vice president National Autistic Society an honour I share with my noble friend, Baroness

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Browning. my Lords, we expect schools to support pupils with.

10:32

Lord Touhig (Labour)

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Special educational needs and. Disabilities or mental. Health needs appropriately. And in all cases.

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in all cases. Schools should consider early. Intervention strategies. Before issuing any form. Of exclusion.

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Of exclusion. We are investing in inclusion behaviour, mental health support and behaviour, mental health support and attendance to build safe, supportive schools where every child can thrive. We trust headteachers to use exclusion based on the individual cases when necessary.

10:32

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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Can I say to my noble friend that is the most helpful answer and welcome. But autistic children are particularly vulnerable to being excluded from school. Sometimes behaviour associated with their autism is confused with disobedience because of a lack of awareness by staff. Now, most schools take the view that every child is responsible for their own behaviour, and that might seem reasonable. But that approach takes no account of the challenges faced by autistic children. So can I ask my noble friend? Would she agree that a strategy aimed at stopping these exclusions is needed and must must

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focus on early intervention and start training? My noble friend is absolutely right.

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right. About that. And also, of course, about the different factors that may lead to.

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lead to. A child's. Behaviour and concerns about that. And it is, of course,

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about that. And it is, of course, very important. That school. Leaders consider the use of early

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intervention strategies of multi-agency assessment to address the underlying causes. Or any contributing factors.

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Or any contributing factors. Towards a pupil's disruptive behaviour, before. Issuing an.

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Issuing an. Exclusion. And schools should arrange those assessments. When concerns arise. Not at the point at

10:34

Baroness Browning (Conservative)

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concerns arise. Not at the point at which there is a trigger for more radical behaviour. And he is, of

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course, right as well. That high quality teaching is the most important in school. Factor for improving outcomes for

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Factor for improving outcomes for all children. And that's why, for example, we're providing continuing professional development to. The.

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The. workforce. Through the universal Sen Services programme, led.

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Services programme, led. By National Association for Special Educational Needs. So I'm grateful to my colleague Lord for grateful to my colleague Lord for asking this question, my to declare my interest as a vice president of the National Autistic Society. When autistic children present challenging behaviour in a classroom setting, there is always a reason setting, there is always a reason for it. Very often it is just seen as general bad behaviour which

10:34

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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10:36

Lord Addington (Liberal Democrat)

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The additional. Training that is now happening for teachers from their initial. Teacher.

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Training through their early career framework, through to

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leadership positions. We are you know, this is not a problem that is yet solved. But we are making important. Progress along the sorts of lines

10:36

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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Progress along the sorts of lines that the noble Lady outlines. Would the Minister give us a

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Would the Minister give us a further assurance that flexibility is something that that the schools is something that that the schools know they have to work in, because rigid rules or disciplinary behaviour is something that will almost certainly trigger adverse reactions from autistic people, and particularly in pupils who don't have that degree of life experience or that degree of perception of the world outside, or a different perception. They've got to have

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flexibility and that must go throughout the system. Yeah. Well, I think my, the noble, my

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Well, I think my, the noble, my noble, the noble Lord is absolutely right about that. And it follows on. From the point made by the.

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From the point made by the. Noble Lady about the need. For a personalised approach, in fact, a personalised approach to all children with special educational children with special educational needs and disability. But I think the point here about the different

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ways in which our autism might reflect. In behaviour or needs in the classroom is a very important one.

10:37

Baroness Bull (Crossbench)

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classroom is a very important one. That's why we need teachers who have received particular training and development, and why we need the ability within all schools to be able to both identify and then respond to children's needs, including those with autism, in the most effective way. And that will, as a noble Lord is absolutely right,

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differ from child to child. my Lords, my Lords. The Equality and Human Rights

10:38

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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The Equality and Human Rights Commission has documented unlawful exclusions of children with special educational needs and disabilities, educational needs and disabilities, including informal removals and off the record practices that may breach the 2010 Equality Act. I. My understanding is that DfE does not currently collect data on unlawful exclusions. So I ask the Minister what assessment has government made of the likely prevalence of the exclusion of autistic pupils? That is off the record. And will government commit to collecting data? Indeed, disaggregated data on awful and unlawful exclusions so that we know the full impact on pupils who are autistic? Well, the noble Lady is absolutely right that schools do have a legal duty under the Equality Act to not discriminate against pupils by excluding them because of their disability, and it would be unlawful to exclude a pupil simply because they have Sen or a disability that the school feels it is unable to meet.

But, for example, and whilst I will write to the noble Lady about the nature of the data that we collect in any future plans, but I think even more importantly, the message that we need to intervene earlier, identify earlier intervene earlier, identify earlier and find a range of ways in which to support pupils is one that is support pupils is one that is constantly being delivered to schools alongside the support and to enable that to happen. But I will enable that to happen.

But I will write about that particular issue in respect of data.

10:39

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Labour)

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I Lords my Lords.

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Would my noble friend accept that autism and indeed ADHD often present autism and indeed ADHD often present differently in boys from how they present in girls, and that girls are present in girls, and that girls are frequently underdiagnosed and under understood because their behaviour can sometimes be challenging in a

10:40

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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can sometimes be challenging in a completely different way i.e. They don't. They're not disruptive, but they can be. Their behaviour can not often result in them simply ducking out of the kind of engagement that we need from them. Can she assure

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the House that in taking forward the training programmes that she's identified for, for teachers, that. Particular issue.

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Particular issue. Will be taken into account? Yes. I think my noble friend

10:40

Baroness Barran (Conservative)

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Yes. I think my noble friend makes a very important point there that builds on the point about the difference in the ways in which autism may well be represented, but but particularly highlights the, the differences as, as as she says. And as I understand it in terms of the way that people might present, depending on their sex. And that is an issue which will need to be considered as we think about the appropriate ways to support children.

10:41

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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my Lords my Lords I wonder if the noble Baroness the Minister could just clarify her response to her Noble friend Lord Tyrie, who I think I heard say was that the government needs a strategy aimed at stopping exclusions, and the noble Lady knows that schools have a very difficult balancing act between upholding the rights of children to have a calm and disrupted education, and those who need additional support. And I hope she's going to reassure the House that we're not going to go down the Scottish route of exclusion.

And then tremendously

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disrupted classrooms and violence towards teachers. Well, I'm sure the noble Lady was listening to my initial response, listening to my initial response, where I said that the government supports headteachers to make the supports headteachers to make the right decision about exclusions. And I also agree with her that all I also agree with her that all pupils have the right to learn in a safe and calm classroom, and safe and calm classroom, and therefore it is sometimes necessary to remove children from the

10:42

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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classroom or even from the school. But I think the point that my noble friend was making was before that decision is made, it is really important that a consideration is given to all of the range of support that might be provided to a child, and the reasons why a child might be behaving in a certain way. And I'm sure the noble Lady agrees with me that that is what good schools would want to do. And what they need is a government beside them and supporting them to have the resource

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that. Fourth oral question for Robertson.

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I know it's a big leap to ask the question, saying my name on the. my Lords.

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connecting. The two things, but. Ministers will. Take all material planning.

10:42

Lord Robathan (Conservative)

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Considerations into account when the final decision is made. Planning ministers must take decisions following the quayside judicial process. That applies to planning, meaning they must take decisions. Fairly based on evidence and planning rules. The government government's committed to the probity of the planning process at all levels to ensure robust and evidence based decision making, and this is a decision for MHCLG Planning Minister, independent of the rest of government.

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my Lords. This issue will go on and on and indeed there is a UCU dummy down the other place this

10:43

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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dummy down the other place this morning. I'm not asking about the incompetent wannabe spies, but I'm asking about the government's motivation. The Prime Minister called in this application, as we know, following a discussion with Xi Jinping, a Chinese official asked the UK government, I quote, to fulfil the obligations and honour its commitments. Now it appears the government is quite literally kowtowing to the Chinese. Will the minister? Assure this House that the warnings given by the security services and others will ensure that this embassy application is refused?

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I'm not going to give the gentleman that assurance from the despatch box. The matter is, as I

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despatch box. The matter is, as I said, being considered properly on planning grounds. We do not recognise the statement that he made as coming from Chinese officials and they the first duty of government is to ensure our safety

10:44

Lord Pannick (Crossbench)

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government is to ensure our safety and security, of course, but all relevant planning considerations will be taken into account when making a decision on this case and the decision being taken by MHCLG is in line with all statutory provisions that regard that apply to planning decisions. The inspector's. planning decisions. The inspector's.

10:44

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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10:46

Lord Fox (Liberal Democrat)

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my Lords. groove of a stock record and play this as.

10:46

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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A.

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But we all know that it's much more than that. Sir Keir has said that the government seeks a long

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term and strategic. Relationship with China. And my Lords, we all know that

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And my Lords, we all know that for a relationship to succeed, there must be gifts and there must be takes. And it's quite clear that takes. And it's quite clear that China really wants this embassy. So if the government accedes to this if the government accedes to this request, what is it expecting to get in return?

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in return? Not for long. It's nothing to see what. Government. I'm.

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Government. I'm. I'm going to repeat what I said. We consider this. I'm sorry, but We consider this. I'm sorry, but this is the case with planning and anyone that has any experience of planning, as I'm sure the honourable gentleman does, will know that gentleman does, will know that that's the case. Planning has to be considered according to the material considerations of a planning considerations of a planning application. There are. There were a number of material considerations in the original application considered by Tower Hamlets, and there was a public inquiry in February on this, where the planning inspector took a

10:47

Lord Garnier (Conservative)

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number of other considerations into account. Since that time, information has been requested of the applicant, and that information and the answers to it will be released at the time of the planning decision. And I don't think it's helpful to comment any further on that. We know the first duty of

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government is to ensure our safety and security, so I'm sure that when we hear about the. Decision.

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Decision. We can consider ourselves whether we think that's been done adequately. In this case.

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adequately. In this case. It's my experience when serving as a law officer that the Director as a law officer that the Director of Public Prosecutions in my time, Keir Starmer, would come and see the law offices every 3 or 4 weeks to discuss criminal cases of particular sensitivity and significance. It's also highly likely, and it's certainly my experience that the planning minister would come and discuss matters of political and

10:48

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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discuss matters of political and planning significance, common sense and experience tells me that that will have happened between the DPP and the attorney and the planning Minister and the law Officer's department in the recent past. Could the government please get off the hook of using expressions such as we do not recognise and other weaselly forms of excuse? Cut to the quick and start telling the truth about

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what is going on. Yeah, yeah yeah that's disgraceful.

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I think there's quite a lot of weaselly words going on in here today. Anyway. I would say that we,

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today. Anyway. I would say that we, you know, whether the Attorney General has been advising the planning minister. Or not, that's a matter for

10:49

Lord Harris of Haringey (Labour)

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Or not, that's a matter for internal consideration. We don't normally release information relating to internal advice that's been provided to ministers.

10:49

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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been provided to ministers. As. The noble Lord will be perfectly well aware, and that has happened

10:49

Lord Harris of Haringey (Labour)

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well aware, and that has happened under all government. So I'm sure he knows that. So all the documents relating to this case will be released with the planning decision in December.

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I know. My Lord.

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Frontbench.

10:50

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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One of the Labour benches. my Lords and I don't wish. To put my noble friend in.

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To put my noble friend in. The position of having to repeat the mantra that she is had to issue several times already. But could she tell us whether in any planning application which goes to ministers for consideration, whether it would indeed be normal practice for the applicant to have made clear the use of all of the spaces in the

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application concerned. Well, I would respond to my noble

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Well, I would respond to my noble friend by saying that on the 6th of August this year, a reference back August this year, a reference back letter was sent to parties seeking further information to assist planning ministers in reaching a

10:51

Lord Stirrup (Crossbench)

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planning ministers in reaching a decision on this case. This related to a representation from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in the Home Office relating to the consolidation of existing diplomatic premises and site security, and redacted drawings originally submitted by the applicant, referring back to parties is routine when further. Information is required, and that information has been forthcoming and is now has been forthcoming and is now being considered.

10:51

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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On. earlier. And I wonder if she could clarify. I thought we just reached agreement.

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We just we did agree with the Lord Trevethin did yourself? I'm obliged to. Maybe. Is she.

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Is she. Saying that if the Cabinet takes the view that. National security is being.

10:51

Lord Jamieson (Conservative)

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Compromised. That the Prime Minister is unable to overrule a decision by the

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Planning Minister? The planning decision. Will be. Taken on material planning.

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Grounds by the planning. Minister, with the having had the submission of all the. Material

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submission of all the. Material information that is required to take that planning decision, then. The Planning. Minister will take that decision

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Minister will take that decision and that decision will be announced together with the documents and the information that was used to make it

10:52

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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information that was used to make it on the 10th of December. Thank you. And I'm also going to

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Thank you. And I'm also going to opportunity. So to speak, to get. Out of the groove. Ministers have delayed the decision on the proposed Chinese embassy. Can the noble Baroness the Minister confirm whether our security services have whether our security services have had sufficient opportunity to feed in to the planning decisions on the in to the planning decisions on the project? And would the government consider amending the Planning and Infrastructure Bill to strengthen the provisions about planning applications with major security implications?

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In response. To the delay, given the detailed nature of the representations that have been provided, there was a need

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to. Give parties sufficient opportunity to respond. And that is why there's been a.

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And that is why there's been a. Delay in the planning. Decision it makes. CLG consider there was more time needed for full there was more time needed for full consideration of the applications. But as the noble gentleman will know, because I know he has great experience in planning, a variation experience in planning, a variation to the timetable is routine when additional time is needed for that additional time is needed for that determination, or to consider new information. Can you repeat your second part of your question?

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second part of your question? No, no, no, I'm sorry. I think it's. my Lords. That concludes the oral questions for today. Any members wishing to leave the chamber at this

10:53

Motion: Report from the Select Committee 'The conduct of Baroness D’Souza'

10:54

Lord Kakkar (Crossbench)

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10:57

Business of the House

accordance with Standing Order 11 Baroness D'Souza be suspended from the service of the House for a period of eight weeks.

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In accordance with Standing Order 11 Baroness D'Souza be suspended from the service of the House on the terms of the Order Paper As many as are of that opinion say, content the

10:57

Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Non-affiliated)

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are of that opinion say, content the country. Not content the contents of a motion to agree the Procedure and Privileges Committee. Report on leave of absence and amendments to the Private Business Standing

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Orders. The Senior Deputy Speaker. my Lords, I beg to move the fourth report from the Procedure and fourth report from the Procedure and Privileges Committee be agreed to. There are two proposals in this report. The first relates to the Leave of absence scheme. The second is a minor amendment to the Private is a minor amendment to the Private Business Standing Orders. The origin of the first proposal was a letter from the convenor of the crossbench from the convenor of the crossbench peers, asking that the committee review the Leave of Absence scheme to address a feeling that the spirit of the scheme has not always been observed.

