Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee
Monday 15th June 2026
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16:01
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Order. Order!Good afternoon. Colleagues, and usually meeting on a Monday. Um, so glad you could all make it for I believe, Cabinet Secretary, your first appearance before a select committee since your appointment. That's correct. So our first our first duty I suppose. Hopefully this is just to congratulate you on your appointment. The first woman to hold the role. And we wish you all. We wish you the very best of luck and good fortune.
Going forward. That's a nice bit dealt with. So, um, we'll kick it straight into questions if we if we may. You will have read Alcan's resignation letter. Of last week and I quote directly the machinery of government itself has been left to decay. Decisions that should take days take months. Departments fight each other instead of the problem. Officials and ministers who know the truth are not always rewarded for telling it. Is that a picture of government, both as Cabinet Secretary and as a former departmental permanent secretary, that you recognise or have any sympathy with?
Going forward. That's a nice bit dealt with. So, um, we'll kick it straight into questions if we if we may. You will have read Alcan's resignation letter. Of last week and I quote directly the machinery of government itself has been left to decay. Decisions that should take days take months. Departments fight each other instead of the problem. Officials and ministers who know the truth are not always rewarded for telling it. Is that a picture of government, both as Cabinet Secretary and as a former departmental permanent secretary, that you recognise or have any sympathy with?
16:02
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, first of all, may I say thanks to the committee for inviting me today?Um, I'm not going to comment on the specific comments of a letter from an outgoing minister to the Prime Minister. Um, obviously, I would say probably two things. Um, one is a lot of extremely complex business happens in government. The Prime Minister has explained that in this particular situation, it is requiring what he has called hard edged decisions, difficult trade offs. These are things that involve all government departments.
My job is to support the Prime Minister in running the effective machinery and and the collective agreement process. Um, so it's to be expected that sometimes these things take time. However, I am on record in my letter to the committee sent in advance of this session of saying that I do think there are things that need to be improved in terms of the machinery of government. I think in particular in terms of delivery. I think it's one of my top priorities to ensure that we are focused on delivery, that we're getting better at delivery, and that that delivery is sped up.
And as you may also have seen in my published objectives, I do think we need to have a look at the Cabinet Office and to ensure that it's reformed to be streamlined and more agile in that role. It has of overseeing the collective agreement process, which includes, of course, making speedy decisions that involve all government departments, which are often quite difficult because often there are disagreements. And my job is to ensure that the Prime Minister, when making those decisions, has all the correct information, evidence, analysis he needs to make them.
On the point about, uh, departments, how departments interact with each other. It is, of course, to be expected that government departments functionally organized government departments, have particular areas of focus. Their objectives are sometimes in tension. That's understood. That is the role of the Cabinet Secretariat to broker between those, uh, disagreements where there are some. And again, that can often take time.
My job is to support the Prime Minister in running the effective machinery and and the collective agreement process. Um, so it's to be expected that sometimes these things take time. However, I am on record in my letter to the committee sent in advance of this session of saying that I do think there are things that need to be improved in terms of the machinery of government. I think in particular in terms of delivery. I think it's one of my top priorities to ensure that we are focused on delivery, that we're getting better at delivery, and that that delivery is sped up.
And as you may also have seen in my published objectives, I do think we need to have a look at the Cabinet Office and to ensure that it's reformed to be streamlined and more agile in that role. It has of overseeing the collective agreement process, which includes, of course, making speedy decisions that involve all government departments, which are often quite difficult because often there are disagreements. And my job is to ensure that the Prime Minister, when making those decisions, has all the correct information, evidence, analysis he needs to make them.
On the point about, uh, departments, how departments interact with each other. It is, of course, to be expected that government departments functionally organized government departments, have particular areas of focus. Their objectives are sometimes in tension. That's understood. That is the role of the Cabinet Secretariat to broker between those, uh, disagreements where there are some. And again, that can often take time.