The Committee recognised that leave of absence is a valuable option that gives noble Lords flexibility, where temporary circumstances mean it is difficult for them to participate in the for them to participate in the House. The committee agreed that strengthening member oversight through increasing the role of the through increasing the role of the Leave of Absence Subcommittee would help ensure the scheme operated help ensure the scheme operated effectively. Lords I Chair the Leave of Absence Subcommittee and the other members of the three Chief other members of the three Chief Whips and the convenor.

The report sets out three changes. The first change is that the clerk of the parliaments will inform the subcommittee of requests for leave of absence, and leave a window of five working days before granting it. The second change is that the subcommittee will meet once a session is run for six months, to consider members on leave of absence and write to those who we feel should be encouraged, either to return to active participation or to return. If these two changes are matters of committee practice, we report them to the House for information.

The third change, my Lords, would give the subcommittee the power to grant or withhold leave of absence to members who have been on leave of absence for an extended period. This is a substantive change requiring amendment of the Standing Orders. This proposal aims to uphold the spirit of the scheme, reinforcing the principle that leave of absence is a response to a temporary circumstances. Only members who had been on leave for an extended period, which in practice would normally be for more than two consecutive sessions, would be subject to this new procedure.

My Lords. Of the 21 members currently only absence, 15 have been on leave for more than two consecutive sessions. If the House agrees, the subcommittee will meet to consider whether to grant leave of absence to those members should they reapply at the start of the next session. We anticipate most members will be pre-cleared at this meeting in a small number of cases where we consider that further extension of the member's leave of absence may be contrary to the spirit of the scheme.

We will engage further with the member concerned. Any formal decision to withdraw or leave of absence would only be taken at the start of the next session. Once the member had reapplied, and only with the unanimous agreement of the subcommittee. My Lords turning to the second proposal in the report. This is a technical amendment to the private business standing Orders to apply the date requirements to hybrid bills. Because hybrid bills are introduced as private bills until they have been declared hybrid by the examiners, promoters are highly unlikely to be able to comply with the specific dates set out in certain private business standing orders.

The proposed change to the Private Business Standing Orders will supply these specific dates in relation to hybrid bills, thereby removing the need for a purely formal meeting of the Standing Orders Committee, in effect, to supply them on each occasion. My Lords the House of Commons will be invited to make the same change in the new future so that the houses are aligned. As with all these changes, the Committee will keep the operation of these latest proposals under review.

I commend the report to your Lordships Lords. I beg to name.

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Is this motion be agreed to? As many as are of that opinion

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As many as are of that opinion say, content to the contrary. Not content. The contents. Have it standing. Order public business. A Senior

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Order public business. A Senior Deputy Speaker Lords. I beg to move the second motion Paper.

11:02

Legislation: Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill – third reading

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Paper. This motion be agreed to as many as are of that opinion say, content. Country not content.

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The. Standing order. Private business. The senior Deputy Speaker.

11:03

Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)

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The senior Deputy Speaker. my Lords I beg to move the third motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

11:03

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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11:07

Introduction(s): Bishop of Portsmouth

11:12

Oral questions: MBrace-UK 2025 report: 'Saving Lives, Improving Mothers' Care 2025 - Lessons learned to inform maternity care from the UK and Ireland Confidential Enquiries into Maternal Deaths and Morbidity 2021-23.'

received very little attention in this House being in Grand committee, it's been a small group of noble

11:12

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Lords who have worked on it as it's gone through the stages in this House, and it has been a great pleasure to work with all of them pleasure to work with all of them across all parties. I want to repeat what I said before. Firstly, that the bill as introduced was a much better bill than its previous incarnation under the last government, and I am extremely grateful to both noble Ladies the grateful to both noble Ladies the ministers for that. They listened and acted upon the concerns that were raised at that time, and reflected many of them in the Bill as it was tabled originally.

I think the same is true of the opposition team. They also, I think, heard team. They also, I think, heard those concerns, and it's been a pleasure that they've been so supportive of many of the changes to

11:12

Baroness Berger (Labour)

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supportive of many of the changes to strengthen the safeguards around the powers. Equally, the engagement from powers. Equally, the engagement from the from the noble Ladies and their officials has been exemplary throughout the passage of this bill. I think it's been a very good I think it's been a very good example of how this this House works best, and I am very grateful to all of them. Not only have they been of them. Not only have they been extremely generous with their time, but also very constructive in their engagement.

Documents such as the Draft Code of Practice have been published in good time, which I think most noble Lords would agree think most noble Lords would agree is not always the case. The detailed document that showed how the bill would work alongside other legislation was a lot of work for legislation was a lot of work for somebody, and but incredibly helpful in helping all of us to understand this better. And as the noble Viscount Younger has just mentioned, I think special mention is merited for whoever produced the famous flowcharts.

I am also grateful to all those who supported me in my efforts to strengthen the safeguards around these new powers, in particular the noble Lady Baroness spin, Noble, Viscount Younger of Leckie and noble Lady, Baroness Leckie and noble Lady, Baroness Kramer and the noble Lord Lord Palmer of Charles Hill, as well as noble Lady, Baroness Box and others. Having said that, of course we were not able to find agreement on not able to find agreement on everything as we saw on Tuesday. So I just want to say to the naval aide to the Minister that I am keen to to the Minister that I am keen to remain keen to see if we can find a constructive solution to those remaining issues that would work for remaining issues that would work for all of us.

And I stand ready to work with her and her team. To that end, before we get into ping pong, I am before we get into ping pong, I am not trying to thwart the intent of this bill and have tried throughout to reflect as closely as possible to reflect as closely as possible what the government says it really needs, and I really do hope that we can find something mutually can find something mutually agreeable during the next stages.

11:14

Lord Patel (Crossbench)

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Well, my Lords, I rise to support this Bill and to add my thanks for all those who have engaged so thoroughly in the detail of this bill. It's been an important learning experience for me in the processes of your Lordships' House experience that I hope I can bring to bear on other business in this place. In addition, I want to speak very briefly to the amendments brought forward at report stage by Lord Verdirame Baroness Lister, myself and Baroness Finn.

Unfortunately, neither Lord Verdirame nor Baroness Lister are in their place today. They've asked me their place today. They've asked me to speak on their behalf. We did not push our amendments to Division push our amendments to Division because of the assurances given us by the noble Lady of the Minister, and I want to thank her for those and I want to thank her for those assurances given at report stage with regard to the issue of with regard to the issue of overpayments, in particular, the commitments to review communications commitments to review communications with those with debts and to explore ways of improving the clarity and ways of improving the clarity and timing of these communications.

May I therefore ask if the Minister is I therefore ask if the Minister is prepared to either writes to the whole House, or commits to giving a written statement to Parliament, written statement to Parliament, setting out the outcome of this review in due course?

11:15

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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In many of the exchanges. On the

11:15

Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Conservative)

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bill, ministers have noted that this bill that we have discussed was a great improvement on the original great improvement on the original bill put forward by the previous government. That's true, but that government. That's true, but that did not make it a perfect bill. And did not make it a perfect bill. And in fact, I think constructively, all sides of the House have improved the contents of the bill. And I really appreciate that. Baroness Sherlock

11:16

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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and Baroness Anderson put forward amendments that were not what we sometimes see in this House rewrites sometimes see in this House rewrites of the bill, but actually based on listening to the debates that we had at committee and so on. And so at committee and so on. And so therefore, I do think it is much improved. I did want to note in improved. I did want to note in general, but relating to this bill, that those of us who have raised issues around civil liberties, privacy rights and transparency were not doing so in order to somehow be soft on those who fraudulently take advantage of public funds in any way whatsoever, but that those civil liberties, privacy rights and

11:16

Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)

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transparency and so on, accountability were based on a firm belief that when the state takes more power, that it is our responsibility, I feel, to represent the public, not just in terms of money that's taken from them, but in terms of the threat to rights that might be taken from them. And I do appreciate that the front bench of the government listened to some of those concerns. I wish I had listened to a few more, but for now, I do think it was a very constructive set of engagements from all sides.

So I appreciated it very

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much. Real quick, my, my Lords, I think

11:17

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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I'm probably the last person to speak in this and. Mull over all that has happened.

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Mull over all that has happened. I would like first of all, to thank sincerely, Baroness Sherlock and Baroness Anderson and her team, and Baroness Anderson and her team, and they have been very, very questions,

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Trying to agree with us, and in fact, offering a meeting to discuss. The particular carer's.

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The particular carer's. Part of. This bill. And which we appreciate and look

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forward to that departmental. Meeting together. With hopefully one of my MPs. So.

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That we can have. A reasonable view towards. Ping pong and.

11:18

Baroness Gohir (Crossbench)

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And what goes forward. I would like to thank, as everyone does Lord

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Vaux. For many things that we work closely on and supported. And also particularly the. Conservative frontbench.

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Conservative frontbench. Which has been it's not been confrontational. It's actually been.

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confrontational. It's actually been. Trying to work for get a better this. Bill has.

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Been quite exemplary in a way. People have worked towards improving the bill in many ways.

11:18

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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the bill in many ways. So I would also. Like to thank my Noble friend

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Like to thank my Noble friend Baroness Susan Kramer, who has worked with me on the bill, and also worked with me on the bill, and also Adam Bould, our legislative and political adviser. Who is who's giving in giving me support throughout. And I think, my Lords, we have amongst us all.

11:19

The Earl of Courtown (Conservative)

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Crossbench, government, Conservative benches, this bench and the bishop's bench. We have all improved the bill and I hope that

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the improvements that we have made will last through. Ping. Pong and.

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Ping. Pong and. Actually end up with a better bill, not a confrontational bill, bill, not a confrontational bill, but one which will actually help public funds, which is obviously the aim of the bill. But at the same aim of the bill. But at the same time, protecting the vulnerable in society who are not really going to society who are not really going to be the paymasters of dealing with errors in the past. So

11:19

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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errors in the past. So congratulations to all and to all in the background of the government. Staff who have made this such a an interesting exercise, even though

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I'm surprised that we've got to Third Reading so quick, so quickly. After report.

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After report. And in an almost. Indecent haste. If all legislation could be so quick, it will be a great advantage to this House and the other House. to this House and the other House. I, I agree, I hope Third Reading

11:20

Baroness Manzoor (Conservative)

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goes successfully. I'm just grateful to all that noble Lords. In fact, that was so nice. I'd like you to carry on, but nice. I'd like you to carry on, but the chief will be to kick me from behind if it when it goes on any longer. But can I just say a couple of things? In response to the Right Reverend Prelate, the Bishop of Leicester, we we're already begun to think about how we can look at making things better in the way that I described, and I'll find the most appropriate way to communicate that.

But but I just assure my stand by the by the assurances I gave at report and also to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer likewise, and to the level Lord Lord Vaux we will I will reflect on what has happened, having given so much ground. I mean, I don't want to spoil the unanimity, but I won't be able to give everything, and I hope I'm not. He won't be surprised to hear that. But, my Lords, I'm finally just to say that as we send the bill down the corridor for its consideration, it's now for the elected House to consider and respond to the changes proposed by this House.

But I'm sure I can speak for the whole House when I say we welcome a swift consideration to ensure we can move consideration to ensure we can move quickly and get on with the important job of addressing fraud and overpayments across the public sector.

11:21

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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Yeah.

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This bill does now pass as many as are of that opinion say, content to the. Contrary, not content the contents habit.

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contents habit. We now come to a motion for debate. Steel Industry (Special Measures) Act 2025. Act 2025.

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Baroness Lloyd of F1.

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2020. It's an enormous honour to address your Lordships House and my noble Lords for the first time in introducing today's debate on the future of the steel industry, I

11:22

Lord Scriven (Liberal Democrat)

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future of the steel industry, I would like to start by thanking all those who have welcomed me. Garter King of Arms, the clerk of the Parliament's Black Rod and their excellent teams and the Doorkeepers who have already had cause to gently shepherd me in the ways of the House for the misdemeanour of trying to take notes. When I came in below the bar to observe noble Lords at oral questions, I've heard much about the civility and respect in this House,

11:22

Baroness Merron, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Labour)

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and these values are important to me. The principle of airing arguments and debating positions

11:22

Oral questions: Staffing levels within Job Centres

arguments and debating positions openly and without rancour. I would also like to thank my supporters.

11:22

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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also like to thank my supporters. Last week, my noble friends, the leader of Baroness Smith of Basildon and Baroness Armstrong of Hilltop, and Baroness Armstrong of Hilltop, and the support of the frontbench team, in particular my Noble friends Lord Young and Lord Collins of Highbury and the Chief Whip, Lord Kennedy of Southwark. I pay tribute Kennedy of Southwark. I pay tribute to my predecessor, my Noble friend Baroness Jones of Whitchurch, for her tireless work in enshrining

11:23

The Lord Bishop of Leicester (Bishops)

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her tireless work in enshrining rights for decent work and embedding online safety rules, amongst many other areas where I'm stepping into other areas where I'm stepping into very big shoes. On the face of it, there is perhaps not so much the links. My journey to this place with the steel industry. Perhaps, though, the common thread is the importance of public and private sector working together and the importance of ensuring our economy is providing ensuring our economy is providing decent jobs for all.

For almost two decades I've worked in the private sector and in development finance, latterly with British International Investment, the UK's development finance institution. We focussed on finance institution. We focussed on the dual mandate of providing a return to the taxpayer with measurable development act impact. The businesses financed and emerging markets spanned major renewable infrastructure, supporting the green

11:23

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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transition to manufacturing, bringing value addition to modern methods of agriculture, all methods of agriculture, all underpinned with high ESG standards. About the pleasure of seeing what access to the internet can bring to women business owners in Nepal, the connectivity that upgraded port infrastructure can bring to infrastructure can bring to businesses in Africa, and how wind farms in Pakistan can be protected against floods through resuscitation against floods through resuscitation of mangroves. At the same time bringing back fishing stocks for local fishermen.

Much earlier in my local fishermen. Much earlier in my career, I have the privilege of working for the former Prime Minister now Sir Tony Blair. I was guided by many in this House, notably my Noble friends Baroness notably my Noble friends Baroness Hunter of Rock and Rock, and Lord Wilson of Sedgefield and later Baroness Morgan of Huyton. That Baroness Morgan of Huyton. That taught me the importance of reaching positions and facts as well as political arguments, but also that political arguments, but also that strong teams are built on laughter and mutual support, as well as hard and mutual support, as well as hard work.

When it came to choose the title I would take upon joining the House, I must admit I struggled a

11:24

Lord Bellingham (Conservative)

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Wales. I enjoy nature hiking in the living world and I live in South London. I have over the past years learned more about his local history, the Great North Wood that is still a corridor between the parks of Brockwell, Sydenham Woods and Crystal Palace. I was intrigued by the way of development and a gradual urbanisation. I wanted something that connected the living environment, history and the places I live, and the somewhat mythical

11:25

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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river came to mind its course trace many of the places I have walked with our dog and family, and though with our dog and family, and though now enclosed, feeds into the Thames, close to my cycle route to work, I close to my cycle route to work, I would also like today to extend a warm welcome to my noble friend Lord Stockwood, who will also give his Stockwood, who will also give his maiden speech today. He brings extensive practical business experience to the House.

Together we serve a government which recognises that a strong economy must rest on that a strong economy must rest on strong foundations. Whether that's our defence capability, energy security or our domestic steel security or our domestic steel capacity, which we are discussing today. That is why earlier this today. That is why earlier this year, when the future of British Steel was in jeopardy, we took

11:26

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat)

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decisive action to support continued steel production at Scunthorpe. We said that we could not and would not let the fires in the blast furnaces be extinguished, and we protected the 2700 employees whose jobs were at immediate risk. The steel making at immediate risk. The steel making communities, whose future depends on British Steel success. My Lords, we British Steel success. My Lords, we have stayed true to our word since our intervention in April. We have

11:26

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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worked tirelessly to secure raw materials and avoid the blast furnaces, having to close prematurely due to insufficient supplies. We have made roughly £270 million available as working capital million available as working capital for British Steel that predominantly covers raw materials, salaries and invoices from SMEs in the supply chain. In other words, essential chain. In other words, essential expenditure, keeping workers safe and protected is our number one priority. Indeed, the government has priority. Indeed, the government has spent almost £4 million on safety critical matters at British Steel since April.

This expenditure will form part of the overall cost of the intervention and will include and be intervention and will include and be included in the Department for Business and Trades accounts for Business and Trades accounts for 2025, 2026. My Lords. British Steel has been working hard to reverse has been working hard to reverse declining production, and in recent months the company with government funding, has been hiring new staff, including apprentices, to ensure the safe and continued operation of the

11:27

Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Labour)

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safe and continued operation of the blast furnaces. Our focus now is on working with Jingye to find a pragmatic, realistic solution for pragmatic, realistic solution for the future of the company. Once that solution is found, we can terminate the directions issued to British Steel and make a statement on the need to retain or appeal the Special Measures Act. Our ambition is to secure the long term viability of steel making at Scunthorpe and indeed the UK steel sector as a whole. That's why over the last few months we have been putting in the

11:28

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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hard work to set this key industry up for long term success. That very much includes the economic prosperity deal we secured with the United States. As a result of that deal, the UK is the only country in the world, the only country to benefit from a preferential 25% rate benefit from a preferential 25% rate on steel and aluminium exports to the US. This gives companies like British Steel a 25% advantage over the competition, and it strengthens our reputation as a trusted supplier our reputation as a trusted supplier of high quality steel and aluminium for global markets.

Of course, we know one of the principal reasons why our steel industry has struggled

11:28

The Earl of Kinnoull (Crossbench)

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why our steel industry has struggled these last few years is because of global access capacity. Countries choosing to flood the market with choosing to flood the market with cheap steel in a bid to quash healthy competition. We are calling healthy competition. We are calling that practice out. Indeed, this earlier this month, I joined ministers from partner countries at ministers from partner countries at the Global Forum on Steel Excess Capacity in South Africa. The UK lobbied hard to develop a comprehensive framework for joint action to address global steel excess capacity by June of next year, and that's something my ministerial counterparts have agreed

11:29

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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to. We must continue to act multilaterally. On the 7th of October, the European Commission October, the European Commission proposed a new steel trade measure on imports to replace their current steel safeguard. They will need to take this proposal through their legislative processes, member states legislative processes, member states and through engagement within the WTO and with their free trade agreement. Partners, including the agreement. Partners, including the UK. I wish to reassure members of the House, the sector and steel at the House, the sector and steel at the sector and steel communities that we are taking this matter extremely seriously and we are extremely seriously and we are determined to find a solution.

We will always defend our critical steel industry and have already engaged the EU at ministerial and official level. To understand the official level. To understand the details of this proposal, it it's vital that we protect trade flows between the UK and EU, and we hope

11:30

Viscount Younger of Leckie (Conservative)

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between the UK and EU, and we hope there is a way to work with our closest allies to address global challenges, rather than adding to challenges, rather than adding to our industry's woes. We reserve the right to take any action in response to any changes to our trading to any changes to our trading relationships. The Minister for industry spoke to representatives of the steel industry on the 9th of the steel industry on the 9th of October to listen to their concerns, and reconfirmed that we will do everything in our power to support a resilient and forward looking steel sector.

Closer to home, we have been creating the right conditions for the UK steel sector to thrive. We are reducing electricity costs for steel producers by increasing network charge discounts through the

11:30

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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British industry. Supercharger. We are strengthening current steel safeguard measures to support our safeguard measures to support our producers, while ensuring the UK maintains a steady and reliable supply, and we're fulfilling our promise to create a pipeline of big promise to create a pipeline of big infrastructure projects. Take the third runway at Heathrow. This will third runway at Heathrow. This will demand at least 400,000 tonnes of steel, primarily to reinforce concrete beneath tarmac. That's concrete beneath tarmac. That's eight times the amount of steel used in the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

I know in the Sydney Harbour Bridge. I know the House will agree with me that when construction firms are building roads, runways and railways here in Britain, they should make full use of British Steel wherever they can. Indeed, that's why we have changed government procurement rules. Our new steel public procurement notice new steel public procurement notice will ensure that UK made steel is

11:31

Oral questions: Detention, suspension and exclusion of autistic children in state schools

considered for all public projects, and we're building on this momentum. We intend to publish a new steel

11:32

Lord Touhig (Labour)

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We intend to publish a new steel strategy for the UK. The industry

11:32

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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will require investment, modernisation and decarbonisation in order to compete in the global economy. To that end, we accept the need to look seriously at options for primary steel making in the UK. Late last year, we asked independent experts from the Materials Processing Institute to conduct a review into the viability of future primary steel making technologies. Their findings and recommendations will also be published soon. It goes without saying that we would want to retain this capability here in the UK, but we have to be realistic.

There has to be a strong business case with the private sector, not British taxpayers leading the

11:32

Lord Touhig (Labour)

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charge. Our steel strategy will cover this and the additional steps we intend to take in creating the pro-growth business environment for UK steel. We do not underestimate the scale of the challenges facing the steel sector today, whether that's in costs, competition or climate change. We can't promise to solve all these challenges solve all these challenges overnight, but equally, this government will never watch from the sidelines. We will always be on the sidelines. We will always be on the pitch.

We've shown that in our intervention at British Steel, we've shown it in the actions we're

11:33

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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shown it in the actions we're supporting with Liberty Speciality Steels, where we're supporting the Official Receiver to find the right buyer who can offer the right support for the workforce and the company. And we've shown it to in company. And we've shown it to in the much improved deal with secured for workers of Port Talbot, a deal for workers of Port Talbot, a deal delivered alongside £500 million of investment from government to support their transition to a low support their transition to a low carbon electric arc furnace.

With carbon electric arc furnace. With the government committed to fixing the foundations of our economy, we will ensure that our steel sector will ensure that our steel sector plays a vital role in Britain's

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future. I beg to move. Congratulations to noble Lady on her maiden speech. The question is her maiden speech. The question is that this motion be agreed to.

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that this motion be agreed to. my Lords, I am delighted to be following our newly appointed Pierre following our newly appointed Pierre and Minister my Noble friend Baroness Lea, and I am most grateful

11:34

Baroness Browning (Conservative)

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Baroness Lea, and I am most grateful to the usual channels for allowing me to do so. It is quite something to be standing at the despatch box to make one's maiden speech. Never having been a parliamentarian

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before, and to do it so skilfully and eloquently. Yeah.

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Yeah. My noble friend has had a stellar career to date in a wide range of career to date in a wide range of jobs here and overseas where people cooperate, deals are made and cooperate, deals are made and business gets done, and she will bring all that wealth of experience bring all that wealth of experience to her role in your Lordships House. Yes, I was my noble friend, or even Yes, I was my noble friend, or even Lloyd's as she was then the first boss.

She is one of our Guildford boss. She is one of our Guildford Three, along with James Purnell and Tim Allen. Close school friends, ferociously intelligent, who from

11:35

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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ferociously intelligent, who from 1990 came at various periods in their university holidays to work in Tony Blair's office as researchers. She joined us permanently in 1993, aged 23, and stayed the entire course. One of the most consequential individuals of the Blair administration, my noble friend, can grasp and synthesise detail, conscious of the bigger picture. She is not noisy or showy, but firm and straight, clear and crisp. She still has the face of an angel, but she also has, and I hope I can get away with it in this debate.

Balls of steel. The late Baroness McDonald's famous prerequisite for success in politics. We have all been on the end of my noble friends withering look, including many times Tony Blair, who said of her that most of all, she was so transparently honest and fair to everyone that she exerted a calming influence on the madhouse. She will very soon discover that this House is of a discover that this House is of a very different order to that one, as I myself learned in the British I myself learned in the British Steel debate on Saturday, April the 12th.

This year, when I was a very 12th. This year, when I was a very new member of the House, and when the commitment to today's debate was the commitment to today's debate was made. I was pleased then that the government acted, say decisively on government acted, say decisively on what became a historic day. It was the first time I had been present the first time I had been present for a debate in its entirety, and like me, my noble friend will come to appreciate the depth and spread to appreciate the depth and spread of knowledge of our noble lords and the dignified and respectful nature the dignified and respectful nature of our exchanges.

I advise my Noble friend to listen to the many friend to listen to the many experienced people on all sides of the House. Some she may disagree the House. Some she may disagree with, but she will learn a lot from them, as they will surely learn from her. Yeah. Yeah.

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My own contribution to this debate is not borne from steel expertise, although I am familiar expertise, although I am familiar with the industry's vital importance through my work at BP and through my work at BP and Anglo-American and my association with Tata Steel. When I was working with Tata Steel. When I was working at the Royal Academy of Engineering, I had declared these interests in the members register. The deal.

11:38

Baroness Bull (Crossbench)

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the members register. The deal. Of a government strike. With Tata over Port Talbot last year. As my noble friend has said, 500 million of investment to support the transition to electric arc furnaces, better terms for workers, 50 million investment in the local community to help people learn new skills and support the supply chain. This has ensured the site's long term sustainability. My Noble friend Lord Murphy well, in his own inimitable way, advocate much better for Port Talbot than I.

I, I was very pleased this act was passed with such strong cross-party support

11:38

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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in April. I was proud this House recognised the urgent need to recognised the urgent need to safeguard national capability, as well as thousands of skilled jobs in well as thousands of skilled jobs in Scunthorpe, the UK's only remaining production capacity for making primary or virgin steel essential for infrastructure, defence and energy projects. The act extended energy projects. The act extended beyond just saving the steelworks. It also began to set out a clear, It also began to set out a clear, long term vision for ensuring the UK retains its sovereign capability, as many noble Lords have argued before, reliance on a volatile global supply would expose the UK to significant would expose the UK to significant economic and security risks.

I commend the government for standing up for UK steel making and seeking a pragmatic commercial solution that

11:39

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Labour)

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supports decarbonisation, safeguards taxpayers interests and protects taxpayers interests and protects jobs. Up to 34,000 direct jobs and 42,000 in the supply chain. I was 42,000 in the supply chain. I was chaired to read recently that British Steel is enrolling its first apprentices in over three years. As I've said, I've spent much of my working life in the engineering sphere and I will always advocate for it. Engineering is essential in steel production, and in turn, steel is the backbone of civil engineering.

The relationship is symbiotic. The steel industry is not just a supplier of raw material, it

11:40

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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is a driver of engineering progress. Regions with strong steel industries often become hubs of engineering excellence, fostering apprenticeships, innovation and apprenticeships, innovation and advanced manufacturing. I used to do a talk in schools entitled naked in a talk in schools entitled naked in a field to highlight the prime importance of engineering. I could importance of engineering. I could have said the same in relation to steel. Without either of them there would be no buildings, bridges, skyscrapers, railways, no wind turbines, pipelines, factories,

11:41

Baroness Barran (Conservative)

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turbines, pipelines, factories, machinery or tools, steels. Essential integration into every Essential integration into every major engineering discipline makes it vital to national development, it vital to national development, technological innovation and the transition to a sustainable future. Steel will be essential in the precision engineering of the new generation of small modular nuclear generation of small modular nuclear reactors, especially the reactor pressure vessel. The industry pressure vessel. The industry supports a highly skilled engineering workforce, including metallurgists, structural, metallurgists, structural, mechanical, electrical and chemical engineers, mechanical designers and process engineers.

The Royal Academy of Engineering has in place R&D of Engineering has in place R&D partnerships between academia, government and the steel sector. I government and the steel sector. I warmly welcome this government's commitment to supporting the future of our steel industry. And while I understand the phrase considering all options during this process of all options during this process of consultation, I urge ministers to come forward sooner rather than later with their promised steel plan later with their promised steel plan and its place in the government's ten year industrial strategy.

Many ten year industrial strategy. Many present and future engineering jobs depend on it. I am looking forward depend on it. I am looking forward to hearing from my Noble friend Lord Blackwood, today's other new Blackwood, today's other new minister, also making his maiden speech from the despatch box.

11:42

Baroness Smith of Malvern, Minister of State (Education) (Labour)

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Stop!

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I beg your pardon? I'm sorry. I beg your pardon, Lord Stockwood. I beg your pardon. Today's other.

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Today's other. New minister also making his maiden speech from the despatch box.

11:42

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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maiden speech from the despatch box. I do not know how it works. When a minister closes a debate with his maiden speech, but in lieu of anyone following him to recognise his first outing, I warmly welcome a noble noble Lord and know that he will be a tremendous asset to our House, as will my noble friend there. with.

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The noble Baroness Lady Hunt of. Oak Ridge, just to join with her

11:43

Lord Robathan (Conservative)

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Oak Ridge, just to join with her in congratulating. The noble Baroness Lady Lloyd. Of Efrat, on what. I thought was a magnificent maintenant speech. If I'm allowed to say that.

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And I'll return to the content in a few moments, because.