16:04
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So. In terms. So just walk us through, if you will, because. I think we all get that. And it's good to have creative tension and discussion rather than somebody just rolling over and having their tummy tickled at the first, you know, at the at the first request, you expect secretaries of state and ministers to stand and defend their turf. Just walk us through, if you will, not on a specific case, but but in the abstract, how does this government come to a decision that can secure collective cabinet responsibility when there are competing.
Voices, demands and policy pressures.
Voices, demands and policy pressures.
16:05
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So, I mean, the first thing to say is that the collective agreement process is, of course, one that's set out in the cabinet manual, but it is one that, as part of my looking at on behalf of the Prime Minister, the cabinet manual, I'll be looking at some of those issues around what needs to require right round in order to secure collective agreement, because collective agreement can be secured in a number of ways, including via a meeting, including via the right round process when, as currently set out, when a number of departments are engaged, when it might involve.
When a policy decision might involve a lot of public attract a lot of public attention or commentary, or where there are unresolved disagreements between departments that would normally engage a full right round process in advance of the right round, you would expect to be talking to departments about their issues, understanding fully the consequences of different options. And, as I say, my job and that of the Secretariat and the Cabinet Office, is to ensure that the implications of those choices are made. So when the Prime Minister makes that decision with his cabinet, if it's a full cabinet decision, he understands the implications of the various trade offs you.
When a policy decision might involve a lot of public attract a lot of public attention or commentary, or where there are unresolved disagreements between departments that would normally engage a full right round process in advance of the right round, you would expect to be talking to departments about their issues, understanding fully the consequences of different options. And, as I say, my job and that of the Secretariat and the Cabinet Office, is to ensure that the implications of those choices are made. So when the Prime Minister makes that decision with his cabinet, if it's a full cabinet decision, he understands the implications of the various trade offs you.
16:06
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Gave. In answer to my opening question. Um, a hint of your appetite to. Whilst maintaining probity. Um, streamline and speed up decision making process in order to aid manifest and tangible delivery. Are you a sort of John the Baptist in that?A lone voice crying in the wilderness?Or is the service behind you?
16:07
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I would say definitely the latter. One of the things that has most surprised me about starting in this job just under four months ago, is the absolute enthusiasm for change among a huge number of people in the civil service. So I have been writing to all staff and I've set out my future civil service programme, which I've noted to the committee in my letter, and I've had hundreds of emails from staff keen to engage, keen to get involved with strong views. They want us to be more agile.
They want us to be better at delivery. They want us to innovate. They want to have really strong pride in the service. And I should say, if I may, um, that what I have also seen that didn't surprise me is the sheer professionalism, expertise and commitment of the talented staff in the civil service, the entire country, every day relies on their work. I'm very grateful to them for that work, and it's nice to take the opportunity of being in front of the committee to say that often that work is unseen.
I think they do the hardest jobs in the country.
They want us to be better at delivery. They want us to innovate. They want to have really strong pride in the service. And I should say, if I may, um, that what I have also seen that didn't surprise me is the sheer professionalism, expertise and commitment of the talented staff in the civil service, the entire country, every day relies on their work. I'm very grateful to them for that work, and it's nice to take the opportunity of being in front of the committee to say that often that work is unseen.
I think they do the hardest jobs in the country.
16:08
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You've you've sort of slightly, um, preempted a question I was going to ask you, which is often it's the first 100 days or so, which is the most sort of energetic and focused. And people wish that the new officeholder. Well, etc.. What's the one thing that stands out to you as being the most pleasing thing?Surprisingly pleasing thing that you've noticed, uh, in. Those months and the corollary of which, of course, which is the thing which has come as the most devastatingly disappointing surprise to you, which you didn't think might require attention and does.
16:08
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, the first thing to say is that I hope my second 100 days and indeed, my, uh. First 1000 days will be as energetic as the first 100 days. Um, I mean, as I said, the most pleasing thing. Definitely appetite for change, enthusiasm and also wanting to engage. And that has been fantastic. Um, I think in terms of, I don't know why I describe it as a negative surprise, it's more the thing I'm most concerned about is our readiness as a service for the huge amount of technological change that is currently underway.