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a few moments, because. It gives me also an opportunity to join with the noble Baroness in

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to join with the noble Baroness in praising the government Chief Whip for having agreed to. This.

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This. Debate, it's important to remind ourselves. Of how this has all happened.

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Of how this has all happened. And evolved. But certainly I just say this to the noble Baroness Lady say this to the noble Baroness Lady Lloyd of effort. She has a very

11:44

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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impressive record of service, in. Particular a great deal of knowledge about the issues which she's going to face in office. She has an unrivalled opportunity to bring substance to the promises that were

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made at the last election. And I think everyone will. Wish.

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Wish. Her well in fulfilling the.

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Destiny that Baroness. Hunter prophesied for her. Although I. Am not sure.

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Am not sure. That she will be happy with 1 or 2 of the other comments which the noble Baroness mentioned.

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noble Baroness mentioned. About her background. Of which I was completely

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unaware. But I must say I loved. Her tribute. To the. River network that. London is.

11:45

Lord Pannick (Crossbench)

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London is. Proud. To have, and I think they will be raising a glass in the fray will be raising a glass in the fray in Brixton tonight to praise what was an outstanding contribution to this debate. Well, back to where we this debate. Well, back to where we have come from. I just say to the government Chief Whip, when we look government Chief Whip, when we look back at what happened on. That Saturday, the 12th of April, when Saturday, the 12th of April, when the noble Lord, Lord Fox and I wound up a debate, and I with moving an up a debate, and I with moving an amendment for a sunset clause.

And to. to.

11:45

Lord Berkeley (Labour)

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Have a. Parliament.

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Praise the government Chief Whip, and I thought it was the House of Lords at its best that Saturday of responding so positively to the fact we need this debate. And I'm just

11:46

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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we need this debate. And I'm just sad the other place is not having what had Lord Fox's amendment been accepted, would have been a debate also on this subject, because we really could not envisage that so little has happened to bring about the Steele strategy, which was referred to by the noble Baroness.

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And in a way, this debate is not well timed, although. We all thought it. Would be, because we have yet to

11:46

Lord Fox (Liberal Democrat)

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Would be, because we have yet to receive the Steele strategy. Where is it? It was referred to as a concept by the noble Baroness in her speech, but it's now over six months since we last debated the steel Industry Special Measures Bill, which became an act that very day. And there have been six months of delayed drift and indecision, which I believe is a direct result of.

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The government's inability to get a firm grip on a serious situation.

11:47

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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a firm grip on a serious situation. So where is the plan we've been promised and promise to, a comprehensive steel strategy, and yet we're still waiting. So just let's go briefly through the timeline. In December 2024, the then Secretary of State for business, Jonathan Reynolds, told us that the government would publish a steel strategy by spring this year. It would, he said, and I quote, look seriously at the options to improve steel capabilities across the whole supply chain, including primary steel making in the UK.

And as a result, when we came to debate this emergency legislation on the 12th of April, we tabled that sunset clause and we were told by the then Secretary of State that it was unnecessary, he said, and I quote, I do not want these powers for a

11:48

Lord Garnier (Conservative)

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minute more than is necessary. Oh my Lord, it's now October, and I must ask, when precisely will these ask, when precisely will these powers cease to be necessary? Between February and March this year, the government ran a year, the government ran a consultation on the strategy. By July we were told that it would be published later this year. Then, in response to a written question on the 4th of September, the government the 4th of September, the government repeated the same refrain.

Later this year. My Lords, here we are this year. My Lords, here we are deep into October, and no hint of any such strategy has yet emerged. We really need to see this strategy. We really need to see this strategy. I understand from meetings we've been holding on these benches with been holding on these benches with those affected, that there was an opportunity for the new Secretary of State to Chair the body that would involve the steel strategy last

11:49

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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involve the steel strategy last month, but. Then at the last moment, the meeting was postponed and the meeting has still to take place. Now, I just say this when the Conservative Party was in government, we demonstrated a clear and practical commitment to British steel industry. Britain's steel industry, not through slogans or soundbites, but through targeted investment and partnership. It was a Conservative government. That provided the £500 million grant to

11:49

Lord Harris of Haringey (Labour)

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support the transition to electric arc furnace production at Port arc furnace production at Port Talbot, already referred to by the two previous speakers, which I believe was a forward looking believe was a forward looking measure designed to secure jobs and ensure that British Steel remains competitive in a constantly changing global marketplace. But government must surely recognise that nationalisation is simply not sustainable, especially in its current form. British Steel was losing around about £700,000 every losing around about £700,000 every single day, and it's now the taxpayer who are going to have to

11:50

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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taxpayer who are going to have to shoulder that burden. According to Sky news, the cost of full nationalisation is estimated to be between 4 and £5 billion, an extraordinary sum by any measure. The office for National Statistics has provided the first official has provided the first official assessment of the impact of this decision on public finances. Its decision on public finances. Its analysis makes grim reading. The ONS concluded that the move to nationalise British Steel will increase public sector net debt by approximately £600 million, with a further £900 million of financial pressure expected under the government's own preferred preferred

11:51

Lord Stirrup (Crossbench)

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fiscal measure. So nationalisation is not a solution. It's a ruinously is not a solution. It's a ruinously expensive illusion. It places an enormous burden on the public purse, while offering no credible plan for while offering no credible plan for long term competitiveness. In one of our strategic industries, I help all our strategic industries, I help all sides of the House will agree that we want to have a strong industrial

11:51

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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we want to have a strong industrial base in Britain. The strength of our industry determines the strength of our economy, our communities and our economy, our communities and indeed our nation. Yet this government's approach since the government's approach since the election has shown a profound misunderstanding of what it truly means to build that strength. And means to build that strength. And what the government does is, I fear,

11:52

Lord Jamieson (Conservative)

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as damaging as what it fails to do. A whole series of policies are combining to make the United Kingdom increasingly unattractive, frankly, increasingly unattractive, frankly, unaffordable, place to invest in. I do, of course, refer to the jobs tax, so-called the ill conceived unemployment bill, which will be returned to next week, rejected almost universally by business and the government's rigid ideological pursuit of net zero targets pursued without realism or regard for

11:52

Baroness Taylor of Stevenage, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Housing, Communities and Local Government) (Labour)

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competitiveness. US steel has stated competitiveness. US steel has stated that the US steel industry has. UK steel has said that it has a hand steel has said that it has a hand tied behind its back as it faces electricity prices up to 25% higher electricity prices up to 25% higher than its European competitors, let alone its global counterparts. Uncompetitive power prices pose a threat to jobs future investment and threat to jobs future investment and threatened to harm the government's own net zero.

Just three days ago, own net zero. Just three days ago, the Richard States ambassador to the UK, Warren Stevens, said he had told the Prime Minister directly that if the Prime Minister directly that if the UK aspires to attract more foreign direct investment from the foreign direct investment from the United States, we have to lower our energy costs. He went on to say, and energy costs. He went on to say, and I quote him verbatim, when I meet with British business leaders, with British business leaders, whether on AI, technology, agriculture or manufacturing, the message is the same high energy prices are holding back growth.

We've already had reference to Sir Tony Blair, not a man who's always echoed the Conservative Party on economic matters, but he's today quoted as urging the government to scrap their arbitrary clean power

11:54

Motion: Report from the Select Committee 'The conduct of Baroness D’Souza'

targets a moment of clarity that ministers would do well to heed. In ministers would do well to heed. In particular the noble Baroness, the Minister. We understand my notes. There are global challenges, of course, given China's approach of heavily subsidising its steel industry, we know it makes it

11:54

Lord Kakkar (Crossbench)

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industry, we know it makes it difficult for British steel companies to compete. The imposition of tariffs by the European Union is also unhelpful. While we may recognise that some forms of state recognise that some forms of state aid can incentivise private sector investment, ministers must be cautious about introducing large subsidies, all paid for by the taxpayer subsidy, especially excessive and sustained subsidy inevitably distorts markets and leads to misallocation of capital. leads to misallocation of capital.

As resources are lured towards the production of inherently uncompetitive goods and services. The World Trade Organisation, to The World Trade Organisation, to which we've all already heard. We just need to know what further discussions have taken place with discussions have taken place with the World Trade Organisation since. During the UK's statement to China's Trade Policy Review, the UK statement said and I quote, we call on China to rejoin international efforts to remove market distorting subsidies which support excess capacity in steelmaking.

So what's the government going to do? We look forward to the maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Stockwood. What does the government intend to do to exert greater pressure through the WTA to ensure China addresses the harmful and distorting subsidies, the foundation of a strong industrial base, whether in steel or in any other vital sector, lies in lowering the cost of production and creating the conditions in which businesses can compete and thrive. The principal challenge of our age in steel production is a technological one, but the necessary new technologies are now emerging, and we must decide whether we want to be at the forefront of them.

If we want steel production, be it new steel or recycled steel, to become greener, we shall need more electric power. Lots and lots of it, and at a price which is truly competitive, that will require investment and a truly national effort. Unfortunately, my Lords, I believe this government is wilfully making the UK increasingly unattractive for both domestic and foreign investment, threatening skilled jobs across the country. My Lords, Steel is essential not only for our infrastructure and economic development, but also for our national defence.

I'm so glad that there is now some form of consensus across the parties that this is a question not only of emerging technologies, subsidies and tariff policy, but also of steel security. The government has got to create an economic environment in which the steel industry, indeed all industries, can thrive, expand and flourish, not merely hunker down and survive. The forthcoming budget in November and the long delayed steel strategy has got to contain concrete measures to reduce long term energy costs, restore our competitiveness and give British industry the stability and confidence it so urgently needs.

Yeah, my Lords, urgently needs. Yeah, my Lords, could I join?

11:58

Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Non-affiliated)

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Baroness Hunter of rocks and Lord Hunter would also welcome Baroness Lloyd over threat to her rightful place here in your Lordships House. And we look forward to your continued public service. And I also look forward to Lord Stock Wood's maiden speech, but also in closing the debate, because it is a very important debate, and it is a privilege for me to contribute to today's debate on the six month review. As we heard earlier, as suggested, which was requested by my close friend and colleague Lord Fox on this Steel Industry (Special Measures) Act 25.

For me, it's not just about industrial policy, it's personal. I grew up in Sheffield, a steel city. My grandfather melted the my uncle rolled the slabs, and my father worked the lines, the clangs of the metal heat of the furnaces and the proud, skilled Labour shaped my childhood. Steel isn't just an abstraction for me. It's part of my family history and story. That's why I feel so strong that the United Kingdom most retain a viable, resilient steel industry. As one respected industry leader recently reminded me earlier this week that we can import most of what we need, but doing so would make us vulnerable, wasting vast quantities of scrap metal we produce each year and send the wrong signal about Britain's commitment to

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manufacturing. So the House of Lords library, my Lords, the briefing that we got makes it. Clear that.

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Clear that. The act was borne out of urgency earlier this year, when British Steel at Scone four, was on the brink of collapse. Earlier this brink of collapse. Earlier this year, the government stepped in with emergency powers to protect our last remaining blast furnace capacity. remaining blast furnace capacity. Those powers allowed ministers to direct operations, secure the supply chains and prevent mass redundancies. It was an extraordinary step, but also a necessary step. Losing that necessary step. Losing that capability would have meant losing control of the foundations of industry critical to our industry critical to our infrastructure, defence and energy transition.

Six months on, it is right that we take stock. The right that we take stock. The government deserves credit for quick acting quickly. The immediate global acting quickly. The immediate global goal to keep the furnaces operating and safeguarding jobs was achieved. Production at Scunthorpe continues, apprenticeships have been resumed and the supply contract with Network and the supply contract with Network Rail has been secured. Support has been evident elsewhere in Wales, with Tata's transition plants at Port Talbot and in South Yorkshire, where the government ownership of Sheffield Forge masters, and the Sheffield Forge masters, and the stabilisation of Liberty Steel assets have provided a vital safety net.

These steps have kept the industry alive, but survival alone is not enough. My, my Lords, we now need a clear plan of recovery, competitiveness and long term renewal. The truth, my Lord, is that the steel industry remains fragile. For decades, successive governments have allowed competitor nations to erode our manufacturing base. The global market is oversupplied, prices are weak, and energy costs, as we've heard earlier, are punishing, often 20 to 25% higher than in France or Germany. At the same time, China has used still production as an instrument of economic power, floating world markets and depressing prices.

British producers are fighting simply to stay afloat, unable to generate profits needed to modernise and decarbonise. We cannot allow that cycle of decline to continue. We must now focus on the right structures for a sustainable, competitive steel industry. And I give an example of one resolution of the current distribution of manufacturing capabilities that could be possible flat production centred at ports, albeit long production anchored in Scunthorpe, and specialist and high grade steel concentrated in South Yorkshire. Building on the expertise of Sheffield Moor Forge masters and the wider cluster of firms in around the city, this balance configuration would make the best use of our regional strengths and existing infrastructure, while preserving critical national capabilities.

In my own region, there's a real chance to build a coherent future. The assets of Sheffield Forge Masters, Liberty Steel and other local producers could be aligned to optimise production and share investment in technology and skills. Therefore, I call on the government to establish the South Yorkshire Steel Task Force, bringing together industry experts, local authorities, trade unions and private investors. Its jobs should be to develop a plan for collaboration, modernisation and growth across the cluster and obviously something similar could also happen around Scunthorpe and in South Wales.

We have the skills, the traditions and the engineering excellence. What we need is coordination and commitment as we look beyond stabilisation. My Lords there are three key priorities that must shape government policy competitiveness, decarbonisation and the investment environment. So let

12:03

Legislation: Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill – third reading

me start with the first. The single greatest burden on UK steelmakers

12:03

Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)

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greatest burden on UK steelmakers remains energy prices. Have we heard earlier well, less industrial electricity costs are bought in line electricity costs are bought in line with those of our European competitors. We will never achieve a level playing field. I call on the government to act decisively, government to act decisively, whether through long term pricing arrangements, industrial tariffs or other measures to ensure energy is

12:03

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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affordable and predictable. This is essential if the industry is to plan investment and private capital. Let investment and private capital. Let me move to now to decarbonisation. Steel amounts to around 13% of UK's Steel amounts to around 13% of UK's manufacturing emissions. Transition to cleaner processes is non-negotiable, my Lords, but that non-negotiable, my Lords, but that shift from blast furnaces to electric furnaces and ultimately to a hydrogen based steelmaking a hydrogen based steelmaking requires huge upfront investment. Government support must therefore be sustained and strategic capital sustained and strategic capital grants, tax investments and partnerships that enable the sector to innovate rather than retreat.

to innovate rather than retreat. Britain should be the world lead the world in low carbon steel, not watch world in low carbon steel, not watch others do it first. And in terms of investment and ownership, once stability is achieved, it is right stability is achieved, it is right that most of the industry should return to private ownership, the exception being Sheffield Forge Masters, whose defence role justifies continued public ownership. But no private investor is going to commit funds unless they have confidence in the policy environment.

That means predictable regulations, fair trade policy, access to affordable energy and an audible signal from the government that steel making in Britain is a long term future. We must not forget the people in the communities, my Lord, behind these furnaces. When a steel work closes, it's not only a plant that closes the community that unravels. And I know that from my own experiences, as my father lost his job in the Sheffield steel industry in the 80s, therefore, the government should learn from past mistakes and ensure that regional regeneration, retraining and skills investment are embedded in every stage of this transition.

And South Yorkshire in particular can become a centre for advancing green steel technology. Combining our historic expertise with the jobs for the future, the United Kingdom produces millions of tons of scrap metal each year, yet we export much of it only to imports to finish steel back. That makes little economic or environmental sense. My Lords, our modernised steel sector could turn that scrap into high value products here at home, supporting a circular economy and reducing our dependency on volatile international markets.

Retaining steel making capabilities, not a matter of national resilience, is also a matter of national resilience, my Lords. But for railways and shipbuilding to wind turbines and defence equipment, steel remains a silent foundation of modern life. If it is not made of steel, my Lords steel has almost certainly been used in its making. The Steel Industry (Special Measures) Act gives significant powers to ministers, including the ability to direct private operators and extreme take control of assets.

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These powers were justified in an emergency, but they must remain temporary and transparent. And proportionate.

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And proportionate. We must now move from emergency intervention to a strategic renewal of my Lords for crisis management to confidence building, my Lords respected. The industry leader that respected. The industry leader that I quoted at the start concluded stabilising UK steel industry is stabilising UK steel industry is essential, but unless the wider environmental allows manufacturing environmental allows manufacturing to compete globally, we will find ourselves back in crisis. That warning must be heeded. We cannot warning must be heeded.

We cannot keep repeating the same cycle of decline, rescue and retreat. Steel built this nation, my Lords, its bridges, its railways, its factories, its ships. It gave factories, its ships. It gave dignity and purposes to places like Sheffield, Scunthorpe and Port Talbot. It can also help build the Talbot. It can also help build the low carbon, high tech Britain of the future if we choose to back it. So future if we choose to back it. So let's turn this six month review into a new beginning.

Let's give our steel communities stability,

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steel communities stability, investment and respect they deserve. Hey, yeah. Very good.

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Very good. Brilliant. My Lords the debate on Steel Industry (Special Measures) Act 2025 with the outset that we congratulate the Minister, Baroness Lloyd, on her excellent maiden speech, and I look forward to the maiden speech of Lord Stockwood. I thought I chaired the manufacturing commission and manufacturing used to make up 30% of GDP in the UK in the 1970s. Now it makes up less than 10% and yet the UK, with less than 1% of

12:08

Viscount Younger of Leckie (Conservative)

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the world population, is the 11th largest manufacturer in the world in largest manufacturer in the world in absolute terms. And that to high quality manufacturing steel. Of course, when you think of manufacturing is as large and heavy manufacturing is as large and heavy scale manufacturing as you can get. My Lords, I come from the smallest My Lords, I come from the smallest minority community in the world, the Zoroastrian Parsis. There are just Zoroastrian Parsis. There are just 100,000 of us in the world.

And I would say we came as refugees from would say we came as refugees from what is today Iran in Persia over a thousand years ago and settled in India, a country that gave us refuge. And now there are just over 50,000 Parsis in, in in India, 5000 here in the UK. And the Parsis have here in the UK. And the Parsis have excelled in just about every field, including in industry and the most including in industry and the most famous industrialist in India, I would say is Jamshid Tata, the would say is Jamshid Tata, the founder of the Tata Company.

The Tata Iron and Steel Company was founded by Jamshid Tata and founded by Jamshid Tata and established by Sir Tata in 1907, and it started producing steel in 1912. it started producing steel in 1912. When this idea was put forward, a British official said, I will eat every pound of steel rail they succeed in making. Well, he certainly ate his words, and today Tata as a group, is a valuation of over $500 billion, one of the largest conglomerates not only in India but in the world.

And of course, here in the UK, owners of Tata Steel and of Jaguar Land Rover, we have a situation in the UK with the steel industry, as speakers before have said, has struggled to be competitive with all the headwinds against it, tariff uncertainty, high energy costs, the decarbonisation challenges of steel China. Let's get this into context. Dominates global supply of steel. 54% of steel is produced by China and the world. And to put it into context, the UK produces 5.6 million tonnes, point 3% of the world's total.

Got to get this in context, and there is been a surplus of steel in the world, which has pushed down steel prices. And then, on the other hand, we've had the energy prices which have rocketed after Putins invasion of Ukraine in 2022, when I was president of the CBI, and during my tenure that took place, and now as Chair of the International Chamber of Commerce here in the UK and regional coordinator for Europe, we're witnessing the trade wars and the ICC being the largest business organisation in the world, which trade at its focus is at the heart of these tariff and trade challenges that we face.

And here in the UK right up front, we've got a 25% tariff on all steel imports. Our normal tariff is at 10%. Please note that that is five times higher than our tariff wars with the United States. It was just 2% either way, and it is completely irrelevant for us to have any tariffs increases at all with the United States because we have £60 billion of exports, £58 billion of imports in the United States, and goods that's balanced and in services we have £130 billion of exports, but £50 billion of imports.

We have a services surplus, but there are no tariffs on on services. So as it is, it's unfair for us to be imposed any tariffs at all. But there we have at the 10% baseline and the 25% on steel. And that 25% has been increased to 50%. Where do we stand on this? May I ask the minister when we close, are we going to be at 25? But then we were told we were maybe going to be at 0%. And then with President Trump's visit over here, we were hopeful that that 0% would be clarified.

Where is our tariff going to be with the United States of America? And of

12:12

Lord Vaux of Harrowden (Crossbench)

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course, the other point is that being such an energy intensive being such an energy intensive operation, manufacturing steel asked to our energy costs, sadly, are some to our energy costs, sadly, are some of the highest in the world and certainly the highest in Europe. We pay 25% more for energy than our competitors in France and Germany. And you can quantify this in various ways, but it's millions of pounds more. And on top of that, we've got decarbonisation. And steel, because decarbonisation.

And steel, because of its process, is a significant contributor to greenhouse gases. It is responsible for over 13% of UK greenhouse gases emitted from manufacturing, and 2.2% of the UK's greenhouse gases in total. And yet greenhouse gases in total. And yet the steel industry has such is only 0.1% of UK GDP. So decarbonisation 0.1% of UK GDP. So decarbonisation is of course a priority. The steel industry is trying to do it, and it's also playing an important role it's also playing an important role because the steel produced is used in renewable energy infrastructure manufacturing, like wind turbines manufacturing, like wind turbines and solar panels.

The blast furnaces at Scunthorpe, with the only remaining virgin steel primary steel plants, left plant left in the UK. And of course, this electric arc furnace method does have much lower carbon emissions. But of course that depends on what source of electricity that you are going to get. But the bill has. Going through Parliament, there were issues raised by many. I mean, reform UK, on the one hand, called for an immediate nationalisation of the British steel industry. I think that the government a sunset clause was called for by the opposition.

Would the minister considered it? A sunset clause might be required, but the emergency measures were taken and the steel industry said and parliamentary scrutiny. I mean, every four weeks we now get a report. Will we have some sort of an annual review of this procedure? And the good news is that British Steel is seeking now to enrol apprentices over the next three years, which is excellent. The cost to the taxpayer now is almost £200 million. But we have saved something and of course all the SMEs in the supply chain have also benefited.

Of course,

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noble Lords before. Me. Have spoken about the steel strategy. Could I ask the Minister strategy. Could I ask the Minister to confirm when exactly are we going to get this steel strategy was meant to be this year? Is it going to be

12:14

The Lord Bishop of Leicester (Bishops)

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to be this year? Is it going to be early next year when we have had our industrial strategy, which is great news, which is excellent. And of course, this hopefully will establish a clear long term vision and how we will achieve that vision. Identify gaps, capabilities, investment decisions and we we're all looking forward to it. My Lord. The BBC claimed that the UK government was in favour of merging all the UK steel makers into one organisation, not in favour of nationalising that entity.

Can the Minister give any clarification on that? That's a rumour that has been circulated. So with this measure, the act that has been passed, the 2025 act that we're debating now, it has prevented the closure of the Scunthorpe plant, which employs 2700 workers, but also when it comes to Port Talbot, the Tata Steel plant. There is a great example of partnership between government and business. A £1.25 billion investment of which the government has given a £500 million grant.

Moving to an electric arc furnace, which is which is going to be replacing the blast furnace. This will reduce emissions. Estimates are up to 90%, certainly 70%. It will secure 5000 direct and supply chain jobs. It will align steel production with net zero objectives and but there will be temporary job losses. And I could I urge the Minister to assure us that every help will be given in this transition period, where any

12:16

Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-affiliated)

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temporary job losses are avoided and the extra energy cost. Is there anything that we can do as a government to help our steel government to help our steel industry be more competitive? And then, of course, there's the challenge of the European Union, challenge of the European Union, which I will come to in, in in a short while, my Lord, with the output 6.9 million tonnes, 33,000 output 6.9 million tonnes, 33,000 jobs and 2.5 billion in GVA, the jobs and 2.5 billion in GVA, the tariffs are a huge issue.

But can I just make the point about the public just make the point about the public private partnership once again and the subsidies, the corn and all this, the pros and the cons? The con is this reliance on subsidies? Can the steel industry be self-sufficient without having to self-sufficient without having to rely on the subsidies? When it comes to the European Union, the European to the European Union, the European Commission proposes a 47% cut in the tariff free quotas. And is the UK tariff free quotas.

And is the UK going to be included within these tariff free quotas? Because that would be a huge problem. And the would be a huge problem. And the steel clusters, the regional impact in Wales, in Yorkshire, in the in Wales, in Yorkshire, in the Midlands, the regional regeneration and training, any transition causing local unemployment, we must avoid that at all costs, my Lord. There

12:17

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat)

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was the company and community union launched the Save Steel by British launched the Save Steel by British seeking a level playing field. And when it comes to that, British Metals Recycling Association, they Metals Recycling Association, they had the export Flexibility and circular economy report. And I think this is very important because the this is very important because the UK metals recycling sector, which has just been referred to by the noble Lord moment before me, it noble Lord moment before me, it contributes £9 billion GVA, supports 2000 businesses and 15,000 direct 2000 businesses and 15,000 direct jobs, and it generates 11 million tonnes of ferrous scrap.

But the UK tonnes of ferrous scrap. But the UK consumes only 2.6. The rest of it is exported. Can we maintain export flexibility? Because at the moment flexibility? Because at the moment there are bans to certain countries? Can we create a supportive environment so that this industry, environment so that this industry, which is vital to our steel industry? But also I just want to mention that the minister, in her mention that the minister, in her excellent maiden speech spoke about Heathrow and of course, Baroness Hunter, in an excellent tribute.

I Hunter, in an excellent tribute. I would like to pay tribute to her tribute, which was which is very good. But the minister mentioned the Heathrow third runway. I mean, that's going to require, according to my memory, 400,000 tonnes of to my memory, 400,000 tonnes of steel, and that should be British Steel being used in that. What is going to happen about Heathrow? I remember that Sir Howard is sitting next to him when he had his commission recommended the third runway at Heathrow Airport.

Correct me if I'm wrong, that was over a decade ago. We still haven't decided on which option to go for. I declare my interest, sir, in the Aurora is a close friend of mine and one of the country's great entrepreneurs. He put forward an option. He through a put forward an option. Let's make a choice. Let's get that runway built as soon as possible. Look at Gatwick. Gatwick is now the second runway. I was always said we should not either Heathrow or Gatwick.

Both. And I'm delighted the government has done that. Let's make the decision with Heathrow as well. In India, when I was there just now with the Prime Minister, the announcement was made in India on the day we were in Mumbai. But India is opening up its new Bombay terminal 90 million passengers a year. In addition to the terminal, it already has Dubai Airport. If you go to. That's what we're competing with and this is the greatest city in the world. We should have the best airport transport in the world as well.

And before I conclude, the EU is the biggest customer of UK steel, 78% of all steel goes to the to the EU. And we've got to address this issue about the tariffs again please. But I request the Minister to give clarity on that. And the EU, on the other hand, the steel makers are very happy, but the automakers in the EU are very worried because of tariffs are going to cause their prices to go up and cause inflation. So, my Lords, to conclude, the Tata Steel, the one point I want to make, everyone talks about Port Talbot.

But if you look at the map of where Tata Steel around the country, they're all over the country in Hartlepool and Sheffield and Corbel, Corby and Imperial College and in, in in North England, East England and Swansea, everywhere. And that point is very important to make that the steel industry is not just 1 or 2 places. It affects the whole of the United Kingdom. It's one of the most important industries to our country, and I'm delighted that the government is giving it top priority.

12:20

Baroness Sherlock, The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Labour)

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Yeah.

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Begin by paying tribute to my noble friend, Baroness Lloyd? It was noble friend, Baroness Lloyd? It was a very eloquent speech, but it was a very immodest. Speech because I know from my experience in Tony Blair's government that she played a pivotal role in the machinery of government role in the machinery of government and in the way in which Tony Blair's government had all those successes. So I paid tribute to her, wish her So I paid tribute to her, wish her well, reminder that is extremely unusual to make her maiden speech from the despatch box, and I am sure she'll do a great job in the position she now holds.

I may also look forward to Lord Stockwood speech at the end of this debate. speech at the end of this debate. Important debate on steel. He, too, has had a distinguished career in business, and I am sure he will be business, and I am sure he will be doing a great job in the position that he now holds as well. My life

12:21

Debate: Steel Industry (Special Measures) Act 2025

that he now holds as well. My life has been mixed up in steel for nearly 70 odd years. My great

12:21

Baroness Lloyd of Effra, Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Department for Business and Trade) (Labour)

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12:34

Baroness Hunter of Auchenreoch (Labour)

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young thing. Of course. A bright young. Thing. To our House in Kennington. For path.

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For path. For a great party with a lot of

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For a great party with a lot of the young people who were part of the Blair and Brown Project eagerly preparing for that government. And I worked in for seven and a half years in number ten Downing Street as a special adviser, and for quite a lot of them, I was sitting opposite Baroness Lloyd when she was working on international development questions, and I was working on Europe and defence. So she's got a great background, but she's going to be a tremendous success in this House.