I don't think it's unique to the civil service, by the way, but I think it's something that I, as the head of the civil service and the whole of the top of the service, needs to take very seriously. Um, there's obviously, I mean, we essentially do two things in the civil service. We support the elected government in developing, developing and implementing their policies. And in delivering public services. And both of those two domains are going to be completely, radically rewritten by AI and technology.
I don't think it's unique to the civil service, by the way, but I think it's something that I, as the head of the civil service and the whole of the top of the service, needs to take very seriously. Um, there's obviously, I mean, we essentially do two things in the civil service. We support the elected government in developing, developing and implementing their policies. And in delivering public services. And both of those two domains are going to be completely, radically rewritten by AI and technology.
16:09
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
We will come on to AI and its role, um, I. I asked this question in the full cognisance of the fact that you are head of the Home Civil Service, but if one talks to civil servants at a variety of levels, they will often say, give us the clear, give us the clear direction, give us the milestones to monitor delivery, and we will crack on and do the job. If we look at Parliament, if we look at who gets appointed to be ministers, and this is not a party political point, it applies to all political parties.
It's a balancing act between left, right and centre wings of any political party in government. Sometimes round pegs get driven into square holes in the other way around. Quite a lot of people who are called to ministerial office have very limited experience of running anything or delivering change in any sector, be it public or private, is enough being done in your analysis to in order to speed up decision making and improve outcomes?What initiatives could be launched or sponsored to better prepare and improve ministers in the discharge of their duties in order to better hold civil servants to account in order to drive forward change?
It's a balancing act between left, right and centre wings of any political party in government. Sometimes round pegs get driven into square holes in the other way around. Quite a lot of people who are called to ministerial office have very limited experience of running anything or delivering change in any sector, be it public or private, is enough being done in your analysis to in order to speed up decision making and improve outcomes?What initiatives could be launched or sponsored to better prepare and improve ministers in the discharge of their duties in order to better hold civil servants to account in order to drive forward change?
16:11
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, so one of the things that we're setting up as part of a plan to build the capability in the civil service, is the National School for government. Um, it's not, uh, you know, beyond possibility that it should. The Prime Minister wants the National School for government also to be, uh, take on a role in, in offering training to ministers, then that could be done. I mean, do.
16:11
16:11
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, if the Prime Minister asked me to do it, I do it. Um, I think. the I think I mean, in a way what, what I would advise the Prime Minister on that. I probably wouldn't wouldn't think it would be right to share with the committee. I think it is obviously true to say that training and capability building is good in every sector, in every profession. So the more people can have um, training to build the skills, both in terms of, I mean, AI is something we're all going to need to be skilled in, but also in the role.
So for example, the ministerial code, how it applies. Um, these are things that could, that could be useful.
So for example, the ministerial code, how it applies. Um, these are things that could, that could be useful.
16:12
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
You a question of the Minister of Code. You'll be aware that this committee, at the request of the speaker some months ago, undertook a short appointed inquiry in the ministerial into the ministerial code code. Notwithstanding the Prime Minister's refresh of it, but with particular reference to important policy announcements being made to Parliament first, and you will know that, Mr. Speaker, has. Mr. Speaker's blood pressure has risen quite considerably on this issue over the last six, seven, eight months or so. A major announcement made today on social media.
We're not going to comment on that. The whys and wherefores or the benefit of it, etc.. But it is clearly a breach of the ministerial code. It's an important policy announcement, which was made before whilst Parliament was sitting, but not to Parliament. What advice is ever sought from the Prime Minister to you about meeting the requirements of the Ministerial code with respect to important policy announcements?
We're not going to comment on that. The whys and wherefores or the benefit of it, etc.. But it is clearly a breach of the ministerial code. It's an important policy announcement, which was made before whilst Parliament was sitting, but not to Parliament. What advice is ever sought from the Prime Minister to you about meeting the requirements of the Ministerial code with respect to important policy announcements?