I'm sure I'm also looking forward to the maiden speech of Lord Stockwood. He comes. He's a successful businessman who's been a great philanthropist. And the one thing I know about him, at least I hope I'm right, is that he has a great attachment to the town of Grimsby. Now, I have I have only been to Grimsby once, and the reason I went to Grimsby, because I had a great attachment to its former Member of Parliament, the Right Honourable Tony Crosland, who I went to Grimsby for the only time in my life to celebrate the 50th anniversary of his publication of The Future of Socialism, at which Ed Miliband was the guest lecturer.

So anyone with associations with Grimsby, a community that suffered from the loss of its main industry in deep sea fishing a long time ago, Lord Stockwood commitment I know, to community development there. One of our young MPs, Caius Care mother, told me all about it and I think he's an excellent addition to our House. Now, on the subject of this debate. I think steel is a sovereign capability that we have to retain.

I would like to see a public private partnership developed, but if we have the only way of retaining sovereign capable that he would be public ownership, then I would be prepared in exceptional circumstances to support that. I am not a passionate public ownership man by nature, but I think that that this would be essential. Several members have talked about the need for a plan for steel, and of course I agree. I like the idea of plans,

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but I think it is extremely difficult to do. At the moment.

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At the moment. Because of the global crisis in

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Because of the global crisis in which steel is inevitably wrapped up. And it's not just a crisis to do up. And it's not just a crisis to do with the steel industry. It's a crisis to do with manufacturing. But crisis to do with manufacturing. But like the car industry as well. And like the car industry as well. And it's the outcome of the tariff war that President Trump has engaged in, that President Trump has engaged in, in the world with very, very high in the world with very, very high tariffs on exports to the United States.

For some countries, and States. For some countries, and particularly China, we have in any particularly China, we have in any event, a surplus capacity of steel event, a surplus capacity of steel in the world. Now, I remember when the European Community faced this problem 30, 40 years ago, there was the d'Avignon plan. Now I think the d'Avignon plan was actually quite successful in reducing overcapacity. But whereas we could have a Dorian plan for Europe, I somehow doubt if we can have a d'Avignon plan for the world that, like today, is likely to have much chance of success.

And so what is happening is that people are imposing tariffs in Europe because they fear a flood of imports, which could have gone to the United States, coming to Europe, particularly in steel, but also in wider industrial sectors. So I consulted the trade union, that of the steel industry, and they sent me a briefing. Community sent me a briefing on what is now going on. And. What they say is this. And I want to read it out so that everybody is clear.

The new measures proposed by the European Union would halve the overall quotas and double the import tariffs on steel. Outside of these quotas to 50%. In addition, Europe's plans for stricter traceability requirements to specifically target countries that are producing too much steel and undercutting EU producers may be a problem. These measures will significantly reduce the UK's access to the single market, which is, and I emphasise here, by far our largest export market for steel, accounting for almost 80% of our exports.

And therefore that has to put in context the success of the bilateral agreement that we made with the United States that addresses part of our export problem. But this is the central question as far as steel exports are concerned now. And they go on to say this will undercut UK businesses and cause further damage to our steel industry. So we have the potential situation in Britain where we are pouring in billions of pounds in support of the steel industry that finds its global markets severely blocked.

And that is not a very sensible position. We have to find some way through this now. Obviously the best thing to do is to negotiate a good arrangement with the EU, but I suggest that that arrangement, having worked in Brussels for three years of my life and got to know intimately the tough types who run the EU trade policy, who put the interests of the Union before anything else. Right, quite properly, that they will say unless you adopt the same measures as we are adopting of 50% tariffs on on exports from the rest of the world or from imports from the rest of the world, why should why should we make any change in our policy? And so I'd like to ask our ministers what they see as they call the perspective for these discussions with the European Union, how they see themselves going, then going.

And I'd also like to make one point which which perhaps people would expect me to make, given my background, is that it seems to me that we face potentially an economic emergency on tariffs. Why don't we just think about rejoining the European Customs about rejoining the European Customs Union? Why? It is the most obvious thing to do to protect our position. And I know we are very proud of the trade agreements that we have negotiated. I know we're very proud negotiated.

I know we're very proud of that. But what I'd like to see is a cost benefit analysis carried out a cost benefit analysis carried out in the next month or two about whether the benefits of an whether the benefits of an independent trade policy out outweigh the losses we risk outweigh the losses we risk suffering, of which steel is a very, very prime example.

12:43

Lord Hunt of Wirral (Conservative)

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By not.

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Being members of the EU customs union here.

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union here. my Lords, I arrived with some trepidation. Looking across the new ministers we are now that not only have the face of an angel, but also has balls of steel. I could apply both those descriptions, of course, both those descriptions, of course, to the noble Lady Baroness Hunter as well, but I thought the minister well, but I thought the minister made a wonderful maiden speech, so congratulations. She has a very tough, tough decision to make. I tough, tough decision to make.

I think in her current role. I'd also like to just mention or draw like to just mention or draw attention to the noble lords that Mohammed and Murphy, because I worked with the British steel worked with the British steel industry during the 1980s for ten years and have been at Panteg, ever Vale, Port Talbot and of course Vale, Port Talbot and of course Tinsley Park and all the many of the mills in and around South Yorkshire. mills in and around South Yorkshire. It has a huge emotional pull, doesn't it? The steel industry, it employed many hundreds of thousands employed many hundreds of thousands of people and was one of our great industries for several hundred years, and we have come to a pretty pass today, if we're being honest.

We're talking about the residue of a once great industry, but it is only the residue. And I, as I listened to the debate today, you know, I've thought it's a bit like Groundhog Day. We had all the problems of dumping steel back in the 1980s. We had the Japanese producing quality steel, taking all the steel going into the North Sea. We have Port Talbot that couldn't hit the quality standards for the Ford Motor Company at the time. We had the problems of land.

Warren and Ravenscraig, two steel plants, put them at exactly the wrong place for political reasons. You know, all these issues that were sort of talking about today were present back in the 1980s as well. And so I would ask the minister that she should be thinking about the viability not just to Scunthorpe, the work that Scunthorpe, but look at Port Talbot. Is the hot mill competitive today? I'm not sure that it is all the money that should have gone into the Port Talbot hot mill, went into the huge plant in Holland for many years.

Is it viable that we should be producing Hot Roll coil at Port Talbot and shipping it up into North Wales and into the coating plants at at Shotton? You know, that's 200, 250km. You know, these issues that probably amount to ten, 20, £30 a tonne, something like that. These are in the world of competition that we're in. These are big issues and that in at Rotherham and at Stockbridge, you know, with, with Liberty Steel. Totally Undercapitalised, you know, are we putting the investment into those plants and one of the tragedies of British Steel in the old days was that we were the inventors of continuous casting, and yet the slowest to adapt and use continuous casting in Europe.

And then turning to the Scunthorpe and we are putting all our eggs, it seems to me, into the electric arc bucket. Can we produce the right quality of steel from electric arc furnaces? Do we need to have primary primary steel production in the UK? I don't actually know the answer to those questions, but I. I hope that in the plan that is produced. But we will have those answers and it is no good. I think the minister's saying that we're going to build a third runway and we're going to have all these construction projects.

If we're setting up Scunthorpe to produce rebar, we can forget it. There is no competitive advantage. We have producing low grade, low quality steel for reinforcing bar. If there is a future for the British steel industry, it has to be in higher quality special steels. That may be that rail is one of those, one of those products. But again, I'd like to have confirmation that if we do move to electric arc steel, that we can produce the qualities required for high speed, for high speed rail.

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But underlying. All of this and we can't escape this is energy prices. If our industrial electricity prices are industrial electricity prices are 25% or more higher than Germany and France and where American and France and where American and Chinese electricity costs are, you know, we are four times their cars. know, we are four times their cars. So we cannot compete on this basis and we can't pour more taxpayers money into the steel industry if we don't give the citizens a chance of being competitive.

So I do think we being competitive. So I do think we have, you know, the government has some very important trade offs to make. You know, we all want green make. You know, we all want green steel. We all want to reduce carbon emissions. But what is more important is it growth and employment or is it reducing carbon employment or is it reducing carbon emissions. Now it's not always an obvious a trade off is that. But the government is committed to growth, government is committed to growth, rightly in my view, because only by getting economic growth are we going to have any choices in the future.

to have any choices in the future. But if consistently we're making choices that will limit our steel choices that will limit our steel industry and all the steel intensive industries that are its customers, then we're going to have we're going then we're going to have we're going to have to reap some very, very tough decisions from that in terms of employment. So I have a huge emotional attachment to the steel industry, but I think that to carry on pouring more money into Scunthorpe, I think £270 million so far, without a very clear plan and a very clear strategy for the future, which encompasses the whole of the steel industry, not just a Scunthorpe, then I think we have to look very carefully here.

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My Lord. It's a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Pryor and my late father actually also and my late father actually also worked in Port Talbot in the 1980s when it was British Steel. And I congratulate the noble Baroness Lady Lloyd on her maiden speech. She Lloyd on her maiden speech. She noted her family roots in Wales, so I look forward to hearing more about I look forward to hearing more about her links in Wales, and it's always good to have more voices here.

good to have more voices here. Wanting to stand up for Wales so to and I also look forward to the maiden speech of the noble Lord, maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Stockwood, at the end of this debate. So both of you, I look debate. So both of you, I look forward to your contributions as ministers. So Parliament was recalled earlier this year to fast recalled earlier this year to fast track the passage of this legislation. The government acted legislation.

The government acted with commendable urgency to safeguard jobs at British Steel in safeguard jobs at British Steel in Scunthorpe. That, my Lords, is what good government should do act swiftly and decisively to protect people's jobs. And we have also heard of new jobs in the form of heard of new jobs in the form of apprentices that have been created to. And I'm glad for the people of Scunthorpe. They deserve that protection. But I cannot ignore the painful contrast with what has happened in Port Talbot, where 2800 jobs have disappeared, similar to the number that has been saved in Scunthorpe without an equivalent intervention from government.

This, my Lords, is nothing short of a betrayal and the loss extends far beyond those direct jobs. For every worker on site, there were free contractors employed, there were the cafes, the suppliers and the small businesses that form part of the steel working community, as was perfectly well pointed out by the noble Lord Murphy in terms of the fact that these industries literally create those communities in Wales and once removed, you lose those communities. The people of Port Talbot have the right to ask, why were our jobs not worth fighting for? Why was our community left behind while another was rescued? Port Talbot was not a minor player.

It was the largest steelworks in the United Kingdom, producing millions of tons of steel each year. Yet the first blast furnace was shut down on 5th of July 2024 and the second on 30th of September. From car doors and bonnets to Heinz cans and the coins in our pockets, all of us have relied on the steel made in Port Talbot. And when you speak to those who have worked there and in the community, there is immense pride in this, pride in their contribution to both the everyday and the extraordinary.

From the cans on our shelves to the stadiums that stand proudly across the UK and as highlighted by many noble Lords, many opportunities do exist in the future in terms of building wind turbines and supporting defence. But my Lords, under the Steel Industry Special Measures Act, the very legislation we're discussing today, the government holds the power to intervene even after assets have ceased operation. The act extends to England and Wales. The capacity to act existed. Only the will to act was missing.

The decision to exclude Welsh Steel from the benefits of this legislation was a choice made by this government, and it deeply political one. I have no doubt that when the Minister responds at the end of this debate, we shall once again hear that it was too late to save the jobs at Port Talbot. But, my Lords, that simply is not true. When the new government took office, one blast furnace was still operating. The other had only just been shut down. There was still time to intervene.

The need was urgent and the refusal to act is indefensible. And the New Deal of the £500 million mentioned at the beginning in opening remarks predates this government, and we're still no clearer on the material difference that this new deal makes. In April, my PLI committee colleagues in the other place tabled an amendment to extend the bill's provisions to Wales. That amendment was rejected. In doing so, the government made a conscious political decision to extend protection to one part of the United Kingdom, but not to another.

That rejection does speak volumes. It shows that the power is being used to safeguard jobs, and England could have been used and should have been used to protect the steel industry in Wales. And all this enfolds amongst a wider storm, which was illustrated in the opening remarks by the Minister and by the noble Lord and his no longer in his place. Lord Murray. I would also like to ask the Minister directly in regards to the steel strategy, which many noble Lords have mentioned in terms of the fact that we have been waiting six months and it is yet to have been published, and but in terms of that strategy, will this government consider a place based approach to the £2.5 billion steel fund, ensuring that key Welsh sites Port Talbot, Shotton, San Juan and Trusty receive a fair and proportionate share of investment? This my Lords is not simply a matter of industrial policy, it is a question of justice and of balance and really just a fairness.

We must also reflect with regret on the decisions taken not only here in Westminster but also in Cardiff Bay. The Welsh Labour Government wants dismiss ply Cumbria's call for nationalisation of Port Talbot as a pipe dream. Yet we now witness, in effect, the nationalisation of British Steel in Scunthorpe. What was dismissed as fantasy in Wales has become a reality in England, and I'm glad the government made that decision here. So I must ask, why was that same courage not shown when Welsh steel workers needed it most? The future of British Steel cannot be determined by postcode.

The people of Port Talbot and of Sheffield as well, and across the UK, are no less valuable than the people of Scunthorpe. If the government can intervene to save jobs in Lincolnshire, it should and must do so across the United Kingdom and of course in Wales. This legislation may be a stopgap, but the choices it exposes will have lasting consequences for people and communities. The government now has an opportunity, with the steel strategy, to turn a new page, to set out clearly how the steel fund will be used, to confirm how much will be invested in Wales, and to deliver parity in funding and in policy.

My Lords were not asking for favouritism for Wales. We're asking for fairness. We're asking for a level playing field and we're asking that the steel workers of Wales receive the same support and respect as their counterparts in England, and as the people of Caerphilly go to the polls today. They, like so many across Wales, are watching what this government does. They see how decisions are made here in Westminster and in Cardiff Bay are shaping their futures. And next May, when Wales elects a new government to the Senate of the people, will deliver their verdict on who stood with them when there still works fell silent.

Because, my Lords, the people of Wales are not powerless. remember.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

My Lord. And. Welcome the opening speech. I think my primary thought speech. I think my primary thought is what a difficult job you have taken on. We've been battling with taken on. We've been battling with the strategy for the steel industry for rather a long time, and we haven't made a very good job of haven't made a very good job of deciding what to do and when we have decided what to do in general, we decided what to do in general, we haven't done it.

I would like just

12:58

Lord Mohammed of Tinsley (Liberal Democrat)

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haven't done it. I would like just very briefly to say what I want my credentials for talking about seasons. When I left Oxford, I became a premium apprentice on Teesside. To a firm that made equipment for the steel industry and which had foundries. One of my first jobs was to progress for the plate coming from the Concert Iron Company and going into the Bradwell boilers for one of our early power stations, for one of our early power stations, and in 1956, serious time, I was managing a steel foundry, the steel foundry depended upon a variation of the bottom, the Bessemer converter, and we had a coupla a very small blast furnace, if you like, and we made a two, two and a half tonnes of steel a day and went into castings.

The same firm had an electric arc furnace. Foundry in Thornaby, which specialised in the making of castings for pumps and for valves. And I think that's a very important point. I don't think you can think about the steel industry unless you think about where does the steel go and who are these people to whom the steel goes and what do they do? And then later, quite a bit later, I was the Chief Executive at the in those days, we were called managing director of the firm that built the Redcar blast furnace.

And in 1970 I had had a rather long lunch with the Chief Executive of the British Steel Corporation, and we went to the Connaught Hotel because he liked steak and kidney pie and steak and kidney pie was well known to be one of the Cornwall's real specialities. And during that lunch I put the case for saying that there was no future for bulk steelmaking in the United Kingdom, and that was at that time that the British Steel Corporation's plan was to increase it by about 50%.

Now, I have to say, as a blast furnace builder, and we built the blast furnaces in Argentina and in Australia and so on. It my analysis was a market analysis. I understand about all the politics and the worry about employment, and I can only say that I was a victim of what happened to the steel industry. And indeed, I lost my job and I had entirely to change my career into something with which I think the minister's familiar, which is the Commonwealth Development Corporation.

So I think when I think about the minister's task and I think about what's been said about strategy, I have a bother. I don't think it's possible to have a successful strategy for bulk steel making in the United Kingdom. We don't have the right iron or we don't have the right coking coal. We are not in possession of any particular technological advantage, frankly, an integrated steel industry is not a difficult thing to manage, and it's not a difficult thing to get what comes out of it correct.

And the clever bit of that is in the in the businesses of the makers, and perhaps in passing, I should say that we have sinter plants at Scunthorpe, which were built by my firm on Teesside during my time. So I think I suggest a few things, if I may. The first thing is I don't think you can understand what is the future of steel in the United Kingdom, unless you look very carefully at the people who use it.

I offer one example. There's a vacuum melting. Electric arc furnace in the north of England, where they in the north of England, where they make blanks for the blades of aircraft engines. And of course, those have to be made to the highest possible standard with no faults and so on. They are clever, and I think particularly it's worth having a close look at the people who use steel and use it to do clever things. Of course, it's a pity that we don't have a big domestic machinery industry in this country, and this is a take because of the use of steel strip.

And this takes me to the point I, I want to make about thinking about steel in this country. I think it is completely caught up with what is happening in our manufacturing industry. And without a clear understanding of what it is that our industry, our economy, can use. I don't think we get very far. I'm not much comforted by the thought that if there was a third runway at Heathrow, it would absorb a great deal of steel.

Quite honestly, my opening thought would be, well, what's to stop us importing it from somebody who is as if I may use the word dumping, which I suppose means that they are selling their steel at a loss. And so I think in. Going forward, we have to take a careful account of some of the things that we have decided in the past and which haven't worked. And also that in doing that, we face reality. I think one of the problems we of course we were in the business very early Abraham Darby and onwards and of course we had this amazing position.

And indeed there's been this reference to steel making in India. And I suppose, again, the firm I worked for was guilty, if that's the right word, a building blast furnaces in India and. So it is not at all surprising that we are uncompetitive. And one can obviously complain about the electricity price. And that's another subject in a way. But the fact is that the basic positions geopolitical and the raw material situation of the United Kingdom is not at all favourable to bulk steel making.

But there's one other point I want to make. There's been very little reference to scrap, and I don't think it's possible to understand the position of the users of steel in this country unless you understand the contribution of scrap. And there we do have a slight comparative advantage because we're an old economy, we produce a lot of scrap. I and when I was making castings with the Bessemer type system, I was next door to a scrap merchant.

And one of the things that we spent a lot of time doing was trying to see how little pig iron we could use, and how much scrap we could use, and we had a lot of help. And of course, in, in, on Teesside, when there was a handsome young man and the latest sports car with a Dizzee Blonde behind him, we were Dizzee Blonde behind him, we were inclined to say, well, he's a scrap merchant son spending his father's merchant son spending his father's money and I think the scrap industry and the position of scrap has not and the position of scrap has not had nearly enough attention from the people who do the planning.

Can I people who do the planning. Can I just conclude by saying that I hope the Minister finds that in the the Minister finds that in the department, she has people of a knowledge and of a who can really think through what has happened to us, why we're where we are and what is best done about it. And I suspect is best done about it. And I suspect that they will do a good job for her if they start at the bottom and not at the top.

13:08

Lord Bilimoria (Crossbench)

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13:20

Lord Murphy of Torfaen (Labour)

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13:29

Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Conservative)

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13:34

Lord Liddle (Labour)

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just have one. You end up with the same issues that they had on Ravenscraig. You need to you need a proper integrated plant. I'm not saying how we should get there. I'm not saying where the government should do that investment, but if you don't have that strategy, you will not have a long term plant there. And finally, the government needs to create the right environment. Yes, it's about energy. It's about having the right tax system that encourages investments, doesn't penalise employing people, and it needs to be robust when it comes to looking at tariffs.

If we are going to successfully export specialist steels, we need to have a tariff system that does not penalise us. If we are going to demand very high standards in terms of climate and the environment of our steel workers, well then we can't be importing steel from someone else who pays no attention to those standards. That is about environment. So I look forward to hearing what the Minister has said. Hopefully that has been some helpful

**** Possible New Speaker ****

pointers. But, my. Lords, that there may have been far fewer of us.

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far fewer of us. Here. Today than they were in April. But I think the concentration of steel expertise was raised accordingly. And that calls me to have to reach back in my own experience to at least try to come experience to at least try to come up with something. And I work largely for the uses of steel. But largely for the uses of steel. But in my last corporate role, I worked for a company that owned an electric for a company that owned an electric arc furnace in the United States to produce powder metallurgy from used cars.

And until you've stood in front of an arc as the electricity front of an arc as the electricity goes into the crucible and you, you literally, viscerally feel that that power that is used to melt that scrap metal, it is quite an scrap metal, it is quite an experience. And it sort of puts in context what these much larger hulks context what these much larger hulks must, must be doing. I congratulate the noble Baroness Lloyd for her the noble Baroness Lloyd for her maiden speech.

There were moments later on where I felt like I was later on where I felt like I was gatecrashing a reunion, but I think I think leaving that to one side, I think you look forward to her, her her role going forward in your Lordships' House. I was also delighted to be on the benches when my noble friend Lord Maha had made his speech because he established a point at the beginning because of course there are mills and plants and there are supply chains, but they all lead to communities, and those communities lead to families and people.

And that is why I turned to the noble Lord hand and say, yes, we must be careful about nostalgia, but we have to remember where this industry has come from, what it is, what it has meant, and what we have to do to try to make sure that people, its people, can come along with whatever the future strategy is. And I was very grateful that that the noble Lord Nahum had put us in in that position. We have this debate today because of, of what we pushed for during the original passing of the, the, the amendment.

And I hope it will bring some scrutiny into that. Well, I'm going to try to probe quite a few of the issues, and I hope the load the noble Lord Stockwood, when he comes, we'll have a chance to answer every one of those questions and give his maiden speech. But if he's unable to, so do I hope that the people sitting in the box behind will be able to respond in in in in due course, as we've heard, there is plenty to discuss and actually plenty of questions to ask.

A lot has happened since that debate in April, but some things have not happened. The blast furnaces in Scunthorpe thought were not shut down. And that is a very good thing and we should applaud that process. Then in July, the US president did not double tariffs to 5,050%. That left the UK at 25%. But of course subject to future whim as yet unknown. These days that seems like a win. But given that it's less than a 10th of our steel exports are to the USA, it's very much less significant than what may or may not be happening with our relationship with the European Union, because as as we've heard, the EU's 5050 proposal would be pretty devastating to about 80%.

Half of the 80% of our exports, which go to that country. This was announced in October, and as we've heard, it's subject to approval from member states to the Parliament and WTO negotiations. But it would cut quotas from the UK into the EU by half and create a new 50% tariff applied to all imports above that slashed quota. That would leave tariff free exports at 18.3 million tonnes for the UK, a 47% reduction from 2020.

For now, I, of course, associate myself with the cry from the noble Lord little for us to join a customs union. But leaving that to one side, I am interested. When the Minister said that in the event that such a thing happened, the government will take any necessary action, and I wonder what legal framework the government will apply to take any such action. The EU has trade defence instruments. We do not have the same instruments. We chose not to adopt those post Brexit.

So our relationship with trade retaliation and the WTO and our stated aim to maintain international law, it is quite a compromised position and I'd be very interested to hear from the government how such retaliation measures could be justified within international law. Turning back to the US, can I ask the government, is it still working on its stated aim of securing 0% US steel tariffs, which was paraded at one point during the various discussions? Nothing has surfaced.

Is this now officially dead? My Lords, when we look at this sector and we've heard various elements of that, it really is a sad tale in many senses of a sector of decline, rescue, sale, rescue and further decline. In a in a series of downward steps to leave us in the position where we are now, which is a very small steel industry, as we've just just heard and almost all well, essentially all of our steel. Still, steelmakers are facing a huge challenge and most, if not all are being propped up by the government.

And I think the noble old hand is suggesting that we kick those crops down and see what happened. I think we know what would happen if the government wasn't acting and had not acted in the way, the way it was. But what about the future own ownership structure? We heard from the government, from Jonathan Reynolds, but that the government would like a sector partner going forward. Yet with honourable exceptions such as Tata, past experience has shown that the sort of businesses that are willing to take on this mantle of a partner are often ones that fail to come up with the capital model and fail to actually do what needs to be done with those.

So I think this is going to be a challenge for our new investment minister, and I think it would be useful to, to understand how he and his department will go about finding that sector partner and where they might actually be looking. But all of this begs the question, which I think each of you in many ways has probed, which is what is the future purpose of steel in Britain and what is the strategy going to seek to cause to happen in order to deliver that future shape? The government closed its consultation over six months ago, but is yet, as we've heard yet, to present any outputs relating to strategy, June's industrial strategy and the corresponding August Advanced Manufacturing Sector Plan reference steel as an important industry but only committed to a future steel strategy.

This provides no certainty or clarity for a sector that desperately needs things to cling on to. On paper, I think there is a Steel Council. Can the Minister tell us how many times it is met? Has it reviewed a draft of the steel strategy? Does it approve the steel strike strategy or where will this be signed off? Will it will it be the Secretary of State? Will it be the Prime Minister or will it be the Treasury? But more than that, when it is eventually launched, how will this strategy be implemented? Because, my Lords, it is implementation of strategy where we find so many shortfalls.

I think what we've seen with steel is interesting. There was frenetic activity, necessary frenetic active ness in the run up to government stepping, stepping in. There were dramatic tales of actions taken under the cover of darkness, if not by Johnny Reynolds, then by some of his colleagues in order to secure the future of the blast furnace. That's great, but there hasn't been much of a narrative since then. What is actually happening? So moving on from there. More questions.

Where is

13:44

Lord Prior of Brampton (Conservative)

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the government in its negotiations with Jingye? The minister painted a slightly rosy picture of its slightly rosy picture of its relationship with Jingye, which which I find interesting and perhaps which I find interesting and perhaps hard to understand. My understanding. It's that that Jingye is seeking many hundreds of millions of pounds in compensation for what of pounds in compensation for what the government has done. Has the government ruled out handing any public money to Jingye or or is it a public money to Jingye or or is it a matter of just how much and when? And does it agree and when it agrees And does it agree and when it agrees to? If it agrees to pay them any money, where will that money come from? Will it come from the steel from? Will it come from the steel rescue plan, or will it come from a separate Treasury fund? Because, my Lords, that still rescue money is already in demand.

As we've heard, 500 million has gone into the gone to Tata, towards the, the to Tata, towards the, the installation of the electric arc furnaces. But in Scunthorpe, costs furnaces. But in Scunthorpe, costs are being incurred too. As the Minister, I think myself said, £270 Minister, I think myself said, £270 million has been provided, ostensibly for working capital and covering things like raw material and other issues. But there will be ongoing costs and it would be helpful to understand, given the 270 million is a down payment, what is the likely monthly ongoing cost that will be drawing down from the steel fund? Excuse me.

Looking forward. Having saved the furnaces, the government needs to determine how that can ever be cost effective. And that really relates to so many of the, the, the things that we've heard just now. In September, Jonathan Reynolds told the House that the government's preferred option was a transition plan in Scunthorpe, two more electric arc furnaces. It seems to me that if they started now, if we started now, we wouldn't have an arc furnace there till 2030. So how do is the blast furnace arc to transition in Scunthorpe ever to be financed and ever to be finance able in the short term? Internal markets have been have been identified for the product in Scunthorpe.

But most of those, most of those markets are things that haven't happened, aren't happening, may happen some time into the future, that the whole structure of what the market for Scunthorpe is, is, is, is, is, is not there. My Lords given and given the cost of Chinese steel and other is substantially cheaper for most of that sort of steel that has been identified for Scunthorpe. Again, how does the government square the circle on costs and still maintaining what it wants to do? My Lords, I'm not going to go into energy because your Lordships have done it so, so well, except to say that there are ways of reducing the cost of electricity by drinking it from the cost of gas.

Our leader, Ed Davey, has been very clear and very detailed in that. That would be a start for the industry. My, my Lords, the steel industry has stood as a pillar of British industrial strength. But we've had historical decline, policy drift, mismanagement, bad commercial managers, marriages and external market pressures. Which point put us at the point, frankly, of near extinction. Perhaps it's the best of all possible worlds, unless we understand what is the optimal activity and the optimal optimal scale for that activity across across the country.

That's what we're waiting for from the strategy. My Lords, that we have to decide what we're going to do. And it almost certainly isn't doing everything everywhere or it certainly isn't that so. So please, can the ministers take on board the absolute necessity to be focussed in what we do? My Lords, this this is an important industry. It's an industry that we value, but it's one that we are going to have to target and focus because it's quite clear we can't remain where we are now, and we need to know where we are going, and we need to know where we're going very soon.