16:13
16:13
16:13
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
No. We've written we have responded to you a couple of weeks ago to say that we're updating that bit of the code, because I think the the view would be that there's no point having something in a code that routinely, for other reasons which have post-dated the code have come to pass. So I think the particular line in the code, I think is chapter nine that you're referring to. We have committed specifically to update. I'm also updating the cabinet manual on behalf of the Prime Minister and indeed the Civil Service Code.
16:14
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16:14
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Or in the process of updating it?I think it's what actually the exact language of the code, which I don't have to hand, but perhaps somebody might do, is that at the earliest opportunity?If when at the first possible opportunity it's brought to Parliament, and as I understand it, there is going to be an oral statement today on that particular question.
16:15
16:15
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, somebody would first of all, I should say, as the committee knows, it's for the Prime ministers to judge whether or not the code has been breached. So it wouldn't be for me to comment on whether the ministerial code has been breached or not to the committee, but I would I mean, if someone has the language of chapter nine, I'm sure we could pass it.
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16:17
Speaker 3
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Speaker 3
So is that a recognition?Sorry, I don't mean to be pursuing this at this point, but it's a recognition that the code's not not working just now or the codes, the how the government's code needs to be doesn't. So the government is not conducting itself in in a way that matches the the intention and the black and white letter of the law. In terms of the code just now.
16:17
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16:19
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
Joining us. It's a it's a warm room. Thank you. Um let us turn I think now to Mr. Baker. I think Mr. Baker or. AM I going to. To forgive. Me my Mr. Chair, Richard. Dame Antonia, thanks for coming along. Um, you mentioned your performance objectives earlier, which you've published, and that's quite an unusual step for a cabinet secretary to do so. Why?Why have you taken that step to publish them?
16:20
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, I it's not that unusual. It's just been unusual for the past ten years. So in the history of, uh, of cabinet secretaries, um, maybe not that unusual. The last one I think to publish it was Jeremy Heywood about a decade ago. I just think it's really important for transparency and accountability. And I discussed it with the Prime Minister. Um, and obviously he sets my objectives because I'm accountable to him. And we agreed that it would be sensible to publish them.
One of the things that I have identified that we need to improve in the civil service is accountability, direct line accountability for delivery of objectives, but also for everything that the government is doing. Um, and the first step on that accountability starts at the top. So if I publish my objectives, those I want to be reflected, everything that I do should in a way be reflected within, uh, some what the permanent secretaries do and then down through the system. So we're all actually aligned and accountability is clear.
One of the things that I have identified that we need to improve in the civil service is accountability, direct line accountability for delivery of objectives, but also for everything that the government is doing. Um, and the first step on that accountability starts at the top. So if I publish my objectives, those I want to be reflected, everything that I do should in a way be reflected within, uh, some what the permanent secretaries do and then down through the system. So we're all actually aligned and accountability is clear.
16:22
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16:22
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
The process is the government lead. Non-Executive plays a role because they seek feedback from a range of stakeholders. They will then give me a. I suppose annual review. Um, but then I would also expect to have a conversation with the Prime Minister and he'll doubtless give me feedback against my objectives.
16:23
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And you said it's not that unusual, but it's sort of a decade since performance objectives have been published. You'll be aware of the accusations that it's a bit of a land grab for the usurping power from ministers. Do you agree with that?And do you think that actually taking some of the power from ministers is the only answer to actually make the changes you wish for?
16:23
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So my job is to serve the Prime Minister and the government?I'm completely clear about that. I think that's also very clear in my objectives. Um, and everything that I do is is in support of the Prime Minister and the government. I don't have any power to change the Constitution. I advise the Prime Minister. Um, so in a way, setting out the things clarity on what I think I should be spending my time on, what I am spending my time on, as agreed with the Prime Minister in support of his agenda, seems to me to be a good thing.
16:24
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And so, as head of the Civil Service, you recognise that, uh, reportedly there are tensions, I think would be fair to say, between ministers and officials. Do you think you're putting your performance objectives is a way to head off that tension, or do you not agree that there is a tension and disagreement?
16:24
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I don't think that. I mean, I don't think I do agree that there's a tension particularly, um, I think the, you know, the civil service serves the government and delivers direct public services. I can't imagine that publishing that transparency around what one's trying to do, uh, could in any way have any impact on that really. Um, I have to say in now and in every role I have, I have worked with, I've been in Parliament for nine years before this job. Um, there's always been excellent relations between the civil service and secretaries of state.
And um, I should say also that if you actually ask often there's kind of noise around, but actually if you ask the people doing the jobs, they say relationships are great.
And um, I should say also that if you actually ask often there's kind of noise around, but actually if you ask the people doing the jobs, they say relationships are great.
16:25
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
So why do you think it is so often reported?Because it's almost the default is, you know, read any report and maybe we should blame journalists, but it's always the tensions between minister and department or officials. Why do you think that is?What do you think. Because you're probably quite right. If I was to walk out and say to civil service, how is it going?They say difficult, but it's okay. Why do you think that is such an easy go to?
16:26
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I suppose perhaps there's sometimes a lack of clarity over who's doing what and actually what the role is. I think the civil service. I mean, I'm entirely clear of what the role of the civil service is. And civil servants need to follow the code. And that's entirely clear as well. I mean, there's signal noise, isn't there?I mean, you know, what's the signal?The signal is we've got to get a better at delivery at innovation.
I want to build up pride and trust. Those are the things I'm focusing my time on. And that is all in the service of the Prime Minister and the government.
I want to build up pride and trust. Those are the things I'm focusing my time on. And that is all in the service of the Prime Minister and the government.
16:27
16:27
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, I mean, there's a raft of things, but I suppose on delivery, I think, well, I'm sorting out accountability. I would I would probably focus on capability as the thing where there is the biggest gap between. Achieving something as soon as possible and how long I think it's actually going to take. There's a raft of other things as well. I mean, we've got the delivery unit, the number ten delivery unit. We've now got clarity over the PM's top priorities.
They're busy. Uh, you know, focusing on those and ensuring that we're kind of making those trade offs as referred to previously and getting blocks out the way for delivery. But that would probably be it. And then in terms of I actually put this in, in kind of the pride bucket in my head about the, in terms of my future civil service programme, um, which is led by the permanent secretaries. Um, but performance management is also performance management and talent management are also top priorities, but happy to go into all of that.
They're busy. Uh, you know, focusing on those and ensuring that we're kind of making those trade offs as referred to previously and getting blocks out the way for delivery. But that would probably be it. And then in terms of I actually put this in, in kind of the pride bucket in my head about the, in terms of my future civil service programme, um, which is led by the permanent secretaries. Um, but performance management is also performance management and talent management are also top priorities, but happy to go into all of that.
16:28
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Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
There's no I think there's often been a delivery unit. I mean, there's there's been very delivery units in various different guises. The question is, what's it doing?What's it focusing on?The thing that I'm really keen that the delivery unit does, which I think they're doing really well, is uses data. They've got like a data informed approach to actually really understand. I mean, they've got a really fantastic dashboard that I'm hoping that one day would, in principle, in one day could be something that could be public.
So you can actually see where government is on delivering things that it said it would do.
So you can actually see where government is on delivering things that it said it would do.
16:29
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, I mean, obviously always have objectives. So in the past, I mean, I've been setting my objectives for years with my secretary of state. And you might talk to your Secretary of State about it, or you'd talk to your lead non-exec about it. What now I'm trying to do is to ensure, as agreed with the Prime Minister, there's a direct relationship between the Prime Minister's priorities and therefore the top of government's priorities. And what the machine is doing. And the Prime Minister, I think it was in front of liaison Committee, talked about pulling levers and those levers not being connected, uh, sort of closely enough to things.
I feel it's my job to ensure those levers are connected, um, closely to what's happening in the machine. And that has got to flow through the system. So obviously, you know, objectives. I mean, you know, everybody kind of has objectives. Writing the objectives is not the hard thing. Making those objectives highly relevant, connected with the priorities. And then also picking out some things that I just think all departments need to do. So for example, I think every department needs to have a fully, uh, plan for fully ramping up AI.