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Hey. I well, my Lords, before I begin, can I also add to the general praise can I also add to the general praise for the noble Lady Baroness Lloyd of Defra for her excellent maiden speech and wish the name of the Lord, Lord Stockwood, the very best for his, while also welcoming both for his, while also welcoming both to the House as the noble Lord. Lord Stockwood will not be followed. May I also take this opportunity to say how welcome it is to have someone

**** Possible New Speaker ****

how welcome it is to have someone with his business experience join the Labour Benches. Yeah, yeah yeah. my Lords, this has been a wide

**** Possible New Speaker ****

my Lords, this has been a wide ranging and extremely interesting debate. And the one theme that is debate. And the one theme that is very clear and has come from pretty much from all speakers across the House, is the lack of the strategy. House, is the lack of the strategy. I think the noble Lord Lord Fox just sum that up rather well. So the first of the questions that I intend to answer, the long list of the noble Lord foxes is can we please have a date for the strategy? When can we expect it, and when can we can we expect it, and when can we expect to discuss it? But in starting, I'd like to echo the words of my noble friend, Lord Hunt of the of my noble friend, Lord Hunt of the Wirral and indeed several other noble Lords, because the government's handling of the steel industry has, to put it mildly, been industry has, to put it mildly, been deeply unsatisfactory, the events of six months ago must not be allowed to be repeat themselves, and your

13:49

Baroness Smith of Llanfaes (Plaid Cymru)

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to be repeat themselves, and your Lordships' House was offered little clarity as ministers rushed through emergency powers. Powers granted, as my noble friend reminded us, without a sunset clause. As a result, my Lords, we have no indication whatsoever of when or if this bill will be repealed in spite of ministerial assurances at the time. Instead, the saying that nothing is so permanent as temporary government programme seems to hang rather ominously over us. So may I therefore ask the noble Lord, the Minister, to tell the House precisely when the government intend to bring this legislation to an end? My Lords, the agreement reached by the previous Conservative government with Tata Steel in relation to Port Talbot, should have provided this government with a clear and successful template for transition.

It's a partnership model that combined industrial realism with long term vision. Also with a keen eye on steel security. Yet by all accounts, the current administration has not followed that example. Indications suggest that the key sticking point in the government's continuation of the negotiations originally initiated under the previous government, has been an insistent insistence that the existing loss making, basic oxygen furnished operations be maintained throughout the transition phase, and this is an approach that defies both commercial logic and fiscal responsibility.

As my Noble friend, Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Ward grist highlight it. So I'd like to ask the Minister specifically in relation to the events leading up to the 27th of March, 2025. What proposal did the government put to British Steel? What counter did the company make in response, and what contingency planning, if any, was undertaken to address the possibility of a breakdown in negotiations? Because, my Lords, it's now evident that ministers were woefully unprepared for the outcome that followed my Lords.

We also have to revisit the government's narrative concerning Jingye responsibilities, and a proper understanding of British Steel's position is essential if that narrative is not to descend into distortion. During the first four years of Jingye ownership of British Steel from 2020 to 20 late 2023, the government's operating losses and capital investments required injections of some £811 million in loans and equity, almost all of which were provided in cash. By Jingye itself, the solvency of the business was wholly dependent on that continuing support.

By the end of 2024, it is probable that British Steel's combined inter-company debt, equity and assets exceeded £1 billion. Now, it's simply not realistic to expect any private enterprise to provide indefinite cash support to a loss making operation of that scale. Jingye quite reasonably, sought to restructure its business model to place it on a sounder financial footing, as any responsible company would, provided that it acted lawfully and with due regard to its other obligations. But instead of engaging constructively, the government chose to declare a national emergency and seized effective control of the company, locking its directors out of their own plants and records while simultaneously requiring them to retain their statutory and common law duties to the company.

My Lords. That's an extraordinary and troubling position. It represents a clear violation of private property rights. British Steel and its directors had, until that moment acted entirely within the law, and yet they were treated as though they were the problem rather than the victim of government failure. And as my noble friend Lord Canon Hannan of Kingsley argued, so we know where that inevitably veritably ends. It would not be the first time, my Lords, that a Labour government has sought to blame private enterprise for the failures of state.

But here we are. The pattern is familiar mismanagement, intervention and then scapegoating of those who have invested, worked and strive to keep a British industry alive. Does the Minister accept that such an action represents a serious breach of private property rights? And what precedent does this set for other foreign investors considering the United Kingdom? The Official Opposition has made the point in your Lordships' House numerous times since this government took office, as well as in the other place that the government's energy policy is leading to skyrocketing electricity prices.

And we've heard a good deal around the chamber about that today, including, I thought, most persuasively from my Noble friends, Lord Jamieson and Lord Pryor of Brampton. Britain and Europe are both the industrialising, largely because of high electricity prices, and is simply much cheaper to make things abroad. Meanwhile, of course, we export production in this. Exporting production in this fashion almost certainly makes global CO2 emissions worse than if we made them at home. So it looks very much as if we have a situation that could only be created by a Labour government, which is that the net zero policy undermines net zero.

Now, having said that, Europe is having said that Europe is industrialising. It must also be said that they are streets ahead of us. As regards steel, the EU Steel and Market Action Plan aims at security and curing commercially viable melted and poured steel, partly through developing an effective carbon border adjustment mechanism, which will help ensure competitive energy supply and cost. Can I ask the noble of the Minister? Is the government looking at this as a possible model without necessarily resorting to noble Lord? Lord Lidl's suggestions? Recently, my Noble friend Lord Hunt and I and this will please my Noble friend Viscount Eccles met with the British Metals Recycling Association, which is an organisation founded in 1919 and which contributes over £9 billion in gross value added to the UK economy and annually, and supports more than 15,000 direct jobs across 2000 businesses.

Now they made plain to us their grave concerns that the government may consider pursuing restrictions on the export of recycled metals, under the mistaken belief that this might somehow strengthen domestic steel production. My Lords. The evidence shows the opposite. Independent research conducted for the BMA by the centre for Regional Economic and Social Research at Sheffield Hallam University concludes that even modest constraints on exports would cause £1 billion in lost economic value and tens of thousands of jobs to disappear over the next five years.

A 50% export quota alone, would, they estimate, result in a 4 billion loss in GVA and more than 23,000 full time equivalent jobs lost, and a total ban on exports to Turkey, which are a single largest market for recycled metal, would remove over £2 billion in value and jeopardise almost 7000 jobs. But the economic cost my Lords is only part of the story. The environmental consequences would be equally perverse. Restricting exports would not increase the recycling of metal in Britain. It would reduce it by undermining the financial viability of recyclers, who depend upon global competition to sustain fair prices.

It would mean less involvement, investment in cleaner, higher grade feedstock and in the advanced sorting and quality systems essential for the production of low carbon electric arc furnace steel. Indeed, the MRA has warned quite credibly that if the sector's viability were threatened, the unintended consequence could be an increase in things like fly tipping as end of life vehicles and electrical goods are dumped rather than recycled. Now, without access to international markets, the recycling industry cannot survive, let alone flourish, and invest in the emerging technology that will make Britain British Steel greener and which, of course, is so necessary to the new electric arc furnaces.

My Lords. Recently, the government announced stronger trade safeguards on steel imports, claiming these measures will protect British jobs and rebuild our industrial strength. However, such a measure would have ramifications both for the pound sterling and as we know from experience, trading partners may respond with their own restrictions on UK exports, as evidenced, of course, as has been discussed by a number of noble Lords by the EU's recently announcing it will reduce tariff free quotas on imported steel and to hike tariffs

13:57

Viscount Eccles (Conservative)

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14:09

Lord Hannan of Kingsclere (Conservative)

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this funding has been delivered in under a year, is a testament to this government's commitment to the community impacted by Tata Steel's UK transition to greener steel, making the Electric Arc Furnace a making the Electric Arc Furnace a groundbreaking event in July and the start of the work in the new picket line in September are pivotal line in September are pivotal milestone milestones, demonstrating practical delivery of this complex project. These developments are not project. These developments are not only secure the future of steel production in Port Talbot, but also positioned the UK and the front of sustainable industrial transformation.

But this man would also like to recognise the Baroness Smith for passionate about her Smith for passionate about her community and their questions. I deeply appreciate those. The topic deeply appreciate those. The topic of industrial energy prices came up often by Lord Hunt, Lord Mohammed, Lord Lord Murphy and Lord Hannan. Since the 20 tens, these prices have Since the 20 tens, these prices have risen by more than 50% in the UK. Today, UK industrial energy costs are approximately 30% higher than are approximately 30% higher than those in Germany, 50% higher than those in France, and more than four times those of the most competitive times those of the most competitive states in the United States.

Energy intensive industries, including intensive industries, including foundational sectors such as steel and metals production in Port Talbot and Scunthorpe, and vital industries. Glass, cement, steel and chemicals are the backbone of our manufacturing economy due to their high grade electricity usage. These sectors are particularly sensitive to increased electricity prices, and they employ around 400,000 workers and contributed 30 billion in gross added value in 2019, representing 1.5% of our national economy. These are indispensable to maintaining a resilient manufacturing base across the UK, and that is why the government provides relief to over 500 companies in these industries, supporting them with increased industrial electricity prices due to the increased renewable policy costs.

We do this through two key mechanisms the British Industry Supercharger and the IRA Compensation Scheme. These programmes ensure that our energy policy does not deter investment or production in the United Kingdom, and it keeps electricity prices competitive compared to international competitors and ensures that thousands of British jobs are safeguarded as part of our modern industrial strategy. As part of what.

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Was announced. As part of our modern industrial strategy, the British government's strategy, the British government's aim. I'm aware there are many questions. All of us, I guarantee, will respond to them in full in writing. As part of our modern writing. As part of our modern industrial strategy, the government has proposed deepening the support provided by our industrial British provided by our industrial British industry supercharger by increasing the level of network, charging compensation from 60% to 90% by 2026.

We have consulted on this proposal and will respond in more proposal and will respond in more detail in due course. My Lord, this government remains steadfast in its commitment to ensuring our energy intensive industries are not disadvantaged by a transition to net zero. We will continue to support zero. We will continue to support these sectors, which are not only vital to our economy, but also to our national resilience and our prosperity. So the question of prosperity. So the question of global excess capacity and market distorting practices by China, raised by Lord Lord Mohammed, Lord raised by Lord Lord Mohammed, Lord Burma and Lord Liddell as my Noble friend Lord Baroness Hooper set out friend Lord Baroness Hooper set out in her remarks, we are calling out the practice of some countries choosing to flood the market with cheap steel in a bid to quash cheap steel in a bid to quash healthy competition.

She joined ministers from Partner Cancer, the global former forum on steel excess capacity in South Africa, earlier this month, and the UK has lobbied hard to develop a comprehensive framework for joint action to redress global steel excess capacity by June of next year. The noble Lord Hunt has asked about discussions with the WTO specifically, and the UK regularly challenges China's market distorting practices during bilateral meetings at the at the WTO Subsidy Committee and other settings. Now to the topic of US tariffs and EU and US tariffs raised by Lord Brahma, Lord Murphy and Lord little.

The first point to make is that the government wants to everything it can to mitigate the impacts of tariffs raised by international partners. The UK will always defend its critical steel industry where required, and we will continue to explore stronger trade measures to protect UK steel producers from unfair behaviours. In relation to recent announcement by the EU on a proposed new steel trade measures on imports to replace the current steel safeguard, we are in close contact with the European Commission to understand the details of this proposal.

This decision was not targeted at the UK, but would be highly concerned if many of the steel producers and their workers, as we have been meeting with steel industry to understand its impacts. As ever, this government is committed to defending our critical steel industry. Moreover, thanks to the strength of the UK, US partnership, the UK steel, the UK remains the only country to benefit from a preferential 25% tariff on steel and aluminium on all of our exports to the US, avoiding that global tariff of 50%, which is reinforcing the UK's position as a trusted source of high quality steel and aluminium.

We have already committed up to 2.5 billion of investment, including through the National Wealth Fund, to rebuild the steel industry and continue to explore stronger trade measures to protect the UK steel producers. The UK has a robust trade defence system in place, including the UK's existing steel safeguard measures, and whilst the UK Steel safeguard will expire in June of 2006, in line with the WTO WTO rules, we have to call for evidence from the 26th of June, 7th of August to gather stakeholder views on the future policy options, and we are keeping all options under review to defend our critical industry as set out in the trade strategy, the international trading landscape has rapidly changed and we are sharpening our toolkit to respond to these increased threats.

Some of the points that Lord Fox made, and I will have to write into him personally on many of them I can call concur with the noble Lords views on the fact that our families and communities should be at the heart of this debate. I would remind the House that present there are proposals, and that we will not be drawn on the UK's response to EU tariffs, but we will continue to take a call headed approach. In referring to the Steel Council, the council has met on three occasions in January, April and July.

In the next meeting is scheduled for the 4th of November. And to the question of our relationship with Jingye, the government is engaged in a constructive dialogue with Jingye in line with our commitment to a pragmatic commercial solution. So I noble Lords in closing, I just want to reiterate my thanks to all of you that spoken into bass in today's debate. I want to convey my appreciation for your valuable contribution and insights, and thank you for your generosity in allowing me to give written responses to many of the questions, particularly those tabled at the end.

Anything we have missed, we guarantee we will provide written answers. Baroness Lloyd and I have set out the governments long term vision for a strong, resilient, productive steel industry in this country, one that is primed for long term success, driving growth in the communities that depend on our steel industry and help build it. The same communities that I spoke about in my opening remarks, this government wants them to feel and see the benefits of our plan for change. The Decade of National Review. We know that we promised, and I look forward to working with the noble Lords in

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the ambition. Thank you. For the question. Is that. This. Motion be agreed to, as many as

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Motion be agreed to, as many as are that opinion will say. Content a country not content.

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The contents of it. my Lords in moving that the House to now adjourn. I congratulate my to now adjourn. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Stockwood, on a truly excellent maiden speech. I was honoured to be one of my Noble friends supporters when he came into the House only a week ago. I Noble friend has an extensive and friend has an extensive and successful business career and will be of great benefit to the government in important work we now government in important work we now do as Minister for investment.

He has achieved much in his business career, but as my Noble friend said, career, but as my Noble friend said, being the Chair of Grimsby Town Football Club when they beat Manchester United 1211 on penalties, knocking him out of the League Cup, was a momentous day for him. Even was a momentous day for him. Even living in Great Grimsby. I watched my Noble friend give many TV interviews all the following day. I interviews all the following day. I wish my noble friend well in his new role.

I look forward to hearing him many more times in the future. With

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many more times in the future. With that. Too big to move the House to now adjourn. The House.

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Do now adjourn.

14:19

Lord Rook (Labour)

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14:26

Lord Jamieson (Conservative)

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This debate has concluded

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