And I think this needs to sit alongside the strategic workforce plan. Um, so we had, as you all know, we were developing a strategic workforce plan, but it wasn't really sitting closely enough to where to what our thinking is over how AI and technology are going to change the shape of the service. And I think that's going to be significant. I know we're coming on to AI later, but it is very relevant to almost every question. But the ensuring that departments have those plans, this is something that needs to be specifically put in, put in objectives.
And the Perm six all very enthusiastic about that.
I feel it's my job to ensure those levers are connected, um, closely to what's happening in the machine. And that has got to flow through the system. So obviously, you know, objectives. I mean, you know, everybody kind of has objectives. Writing the objectives is not the hard thing. Making those objectives highly relevant, connected with the priorities. And then also picking out some things that I just think all departments need to do. So for example, I think every department needs to have a fully, uh, plan for fully ramping up AI.
And I think this needs to sit alongside the strategic workforce plan. Um, so we had, as you all know, we were developing a strategic workforce plan, but it wasn't really sitting closely enough to where to what our thinking is over how AI and technology are going to change the shape of the service. And I think that's going to be significant. I know we're coming on to AI later, but it is very relevant to almost every question. But the ensuring that departments have those plans, this is something that needs to be specifically put in, put in objectives.
And the Perm six all very enthusiastic about that.
16:30
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And so, I mean, great. You know, anybody that's worked in private industry will be sort of a guess that this isn't always already the case. Do you think permanent secretaries that don't deliver on those objectives should be removed from their roles, or is that just going to cause a bigger problem?Because you can see, you know, the outside, the normal world will say great objectives, fantastic. But at the end of year two, where are we?You know, what's happening?
16:30
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, look, I mean, I'm an economist, right?So incentives are at the forefront of everything. And what would be the direct result of that would be the objectives will perhaps there would be an incentive to go for the easy objective, shall we say, rather than the harder objectives. I'm interested in being ambitious. I want to drive change. I want to make things happen. So I want people having, uh, stretch objectives and stretch targets. And I should say that on the in the list of the kind of PM's top priorities, some of those objectives are pretty stretching and some I mean, obviously some targets are being, um, well hit by the government and, you know, NHS electives lists have been come down ahead of trajectory ahead of trajectory.
And um and on recruitment of neighbourhood officers, for example, the first year by the Home Office when the police was ahead of plan. But there'll also be areas where things are slightly behind plan. And I don't think you want to be in a situation where you're saying, oh, well, sorry, you missed the you missed the number because we set you a really, um, a really ambitious target. It's a conversation. I mean, look, I'm interested in having a proper professional conversation about how we together are going to significantly change how the civil service works, significantly improved delivery innovation and drive up pride.
And that means I want everyone to be leaning in and make it happen and be ambitious. And that means signing up to ambitious objectives, which, by the way, they all have, because they all want change as much as I do.
And um and on recruitment of neighbourhood officers, for example, the first year by the Home Office when the police was ahead of plan. But there'll also be areas where things are slightly behind plan. And I don't think you want to be in a situation where you're saying, oh, well, sorry, you missed the you missed the number because we set you a really, um, a really ambitious target. It's a conversation. I mean, look, I'm interested in having a proper professional conversation about how we together are going to significantly change how the civil service works, significantly improved delivery innovation and drive up pride.
And that means I want everyone to be leaning in and make it happen and be ambitious. And that means signing up to ambitious objectives, which, by the way, they all have, because they all want change as much as I do.
16:30
Speaker 1
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Speaker 1
And, well, there's two questions in one is that the modern world we live in means that everyone outside of this postcode is very impatient for change. And you know, you can, you can argue till you're blue in the face with the average person explaining why things are so slow. What are your views on the setting up of an office for the Prime Minister, which would be allowed to be political and help with the delivery of those objectives?
16:30
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, look, in aforementioned published objectives, I've said that I think that we need to look at strengthening the delivery architecture around the Prime Minister and reforming the Cabinet Office to be more streamlined. Um, obviously there's a number of options. I mean, I've had I've read as many papers as I've had hot dinners on different ways one could organize the centre. This is something I would this would be a decision for the Prime Minister. Um, it's something that I would discuss with him.
16:30
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
There must be some philosophical. You know um. We now have performance frameworks. We've got the Prime Minister's delivery unit. We had um much. Of and now never referenced mission government which was all going to be cross siloed and a new model for the Treasury to operate to. Darren Jones is made chief secretary to the Prime Minister to effectively act as the Prime Minister's voice across government. Now, he may have made some progress.
But the creation of office of the Prime Minister. Surely if we're trying to run a mature democracy with all of the international and national challenges that we have, it's pretty bonkers in this day and age that we haven't got that. The Cabinet Office is the sort of de facto, but not de Uray office of the. Prime Minister, there should be one, shouldn't they?
But the creation of office of the Prime Minister. Surely if we're trying to run a mature democracy with all of the international and national challenges that we have, it's pretty bonkers in this day and age that we haven't got that. The Cabinet Office is the sort of de facto, but not de Uray office of the. Prime Minister, there should be one, shouldn't they?
16:30
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well, there's Downing Street. I mean, you know, there's different ways of structuring it. My own personal view, by the way, is the single most important thing is the quality of the people. And structures. I've worked in the civil service for 25 years, and I've worked in lots of different structures. I'm not saying structural change isn't important or can't help. I just think the key thing is the exceptional quality of the people. Um.
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Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Can I just because I mean, famously, the Prime Minister said not that long into his tenure that he thought the civil service was sitting in a tepid bath. I don't know whether the water has got warmer in the intervening period or colder, but if you could act as a thermometer on that and tell us what you think the temperature of the bath is, because you have told us that permanent secretaries are hungry for change. But there's been a common theme in the hearings that we've had heard in this committee is the silo ization of government.
The permanent secretaries effectively run as a chief executive, the Secretary of State is the chairman of the board, and so on and so forth. If they are so hungry for change, and if that model of effectively an independent, siloed department operating, um, in isolation. Why haven't they been sating their hunger?Why haven't they just got on with it and delivered the change that they're hungry for.
The permanent secretaries effectively run as a chief executive, the Secretary of State is the chairman of the board, and so on and so forth. If they are so hungry for change, and if that model of effectively an independent, siloed department operating, um, in isolation. Why haven't they been sating their hunger?Why haven't they just got on with it and delivered the change that they're hungry for.
18:40
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
Well I think there's two things there. I mean one is obviously a lot of change is already happening. A lot of permanent secretaries are changing things in their departments, improving things, uh, delivering for their secretary of state and indeed for the PM. Um, the, what I'm talking about is a big coherent programme of change at this unprecedented moment in, uh, in technological change and indeed a lot of global uncertainty and volatility that I think means we have a moment right now where we have to go much further, much faster.
And I think there's a huge appetite to do that. And as I say, the permanent secretaries are leading this programme of work. So they'll be leading cross-government things on delivery or on innovation or on pride, or they'll be overseeing capability reviews, for example. Um, so there's a whole you're quite right, chair, that we've got to operate more collectively. I mean, we could talk about, we could debate the model of the kind of Haldane model of functional organisations of departments and the accounting officer.
You know, responsibility directly to Parliament. You've always got to have the structural change somewhere. I used to work in the criminal justice system. That is a classic example of a system where it's across a range of departments and organisations. What's really important is the ways in which you can work across the silos, not getting bogged down in silos. And I think quite a lot of that is about an attitude.
And I think there's a huge appetite to do that. And as I say, the permanent secretaries are leading this programme of work. So they'll be leading cross-government things on delivery or on innovation or on pride, or they'll be overseeing capability reviews, for example. Um, so there's a whole you're quite right, chair, that we've got to operate more collectively. I mean, we could talk about, we could debate the model of the kind of Haldane model of functional organisations of departments and the accounting officer.
You know, responsibility directly to Parliament. You've always got to have the structural change somewhere. I used to work in the criminal justice system. That is a classic example of a system where it's across a range of departments and organisations. What's really important is the ways in which you can work across the silos, not getting bogged down in silos. And I think quite a lot of that is about an attitude.
18:40
Speaker 6
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Speaker 6
Can I make a helpful. I mean, all of this committee suggestions are helpful, of course, but this is a particularly helpful one. You see. Sometimes people, I mean, of course, are fearful of change because they don't quite know where it's going to end up. And you've got the AI challenge and we will come on to AI. You've referenced in response to questions from Mr. Quigley, myself, um, permanent secretaries are getting on and delivering change, so on and so forth.
What's your. Strategy for. Picking those out, cherry picking the best ones out and really sort of case studying them both for the public, for Parliament and for civil servants. Because one can talk in the abstract, hungry for change, committed to change, fit for the 21st century, etc. and they are abstract concepts. We all think we know what they mean, but they're all very different. We might have different interpretations, but this is a good example of change. Everybody can learn from it because it can be applied across the piece.
It didn't result in the sky falling on anybody's head. It worked. What's your. For identifying and highlighting. To give confidence.
What's your. Strategy for. Picking those out, cherry picking the best ones out and really sort of case studying them both for the public, for Parliament and for civil servants. Because one can talk in the abstract, hungry for change, committed to change, fit for the 21st century, etc. and they are abstract concepts. We all think we know what they mean, but they're all very different. We might have different interpretations, but this is a good example of change. Everybody can learn from it because it can be applied across the piece.
It didn't result in the sky falling on anybody's head. It worked. What's your. For identifying and highlighting. To give confidence.
18:40
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
So it's a great question. I think at the moment we're doing a lot of best practice identification and sharing at permanent secretary level. So we spend a lot of time together talking. I mean, sorry to keep coming back to AI, but that's a particular example where innovation more broadly actually, um, what are the lessons we can learn?How can we benefit from each other's experience?Um, we do put that information out to the civil service. I mean, there's a civil service newsletter, there are things like that where we talk about best practices that teams have done because we're also trying to spotlight.
A lot of this is about building pride in the service, right?So we're trying to spotlight great work where it happens and as well as learning the lessons and benefiting from the best practice. It's about making people feel absolutely terrific about the contribution that they have made to the country. Um, so we do that. I haven't really thought about, um, how we could get better at doing that. Um, perhaps to, I think you mentioned Parliament and the public. I think those are interesting questions.
And part of I mean, I would say that whenever ministers, of course, are talking about exceptional work or great things that have been delivered, behind that will sit a huge number of civil servants who've been diligently working on that and delivering as well. So perhaps it's just a way of, uh, encouraging people to see that this is part of the civil service contribution as well.
A lot of this is about building pride in the service, right?So we're trying to spotlight great work where it happens and as well as learning the lessons and benefiting from the best practice. It's about making people feel absolutely terrific about the contribution that they have made to the country. Um, so we do that. I haven't really thought about, um, how we could get better at doing that. Um, perhaps to, I think you mentioned Parliament and the public. I think those are interesting questions.
And part of I mean, I would say that whenever ministers, of course, are talking about exceptional work or great things that have been delivered, behind that will sit a huge number of civil servants who've been diligently working on that and delivering as well. So perhaps it's just a way of, uh, encouraging people to see that this is part of the civil service contribution as well.
18:40
18:40
Speaker 2
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Speaker 2
I've got to say. I find I mean, the Treasury are. I wouldn't describe them as a handbrake actually. I think that they hegghammer. They've got a very, they've got a very particular role. And so inevitably I mean this is more the case in previous roles where I've been trying to do things that perhaps cost more money. Um, and, and the Treasury have got their very particular role that they're playing, but rightly so. I mean, it's way it's one of the things I was describing earlier about different, um, different departments having different roles.
I do think that the, the Cabinet Office, the centre of government, the kind of core of the Cabinet Office, so especially the Secretariat and the Treasury have to work incredibly closely together, um, on everything.
I do think that the, the Cabinet Office, the centre of government, the kind of core of the Cabinet Office, so especially the Secretariat and the Treasury have to work incredibly closely together, um, on everything.